Hot/"ramadan" Answer

[Nun de plume]

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For lovely images of cloud cover please visit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsoon

Enjoy a fast-free system

Salaam Siki et al,

Yes, enjoy a fast free system and make sure a divorce happens right after a full moon so women in semi-menopause or 20% of women (puberty to menopause) who do not menstruate UNSURE as to reason and you are suspicious if they are pregnant wait THREE months (12 weeks or first trimester) and not only TWO months before a full moon.

http://www.babycenter.com/slideshow-baby-size






In addition, if anyone commits the below make sure it?s before a full moon so they fast only ONE month and not the required TWO MONTHS!

4:92? so who does not find, so fasting two months following each other, a repentance from at God, and God is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.

[siki]

Salaam Siki,

You can then look forward to fast-free time, July being the month of monsoons in the Indian sub continent and a thick cloud cover is likely absolve you from any obligation to fast. Smile ,another reason to welcome Monsoons.

My dear Farida and Nun

salam,


" Who so ever witnesses"  If one has to literly witness the moon for fasting, then the same applies for sighting the cresent (Ahilla).  And let me tell you that if the metrological conditions are not favorable , there is still a fair chance that one can make out the full moon , but sighting the cresent moon is not  possible.

But why are we getting in to this ? we dont have to, nor is the blind man excused. The word witness simply ensures that whe all fast in the hottest possible, and for the longest duration, weather we live in the Northren hemisphere or down under.

And as the mankind has better tools avaiable to pin point Red moon at every Lat and Long, so a calender can be made for every region.


By the way,  July days are longest, hottest,    and very humid , and  I guess I have managed to get my fasting stuck around this month for the rest of my life .

peace

siki

[farida]

My dear Farida and Nun

salam,
" Who so ever witnesses"  If one has to literally witness the moon for fasting, then the same applies for sighting the crescent (Ahilla).  And let me tell you that if the metrological conditions are not favorable , there is still a fair chance that one can make out the full moon , but sighting the cresent moon is not  possible.
siki

Salaam Siki,
I/we do not believe in the literal sighting of the moon as a basis for fasting. Otherwise we would be excluding, not only the blind, but also the partial sighted, actually we are satisfied with the crescent as a marker for the beginning of a month. even web/satellite viewing would do.
The example of a crescent is like a person born and a full moon is the state of his prime and then comes the decline towards old age. 

But why are we getting in to this ? we dont have to, nor is the blind man excused. The word witness simply ensures that whe all fast in the hottest possible, and for the longest duration, weather we live in the Northren hemisphere or down under
And as the mankind has better tools avaiable to pin point Red moon at every Lat and Long, so a calender can be made for every region..

Try telling this to Ayman and his team and also Umme Tariq and Truth seeker!  who" Despite being new you have contributed positively and have given this subject a refreshing lift with mature and logical comprehension."   

By the way,  July days are longest, hottest,    and very humid , and  I guess I have managed to get my fasting stuck around this month for the rest of my life .

Why very humid


Ps: I hope Nun can adress your Red moon suggestion.

[truthseeker11]

Peace Umm Tariq and Ayman,

However, since this part of the verse ends with 'ajalahunna an yadana hamlahunna', those who didn't/ haven't menstruated may not be pregnant so they have no 'haml', so how long would they really wait?

That is exactly my question too. The words are "yada'na hamlahunna" meaning "they deliver their burdens/pregnancy" which signifies an EVENT and not a TIME PERIOD. It cannot be interpreted as "gestation period".

Why can't "lam yahidna" mean those who never had menstruation (primary amenorrhea)?

[truthseeker11]

Peace Siki,

Umme Tariq and Truth seeker!   Despite being new you have contributed positively and have given this subject a refreshing lift with mature and logical comprehension.

Thank you for the kind and positive words. May The God guide us all to the truth.

[truthseeker11]

Peace everyone,

It seams that Ayman and his sect are trying to cover up the Truth that I posted regarding the Month calculation in the Bible and Torah. the following is a Quotion from http://www.crivoice.org/calendar.html, which shows that God always wanted the True Submitter to calculate the Month using the Moon Cycel:

The system of keeping time in the Old Testament was based on the cycles of the moon rather than a solar calendar like we use today. In fact, the Hebrew term for "month," chodesh, means "new [moon]," referring to the new moon that began the month. The lunar cycle played a significant role in the cultural and religious life in ancient Israel so that time could be counted by the cycles of the moon (Ex. 19:1). The New Moon was a festival day, observed by burnt offering and sacrifices as well as banquets (Num 29:6, 1 Sam 20:5, 1 Chron 23:31). The New Moon festival was often listed along with Sabbath as an important religious observance (2 Kings 4:23, Ezek 45:17). Like Sabbath and other rituals, it also came to symbolize empty and self-centered religion when not accompanied by faithfulness to God in other areas (Isa. 1:14, Amos 8:5). Likewise, the middle of the month or the Full Moon was an important marker of the passing of time. Two of Israel?s most important festivals fell in mid-month (Passover, Tabernacles; cf. Psa 81:3).

Now; it seams that Ayman and his followers are rejecting the Quran, the Bible, and the Torah.

By the way Truthseeker1, I'm still waiting for you to post the weather trend in "Madena" as you did for Mecca.

Firstly, I never referenced any website about Mecca's weather
Secondly, I did reference a website about Medina's weather. It is not my fault that Belal cannot see it.

I have no cure for spiritual inability to see 

Logical fallacies in Belal's post:

Appeal to tradition: where a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it has a long-standing tradition behind it
Argumentum ad populum ("appeal to belief", "appeal to the majority", "appeal to the people"): where a proposition is claimed to be true solely because many people believe it to be true
Bare assertion fallacy: premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.
Package-deal fallacy: when two or more things have been linked together by tradition or culture are said to stay that way forever
Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam)
Begging the question ("petitio principii"): where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
False attribution: when an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument.
Cherry picking: the act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.

we are satisfied with the crescent as a marker for the beginning of a month.

Two questions:

1. WHICH crescent (waxing or waning) is to be used to begin fasting per The Quran?
2. WHEN does that crescent occur during a year in relation to fasting per The Quran?

[truthseeker11]

Peace Samia, others,

This is my understanding of verse 65:4:

I think the first part is clear: Those who are desperate of menustration have their 3idda three full moons. (If you are in doubt) covers those who are semi menopausal, i.e those who start to have spaced menustrations (e.g every 4 or 6 months or even more spaced).

The second part covers pregnant women, whether they stopped menustrating during their pregnancy or continue to have their periods. So, even if a woman has her menses during her pregnancy, she will still have her 3idda by giving birth and not by counting three menses.  Taking (those who did not have their menses) as those who did not have their menses yet is illogical, because the verse says their 3idda is by giving birth. What if she was not pregnant?

So we have two categories of women:
1- Definite menopausal and semi menopausal = 3 full moons.
2- Pregnant whether menustarting during their pregnancy or not = delivery

Thank you Samia for your understanding. This is the same as my initial understanding.

I think the two groups are:

1. Waallaee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum (those women who have despaired/given up from the menstruation, if you are doubtful). This would include all the women who have stopped menstruating because of menopause or other reasons excluding pregnancy but "you" are doubtful as to whether "they" have actually stopped menstruating due to those reasons.
2. Waallaee lam yahidna wa olatual ahmali (those who haven't menstruated and are pregnant). This would include all those women who were menstruating regularly but haven't menstruated since divorce due to pregnancy.

Please not that "waallaee" separates the two groups and there is no "waallaee" between "lam yahidna" and "olatual ahmali".

Let me give an example:

If I say to a class: "Those students who are tall and are wearing a white shirt, stand up", I will mean those students who are tall as well as wearing white shirt, i.e. they have to fulfil both criteria.

If I had meant all tall students and all those wearing white shirt (including the ones who are not tall), I would have said: "Those students who are tall and those who are wearing a white shirt", i.e. I would have used two "waallaee".

"Lam yahidna wa olatual ahmali" would mean "Those who haven't menstruated AS WELL AS are pregnant".

"Lam yahidna" cannot mean those who never had menstruation because then it will create a logical contradiction with "yada'na hamlahunna". Therefore, the women who never menstruated (primary amenorrhea) will be excluded and will have no interim because it is certain that they are not pregnant and it is certain that they don't have menstruations.

The words are "yada'na hamlahunna" meaning "they deliver their burdens/fetuses" which signifies an EVENT and not a TIME PERIOD. It cannot be interpreted as "gestation period".

[Samia]

But what does "desperate" really mean? They (the women) are desperate of menstruation tells me that they completely gave up. So they don't think they will ever have any menstruation (whether in 4, 6, or 100 months). "If you are in doubt" is not saying that the women themselves are in doubt. If the women thought that they might get the menstruation every 4 or 6 months as you say then they wouldn't be "despaired of menstruation". Also, in this case waiting for the count of three full-moons doesn't accomplish anything. Since they could very well be pregnant. Absent of a pregnancy test, the only way to know if they are pregnant or not is if they start showing the signs of pregnancy which may not necessarily appear within the three full-moons or even longer.

Logically, the only way to guarantee that those women are not pregnant is to either wait for three menstruations or the gestation period, whichever comes first. This leads me to your next point.

Salaam Ayman

You're right in the underlined part, my mistake. But still I have another understanding. Maybe it is those women who make believe they are still menustrating, but because, say, of their age, you are in doubt; or they bleed for another reason. Since we have two ways in the verse to count the 3idda, we have to exclude these women from the possibility of being pregnant.

I think that "women who didn't menstruate" refers to those women who didn't menstruate for any reason (known or unkown) since the time of the divorce. In this case, it is not known if she has amenorrhea or if she is semi menopausal or actually became menopause and the key is that unlike the first group, this woman hasn't DESPAIRED of menstruation.

Why would she wait until delivery? How long before she finds she was not pregnant?

As I understand, there are two groups: Those who can't be pregnant (menopausal and those who believe they are not but we doubt that) and those who are pregnant (those who have their menustrations stop during pregnancy and those who continue their menustartion during pregnancy).

[belH]

Current debate has certainly helped me cross a threshold where , if i have to pick purely on evidence (only God knows the truth) , I would change to fasting in the summers after the Red Moon.

Even after knowing that the Quran, the Bible and the Torah are calling for Luner Year?
But, it is your Free-well to choose; but I will be witnessing aginest you in the Judgment Day. See you there

[Umm Tariq]

Peace Belalhammad,

I don't want to get into a big discussion but what if I told you that there are Christians who believe that the real message in the Bible points to a luni-solar calendar as well and it's 'tradition' that said otherwise?  http://www.4angelspublications.com/lunisoloar.html 
They are also considered 'nuts' by 'traditionalists'.  You can debate with them if you like.  Anyway, the reading is 'muhaiman' over what is before it and there are known falsehoods in these books as they are now so we know to reject those falsehoods only based on the reading.  We believe that initially they were sent from Allah, His books, but we know that they have been corrupted, hence, the need and mercy for our Lord to send us this book and then promise to protect this message.  One of the women is a very nice lady, I consider her a believer since she says that she believes Muhammad was a prophet and that the 'quran' is from the god.  She is still studying and I hope you don't offend her.

Umm Tariq