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Community Needs => Islamic Calendar & Ramadhan. => Topic started by: ayman on November 20, 2004, 08:55:00 AM

Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 20, 2004, 08:55:00 AM
Every year, a common occurrence is a dispute between followers of various sects about when so-called Ramadan starts and ends. This year is no exception and some countries ended their so-called Ramadan one day before others.
 
In the so-called Islamic calendar the start of Ramadan depends on the sighting of the new crescent moon. The sighting of the new crescent moon is not an easy task and only expert observers under optimal viewing conditions can see the new-moon crescent. Hence, the vast majority of people never sees the new-moon crescent and only sees the 1-2 day old crescent. This difficulty is a major reason for the annual dispute about the timing. What many people don't know is that the start of so-called Ramadan depends on a myriad of other factors other than the sighting of the new-moon crescent.
 
The current so-called Islamic calendar was established during the time of Caliph Omar, long after the death of the prophet and the revelation of the great reading. This is confirmed by archeological evidence from coins and manuscripts of the era. [Please see: Alan Jones, "The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558", in Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.]
 
Interestingly, the word "hijri" doesn't appear on manuscripts until much later so we don't really know what this arbitrary dating of the new era was based on.
 
One of the factors that affects when present-day so-called Ramadan starts depends on when the start of the so-called Islamic calendar was set. For example, had its start been set for three years earlier, then this year the dating of Ramadan would have been a month earlier. As I mentioned above, we know from verifiable archeological evidence that the new calendar was established around 638 AD, long after the prophet's time. Several generations later, a story circulated that Omar decided after consultation with others to make the year of the "hijra" the first date of the new era. So the timing of Ramadan today is dependent not only on the sighting of the new crescent moon but on an arbitrary decision that was made many centuries ago.
 
As a side note, traditionalists also contend that the prophet first started to abstain in the second year after migration/"hijra". So according to them this means that 2:185 was revealed early in Yathrib. The traditionalists contend that Chapter 9 (where they claim there is the alleged calendar modification order) was revealed in the last year of the prophet's life. By holding to this traditional view and backdating the so-called Islamic calendar to the alleged first year of "hijra" sectarians imply that all his life, the prophet abstained on the wrong dates (see Appendix).
 
Another factor that the start of the present so-called Ramadan depends on is the order of the months at the time the new calendar system was adopted. In "pre-quranic" times, the Arabs didn't use a single standard calendar. Arabs used calendars based on 4, 5, and 6-season system. Some "pre-quranic" Arabs used the calendar system of the Persians. Others used the calendar system of the Jews and some used the calendar system of the Romans. The Nabataeans used to align the months with the zodiac and hence some Arabs used the star based calendar system. Rabi3 months etymology denotes grazing in spring and fall. In Arabia the rainy season, which would promote the growth of grasses for grazing, occurs during autumn. This is confirmed by what is known about Arabs using a 6 season system that split fall into Rabi3 Althani (early fall) and Kharif (late fall) prior to the so-called Islamic calendar. In this system each season lasted two months. The new Omar Calendar that we have today has a different order for the months. The arbitrary decision to rearrange the order of the months also affects when the present day so-called Ramadan occurs.
 
Hence, in addition to the sighting of the new crescent moon, we have two other completely arbitrary factors affecting when so-called Ramadan starts. Hence, for all intents and purposes, the current so-called Ramadan is completely arbitrary and it is no different than randomly picking a month for abstaining.  
 
The problem of pinpointing an arbitrary month called Ramadan is the same type of problem that the Jews, Christians, and sectarians face in pinpointing their "holy" days in the arbitrary week. For example, sectarians claim that Friday, which they named Al-Jum3at (as opposed to the common noun "ywm al-jum3at"/time of gathering in the great reading), is a special "holy" day where, according to their traditions, Adam was created. What is hard for many people to understand is that the week is completely arbitrary. Hence, the fact is that the week has not always been seven days. Weeks from 4 to 20 days were observed. For example, the ancient Egyptians used a 10-day week while the Mayans used a 20-day week. The week was typically the interval from one market day to the next. Four to 20 days gave farmers and craftsmen enough time to gather and transport products to sell. Hence, when Friday occurs depends on when the present seven day week was arbitrarily adopted and which day it started with.
 
There is nothing wrong or forbidden with an arbitrary timeframe in itself. The problem is to act as if The God somehow has to conform to the man-made arbitrary timeframes and to say to people that The God ordered you to fast in this or that completely arbitrary timeframe or take that arbitrary day as "holy". Another problem with such arbitrary timeframes is that errors made at the beginning of their adoption are propagated into the future and get larger and larger. This shouldn't be the case because we are not responsible for the errors of those who came before us. Hence, an effective method of specifying a timeframe shouldn't be one that allows such errors to propagate. It should be one that allows those who have faith at any point of time to obey The God's command correctly irrespective of what their predecessors decided to do or not to do. This is impossible with the current so-called Islamic calendar, which as we saw is influenced by decisions made centuries ago. Another problem is that, as we saw earlier, now and in the past people used different calendars, a universal command that is to be understood by everybody would best be based on clear cosmic phenomena and not on man-made calendars.
 
Now that we presented the problem, let's look in the great reading for the solution.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 20, 2004, 08:56:18 AM
2:185. "shahr ramadhan" is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses "al-shahr", let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
 
A common misconception is that the word "shahr" means month. However, the term "shahr" doesn't mean month. According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabs used to call the moon "shahr". But what phase of the moon does the word "shahr" imply?
 
Classical Arabic Dictionaries deal extensively with the etymology of the word "shahr". For instance in the discussion of "shahr", it gives "ash-harat", a derivative of "shahr", as meaning a pregnant woman whose belly is round. It also gives the meaning of "shahira(t)" as a big wide woman. It also gives the meaning of "ash-har" as the bright white color of flowers. The primary meaning of the word "shahr" is "something obvious", "something public", "something wide", and "something bright". Hence, all the etymology of the Arabic word "shahr" indisputably and clearly points to it being the obvious, wide, round, and bright full-moon and not the thin, unobvious, and dim new crescent moon.
 
There is no evidence that there was a "pre-quranic" month named Ramadhan. The common noun "ramadhan" means "scorching heat". The only derivative from "R-M-Dh" in the great reading is the word "ramadhan", which occurs only once. Hence, there is no way to compare directly the meaning with how it is used in other verses.
 
However, one can indirectly verify the meaning. Verses such as 2:217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram". We also know that the whole context of chapter 9 (or the second half of the very long chapter 8, since the "bism Allah" are the only separators) is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty. A sign in verse 9:81 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocrites were fearful from was a hot time of the year. Shortly after 9:82, 9:86 talks about a chapter descending at that time and from 2:185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended so that provides an additional link between "shahr ramadhan" and "al-shahr al-7aram". Hence, circumstantial evidence from the great reading supports that "al-shahr al-7aram"/"shahr ramadhan" is a hot time of the year and confirms the dictionary's meaning.
 
With this understanding, let's now complete the translation of 2:185 that we started above:
 
2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
 
Now 2:185 contains the complete information that we need to know when to start the abstinence. It is the complete information irrespective of what calendar system each nation or group uses because it doesn't rely on any calendar system and instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.
 
When does scorching heat begin to take place? The time of scorching heat starts after the summer solstice. This is the time when the sun is at its highest point and hence the shadow is smallest. Verse 25:45 talks about the indicative relationship between the sun and the shadow. It is after the summer solstice that the weather starts to become hot.
 
Interestingly, the full-moon around the summer solstice is special because it follows a lower path across the sky compared to the rest of the year's full moons and for some reason our brains are wired to perceive such full-moons as larger than normal. In fact, not only will the full-moon seem bigger than normal, but the low-hanging full moon takes on an orange hue as a result of scattered moonlight in Earth's dusty atmosphere. For the same reason that warning lights are orange, this orange hue creates a strong visual response, preserves the observer's night vision, and allows him/her to better see the shape and details of the moon than the normal white moon light (while driving, we all experienced how looking into white headlights degrades those abilities). Hence, the full-moon after the summer solstice is easier to witness. Moreover, because this orange moon appears while the days are longest, at the time of its appearance it is still daylight and it is still hot outside. All these signs are certainly not coincidental.
 
Now the next question to ask is about the year. Is the year in the great reading solar or lunar?
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 20, 2004, 08:57:02 AM
10.5. It is He who made the sun a shining brightness and the moon a light and made it stages; so that you might know the number of years and the calculation. The God didn't create this except with the truth, He explains His signs to people who know.
 
From 10:5, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by either or both the sun and the moon, however there is no mention of a specific stage of the moon. Another sign that makes it absolutely clear that the year is solar is in 17:12:
 
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs: the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
 
Given that night and day is certainly determined by the sun and not the moon, the sign in 17:12 leaves absolutely no doubt that the year is solar.
 
More confirmation is in 12:47-49 that talk about the "year" definitely as a solar year because of reference to agricultural cycles and planning of crops that would have to be done according to seasons that don't change from one year to the next.
 
A verse that is often mistranslated and hence confused is 2:189. Here is the mistranslation of Yusuf Ali:
 
002.189
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back: It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors: And fear Allah: That ye may prosper.

 
Please notice that Yusuf Ali and most other translators translate "ahila(t)" (the plural of "hilal") as new moons. On the other hand, the meaning given for "hilal" by Arabic lexicons such as Al-Mo7it, Al-Wasit, and Lisan Al-3arab is different. The lexicons say that the "hilal" is the moon in both its beginning and its end. Yet for some reason, most translators ignored this fact and instead claim that "hilal"/"ahila(t)" means only the new moon. Let's now replace new-moons with the correct translation:
 
2:189. They ask you regarding the crescent moons, Say: "They are timings for the people as well as for the debate." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of the God that you may succeed.
 
According to the corrected translation, crescent moons in general (both the thinning crescent and the widening crescent) can serve as timing devices.
 
Another verse that talks about timing/"myqat" is 7:142 where Moussa is described as completing the "myqat"/timing. So "myqat"/"mawaqit" can signify timing/timings for completion of something.
 
7:142. And We appointed for Moussa thirty nights, and We completed with ten: thus was completed the timing of his Lord, forty nights...  
 
We also hear about 10 nights in 89:2.
 
Interestingly, 10 nights is exactly how long it takes for the full-moon to reach the crescent stage. Note the relationship between the 10 extra nights in 7:142 and the 10 days of "7ajj"/debate in 2:196. We hear about 10 days in 2:196, three during the "7aj"/bargain and seven when those whose family was not in the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction/"al-masjid al-haram" return. As for those whose family is in the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction, they would stay the whole 10 days. This makes sense because those whose family are not oriented to the truth from our Lord, should go back earlier to teach them based on what they heard. Hence, putting 2:189, 7:142, and 2:196 together, we can see that the "ahila(t)"/crescents provide timing for the completion of the "7ajj"/debate not its beginning.
 
We also know from 2:189 that we should come into houses from the obvious front doors and not from the obscure backs. This hints to us that the "7ajj"/debate starts with the obvious full moon and that the unobvious crescent is what ends the "7ajj"/debate. This way it lasts for 10 total days, which is the exact period from full-moon to crescent:
 
<full moon ><---10 days--><-- thinning crescent 4-5 days--><-- widening crescent ---4-5 days--><---10 days--><full moon>
 
This is how the crescents provide timing for the "7aj"/bargain. Moreover, the "7aj"/bargain is a known counted days at the four restriction "ash-hur"/full moons. They are the 10 days between the full moon and the crescent moon for four consecutive full moons, starting with the full moon of scorching heat/"ramadhan" after the summer solstice. This gives people 4 opportunities per year to meet up for the "7ajj"/debate.
 
Verse 2:184 talks about abstaining for a few/"ma3doodat" days. The word "ma3doodat" typically indicates a number from 3-10 as the term is used for numbers which can be simply counted even by the fingers of the hand. As we saw already, 2:196 indicates that the full time of "7ajj"/debate is 10 days for those whose family are in the institution of hearing and obeying the restriction and three days for those whose family is not (could be shortened to two according to 2:203). Thus, in 2:185 the complete count is 10 days, which again is the exact period from full-moon to crescent. Hence, the crescent once again serves as a timing device, in this case to time the abstinence.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 20, 2004, 08:57:46 AM
This would be a good time to find out how the restricted full-moons fit in all this. First, let's see the traditional view. The reason for the so-called Islamic calendar is always given as verse 9:37:
 
9:37. But the "nasi'a" is an increase in rejection, whereby those who have rejected are misguide with it. They make it permitted one year, and they restrict it one year, to circumvent the count that The God has made restricted; thus they make lawful what The God made restricted! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and The God does not guide the rejecting people.
 
The whole lunar calendar was adopted to avoid the "nasi'a". Interestingly, despite this there is no consensus about what the word "nasi'a" means. Some people claim that it is the addition of an intercalary month. Others claim that it is the haphazard assignment of the restricted "ash-hur" at the beginning of each year. All the classical Arabic dictionaries say that "nasi'a" means "delay" and that the Arabs used to delay the start of the restricted "ash-hur" by making the month of Safar restricted instead of Mu7aram. Given the etymology of the word that points to "delay" then most probably the dictionaries are the most correct and their meaning has nothing to do with changing the calendar to lunar, since the arbitrary assignment of a restricted "shahr" can be delayed in a lunar calendar just as easily as in a solar one.
 
Another verse that is used to justify a fully lunar calendar is 9:36. Here is a translation of 9:36 that is based on our findings:
 
9:36. The count of the full-moons with The God is twelve full-moons in The God?s book the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct obligation; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set-up partners collectively as they fight you collectively and know that The God is with the forethoughtful.
 
Now, people will point out that in some years the number of full-moons is actually 13. However, we are not concerned about the number ("3adad") of full-moons in a year. We are concerned about the count ("3idat") of full-moons in a year.
 
To illustrate the difference between "3adad" and "3idat", let me use an example. In so-called Islamic countries the laws for divorce state that there is a 3 months waiting period before a divorce becomes final. Hence, a couple who divorced on September 7th would have their divorced finalized on December 7th, if using the Georgian calendar. Or applying the same principle in the so-called Islamic calendar, a couple who divorces on the 12th of Mu7aram would have their divorce finalized on the 12th of Rabi3 Al-Thani. Hence, the number of months is 3 and the waiting period in both cases is approximately 90 days. As we will see, this is different than the count "3idat".
 
Verse 2:228 provides interesting clues into how the count is different than the absolute number. It shows us how waiting periods and "shahr" are measured.
 
It can be seen from 2:226-228 that in case the couple decides to divorce after the initial 4 "ash-hur" waiting period in 2:226, then 2:228 prescribes an additional waiting period of 3 menstruations.
 
What is interesting here is that assuming that the average is 28 days for a menstrual cycle and it lasts for a week, counting 3 menstruations could be between 56+7=61 days (if the lady happens to have her menstruation right after the divorce) and 82 days (if the lady happens to finish her menstruation right before the divorce). This is certainly different than the 90 days we found earlier by waiting for 3 months.
 
In 2:226, assuming a cycle of full moon to full moon is 30 days, then waiting for 4 "full moons" could range from 90 days (if a full moon occurs right after the couple is estranged) to 119 days (if a full moon occurred right before the couple is estranged). This is again different than the 120 days of the absolute 4 months.
 
Another interesting observation is that 2:234 talks about 4 "ash-hur" plus 10 (days?/nights?) for the woman whose husband died. What are the 10 days/nights after the full moon? As we saw earlier, it is the time it takes for the full-moon to reach the crescent stage again. So here we have the crescent used as a timing device for the purpose of counting the waiting period.
 
There is a sign in this that can help us to correctly understand 9:36. If The God was telling us about the number (i.e., an absolute number), then given that a few billion years passed since He created the moon and the earth, the absolute number of full-moons would not be twelve but would be in the billions. Hence, what is meant here is not an absolute number but how to count the full moons in a year. What The God is telling us is that we should always count 12 full moons in a year, out of which, we should count four as restricted. We start with the marker given to us. So in a solar year starting from the summer solstice, the first full-moon to count would be the one after the summer solstice and that is the full-moon of "ramadhan"/scorching heat. So what happens in the occasional years where we have 13 full-moons from one summer solstice to the next? The answer is that we simply do not count the 13th moon. This would automatically readjust the count and the full-moon of "ramadhan" would always be the first moon after the summer solstice. It is a very clear and surprisingly simple mechanism. All it requires is that we put our faith in The God and count only 12 full-moons in a year despite that we occasionally see 13.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 20, 2004, 08:58:30 AM
So now that we have this puzzle finally solved, let's turn our attention back to the restricted full-moons. We already determined that the first full-moon after the summer solstice (the full-moon of "ramadhan") is the first restricted full-moon. Hence, counting four full-moons beginning with the first full-moon after the summer solstice would give us the restricted four full-moons and as usual, the crescent times the end of the period (a period of about 90+10 ≈ 100 days). The solstice happens towards the later part of June (June 22 or so). The full-moon of scorching heat would be 0-30 days after that. Thus, the start of the restricted full-moons would be on average around the beginning of the second week of July and would end around the third week in October (this is average but it could be sooner or as late as end of October depending on when the full-moon occurred after the summer solstice). So the restriction full-moons cover the time from about mid summer to mid fall.
 
The timing of the restriction is significant, especially given that the restriction is on hunting wild-life. Interestingly, the restriction doesn't cover domesticated livestock animals (see 5:1). Why is that? The answer may be because summer is the time when most wild animals and even wild birds give birth. By killing a wild female animal, you are not only killing it but you would also be inadvertently killing all its new-born off-spring who cannot feed and fend for themselves. Also, finding the new-born animals gives the hunter an unfair advantage because the mother is sometimes reluctant to leave them or the hunter can just wait close by until the mother comes back for them and easily bring her down. On the other hand, when a mother of a domesticated livestock animal is killed, her new-born can be easily cared for by people and they will survive fine. Of course, our analysis indicates that the restriction period would be different between the southern and the northern hemisphere. This is fine. There is nothing in the great reading that indicates that they should be the same for people all over the world. We should orient our direction to the truth from our Lord wherever we are, whether in the Southern or Northern hemisphere (see 2:149).
 
In conclusion, we can see that The God gave us a clear marker for the restriction month. This clear marker is independent from any man-made calendar system and instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena. The orange full-moon after the summer solstice that appears clearer and larger to the observer and is directly in the line of sight can be witnessed by almost everybody so that even primitive societies with no means to calculate the moon cycles ahead of time can witness it. 2:185 doesn't say "whoever was told by someone, who was told by a Mullah about "al-shahr"", it says "whoever witnessed "al-shahr"". This is the simplest and most straightforward method that would generate the least discrepancies no matter how primitive or advanced a society is and no matter what man-made calendar system they use. Moreover, this marker is unaffected by the arbitrary decisions of people who came before us and we don't have to implicitly blindly accept those decisions. Hence, those who have faith can always now and in the future make a fresh start and reset the system to the true marker. So clearly this is a robust timing solution that is not affected by any errors propagated from those who came before us.
 
Interestingly, after completing this article, we inadvertently found out exactly when the night of destiny ("laylat al-qadr") occurs. Simply, the great reading was descended in the night of the full-moon of scorching heat.
 
Although we answered several questions, as usual many questions remain. For example, what is the difference, if any, between "3am" and "sana(t)"? Both are equally translated as "year" but this seems unlikely because of 29:14 where both are used.
 
 
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER:
 
2:2. This is the book no doubt in it, a guidance for the forethoughtful.

 
This article reflects my personal interpretation of the verses of the reading as of November 14, 2004. I will try to improve my understanding of the great reading and the universe, except if The God wills and perhaps my Lord guides me to what is nearer in rationality. Please verify all information within for yourself as commanded in 17:36, and remember that simply "none" is the forethoughtful answer to 45:6. If The God willed, the outcome of this article will be beneficial.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 20, 2004, 08:58:51 AM
APPENDIX
 
According to unverifiable hearsay stories, it is alleged that Abu Musa Asha'ari, the Governor of Basra wrote the following to Caliph Omar:

"Amir-ul-Mominin, we receive instructions from you every now and then, but as the letters are undated, and some times the contents of the letters differ, it becomes difficult to ascertain as to which instructions are to be followed."  

The unverifiable hearsay tale of the establishment of the new calendar then goes something like this:

That set Omar thinking. In the meantime, he received from Yemen a draft for some money which was encashable in Shaban. Omar thought that the practice of merely mentioning the month in such cases was defective for one could not be sure whether the month referred to was of the current or the following year.  
 
Omar convened an assembly to consider the question of calendar reform.  
 
Some one suggested that the Roman calendar should be adopted. After discussion the proposal was rejected as the Roman calendar dated from too remote an era and was cumbersome.  
 
It was next considered whether the Persian calendar might be adopted. Hormuzan explained the salient features of the Persian calendar called 'Mahroz'. The consensus of opinion was that such a calendar would not be suitable for the Muslims.  
 
The general opinion was that instead of adopting any alien calendar, the Muslims should have a calendar of their own. This was agreed to, and the point next considered was from when should such an era begin?  
 
Some one suggested that the era should begin from the date of birth of the Holy Prophet. Some suggested that it should begin from the death of the Holy Prophet. Ali suggested that it should begin from the date the Muslims migrated from Mecca to Madina. After discussion, Ali's suggestion was agreed to.
 
The Holy Prophet had migrated in the month of Rabi-ulAwwal, when the year had already run two months and eight days. Next the question arose from which month should the new era start.  
 
Some one suggested that the calendar should start with the month of Rajab as in the pre-Islamic period this month was held sacred. Some one proposed that the first month should be Ramzan as that is a sacred month for the Muslims. Another proposal was that the first month should be 'Zul Hajj' as that is the month of the pilgrimage.
 
Usman suggested that as in Arabia the year started with Muharram the new era should also start with Muharram. This suggestion was accepted. The date was accordingly pushed back by two months and eight days, and the new Hijri calendar began with the first day of Muharram in the year of migration rather than from the actual date of migration.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: hafeez kazi on November 20, 2004, 03:36:36 PM
Peace Ayman

Excellent, super, informative  and thoughtful.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on November 21, 2004, 02:37:57 AM
Peace all,

An Indepth RESEARCH on SALAAT (http://www.free-minds.org/forum/posting.php?mode=reply&t=2757)
Quote from: "Idris"
peace,

lets take a look at Yankee's question and apply it to Ramadan

Quote
Taking the northern hemisphere as an example ;during summer at latitudes beyond 66 degrees North the sun does not set at all so how do you abide to the dawn and dusk salat??


this question can also be applied to Ramadan fasting/abstaining from dawn to dusk, how can fasting in Ramadan be upheld at the same time all over the world (or at two seperate times, one for the northern hemisphere and one for the southern, but there are also no times in the year when the sun sets/rises for a whole hemisphere i think) when there are basically no times in the whole year when the sun sets/rises all over the earth for any amount of days, lets say Ramadan is in summer how can people in latitudes beyond 66 degrees north abide by it? this is only part of the problem, in verses 2:184, 2:196, 4:82, 5:89, 5:95, 58:4, and so forth we are told to abstain/fast in different occasions for different reasons, so lets say somebody that lives in latitudes beyond 66 degrees North during the summer and breaks a pledge, how would he abstain/fast according to 2:196? to my view these verses aren't telling us to fast from dust to dawn when we fail at doing these certain things but to abstain from doing a particular thing when we do so (hence the meaning of saum-abstain) for these reasons I believe we have to change our views of dawn/dusk when it comes to Ramadan too, I'm not sure if Abstinence was also decreed for the prophet and his people as well too? whats your view Marie?

peace



Quote from: "marie"
Peace all,

Quote from: "Elena"
Peace SwedenMajidah, all,
How do muslims who live in Northern Europe, say Norway and Sweden, organise the fast? In summer there is no night, in winter there is no day, more in the extreme North, but  it also happens in the south part, I experienced it.



2:183. O you who believe, fasting is decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you perhaps you may be righteous.


In 2:187, Allah explains us how to fast, I think it is valid for all people whatever our geographical situation.

If we cannot apply it for certain areas of our sphere during seasons of winter and summer, perhaps this is the proof that the month of ramadan is neither in winter nor in summer but in other season.

2:187. It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.

We know the timing of ?alhajj? is in the months (restricted months) which have been appointed  (2:197).

If the four restricted months correspond to the season of autumn in order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere, we read in chapter 106  that Quraysh accomplish their journey in winter and summer; they don?t travel during the season of autumn which could correspond to the period of the ramadan and alhajj (the four restricted months) and where they receive "alhujjaj / Pilgrims" (9:19).




Any comments appreciated

Thanks

Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 21, 2004, 04:57:12 AM
Peace sister Marie, all,

Quote from: "marie"
Quote
this question can also be applied to Ramadan fasting/abstaining from dawn to dusk, how can fasting in Ramadan be upheld at the same time all over the world (or at two seperate times, one for the northern hemisphere and one for the southern, but there are also no times in the year when the sun sets/rises for a whole hemisphere i think) when there are basically no times in the whole year when the sun sets/rises all over the earth for any amount of days, lets say Ramadan is in summer how can people in latitudes beyond 66 degrees north abide by it?


I think that if abstaining is abstaining from food and drink then we are told that those who can do it but with great difficulty should give out charity instead. This would certainly apply to those few living in areas where the days are extremely long.

Quote from: "marie"
Quote
If the four restricted months correspond to the season of autumn in order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere, we read in chapter 106  that Quraysh accomplish their journey in winter and summer; they don?t travel during the season of autumn which could correspond to the period of the ramadan and alhajj (the four restricted months) and where they receive "alhujjaj / Pilgrims" (9:19).


Any comments appreciated


The Arabs had six and five season systems that divided what we know today as "summer" into "sayf" (Around 22 april - 22 June) and "qayth" (Around 22 June - 22 August). Hence, "ramadhan" occured in "qayth" not "sayf".

You actually bring up a very important point that totally destroys the present so-called Islamic calendar. In a purely lunar calendar, the alleged restricted months change and would eventually fall in "shitaa" or in "sayf". However, because Quraysh traveled during those times, those CANNOT be the times of the resticted full-moons of "7ajj"/debate.

Given that "7ajj" is a gathering like the annual fair where people gather their products to sell, it makes perfect sense that Quraysh would travel in "sayf" before the start of the restricted full-moons in "qayth" to buy goods to sell at the "7ajj". After the end of the restricted full-moons, it would also make sense that they use the money they earned during trading and travel to buy goods.  

Thank you for helping me further clarify and confirm my understanding.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Peace on November 21, 2004, 07:03:14 AM
Peace Ayman,
I found your article quite informative, and it seems like the best understanding I've heard so far. Great work!
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 21, 2004, 07:13:55 AM
Peace brothers Hafeez and Peace,

Quote from: "hafeez kazi"
Excellent, super, informative  and thoughtful.


Quote from: "Peace"
I found your article quite informative, and it seems like the best understanding I've heard so far. Great work!


Thank you for your kind comments and encouragement. Ultimate gratitude is to The God who descended the book and didn't allow any deviation in it.

It is brother Zein who got me thinking about this topic again after I had set it aside a while back when I reached a dead end. The reminder that he provided me led to this article and finally solving this puzzle.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Danish on November 21, 2004, 09:09:52 AM
Peace Ayman,

Quote from: "ayman"
...it makes perfect sense that Quraysh would travel in "sayf" before the start of the restricted full-moons in "qayth" to buy goods to sell at the "7ajj". After the end of the restricted full-moons, it would also make sense that they use the money they earned during trading and travel to buy goods.

Please claify what does "restricted full-moons" mean? What has trading and traveling got to do with "restricted full-moons"?

Thanks and GOD Bless.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 21, 2004, 10:57:29 AM
Peace Danish,

Quote from: "Danish"
Please claify what does "restricted full-moons" mean? What has trading and traveling got to do with "restricted full-moons"?


The restriction full-moons is counting a period spanning four full-moons starting with the full-moon of scorching heat/"ramadan". During that period,  hunting wildlife is restricted and the gathering of the "7ajj"/debate takes place.

Chapter 106 addresses the people of the prophet. They were making two trips one in "sayf" and another in "shetaa". Those cannot be the same times as the time of "7ajj" where they have to be present (not traveling) so that they can conduct their business. More confirmation that people worked all year so that they can sell their products at the "7ajj"/debate is in 28:27 where hiring is done for the purpose of the "7ajj"/debate.

I hope this helps clarify things.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on November 22, 2004, 06:21:47 PM
Peace brother Ayman, all,


Allah says "The count of the shuhoori with God is twelve shahran..." [9:36],
if "shahr" =  the moon, some years have 13 full moons
Question about article "What is Religion?" (http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2587&highlight=elke)

I disagree with your understanding about the word meeqat in 7:142, another word with the same root is used in 4:103 (kitab mawqoot/the timed book)
In 7:142, we read "fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan" doesn't mean that "meeqat" indicates only the end of a period.

The complete term would take forty nights = fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan

meeqat = 40 nights (a period)

For me alahilat/new moon or crescent indicates the begenning and the end of the four restricted shahr (aljajj) among the twelve months in a year (9:36)

I don't find any quranic evidence that "alqamar/the moon"  = shahr.

Maybe 58:4 brings an additionnal information about the word "shahr"

58:4. If he cannot find any, then he shall fast two consecutive months (shahrayni mutatabiAAayni) before any sexual contact between them. If he cannot, then he shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would believe in God and His messenger. And these are the limits set by God. The disbelievers have incurred a painful retribution.

"shahrayni mutatabiAAayni/two consecutive shahr" and "to feed sixty poor people" is a coincidence or not?

I don't mean that shahr = 30 days but 58:4 can clarifiy the length of the month.

In 2:184, should we understand that for those who can do so but with difficulty, then to feed the same number of indigents than the number of days of abstinence (shahr ramadhan)?

1 day of abstinence  = to feed 1 indigent

2 days of abstinence  = 2 indigents

...


2:184. A few number of days. But, if any of you is sick or is traveling, the number of days should be made up later. For those who can go through Abstinence only with hardship, there is compensation, the feeding of an indigent. Any additional charity will mean additional reward. However, if you knew better, the training course of Abstinence is good for you.


Looking for your thoughts


Thanks

Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: hafeez kazi on November 22, 2004, 08:22:23 PM
peace all.

In SULTANATE OF OMAN (MUSCAT) the festival of KHAREEF is celeberated from 15TH JULY TO 14TH AUGUST, every year. Many visitors come from neighbouring countries like Dubai, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait etc.

I do not know why the Omanis do not follow the Islamic calendar, but follow the Christian calendar.

thanks.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 23, 2004, 01:34:48 PM
Peace sister Marie, all,

Quote from: "marie"
Allah says "The count of the shuhoori with God is twelve shahran..." [9:36],
if "shahr" =  the moon, some years have 13 full moons
Question about article "What is Religion?" (http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2587&highlight=elke)


We should only count 12 even in the years where there are 13. Hence, we should simply not count the 13th moon. The difference between absolute number ("3adad") and count ("3idat") was explained in more details in the article. Please go over those details again and let me know if there is anything that specifically requires more clarification.

Quote from: "marie"
I disagree with your understanding about the word meeqat in 7:142, another word with the same root is used in 4:103 (kitab mawqoot/the timed book)
In 7:142, we read "fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan" doesn't mean that "meeqat" indicates only the end of a period.


It doesn't mean only the start of a period either. So we agree that it could mean EITHER end of a period OR start of a period.

Quote from: "marie"
The complete term would take forty nights = fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan

meeqat = 40 nights (a period)


That is a perfect example of "meeqat" used to describe the END of a period. In this case, the end of a 40 night period. It is IMPOSSBILE to time a 40 day period with the "hilal" as a start and at the end. So how was "hilal" a timing device for Moses? It is a timing device because the extra 10 days is EXACTLY how long extra it takes for two consecutive full-moons to reach the "hilal" stage again. Hence, Like us Moses used the "hilal" as a timing device.

Remember, The God didn't just make up special timing devices for the 1400 year old Arabs. The same logical principles and timing devices were applied by previous messengers.

Quote from: "marie"
For me alahilat/new moon or crescent indicates the begenning and the end of the four restricted shahr (aljajj) among the twelve months in a year (9:36)


9:36 doesn't mention "ahilat" so you must be refering to the wrong verse.

Quote from: "marie"
I don't find any quranic evidence that "alqamar/the moon"  = shahr.


What do you think "shahr" means? How can we witness a "shahr"?

Quote from: "marie"
Maybe 58:4 brings an additionnal information about the word "shahr"

58:4. If he cannot find any, then he shall fast two consecutive months (shahrayni mutatabiAAayni) before any sexual contact between them. If he cannot, then he shall feed sixty poor people. That is so you would believe in God and His messenger. And these are the limits set by God. The disbelievers have incurred a painful retribution.

"shahrayni mutatabiAAayni/two consecutive shahr" and "to feed sixty poor people" is a coincidence or not?

I don't mean that shahr = 30 days but 58:4 can clarifiy the length of the month.

In 2:184, should we understand that for those who can do so but with difficulty, then to feed the same number of indigents than the number of days of abstinence (shahr ramadhan)?

1 day of abstinence  = to feed 1 indigent

2 days of abstinence  = 2 indigents

...

2:184. A few number of days. But, if any of you is sick or is traveling, the number of days should be made up later. For those who can go through Abstinence only with hardship, there is compensation, the feeding of an indigent. Any additional charity will mean additional reward. However, if you knew better, the training course of Abstinence is good for you.


Firstly, 2:184 doesn't say how many indigents to feed. From the Arabic original and even the English translation you provided, it seems like it is feeding just ONE indigent for the 10 days (i.e., 10 days of abstinence  =  feed 1 indigent)

Abstaining for the period of two consecutive full moons means abstaining for ONE full-moon cycle (i.e., 1 day of abstinence = feeding of 2 indigents).

Secondly, please see 5:89 where feeding 10 indigents is equivalent to abstaining for 3 days.

So here we have 1 day of abstinence = 3.33 indigents!

Hence, indigents and days of abstinence are not the same and their ratio depends on what it is we are compensating for.

I hope this was useful.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on November 24, 2004, 07:14:23 PM
Peace brother Ayman, all,

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Quote from: "ayman"
Peace sister Marie, all,

Quote from: "marie"
Allah says "The count of the shuhoori with God is twelve shahran..." [9:36],
if "shahr" =  the moon, some years have 13 full moons
Question about article "What is Religion?" (http://www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2587&highlight=elke)


We should only count 12 even in the years where there are 13. Hence, we should simply not count the 13th moon. The difference between absolute number ("3adad") and count ("3idat") was explained in more details in the article. Please go over those details again and let me know if there is anything that specifically requires more clarification.


Maybe I'm wrong but  I disagree with you and I think that 9:36 is  a proof that the word "sha-hr" doesn't mean the full moon because we can't count 12 full moon every year. I respect your view and as I already said it, I consider "alqamar" as the full moon which  becomes through stages like an old curved sheath (36:39).

Quote

Quote from: "marie"
I disagree with your understanding about the word meeqat in 7:142, another word with the same root is used in 4:103 (kitab mawqoot/the timed book)
In 7:142, we read "fatamma meeqaturabbihi arbaAAeena laylatan" doesn't mean that "meeqat" indicates only the end of a period.


It doesn't mean only the start of a period either. So we agree that it could mean EITHER end of a period OR start of a period.


What is said in 7:142 is not a good example to solve our problem, Allah didn't appoint for Moses a specified sha-hr completed with ten but only forty nights whatever the stage of the moon.

About hilal (new moon or crescent), I consider it both the start and the end of a period or the end and the start of a period:

sha-hr 12........................sha-hr 1..............................sha-hr 2.............
---------------->hilal1--------------------> Hilal2----------------------->Hilal 3

For example Hilal 1 is the end of the 12nd  sha-hr and the start of the first sha-hr

Hilal 2 is the end of the first sha-hr and the start of the second sha-hr

Hilal 1 and 2 are the start and the end of the first sha-hr.


Quote
Quote from: "marie"
I don't find any quranic evidence that "alqamar/the moon"  = shahr.


What do you think "shahr" means? How can we witness a "shahr"?


This is a good question and I will try to answer it insha'Allah.

We read:
Shahru ramadana (2:185)

Inna AAiddata (the count)  alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara (12) shahran (9:36)

minha arbaAAatun (Four of these twelve sha-hr) hurumun (are restricted) (9:36)

Yas-aloonaka AAani al-ahillati qul hiya mawaqeetu lilnnasi waalhajji (2:189)

"al-ahillati" are a timing mechanism for 1) the people as well as for 2) Alhajj.

"Alhajju" ashhurun maAAloomatun (which have been appointed) (2:197) which correspond to the four restricted ashhurun.

"al-ahillati" are a timing mechanism for the twelve sha-hr.


In 2:185 we are told "whoever of you obseve/witness alshsha-hra, then let him abstain it"

"alshsha-hra" refers to "shahru ramadana/the period of ramadan", I prefer to use a period for the word "sha-hr" instead of a month or cycle of moon.


There are twelve periods per year which have a start and an end


When I observe a period of ramadan, I have to abstain it; to abstain this period which is one period among the twelve periods in the year.

How to determine the start and the end of any period among the tewelve periods, the response is provided in 2:189.

We are not asked to abstain the full moon or the new moon or the moon but a period of ramadan.

Allah didn't ask us to abstain 10 days (it is only guessing work) but to abstain a period of ramadan.

Quote

Quote
2:184. A few number of days. But, if any of you is sick or is traveling, the number of days should be made up later. For those who can go through Abstinence only with hardship, there is compensation, the feeding of an indigent. Any additional charity will mean additional reward. However, if you knew better, the training course of Abstinence is good for you.


Abstaining for the period of two consecutive full moons means abstaining for ONE full-moon cycle (i.e., 1 day of abstinence = feeding of 2 indigents).


I disagree "shahrayni mutatabiAAayni" in 58:4 correspond to two periods among the twelve periods in the year.

For the moment I don't adhere to the meaning of ramadan as extreme heat" and I lean towards early autumn. I think a period of ramadan is the first period of the year and occurs during the first season.

Maybe I'm wrong but it is simple to abstain during early automn than extreme heat; "Allah wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship"(2:185).


The God knows best

Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 24, 2004, 11:49:37 PM
Peace sister Marie, all,

Quote from: "marie"
Maybe I'm wrong but  I disagree with you and I think that 9:36 is  a proof that the word "sha-hr" doesn't mean the full moon because we can't count 12 full moon every year.


It doesn't matter how many full-moons there are in a year, we are told to only count 12 full moons. This would automatically adjust the cycle every three years since every three years we would get a year with 13 full moons.

Quote from: "marie"
I respect your view and as I already said it, I consider "alqamar" as the full moon which  becomes through stages like an old curved sheath (36:39).


This is impossible because it is not just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit" in 21:33 but the moon in all its phases does.

Quote from: "marie"
What is said in 7:142 is not a good example to solve our problem, Allah didn't appoint for Moses a specified sha-hr completed with ten but only forty nights whatever the stage of the moon.


Every sign in the great reading is a good example, especially 7:142 where the term "meeqat" is used. We KNOW that "crescents" are used as "mawaqeet". Moses must have used the "crescent" too because the crescents are the timing devices made by The God for ALL people and this was not a special invention for the Arabs.

Quote from: "marie"
About hilal (new moon or crescent), I consider it both the start and the end of a period or the end and the start of a period:

sha-hr 12........................sha-hr 1..............................sha-hr 2.............
---------------->hilal1--------------------> Hilal2----------------------->Hilal 3

For example Hilal 1 is the end of the 12nd  sha-hr and the start of the first sha-hr

Hilal 2 is the end of the first sha-hr and the start of the second sha-hr

Hilal 1 and 2 are the start and the end of the first sha-hr.


According to 7:142, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do timing/"meeqat" of a 40 day period with crescent/"hilal" BOTH at the start and at the end. You have to choose either start or end. Hence, crescent/"ahilat" are used to time EITHER the start OR the end of a period but not BOTH.

Quote from: "marie"
Quote
What do you think "shahr" means? How can we witness a "shahr"?


This is a good question and I will try to answer it insha'Allah.

We read:
Shahru ramadana (2:185)

Inna AAiddata (the count)  alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara (12) shahran (9:36)

minha arbaAAatun (Four of these twelve sha-hr) hurumun (are restricted) (9:36)

Yas-aloonaka AAani al-ahillati qul hiya mawaqeetu lilnnasi waalhajji (2:189)

"al-ahillati" are a timing mechanism for 1) the people as well as for 2) Alhajj.

"Alhajju" ashhurun maAAloomatun (which have been appointed) (2:197) which correspond to the four restricted ashhurun.

"al-ahillati" are a timing mechanism for the twelve sha-hr.


It is IMPOSSIBLE for the crescents to a be timing mechanisms for 12 anything because there are in REALITY 24-26 crescents/"ahilat" in a year. Remember "ahila(t)"/crescents mean both the widening crescents and the thinning crescents.

Quote from: "marie"
In 2:185 we are told "whoever of you obseve/witness alshsha-hra, then let him abstain it"

"alshsha-hra" refers to "shahru ramadana/the period of ramadan", I prefer to use a period for the word "sha-hr" instead of a month or cycle of moon.

There are twelve periods per year which have a start and an end

When I observe a period of ramadan, I have to abstain it; to abstain this period which is one period among the twelve periods in the year.

How to determine the start and the end of any period among the tewelve periods, the response is provided in 2:189.


"Period" is not the dictionary meaning of "shahr", so we must have very strong evidence from the great reading to support that it means "period".

I looked in 2:189 but I didn't find any answer on how we can determine 12 periods using the 24-26 crescents/"ahila(t)" as timing devices.

Could you please kindly translate "shahr" as "period" instead of leaving it as "shahr" and let us know how we can determine the start and end of any "period" among the twelve "periods" using the 24-26 crescents/"ahila(t)" in a year.

Quote from: "marie"
We are not asked to abstain the full moon or the new moon or the moon but a period of ramadan.

Allah didn't ask us to abstain 10 days (it is only guessing work) but to abstain a period of ramadan.


Sister Marie, you criticize but do not tell us what the period of "ramadan" or abstinence is. It is always better to provide an alternative when one criticizes something.

Please tell us how long is the period of abstinence.

Quote from: "marie"
I disagree "shahrayni mutatabiAAayni" in 58:4 correspond to two periods among the twelve periods in the year.


Please tell us what those mysterious "periods" are.

Quote from: "marie"
For the moment I don't adhere to the meaning of ramadan as extreme heat" and I lean towards early autumn. I think a period of ramadan is the first period of the year and occurs during the first season.

Maybe I'm wrong but it is simple to abstain during early automn than extreme heat; "Allah wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship"(2:185).


Sister, please translate the word "ramadan" for us. We have to abstain according to the command. We can't know the command without knowing the meaning.

Thanks and all best wishes and peace,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on November 25, 2004, 02:18:57 AM
Peace brother Ayman,

Quote from: "ayman"

It doesn't matter how many full-moons there are in a year, we are told to only count 12 full moons. This would automatically adjust the cycle every three years since every three years we would get a year with 13 full moons.


Personnaly I understand from 9:36 that there are 12 fixed periods per years not 11 or 13 periods and I think it doesn't imply that we have to only count 12 sha-hr/12 full moons according to your reasoning.

Quote
Quote from: "marie"
I respect your view and as I already said it, I consider "alqamar" as the full moon which  becomes through stages like an old curved sheath (36:39).


This is impossible because it is not just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit" in 21:33 but the moon in all its phases does.


I did not say it is just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit. The phases of the moon/full moon is the consequence of this movement... That seems logical when Allah speaks about the sun it is not a partial sun, idem for the moon.

For me I distinguish the full moon (alqamar) and its phases in the light of 36:39 and they are two distinct things.

Quote
Every sign in the great reading is a good example, especially 7:142 where the term "meeqat" is used. We KNOW that "crescents" are used as "mawaqeet". Moses must have used the "crescent" too because the crescents are the timing devices made by The God for ALL people and this was not a special invention for the Arabs.


I disagree, this is your own deduction not supported by the quran, one can count 40 nights without using any crescent. Don't forget the sun, we can use it to count the number of days and years. Allah doesn't specify the sha-hr for moses, only 40 nights and the sun is sufficient for this task : 40 sunsets for 40 nights.


Quote
It is IMPOSSIBLE for the crescents to a be timing mechanisms for 12 anything because there are in REALITY 24-26 crescents/"ahilat" in a year. Remember "ahila(t)"/crescents mean both the widening crescents and the thinning crescents.


This is what is said in 2:189. alahillat are a timing mechanism for 1) the people and as well as for 2) alhajj.
Alhajj is in the periods (ash-hurun) which have been appointed = the four restricted) (2:197)  
and I consider "sha-hr ramadan" as the first period of the four retricted period. Consequetly, alahillat are a timing mechanism for the period of ramadan.

Some years have 13 full moons doesn't imply that there are 13 period per year. I try only to follow the instruction given in 2:189, alahillat and not the full moon which are a timing mechanism for the four restricted period and also for the first restricted period= the period of ramadan.

Quote

"Period" is not the dictionary meaning of "shahr", so we must have very strong evidence from the great reading to support that it means "period".


Let us be patient to verify this meaning in the light of the quran.


Quote
Sister Marie, you criticize but do not tell us what the period of "ramadan" or abstinence is. It is always better to provide an alternative when one criticizes something
.

Early automn according to the preservation of land-game (the hemisphere north).

Quote
Please tell us how long is the period of abstinence.


This period is between two new moons (hilal), in 2004 the period of early automn (ramadan) start from 15 october november till 13 november.


Quote
Sister, please translate the word "ramadan" for us. We have to abstain according to the command. We can't know the command without knowing the meaning.


- extreme heat, rain that comes just before autumn, the period ending summer and begining autumn.

Allah knows best

Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 25, 2004, 04:42:38 AM
Peace sister Marie,

Thank you for your response.

Quote from: "marie"
Quote from: "ayman"

It doesn't matter how many full-moons there are in a year, we are told to only count 12 full moons. This would automatically adjust the cycle every three years since every three years we would get a year with 13 full moons.


Personnaly I understand from 9:36 that there are 12 fixed periods per years not 11 or 13 periods and I think it doesn't imply that we have to only count 12 sha-hr/12 full moons according to your reasoning.


In other words, you don't see the difference between absolute number "3adad" and what The God told us to count "3idat" out of that "3adad". In this case, you have a major problem sister because there aren't exactly 12 crescents/"hilal" or 12 periods between 2 "hilal" per year and there are in fact 25 crescents on average. The period between each two consecutive "hilal" is either about 3 days (between the thinning and the widening "hilals") or 25 days (between the widening and the thining "hilals"). Hence, there are in fact about 24 "between 2 "hilal"" periods in a year.

Quote from: "marie"
Quote
This is impossible because it is not just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit" in 21:33 but the moon in all its phases does.


I did not say it is just the "full moon" that swims in an orbit.


So you are admitting that when The God says "al-qamar" swims in an orbit, He means not just the full-moon. I hope that you can clearly see that you are contradicting your earlier statement that "qamar" just means "full-moon".

Quote from: "marie"
The phases of the moon/full moon is the consequence of this movement... That seems logical when Allah speaks about the sun it is not a partial sun, idem for the moon.


You can't say phases of the full-moon. The full-moon only has one phase by definition. The indisputable fact is that "moon/qamar" is not the same as "full-moon/shahr". Like "al-qamar"/the moon, when the sun has a partial or full eclipse it is still the same "sun" that The God speaks about and it didn't cease to exist.

Quote from: "marie"
For me I distinguish the full moon (alqamar) and its phases in the light of 36:39 and they are two distinct things.


36:39 doesn't make such distinction. In fact, in 36:39 ALL the phases of the moon are "qamar" and even the "qamar" is LIKE an old curved sheath.

Quote from: "marie"
Quote
Every sign in the great reading is a good example, especially 7:142 where the term "meeqat" is used. We KNOW that "crescents" are used as "mawaqeet". Moses must have used the "crescent" too because the crescents are the timing devices made by The God for ALL people and this was not a special invention for the Arabs.


I disagree, this is your own deduction not supported by the quran, one can count 40 nights without using any crescent. Don't forget the sun, we can use it to count the number of days and years. Allah doesn't specify the sha-hr for moses, only 40 nights and the sun is sufficient for this task : 40 sunsets for 40 nights.


You are missing the point. The link is provided by the word "meeqat". It is "ahila(t)" that are "mawaqeet". As far as I know, the sun is never described as "meeqat/mawaqeet".

Moreover, if one uses the "hilal" for timing as The God told us, then the count becomes much simpler because one doesn't have to keep track of the days. All one has to do is to count two consecutive full-moons and then one "hilal" and there you have it, 40 nights. The God gives us the most robust and most efficient way possible.

Quote from: "marie"
Quote
It is IMPOSSIBLE for the crescents to a be timing mechanisms for 12 anything because there are in REALITY 24-26 crescents/"ahilat" in a year. Remember "ahila(t)"/crescents mean both the widening crescents and the thinning crescents.


This is what is said in 2:189. alahillat are a timing mechanism for 1) the people and as well as for 2) alhajj.


I think you mean to say "alahillat are a timing mechanism for people except Moses" according to your understanding of 7:142 above!

Quote from: "marie"
Alhajj is in the periods (ash-hurun) which have been appointed = the four restricted) (2:197)  
and I consider "sha-hr ramadan" as the first period of the four retricted period. Consequetly, alahillat are a timing mechanism for the period of ramadan.


But there aren't 12 "ahilat" in a year. There are on average 25 "ahilat" in a year. There is no link between "shahr" and "ahilat", linguistically and logically. Like in the case of Moses, the "hilal" is simply used to time the END of the 10 day period of "7ajj" and abstinence.

Quote from: "marie"
Some years have 13 full moons doesn't imply that there are 13 period per year. I try only to follow the instruction given in 2:189, alahillat and not the full moon which are a timing mechanism for the four restricted period and also for the first restricted period= the period of ramadan.


The "shahr"/full moon is literally the marker for the four ristricted full moons/"ash-hur" and I already explained the difference between number and count. If you don't see the difference between number and count, then you better forget about "ahilat" because there are in fact on average 25 "ahilat"/crescents in a year!

Moreover, the period between each two consecutive "hilals" is either about 3 days (between the thinning and the widening "hilals") or 25 days (between the widening and the thining "hilals"). Hence, there are in fact about 24 "between 2 "hilals"" periods in a year.

Quote from: "marie"
Quote
Sister Marie, you criticize but do not tell us what the period of "ramadan" or abstinence is. It is always better to provide an alternative when one criticizes something
.

Early automn according to the preservation of land-game (the hemisphere north).


Sister, you ignore that you are starting to count 4 "periods" from "ramadan", so according to you the hunting restriction is early fall-winter. Where I am in the Northern Hemisphere, fall is deer hunting season because that is when they are the most plentiful. Hence, your preservation of land-game argument is not factual.

Moreover, Quraysh, the people of the prophet were traveling during the winter (see chapter 106), therefore it is highly unlikely that winter is the time for "7ajj".

We are also told that the time at which a chapter of the great reading was descended (9:86) was a HOT time of the year (9:81).

Quote from: "marie"
Quote
Please tell us how long is the period of abstinence.


This period is between two new moons (hilal), in 2004 the period of early automn (ramadan) start from 15 october november till 13 november.


But "hilal" doesn't mean "new moon" and this is a meaning that you are simply forced to assume in order to make it seem as if your interpretation works. The "hilal" means crescent moon (which could be the thinning crescent or the widening crescent) and that is an indisputable fact. Hence, there are on average 25 crescents/"ahila(t)" in a year. The period between each two consecutive "hilals" is either about 3 days (between the thinning and the widening "hilals") or 25 days (between the widening and the thining "hilals"). Hence, there are in fact about 24 "between 2 "hilal"" periods in a year.

Quote from: "marie"
Quote
Sister, please translate the word "ramadan" for us. We have to abstain according to the command. We can't know the command without knowing the meaning.


- extreme heat, rain that comes just before autumn, the period ending summer and begining autumn.


Which meaning out of the above is confirmed by the great reading?

I look forward to your answer.

Paix and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: zenje on November 25, 2004, 07:12:06 AM
Peace brother Ayman,

I finally read the articles and the rest of the posts here, and I must commend you on a job well done! :D  From all the conjecture and guess work that we've been through, this is the closest to reality and truth that I've seen. So far, I don't think there would be any confusion in this system.

Just wanted to mention that I found this connection interesting;

2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.

2:196.   And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a sacrifice. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.

7:142.   And We appointed for Moses thirty nights and completed them with ten, so the appointed time of his Lord was completed at forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron: ?Be my successor with my people and be upright, and do not follow the path of the corrupters.?


And this is my own addition... which probably doesn't make much sense. :oops:  

28:27.   He said: ?I wish you to marry one of my two daughters, on condition that you work for me through eight pilgrimage periods; if you complete them to ten, it will be voluntary on your part. I do not wish to make this matter too difficult for you. You will find me, God willing, of the righteous.?
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 25, 2004, 12:50:29 PM
Peace brother Zein,

Thank you for your kind comments and encouragement. It is you who originally reminded me and got me started thinking about this issue again after I had given up. :)

You bring some more excellent clarifying evidence from the great reading. I will add this excellent evidence to the article.

With all best wishes and peace,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on November 25, 2004, 06:46:15 PM
Peace Ayman, all,

Quote from: "ayman"
2:185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.


This expression "let him abstain it" doesn't mean to start abstinence when we witness "ashasha-hr" but to abstain sha-hr ramadan (IT) which is a period like the other retricted periods. There is no starting in this verse but abstainning a fixed period : sha-hr ramadan

To abstain the full moon or the new moon doesn't make sence.

Whatever the solar or lunar calendar, there are 12 periods per years, what is wrong with this?

The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. (9:36)
This a fact and not an approximation, there is only twelve periods in God?s record.

In 2:187, Allah explains us how to fast, I think it should be valid for all people whatever our geographical situation.
We cannot apply this "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" for some areas  during some seasons because  there is no night or no day.

Fasting is decreed for us as it was decreed for those before us (2:183), we have to follow the same commands.

Allah always fixes the days of fasting : 3 days (5:89), 3+7 days (2:196), two sha-hr/period (4:92, 58:4). The period is also fixed in 2:185 which is the period of ramadan.

2:197. Alhajj is in periods which have been appointed. So whosoever decides to perform (alhajj) in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.

Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatun faman farada feehinna alhajja fala rafathawala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajjiwama tafAAaloo min khayrin yaAAlamhu Allahuwatazawwadoo fa-inna khayra alzzadi alttaqwawaittaqooni ya olee al-albabi


From the verse above, it is clear that Allah leaves it to our convenience to choose in which period(the four restricted periods) to perform Alhajj, we are free to do it at any moment during the restricted period we choose, to start "alhajj" when we observe the full moon or other phases is not a condition.


Quote
But "hilal" doesn't mean "new moon" and this is a meaning that you are simply forced to assume in order to make it seem as if your interpretation works.



Hallatun can mean the first rain

Hallatu alqamar = the start of the moon (t0)

In order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere, the season of autumn is the best period to attain this goal. This is why I choose early automn as meaning for ramadan instead of extrem heat.

The weather is also hot during automn season in some countries.

The word "meeqat" is used through the quran several times. In my opinion,there is no connection between the crescent and meeqat neither in 7:142 nor in 7:155, 26:38, 44:40, 56:50, 78:17.  

Another example the word mawqoot is used for salat and it refers to the sun movement.

Quote
It is "ahila(t)" that are "mawaqeet". As far as I know, the sun is never described as "meeqat/mawaqeet".



In 7:142, Allah fixed 40 nights, the complete term (meeqat) = 40 nights. How simple to count 40 nights? we have only to abserve 40 sunsets. You complicate the problem, both the moon and the sun serve to count the years, and measure the time (17:12, 6:96).


Allah knows best

Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 26, 2004, 04:47:59 AM
Peace sister Marie, all,

Quote from: "marie"
This expression "let him abstain it" doesn't mean to start abstinence when we witness "ashasha-hr" but to abstain sha-hr ramadan (IT) which is a period like the other retricted periods. There is no starting in this verse but abstainning a fixed period : sha-hr ramadan

To abstain the full moon or the new moon doesn't make sence.


In 2:185 we are directly and clearly told to abstain it and to complete the count of the days (also previously talked about in 2:184). If I tell you "abstain today and complete 10 days", what doesn't make sense about that?

It doesn't make sense to you because you ignore the Arabic meaning of "shahr" and wrongly interpret it as the fuzzy "period", which could be anything since even half a day is a period.

Quote from: "marie"
Whatever the solar or lunar calendar, there are 12 periods per years, what is wrong with this?


Please do the math sister. 365/12 gives a greater number of days than the lunar cycle. Hence, the 12 lunar cycle you are proposing is not the 12 "shahr" talked about in 9:36. You will remain stuck here until you see that there is a difference between "3adad" and "3ida(t)" and that The God doesn't use them haphazardly.

Quote from: "marie"
The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. (9:36)
This a fact and not an approximation, there is only twelve periods in God?s record.


A day is a "period" and even half a day is a "period". So your saying that there is twelve periods doesn't tell us anything. You are forced to be vague because you know very well that there aren't 12 new-moon cycle in a year and that is a fact. This is why the so-called Islamic calendar that you are advocating is not in-sync with the year. You are advocating the current traditional calendar without knowing because you then contradict yourself and say that "ramadan" is in the autumn, which means that you would have to add a 13th month every three years to keep the lunar cycle in sync with the seasons.

Quote from: "marie"
In 2:187, Allah explains us how to fast, I think it should be valid for all people whatever our geographical situation.
We cannot apply this "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" for some areas  during some seasons because  there is no night or no day.

Fasting is decreed for us as it was decreed for those before us (2:183), we have to follow the same commands.


I agree.

Quote from: "marie"
Allah always fixes the days of fasting : 3 days (5:89), 3+7 days (2:196), two sha-hr/period (4:92, 58:4). The period is also fixed in 2:185 which is the period of ramadan.


"Period" could be anything. Please be specific sister. If you think that "shahr" means "the period between two new moons" then say it but then your explanation would contradict 9:36 and your "ramadan" would be disconnected from the seasons.

According to my understanding, The God gives the complete info we need in 2:185.

Quote from: "marie"
2:197. Alhajj is in periods which have been appointed. So whosoever decides to perform (alhajj) in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.

Alhajju ashhurun maAAloomatun faman farada feehinna alhajja fala rafathawala fusooqa wala jidala fee alhajjiwama tafAAaloo min khayrin yaAAlamhu Allahuwatazawwadoo fa-inna khayra alzzadi alttaqwawaittaqooni ya olee al-albabi

From the verse above, it is clear that Allah leaves it to our convenience to choose in which period(the four restricted periods) to perform Alhajj, we are free to do it at any moment during the restricted period we choose, to start "alhajj" when we observe the full moon or other phases is not a condition.


So now you change your mind and say that "when we observe the full moon or other phases is not a condition", in other words it is any period and that the "ahila(t)" are not timing devices for "al-7ajj"/the debate anymore. I am sorry sister but the "ahila(t)" definitely time the "7ajj" according to 2:189. My interpretation is that they time it by telling us when it ends.

Quote from: "marie"
Hallatun can mean the first rain


That is not a meaning that is supported by the context in the great reading.

Quote from: "marie"
Hallatu alqamar = the start of the moon (t0)


Here is the meaning given by all classical Arabic dictionaries for "hilal"/plural:"ahila(t)":

الهِلالُ: غُرَّةُ القَمَرِ أو لِلَيْلَتَيْنِ أو إلى ثلاثٍ أو إلى سبعٍ وللَيْلَتَيْنِ من آخِرِ الشهرِ سِت وعشرينَ وسبعٍ وعشرينَ

Clearly, it doesn't mean the new moon but it means the crescent moon in general.

Notice how you say "hallatu al-qamar" so do you finally admit that "al-qamar" doesn't mean full-moon but simply means "moon". Please close this issue.

Quote from: "marie"
In order to preserve wildlife in the northern hemisphere, the season of autumn is the best period to attain this goal.


Who says so? I already gave you the example of autumn being the best time for deer hunting in the northern hemisphere. Please give any scientific references to what you are claiming.

Quote from: "marie"
This is why I choose early automn as meaning for ramadan instead of extrem heat.


Since you start in autumn, I think that you mean to say autumn - early winter. Besides your alleged restricted new-moons would float every year and would not always occur in autumn so until you somehow fix this error, you can forget about autumn.

Quote from: "marie"
The weather is also hot during automn season in some countries.


No it is not what people normally associate with heat. In fact, in Arabia autumn is the rainy season.

Quote from: "marie"
The word "meeqat" is used through the quran several times. In my opinion,there is no connection between the crescent and meeqat neither in 7:142 nor in 7:155, 26:38, 44:40, 56:50, 78:17.


In all those instances (except 7:142 and 7:155) we are told about the specific timing device used. for example, we are told in another verse that the meeqat in 26:38 is "ywm al-zinat" (the time/day of beautification). As for the others, their timing is specifically "the day of judgment". In 7:142 "ahilat"/crescents, the general "meeqat" for people, is most likely to have been used because it is also talking about NIGHTS. We know that nights is when the crescent would be apparent.

Quote from: "marie"
Another example the word mawqoot is used for salat and it refers to the sun movement.


It is used for "kitab"/book and we are told about the specific times for learning the book/"salat" in the great reading.

Quote from: "marie"
In 7:142, Allah fixed 40 nights, the complete term (meeqat) = 40 nights. How simple to count 40 nights? we have only to abserve 40 sunsets. You complicate the problem, both the moon and the sun serve to count the years, and measure the time (17:12, 6:96).


Which is easiest and more efficient? counting 40 nights or counting 2 full-moons and 10 nights (or until the "hilal" stage appears). The answer is clear.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on November 26, 2004, 06:10:19 PM
Peace brother Ayman,

In the light of the quran AAiddat or AAadad is a number and AAiddat is a fixed number:

The count (AAiddata) of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth (9:36)

so as to circumvent the count (AAiddata) that God has made restricted (9:37)

four of them are restricted (9:36)

Say: ?My Lord is fully aware of their number (AAiddatihim), none know them except for a few.? (18:22)

As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim (AAiddatuhunna) shall be three months.(65:4)

You cannot deny that there are 12 periods per years whatever the solar or lunar calendar and this is not a coincidence. It is normal there is a gap between the two system and that doesn't mean they are false. It is simple to align the two system if we want that the month of ramadan corresponds to the same season (early automn or extreme heat..).

I try to use the quranic evidence and I don't trust the meaning given by the dictionnaries neither for salat nor for sha-hr...

I understand your view and I have mine.

I prefer to stop the debate at this stage looking for other quranic argument Insha'Allah. I believe the clear response is in the quran.

I always learn from your good articles.

Thanks

Peace and best wishes

Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 27, 2004, 03:22:40 AM
Peace sister Marie,

Thank you for helping in validating the article and improving our understanding through the debate.

Quote from: "marie"
You cannot deny that there are 12 periods per years whatever the solar or lunar calendar and this is not a coincidence. It is normal there is a gap between the two system and that doesn't mean they are false. It is simple to align the two system if we want that the month of ramadan corresponds to the same season (early automn or extreme heat..).


I agree that it is simple to align the full-moons with the seasons. All we have to do is count only 12 full-moons and not count 13 even in the occasional year where their absolute number is 13.

You say that it is simple to align the two systems and yet you do not tell us anything about this simple alignment method or how to do it without violating 9:36-37. I look forward to hearing your simple solution when you figure it out.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on November 27, 2004, 08:48:21 AM
Peace brother Ayman,

Quote from: "ayman"
Peace sister Marie,

Thank you for helping in validating the article and improving our understanding through the debate.


I think you speak about the verse about quraysh. At school we learned that there is four seasons : 1) khareef (automn), 2) shita (winter), 3) rabi3 (springs) and 4) sayf (summer).
You have said that "qayzh" is after sayf and before automn but according what I have learned, this is automn  which is between sayf (summer) and shita/(winter). There is no reference of qayth in the quran.
The names of the lunar calendar periods have not systematically a link with the seasons.

Which of the two definitions should we believe?

For the moment In the light of the quranic arguments, I I lean towards early automn.
Another problem, we cannot apply 2:187 in some area on the earth where there is no day or night during winter or summer and cannot  adjust 2:187 for some people.

Quote
Quote from: "marie"
You cannot deny that there are 12 periods per years whatever the solar or lunar calendar and this is not a coincidence. It is normal there is a gap between the two system and that doesn't mean they are false. It is simple to align the two system if we want that the month of ramadan corresponds to the same season (early automn or extreme heat..).


I agree that it is simple to align the full-moons with the seasons. All we have to do is count only 12 full-moons and not count 13 even in the occasional year where their absolute number is 13.


Correct me if I'm wrong, the years where we count 13 full moons that doesn't mean there is 13 periods/months. I also think that sah-hr means period and not full moon.

AAiddat in the light of the quran is also equal to twelve (9:36), we cannot say that AAiddat is a number < or = 10.

To complete the count refers to the period of ramadan (2:185) and not to 10 days.

Quote
You say that it is simple to align the two systems and yet you do not tell us anything about this simple alignment method or how to do it without violating 9:36-37. I look forward to hearing your simple solution when you figure it out.


By adding the thirteenth month/period, I don't consider this addition as a violation of 9:36-37 because the 13rd period is an imaginary period which doesn't exist, it is added only to align the two systems.

The calendular and solar systems have only twelve periods.

Allah knows best

Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 27, 2004, 12:38:11 PM
Peace sister Marie,

Quote from: "marie"
I think you speak about the verse about quraysh. At school we learned that there is four seasons : 1) khareef (automn), 2) shita (winter), 3) rabi3 (springs) and 4) sayf (summer).
You have said that "qayzh" is after sayf and before automn but according what I have learned, this is automn  which is between sayf (summer) and shita/(winter). There is no reference of qayth in the quran.


There is no reference to "kharif" or "qayth" in the great reading. This doesn't mean that those seasons don't exist.

What you have been taught in the school is Modern Arabic defintions NOT Classical Arabic definitions. We know from archeological and linguistic evidence that the Arabs used 4, 5, and 6 season systems. Even their 4 season system was different than the modern 4 season system that you were taught in school. Here is what Lisan Al-3arab says about the definition of the seasons in the 4 season system that some Arabs used:

العرب تقول : السنة أَربعة أَزمان , ولكل زمن منها ثلاثة أَشهر , وهي فصول السنة : منها فصل الصيف وهو فصلُ ربيع الكَلإِ آذارُ ونَيْسانُ وأَيّارُ , ثم بعده فصل القيظ حَزِيرانُ وتَموزُ وآب , ثم بعده فصل الخريف أَيْلُولُ وتَشْرِين وتَشْرين , ثم بعده فصل الشتاء كانُونُ وكانونُ وسُباطُ .

From the above, you can see that even for the Arabs that used 4 seasons "sayf" was spring, "qayth" was summer, "kharif" was autumn, and "shitaa" was winter.

Please remember that what we are after is not how present day school children and modern Arabs understand terms such as "sayf" but how a "pre-quranic" Arab hearing Chapter 106 would have understood it.

Quote from: "marie"
For the moment In the light of the quranic arguments, I I lean towards early automn.


You can lean towards anything you want but you have to consider the fact that when a chapter of the great reading was descended (9:86) was a HOT time of the year (9:81). You can't ignore that.

Quote from: "marie"
Another problem, we cannot apply 2:187 in some area on the earth where there is no day or night during winter or summer and cannot  adjust 2:187 for some people.


According to your argument, "in some area on the earth where there is no day or night during winter or summer" there would also be no "salat al-fajr" or "salat al-3ishaa" for some people. Of course, this is incorrect.

Quote from: "marie"
Correct me if I'm wrong, the years where we count 13 full moons that doesn't mean there is 13 periods/months. I also think that sah-hr means period and not full moon.


If you take "shahr" to mean "period between any two phases of the moon" then in every year there is going to be more than 12 periods, there will be 12.3 periods in your calendar. If you take "shahr" to mean "full moon" then you would get exactly 12 full moons and you would get a year with 13 full-moons every three years, however as I indicated since we are talking about "3idat" and not "3adad", you simply don't count the 13th moon. The would automatically adjust the full-moons to coincide with the seasons.

Quote from: "marie"
AAiddat in the light of the quran is also equal to twelve (9:36), we cannot say that AAiddat is a number < or = 10.


You are correct. However, in 2:184 we see the term "ma3doodat"/few/counted which we don't see in 9:36. The completion of the "3idat" of "ma3doodat" is always 10 in the great reading and brother Zein already kindly provided the references.

Quote from: "marie"
To complete the count refers to the period of ramadan (2:185) and not to 10 days.


Why does The God need to say "complete the count" if as you claim the count is a known period between two new-moons. This would be redundant.

Also, keep in mind that you have ZERO evidence for your "ahilat" meaning of "new-moons" since ALL the dictionaries say that they mean "crescents" in general (both thinning and widening crescents). Hence, if we take your interpretation for a period being the period between two "hilals" then it could be either 3 days or a median of 25 days.

Quote from: "marie"
By adding the thirteenth month/period, I don't consider this addition as a violation of 9:36-37 because the 13rd period is an imaginary period which doesn't exist, it is added only to align the two systems.


If you interpret "shahr" to mean period and see no difference between "3idat" and "3adad" then you are indeed violating 9:36. As you said, you are now counting 13 periods while 9:36 says to count only 12. I don't know what you mean by "imaginary". During that 30 day "period"  will you just imagine that time stopped and that reality ceased to exist for 30 days?

Quote from: "marie"
The calendular and solar systems have only twelve periods.


If you take period to mean "period between two new moons" and you want to keep it in line with the seasons then your calendar system has 13 periods in some years. The Georgian solar calendar has some arbitrary periods with 31 days and others with 30 and 28/29 days to make them 12. The so-called Islamic calendar has 12.3 months every year and not 12. Only in the system that I understood from the great reading do we count EXACTLY 12 full moons EVERY SINGLE year and it is in-sync with the seasons.

I hope this helps and as usual The God knows best.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on November 27, 2004, 07:58:02 PM
Peace brother Ayman,

Several points in your reasoning remains fuzzy and approximate. A clear soklution should be based on all evidence quranic and this is not the case because that doesn't fit your final conclusion.

We have not the same understanding of AAiddat and maAAdoodat (2:80, 2:184, 2:203, 3:24, 11:8, 12:20). AAiddat could be 3, 4 or 12...etc
MaAAdoodat depends on the context of the verse.

In the light of the context, "ayyam maAAdoodat" refers to sha-hr ramadan.

There is no AAiddat or maAAdoodat in  28:27 and 7:142.

We have not the same understanding of the word meeqat, it depends also on the context of each verse (7:142, 7:155, 26:38, 44:40, 56:50, 78:17). Salat (timed book) is a good example.

We have not the same understanding of the verse 9:36.

Agree to disagree for the moment.

Thanks for patience and perseverence.

Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 28, 2004, 04:18:51 AM
Peace sister Marie,

Quote from: "marie"
We have not the same understanding of AAiddat and maAAdoodat (2:80, 2:184, 2:203, 3:24, 11:8, 12:20). AAiddat could be 3, 4 or 12...etc


I agree.

Quote from: "marie"
MaAAdoodat depends on the context of the verse.

In the light of the context, "ayyam maAAdoodat" refers to sha-hr ramadan.


Notice how unlike "3idat" that you are clear about, you don't tell us what "ma3doodat" means. Instead of speculation, please give an example from the great reading where "ma3doodat" is used to mean a number over 10. You can't use 2:184 because then you are building a circular argument.

Quote from: "marie"
There is no AAiddat or maAAdoodat in  28:27 and 7:142.


Is the number 10 in those verses not a counted number?

Sister, you have got to use some deductive reasoning and you can't expect the answer to be presented on a silver platter as "completing the "3idat" of "ma3doodat" = 10".

Quote from: "marie"
We have not the same understanding of the word meeqat, it depends also on the context of each verse (7:142, 7:155, 26:38, 44:40, 56:50, 78:17). Salat (timed book) is a good example.


Actually, I have the same understanding as you of "meeqat" but it is you who doesn't have the same understanding as me. This is for the simple reason that I see "meeqat" as the timing of the START and/or END of something while you see it ONLY as the start. Therefore my understanding encompasses your understanding. So far, you have brought zero evidence that "meeqat" only means the start of something and never the end. The example of "salat" actually completely negates your understanding because "salat" has a START and an END.

Quote from: "marie"
We have not the same understanding of the verse 9:36.

Agree to disagree for the moment.


The only reason why we have different understanding of 9:36 is because you don't see a difference between "3idat" and "3adad". On the other hand, I believe and logically one can see that The God doesn't use those two different terms haphazardly. Let's at least agree on that.

We also agree that when one counts more or less than EXACTLY 12 "shahr", one would be in violation of 9:36. In the system as I understand it, one ALWAYS counts EXACTLY 12 "full-moons" EVERY year, while in your understanding because you don't see the difference between "3idat" and "3adad", you are forced to count 13 in some years to keep your alleged "period between two new moons" in line with the seasons.

Thank you for your patience and input. I hope that we agree before the full-moon after the summer solstice so that we can all abstain in the correct timeframe. Luckily, we still have plenty of time. :)

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on November 28, 2004, 05:03:54 AM
Peace brother Ayman,

Quote
Notice how unlike "3idat" that you are clear about, you don't tell us what "ma3doodat" means. Instead of speculation, please give an example from the great reading where "ma3doodat" is used to mean a number over 10. You can't use 2:184 because then you are building a circular argument.


In the light of the quran, maAAdoodat doesn't mean a known number but a few days and not specifically 10 days (2:80, 3:24, 11:8, 12:20).

I think sha-hr ramadan is also a counted number of the days and to complete alAAiddat is to complete the count of sha-hr ramadan.


You are wrong when you said that I see the word meeqat ONLY as the start. I consider it both the start and the end of one period.
"salat" has a START and an END in the same way than Hilal which is also the start and the end of sha-hr ramadan.

Quote
Thank you for your patience and input. I hope that we agree before the full-moon after the summer solstice so that we can all abstain in the correct timeframe. Luckily, we still have plenty of time.  :)


This is my deeper whishes, I'm sure we can converge to the same understanding Insha'Allah.

For the moment, I have not the response to several points.




Let us suppose that sha-hr means the full moon, I will give you some arguments which will please you  :twisted:

Sha-hr ramadan in which the quran was sent down as a  guide and especially during the night of alqadr (97:1)

If sha-hr means full moon, maybe the night of  alqadr (97:1-3) refers to the night where the full moon starts his transformation and becomes (qaddarnahu) through stages (manazila) a crescent like an old curved date-stalk (36:39)

97:1 Behold, We have revealed it in the Night of alqadri.
Inna anzalnahu fee laylati alqadri

97:2 Ah, what will enlighten you what it is, the Night of alqadri!
Wama adraka ma laylatu alqadri

I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr: 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon  :twisted:


97:3 The Night of alqadri is better than a thousand months. (A day of enlightenment is better than a life-time of ignorance).
Laylatu alqadri khayrun min alfi shahrin

36:39 And the moon: We have measured for it phases until it becomes (a crescent) like an old curved date-stalk.
Waalqamara qaddarnahu manazilahatta AAada kaalAAurjooni alqadeemi

Peace
Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 28, 2004, 10:45:24 AM
Peace sister Marie,

Quote from: "marie"
In the light of the quran, maAAdoodat doesn't mean a known number but a few days and not specifically 10 days (2:80, 3:24, 11:8, 12:20).


I totally agree, "maAAdoodat" doesn't mean a known number but a few days (a "few" by definition is between 3-10) and not specifically 10 days.

Quote from: "marie"
I think sha-hr ramadan is also a counted number of the days and to complete alAAiddat is to complete the count of sha-hr ramadan.


To complete "alAAiddat" of "maAAdoodat", which we already agree means a few (between 3-10) means complete/reach the maximum of a few/"maAAdoodat" which is 10.

Quote from: "marie"
You are wrong when you said that I see the word meeqat ONLY as the start. I consider it both the start and the end of one period.
"salat" has a START and an END in the same way than Hilal which is also the start and the end of sha-hr ramadan.


But "ahilat" are only described as "mawaqeet" for people and for "7ajj" not for "ramadan". We agree that the term "ramadan" is season related. In other words, scorching heat or in your case the time between "sayf" and "kharif" (which is called "qayth" according to Lisan Al-3arab).

The term "mawaqeet" is the timing of the start, end, or start and end. One cannot use "hilal" to time any 12 periods because there are actually 25 "hilals" on average in a year. Please remember that "hilal" denotes both thinning and widening crescents.

One cannot use "hilal" to time both the start and end of the several 40 day periods talked about in the great reading or the 10 day period of "7ajj" and of abstinence. Hence, it must be that the "hilal" in those cases is used to time either the end or the beginning. Given the evidence, it is most likely to be used as a timing device for the end of "7ajj". Remember 2:189 and the example of ENTERING through the obvious/clear and apparent one front door ("the obvious one full-moon") and not the non-obvious back of the house ("the unobvious crescents"). However, there is nothing that says that we can't EXIT the house through the unobvious back doors.

Quote from: "marie"
This is my deeper whishes, I'm sure we can converge to the same understanding Insha'Allah.

For the moment, I have not the response to several points.

Let us suppose that sha-hr means the full moon, I will give you some arguments which will please you  :twisted:

Sha-hr ramadan in which the quran was sent down as a  guide and especially during the night of alqadr (97:1)

If sha-hr means full moon, maybe the night of  alqadr (97:1-3) refers to the night where the full moon starts his transformation and becomes (qaddarnahu) through stages (manazila) a crescent like an old curved date-stalk (36:39)

97:1 Behold, We have revealed it in the Night of alqadri.
Inna anzalnahu fee laylati alqadri

97:2 Ah, what will enlighten you what it is, the Night of alqadri!
Wama adraka ma laylatu alqadri

I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr: 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon  :twisted:


97:3 The Night of alqadri is better than a thousand months. (A day of enlightenment is better than a life-time of ignorance).
Laylatu alqadri khayrun min alfi shahrin

36:39 And the moon: We have measured for it phases until it becomes (a crescent) like an old curved date-stalk.
Waalqamara qaddarnahu manazilahatta AAada kaalAAurjooni alqadeemi


C'est magnifique. :) Thank you sister for your excellent observation. When we reach the proper understanding everything falls into place and the age old mystery of "laylatu al-qadr" solves itself. I didn't even notice that the article inadvertently solved when exactly "laylatu al-qadr" occurs until after I had completed it.

Paix and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on November 28, 2004, 10:02:47 PM
Peace brother Ayman,

I did not know that you speak French, it's wonderful  8)  

About the night of alqadr; the night when we start probably the measure of the counted days "ayyam maAAdoodat"; below another verse which can corroborate this meanings :

Quote
6:96. Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
 
Faliqu al-isbahiwajaAAala allayla sakanan waalshshamsa waalqamara husbanan thalika taqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi


The same word "taqdeer" is also used in  36:38, 41:12, 76:16

The night of alqadr is the first night of siyam (ramadan), the God explains us what is permitted during the the night of abstinence :

1) to approach your women sexually
2) And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn;

Allah said that the night of alqadr  is peaceful until the coming of dawn (97:5)


I notice that there is two commun points between 97-1-5, 89:1-2 and 2:187:

1) The night
and
2) the dawn

Quote
89:1. By the dawn.
Waalfajri

89:2. And the ten nights.
Walayalin AAashrin


We can see a connection between these verses :twisted:

89:3.And the even and the odd.
WaalshshafAAi waalwatri

Maybe the even and the odd corresponds to ten night and ten days of siyam, for example two nights corresponds to one day and two days (2D) corresponds to three nights (3N)...etc


2N (even)---> 1D (odd)

3N---> 2D

4N---> 3D

5N---> 4D

6N---> 5D

7N---> 6D

8N---> 7D

9N---> 8D

10N---> 10D (an even number of days and nights)


Looking for your toughts

Thanks

Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 29, 2004, 05:29:34 AM
Peace sister Marie,

Quote from: "marie"
I did not know that you speak French, it's wonderful  8)


Quand j'?tais petit, la langue Fran?aise ?tait ma seconde langue apr?s l'Arabe. Mais maintenant je manque du pratique et ce n'est plus facile pour moi. Heureusement, mon ?pouse est un professeur de Fran?ais. :)  

Quote from: "marie"
About the night of alqadr; the night when we start probably the measure of the counted days "ayyam maAAdoodat"; below another verse which can corroborate this meanings :

Quote
6:96. Initiator of morning and Maker of the night to reside in; and the sun and the moon for counting. Such is the measure of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.
 
Faliqu al-isbahiwajaAAala allayla sakanan waalshshamsa waalqamara husbanan thalika taqdeeru alAAazeezi alAAaleemi


The same word "taqdeer" is also used in  36:38, 41:12, 76:16

The night of alqadr is the first night of siyam (ramadan), the God explains us what is permitted during the the night of abstinence :

1) to approach your women sexually
2) And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn;

Allah said that the night of alqadr  is peaceful until the coming of dawn (97:5)


I notice that there is two commun points between 97-1-5, 89:1-2 and 2:187:

1) The night
and
2) the dawn


Sister, this is very enlightening. With your permission, I would like to incorporate your thoughtful and excellent observations in the article.

Quote from: "marie"
Quote
89:1. By the dawn.
Waalfajri

89:2. And the ten nights.
Walayalin AAashrin


We can see a connection between these verses :twisted:

89:3.And the even and the odd.
WaalshshafAAi waalwatri

Maybe the even and the odd corresponds to ten night and ten days of siyam, for example two nights corresponds to one day and two days (2D) corresponds to three nights (3N)...etc

2N (even)---> 1D (odd)

3N---> 2D

4N---> 3D

5N---> 4D

6N---> 5D

7N---> 6D

8N---> 7D

9N---> 8D

10N---> 10D (an even number of days and nights)


1 night of destiny/night of the abstinence/night of the full moon of scorching heat + 10 nights = 11 (odd) nights = 10 (even) days of abstinence

It makes perfect sense. Merci Beaucoup.

Paix,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on November 29, 2004, 07:50:01 PM
Peace brother Ayman,

Your French is perfect :)

Quote
Sister, this is very enlightening. With your permission, I would like to incorporate your thoughtful and excellent observations in the article.


No need to ask the permission.

All praise to the God

Quote
1 night of destiny/night of the abstinence/night of the full moon of scorching heat + 10 nights = 11 (odd) nights = 10 (even) days of abstinence


Just a little remark, in 89:2, we read "And the ten nights" which is even night and not 11 (odd) nights. Correct me if I'm wrong,  to abstain ten days we need only 10 nights:


1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9........10 Ten nights (89:2)


......1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9..........10 Ten days (counted days 2:184)

1: the night of alqadr; the night of the first days 1 of abstinence


10: the 10th night is the night of the 10th days 10 of abstinence


In the light of the quran, the God always speaks about the night before the days.


Peace and all best wishes

Your sister Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 30, 2004, 03:21:38 AM
Peace sister Marie,

Thank you for your kind help sister. :)

Quote from: "marie"
Just a little remark, in 89:2, we read "And the ten nights" which is even night and not 11 (odd) nights. Correct me if I'm wrong,  to abstain ten days we need only 10 nights:


97:1-5 we hear the night of the measure being peace until "al-fajr".

89:1-2 we hear about "al-fajr" and then ten nights.

Let's call the night of "qadr"/measure Q.

Q to fajr........ 1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9........10 fajr + Ten nights (89:1-2)

................1........2........3........4........5........6........7........8........9..........10 Ten days (counted days 2:184)

Q: the night of alqadr; the night before the first day 1 of abstinence

Remember we have to witness the "shahr"/full moon first before we abstain.

10: the 10th night is the night of the 10th day 10 of abstinence with which we complete the abstinence as per 2:187 ("atimu al-siyam ila al-layl").

On that 10th night we would see the thinning crescent signaling the end of the abstinence and hence not abstain the next day (Just in case we forget to keep track of the number of days).

Quote from: "marie"
In the light of the quran, the God always speaks about the night before the days.


I agree. However, in the case of abstinence in 2:187 we hear "wa atimu al-siyam ila al-layl", it is completed with "the night". So we have to complete it with one more night. However, the first night of measure is not counted in the 10 nights because we start counting 10 nights from after the "fajr" of the night of measure.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on November 30, 2004, 06:07:53 AM
Peace brother Ayman,

Quote
In the case of abstinence in 2:187 we hear "wa atimu al-siyam ila al-layl", it is completed with "the night". So we have to complete it with one more night. However, the first night of measure is not counted in the 10 nights because we start counting 10 nights from after the "fajr" of the night of measure.


Agree,  the night of "qadr"/measure is the night before the first day of abstinence, but we start to follow what is said in 2:187 from the night "qadr"/measure  in other word :
1) It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually.
2) And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn

The night after the 10th day of abstinence is an ordinary night where we have no obligation to follow about eating, drinking and the sexual relations with our spouse.

In my opinion, the night of "qadr"/measure is the first night of abstinence and the 10th night is the 10th nights of abstinence.

We have to complete the 10th day of abstinence until the night not with one more night.  The 11st night  should be not counted because it is an ordinary night where we have no obligation (2:187 is not applied for the 11st night).

We start our abstinence after the "fajr" of the night of measure which is according the verse 2:187 the night of abstinence or the night of the first day of abstinence "laylat assiyam", the night and the day of abstinence are closely linked.

When we witness the full moon of the night  of "qadr"/measure, we have to abstain it and wehave to apply 2:187 from this first night.

Consequently, 10 nights and ten days of abstinence according  the quran.

I wonder a question, if to complete the count is equivalent to ten dfays, the re is no need to witness the hilal to stop abstinence.

According 2:189, there is no mention to use hilal/cresnet for abstinence.


Looking for your comment

Peace
Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: zenje on November 30, 2004, 07:06:19 AM
Brother Ayman and Sister Marie,

I would just like to say that your patience in the debate/study is commendable and an example for us to follow.

Peace be with you.

Zein
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on November 30, 2004, 02:24:50 PM
Peace sister Marie,

I would agree with your understanding except a problem comes up when we compare 2:187, 97:5 and 89:1-3.

The "fajr" in 89:1, 2:187, and 97:5 is probably the same one.

Quote from: "marie"
We start our abstinence after the "fajr" of the night of measure which is according the verse 2:187 the night of abstinence or the night of the first day of abstinence "laylat assiyam", the night and the day of abstinence are closely linked.


I agree that we start after the "fajr". Verses 89:1-3 speak of "fajr" and then "10 nights". This is most likely "fajr" and then 10 nights afterwards.

Night of measure/abstinence to "fajr" - "fajr" and 10 nights
(97:1-5, 2:187) - (89:1-2)

"fajr" is common.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on November 30, 2004, 06:52:15 PM
Peace Brs Ayman, Zein,

Quote from: "zenje"
Brother Ayman and Sister Marie,

I would just like to say that your patience in the debate/study is commendable and an example for us to follow.

Peace be with you.

Zein


Thanks for your nice words. All the readers of this debate are so patient  :)

Our Lord grant us patience, and make firm our foothold.

Quote from: "ayman"

I agree that we start after the "fajr". Verses 89:1-3 speak of "fajr" and then "10 nights". This is most likely "fajr" and then 10 nights afterwards.

Night of measure/abstinence to "fajr" - "fajr" and 10 nights
(97:1-5, 2:187) - (89:1-2)


I arrived to the same conclusion than you this morning, praise to the God :)

Thanks
Marie
Title: 2:187, 11:114 & 17:78
Post by: marie on November 30, 2004, 10:27:16 PM
Salam brother Ayman, all,

If we should follow the same rules, I think we cannot avoid the following questions :

Abstinence:
1) How can we apply this commands "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" if we live in area where there is no night?

The timed salat
2)  How can we observe the salat at dawn and at dusk (11:114 and 17:78 ) in the area where there is no night or no days; in it we cannot see the sunset or the sunrise  ?


All comment appreciated.

Thanks

Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: mz357 on December 01, 2004, 02:34:46 AM
Salaams marie,                      

you will figure it out sooner or later:

The fish can't swim on land,and neither are the eskimos going to make their houses of brick,if they only have ice Allahs will show them how to adopt ice.

And the quran can't be applied every where as it stands , but with modifications it can.

But isn't it available in modified forms to all nations - but not through the arabs but from Allah.And some of these forms are far better then the form of the arabic quran,As people have progressed so Allah has given them improved versions of the quran.And isn't this why even the arabs are followers nowadays.

No reply required , thanks,Salaams.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on December 01, 2004, 02:44:37 AM
peace
Title: Re: 2:187, 11:114 & 17:78
Post by: ayman on December 01, 2004, 05:43:45 AM
Peace sister Marie, all,

Quote from: "marie"
If we should follow the same rules, I think we cannot avoid the following questions :

Abstinence:
1) How can we apply this commands "And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night" if we live in area where there is no night?

The timed salat
2)  How can we observe the salat at dawn and at dusk (11:114 and 17:78 ) in the area where there is no night or no days; in it we cannot see the sunset or the sunrise  ?


I think that to answer those questions we need to look at the purpose of the timed learning connection/"salat".

First, let's start with the learning connection/"salat". The purpose is to remember The God and we accomplish this by studying His signs. The God gave us the best times to accomplish the purpose.

The time of "fajr" is when light starts to emerge and we wake up with a clear mind. I have personally made most of the big breakthroughs in my understanding of the great reading and even in my professional work during that time.

The time after sunset is when we generally get off work and go home. This is also a relaxing time where we can study the great reading more effectively.

Now if we live in an area where it is mostly dark or light for part of the year or if we travel on an airplane or in outerspace, then we should focus on the purpose and do our "salat"/learning connection at the beginning and end of our day in sync with our internal clock in order to best accomplish the purpose.

As for abstinence, the purpose is self control (please feel free to add your thoughts on the purpose of abstinence). It is self-control during the times when we are active (between dawn and sunset). Hence, in an area where it is mostly dark or light, we should also abstain during the time we are normally active to accomplish the purpose.

I hope this helps and all comments would be appreciated.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Re: 2:187, 11:114 & 17:78
Post by: marie on December 01, 2004, 08:16:59 AM
Peace brother Ayman,


Quote
Now if we live in an area where it is mostly dark or light for part of the year or if we travel on an airplane or in outerspace, then we should focus on the purpose and do our "salat"/learning connection at the beginning and end of our day in sync with our internal clock in order to best accomplish the purpose.


You are right.

I think the dawn and the dusk are a temporal indication, the goal is to consecrate a moment to read and study the divine message and His signs before starting and at the end of our activities, this is a good food mind.

In73:20 we are told to study what we can of the quran and there is no mention of time; one can choose the good moment in harmony whith his activity to do it :

So study what is made easy of the Quran. He knows that there will be sick among you, and others that venture out in the land seeking from God?s bounty, and others who are fighting in the cause of God, so study what you can of it. And hold the contact-method and contribute towards betterment and give God a loan of righteousness.  (73:20)


Quote
As for abstinence, the purpose is self control (please feel free to add your thoughts on the purpose of abstinence). It is self-control during the times when we are active (between dawn and sunset). Hence, in an area where it is mostly dark or light, we should also abstain during the time we are normally active to accomplish the purpose.


You are correct, the God give us a temporal indication and it is not an obligatory condition to abstain during a counted days.

The God describes the night  as a cover, and sleep for resting and  the day to move about in (25:47) and this is also a criterion  that one can used to do both salat and abstinence independently of the sun movement.

Before I believed that 11:114 & 17:78 are only adressed to the prophet but now I change my mind about it. Praise to the God.
Starting and finishing our activity by reading and studying is a good food for our mind :)

Thanks for your helpful inputs

Peace
Marie
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: idolfree1 on December 02, 2004, 07:04:01 AM
Peace be upon you Ayman and Marie,

I don't know if I can get used to all this agreement!  :D

Just kidding.

I agree as well. Marie you mentioned the night for sleeping. In those areas where the sun stays up, the people still go to sleep. They don't stay up just because the sun never goes down.
So while we are in areas that are unusual, we should make the adjustments.

I have to woder why people ended up migrating to areas where the day and night were different from most of the earth? I believe that those places weren't meant for people to remian there, but only to go to for a while, then come back, but that is all just guessing on my part. Indeed the earth is spacious for anyone that wants to sleep everyday in the darkness of night.

I'm rambling so I will say Peace  :D
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on December 08, 2004, 01:48:56 AM
Peace all

Ayman

First i commend the great effortss you have made trying to solve the mistery... irrespective of whether the conclusions of the article are correct or not i think your work is a rich contribution to solving of the mistery...at least in respect of opening many diferent horizons of how this matter could be approached....

without debating the validity of all the arguments(for example whats the real meaning of the word shahr) and conclusions proposed in the article here are 3 points that seems very subjective from my point of view....

first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...

as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?


second question,  how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods

third question

how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?

wait to hear and learn from you more

best wishes, Zlatan
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on December 08, 2004, 03:42:23 AM
Peace brother Zlatan,

Thank you for your kind comments and excellent questions. I will try to answer them, unless The God wills otherwise.

Quote from: "Zlatan"
first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...

as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?


The solstice is around June 22 and we all agree that the hottest time of the year is after the summer solstice. So we are talking about a two months window for the hottest time of the year ranging from June 22 to August 22. Depending on how close to the solstice the first full moon occurred, this period can have 2 or 3 full moons. So which one of these is the full moon of scorching heat?

The word "ramadan" means scorching/burning. So "shahr ramadan" literally means "burning full moon". In addition to the meaning of "scorching/burning heat", when we look in classical Arabic dictionaries, we see the following meanings for "RMD":

1. Highest point of the sun:

وقتِ الضُّحَى عند ارتفاعِ النهار

Hence, we hear the following verse of an Arabic poem talking about "rmd" and the shadow being perpendicular.

فَهُنّ مُعْتَرِضاتٌ ، والحَصى رَمِضٌ ،
 
 والرِّيحُ ساكنةٌ ، والظِّلُّ مُعْتَدِلُ

2. What comes when the sun is still hot:

فالسحابُ رَمَضِيٌّ والمطر رَمَضِيٌّ ، وإِنما سمي رَمَضِيّاً لأِنه يدرك سُخونة الشمس وحرّها

Clouds and rain that are "rmdy" are those that come while the sun is hot.

3. Red eyes:

فلم تَكْتَحِلْ حتى كادَتْ عيناها تَرْمَضانِ

So the question is which out of the 2-3 full moons that occur between the summer solstice to August 22 is likely to be the "burning full moon"?

The first full moon after the summer solstice:

1. Comes at a time when the shadow is perpendicular and the sun is at its highest point.
2. Comes when the sun is still hot because the days are longest and hence the moon is apparent while the day is still hot and there is still daylight.
3. Is reddish in color (looks like it is burning).

Thus out of the 2-3 full moons above, the etymology of the word "rmd" points to the full moon closest to the summer solstice.

Now, let me answer your third question first.

Quote from: "Zlatan"
third question how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?


From 2:185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended. A time when a chapter was descended (9:86) was a hot time of the year (9:81) where there was fighting. Verses such as 2:217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram".

Moreover, according to Classical Arabic dictionaries, Arabs used to use the following inhumane way of hunting during the hot time of the year:

ترَمَّضْنا الصيْدَ : رَمَيْناه في الرمضاء حتى احترقت قوائمُه فأَخذناه

التَّرَمُّضُ صَيْدُ الظبي في وقت الهاجرة تتبعه حتى إِذا تَفَسَّخَت قوائمُه من شدة الحر أَخذته

They used to hunt by chasing the animal in the heat until its legs became so burned that their skin peels and then unable to run they easily take it. I also mentioned in the article the fact that summer is when most animals give birth and killing the female animal would result in the death of all its newborns. So here we have clear humanitarian and wildlife conservation reasons for the restriction on hunting during the hot time of the year.

Another point is in 5:2 that talks about "al-shahr al-7aram" and "al-qala'id" (means of control). See http://www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm on why abstinence/"swm" is one of the "qala'id".

Quote from: "Zlatan"
second question,  how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods


From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: savage_carrot on December 08, 2004, 05:06:39 AM
Peace brother Ayman, Marie, all...

Thank you for posting this article at a time i really needed to research it..
I had some questions, but i think the majority have been answered in the course of this discussion quite satisfactorily...the rest i will soon get to...wanted to know as you say it's a means of control/abstinence, thus it's dual also...personal & environmental....also...are there any methods as to the best personal means of control along with the food and drink? As a few posts back, silence was also discussed? Have u had a chance to research that a bit further?

Also, sister marie wrote :

Quote
I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr: 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon


This would be specific to where the quran descended geographically in a sense as at the specific time it came down...

Excellent article though and quite logical and easy to understand methodically...

Nadia
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Someone on December 08, 2004, 05:45:03 AM
Peace all,

For how many nights the red full moon is visible?

For the night of al-qadr, I don't think there's a mention of it occuring during shahr ramadan. That which was descended in the night of al-qadr is not this scripture, but rouh al-qodos 16:2 16:102 bringing the commands of the lord.


16:1 أتى أمر الله فلا تستعجلوه سبحنه وتعلى عما يشركون
16:2 ينزل الملئكة بالروح من أمره على من يشاء من عباده أن أنذروا أنه لا إله إلا أنا فاتقون
16:3 خلق السموت والأرض بالحق تعلى عما يشركون
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on December 08, 2004, 02:53:16 PM
Peace sister Nadia,

It is good to see you back on the forum :)

Quote from: "savage_carrot"
wanted to know as you say it's a means of control/abstinence, thus it's dual also...personal & environmental....also...are there any methods as to the best personal means of control along with the food and drink? As a few posts back, silence was also discussed? Have u had a chance to research that a bit further?


Feeding of the poor would also be another mean of control since it is mentioned 5:95 with abstinence as corresponding to "qala'id" in 5:97. Moreover, feeding of the poor is mentioned in other signs as a substitute for abstinence.

Quote from: "savage_carrot"
Also, sister marie wrote :

Quote
I wonder this question, why the night of alqadr is better than a thousand sha-hr (full moon?)?
Perhaps because there is two lights during the night of alqadr: 1) the light brought by the quran and 2) the light brought by the full moon


This would be specific to where the quran descended geographically in a sense as at the specific time it came down...


It is most likely that the great reading was descended in Arabia in the Northern hemisphere. Now is the night of measure only one where the great reading was descended long time ago or does it occur again and again at the specified time period?

I tend to think that it occurs again and again. Thus, the night of measure is not just one night and it is not only for the Northern hemisphere but a similar phenomena does occur in the Southern hemisphere.

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on December 08, 2004, 03:08:31 PM
Peace brother Someone,

Quote from: "Someone"
For how many nights the red full moon is visible?

For the night of al-qadr, I don't think there's a mention of it occuring during shahr ramadan. That which was descended in the night of al-qadr is not this scripture, but rouh al-qodos 16:2 16:102 bringing the commands of the lord.


16:1 أتى أمر الله فلا تستعجلوه سبحنه وتعلى عما يشركون
16:2 ينزل الملئكة بالروح من أمره على من يشاء من عباده أن أنذروا أنه لا إله إلا أنا فاتقون
16:3 خلق السموت والأرض بالحق تعلى عما يشركون


I agree that 97:1 could be either interpreted to be talking about what we are reading (the scripture) or the "ru7"/spirit but either way the conclusion is valid. Don't forget that the "ru7" is what brought the scripture (see 42:52, 40:15, 26:192-195). The link is provided because the great reading was descended at the time of the scorching full-moon (2:185) and the great reading (or the ru7 that brought it) was descended in the night of measure (97:1).

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on December 08, 2004, 07:49:04 PM
Peace to you dear Ayman, all

Quote from: "ayman"


Quote from: "Zlatan"
second question,  how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods


From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.

I hope this helps.



thanks for the explanations, now it seems less subjective to me...(with the strong emphasis on less...)

Ayman, please, can you  explain shortly how do you deduce it?

However, what most is worrying me here is exactly that....  there is way too much of deduction and indirect coming to the conclusions....what is very unlike the rest of the book, it`s commandements and instructions...

(like we are coming to the houses from the back door or through the window and not the front door...?)

i remember in the past some people used to argue and justify the traditional way of salat in a similar way...picking the bits and pieces from here and there to patch up the imagined concept that is simply not there...with no support in the verses giving clear cut instructions of how to do it...

i expect the correct answer, when found, to be no less direct, clear, and straightforward than all other of the book`s instruction are....or at least i would expect some clear and direct reasons explaining why these restriction months matters are given in such an unusual way...

however maybe they are not intended for us to comprehend them being only of a temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients of the scripture, a specific cultural milieu and similar......

when i read the verses mentioning shahr haram and similar stuff i always get the impression that all the people, both believers and rejectors of that time(and even their ancestors ) had know what are these times of restriction by default...

at the end of the day maybe its just me, i mean i should study your arguments more and clear my head more from the preconcieved notions....please do continue to search for the proofs and to remind us...it seems that the god has gifted you for the research, please do not stop before the right time and be not satisfied with the less than perfect solution


Peace and all best wishes, Zlatan
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: idolfree1 on December 09, 2004, 01:48:40 AM
Peace be upon you all,

I think that people before Television (not that long ago) had a better concept of Astronomy. They saw better the conncetions between the "heavenly" bodies and the earth (of which the HUman is made from) and how they affected each other. I think that is what we all lack and which is why we are having trouble accepting this, or perhaps still not 100% at the answer. I feel comfortable with this answer that Ayman has brought, but not 100% and I cant explain why.

Also, why is not talking part of the restrictions of the abstainig? Isnt that the method that we see as example twice in this reading(quran)?

Maythe God increase our KNOWlegde.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: savage_carrot on December 09, 2004, 07:36:14 AM
Peace brother Ayman, Kyle, all...

Thank u for the observations on the abstinence and the night of measure...much appreciated!

Quote
I tend to think that it occurs again and again. Thus, the night of measure is not just one night and it is not only for the Northern hemisphere but a similar phenomena does occur in the Southern hemisphere.


This way we would have at the very least, two nights of measure globally per one year, or 12 moon counts...as it can't be one given the nature of earth as spherical...I too am leaning toward this...have u any research that might lead u to believe that the 'night' of measure is only one? I haven't come across it but then again, it's easy to deduce that one night of measure would be equal in both parts of the globe thus leading to equality and once per ramadan even if it does occur twice annually in the big global yearly picture...one could witness the phenomenon twice obviously but don't need to complete the count once we already have in a year...that were the couple of observations we had while discussing it...

Also brother Ayman, if u can, please can u clarify the count as being 10 days maximum...i mean the meaning of the arabic word used as being a max of 10 and any other relevant info pertaining to this as i can't understand the meaning clearly enough to be able to explain it....Thank you!

Brother Kyle:
Quote
Also, why is not talking part of the restrictions of the abstainig? Isnt that the method that we see as example twice in this reading(quran)?


I think that the silence is part of a special fast/sign rather than a regular required thing in ramadan(i could be wrong)...Abstaining from food and drink and feeding the needy seems to be something that can be done on a regular basis yearly without much changing in the norm...apart from a lot of discipline required...Not talking would be difficult if you have a job to go to 6 days a week...unless u took a special leave of absence just for this purpose every year...do u think that's what is required? Every ramadan 10 days of time off from work? Or do u think that the weekends when one can do this is about enough? I haven't really researched this a lot, just wanted to know what u think?

Nadia
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on December 09, 2004, 08:14:56 PM
Peace be upon you kyle

Quote from: "idolfree1"


I think that people before Television (not that long ago) had a better concept of Astronomy. They saw better the conncetions between the "heavenly" bodies and the earth (of which the HUman is made from) and how they affected each other.


very well noticed!

this is one of amazing paradoxes when more mean less...

Peace, Zlatan
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: salgan on December 09, 2004, 11:05:24 PM
Peace Ayaman

Takeing your article on ramadan

Summer Solstice   Jun 21 2005   2:46 AM EDT

Full moon is June 22 2005

So we should abstain from sunrise to sunset starting from June 23 2005 for 10 days am I correct.

Peace Saleem
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: idolfree1 on December 10, 2004, 02:25:55 AM
Peace be upon you Nadia,

Quote
Not talking would be difficult if you have a job to go to 6 days a week...unless u took a special leave of absence just for this purpose every year...do u think that's what is required? Every ramadan 10 days of time off from work? Or do u think that the weekends when one can do this is about enough? I haven't really researched this a lot, just wanted to know what u think?


I am not really sure of the answer, just want to make sure we do not reject a portion of the message. I take ALL of this message to be an example, it it just feels funny to me not to include this abstinence of SPEECH. It seems to me that the God sent WORDS to "adam" to redeem him. I am certain of the POWER of WORDS, but I wonder how much of the HUMAN POPULATION really understands it.

In any case, the time limit for abstaining from talk is only three days, not ten, so perhaps it is talking for the first three days, then eating drinking and sex for the next 7 days.

I don't know, just trying to keep up in this discussion  :D
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: idolfree1 on December 10, 2004, 02:28:28 AM
Peace be upon you Zlatan,

Quote
idolfree1 wrote:
I think that people before Television (not that long ago) had a better concept of Astronomy. They saw better the conncetions between the "heavenly" bodies and the earth (of which the HUman is made from) and how they affected each other.  


very well noticed!

this is one of amazing paradoxes when more mean less...


Thank you brother. I am sure you could expand on this, assuming you are still practicing agriculture as you had chosen at one point.

I would love that oppurtunity to be self substaining (on a human level of course).
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: idolfree1 on December 10, 2004, 02:29:55 AM
Peace be upon you all,

Just wanted to copy and paste Saleems question so it is not missed, I would like that confirmation as well so I can be sure and have more of a basis to analyze this understanding.

Quote
Taking your article on ramadan

Summer Solstice Jun 21 2005 2:46 AM EDT

Full moon is June 22 2005

So we should abstain from sunrise to sunset starting from June 23 2005 for 10 days am I correct.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: zenje on December 10, 2004, 06:25:07 AM
In regard to saleem's question... just to clarify, this is NOT for the whole world, I don't think southern hemisphere has the same deal. :wink:

Peace!
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Someone on December 10, 2004, 07:22:39 AM
Peace Ayman, and all

In laylat al-qadr, it's the essence of things that is brought down. This scripture includes an arabic form of this essence of things that is the reality itself, and was also brought down in this arabic form by ar-rouh, in a "laylat al-qadr" (one of many). This scripture includes also, an arabic message from the lord to those with knowledge, in order to guide them.

I don't know how this physical arabic book had come to exist, but I know that many pocess the physical arabic scripture, and are clueless about its essence. Their laylat al-qadr has not yet come to pass.

Those who had experienced it should be seeing some clarity and feeling the responsability coming with it.

All this to say that "laylat al-qadr" is something that can be experienced by anyone who is serving the god ar-rahman ar-rahim, if the god wishs so.

I'll stop here, maybe i'm going too far. Please let me know if it's the case. :)
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: savage_carrot on December 11, 2004, 06:46:45 AM
Peace Kyle,

Quote
I am not really sure of the answer, just want to make sure we do not reject a portion of the message. I take ALL of this message to be an example, it it just feels funny to me not to include this abstinence of SPEECH. It seems to me that the God sent WORDS to "adam" to redeem him. I am certain of the POWER of WORDS, but I wonder how much of the HUMAN POPULATION really understands it.


Indeed, language is a very powerful tool for communication outside and within...so lack of outside would certainly stress the communication within.

Quote
In any case, the time limit for abstaining from talk is only three days, not ten, so perhaps it is talking for the first three days, then eating drinking and sex for the next 7 days.


Could be, but i still think that it could be used in a specific scenario and not part of the regular personal abstaining in ramadan...but obviously one could incorporate it and see how it goes...I suppose like many things it's open and relative....

Nadia
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: idolfree1 on December 11, 2004, 07:01:36 AM
Peace be upon you Nadia,

Quote
Could be, but i still think that it could be used in a specific scenario and not part of the regular personal abstaining in ramadan...but obviously one could incorporate it and see how it goes...I suppose like many things it's open and relative....


Yes, at this stage it is still open and I agree that the abstaining from talk could be specific based. But just want to be sure that we do not disregard this SIGN that was given not once, but twice in this reading. May the Lord increase us in knowledge.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on December 11, 2004, 03:53:08 PM
Peace dear brother Zlatan,

Quote from: "Zlatan"
Quote
From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.


Ayman, please, can you  explain shortly how do you deduce it?


From the answer of 3 we can deduce that the time of shahr ramadan is the time of restriction and that the restriction occurs in the hot time of the year (after the summer solstice). From the answer of 1 we determined that the shahr of ramadan is the first shahr/full moon after the summer solstice. Hence, the scorching full moon is the first of the restricted full moons. Here is your question 2:

Quote from: "Zlatan"
how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods


I hope that you can now see the answer.

Quote from: "Zlatan"
However, what most is worrying me here is exactly that....  there is way too much of deduction and indirect coming to the conclusions....what is very unlike the rest of the book, it`s commandements and instructions...

(like we are coming to the houses from the back door or through the window and not the front door...?)


It only seems this way because we are used to the mistake of "shahr" meaning month. Once, we get past that and we get used to "shahr" meaning full moon then 2:185 actually becomes very simple and it suddenly contains ALL the information we need to find out exactly when to begin the abstinence. Also, once we understand the completion of the count to mean "ten" then we also know how long exactly the abstinence is for. Hence, 2:185 contains the COMPLETE information one needs to know when to start and end the abstinence. One doesn't need to look at any other verses for that purpose.

Quote from: "Zlatan"
i remember in the past some people used to argue and justify the traditional way of salat in a similar way...picking the bits and pieces from here and there to patch up the imagined concept that is simply not there...with no support in the verses giving clear cut instructions of how to do it...


The complete information about "salat"/learning connection is contained in two words "timed book".

Quote from: "Zlatan"
i expect the correct answer, when found, to be no less direct, clear, and straightforward than all other of the book`s instruction are....or at least i would expect some clear and direct reasons explaining why these restriction months matters are given in such an unusual way...


So far, this is the most direct, clear and straight forward answer on this subject. However, I am not particularly attached to anything except The Truth. Hence, if someone finds a more direct, clear, and straight forward answer tomorrow, then I am all for it.

Please remember that when one is used to a certain wrong understanding, it takes a while to readjust to a correct one. When people were first told that the earth is spehrical, at first it seemed so much more complicated, indirect, and unclear compared to a flat earth at the center of the universe. Now this has naturally become clear, direct, and straight forward and the flat-earth understanding is the one that creates insurmountable complications.

Quote from: "Zlatan"
however maybe they are not intended for us to comprehend them being only of a temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients of the scripture, a specific cultural milieu and similar......


I am certain that the great reading has nothing of only temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients or a specific cultural milieu. The more I learn and study the book, the more I am sure of that.

Quote from: "Zlatan"
when i read the verses mentioning shahr haram and similar stuff i always get the impression that all the people, both believers and rejectors of that time(and even their ancestors ) had know what are these times of restriction by default...


Yes, even now people here in America who have NEVER read the great reading restrict the hunting of deer during the summer and the hunting season begins in November. So everybody knows when the times of hunting restrictions are. I am sure it is the same in Europe and other places that properly manage wild life according to The God's natural laws (even though they may not realize it).

Quote from: "Zlatan"
at the end of the day maybe its just me, i mean i should study your arguments more and clear my head more from the preconcieved notions....please do continue to search for the proofs and to remind us...it seems that the god has gifted you for the research, please do not stop before the right time and be not satisfied with the less than perfect solution


Thank you for your kind words brother. We should all do our learning connection/"salat" as long as we are alive. I pray that I do not stop studying until I die. I can only hope for mercy from our Lord. I would be more than satisfied with just that.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on December 11, 2004, 04:18:38 PM
Peace brother Saleem, all,

Quote from: "salgan"
Takeing your article on ramadan

Summer Solstice   Jun 21 2005   2:46 AM EDT

Full moon is June 22 2005

So we should abstain from sunrise to sunset starting from June 23 2005 for 10 days am I correct.


Thank you for the information. One thing we have to remember is that The God tells us that the whole night until dawn is one unit (73:20). Hence, we should not let the arbitrary start of day at midnight (12AM) confuse us.

I was not planning to look up the info until we get closer to the time. However, I was having a discussion on the subject and a kind sister pointed out that the full moon occurs shortly after 12AM on June 22. Hence, for those of us in the northern hemisphere we would actually start the abstinence from the dawn of June 22 for 10 days. I haven't looked up the info for the southern hemisphere, but I think that the time for their restricted full moons should be coming up shortly.

If you have the opportunity, go out and watch the full moon on the night of the 21-22 June with your family. It is going to be a beautiful sight, especially so close to the solstice. It cannot get any better and I know my children love to watch the moon and stars. Don't forget to take your cameras. :)

If weather doesn't permit where you are then enjoy some internal peace.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on December 11, 2004, 04:32:53 PM
Peace brother Someone, all,

Quote from: "Someone"
In laylat al-qadr, it's the essence of things that is brought down. This scripture includes an arabic form of this essence of things that is the reality itself, and was also brought down in this arabic form by ar-rouh, in a "laylat al-qadr" (one of many). This scripture includes also, an arabic message from the lord to those with knowledge, in order to guide them.

I don't know how this physical arabic book had come to exist, but I know that many pocess the physical arabic scripture, and are clueless about its essence. Their laylat al-qadr has not yet come to pass.

Those who had experienced it should be seeing some clarity and feeling the responsability coming with it.

All this to say that "laylat al-qadr" is something that can be experienced by anyone who is serving the god ar-rahman ar-rahim, if the god wishs so.

I'll stop here, maybe i'm going too far. Please let me know if it's the case. :)


I think I agree with everthing you say and you are not going too far. The only question I would ask is for you to go further and clarify by translating "laylat al-qadr".

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on December 12, 2004, 02:58:55 AM
Peace dear brother Ayman, all !



Quote from: "ayman"


Quote from: "Zlatan"
However, what most is worrying me here is exactly that....  there is way too much of deduction and indirect coming to the conclusions....what is very unlike the rest of the book, it`s commandements and instructions...

(like we are coming to the houses from the back door or through the window and not the front door...?)



It only seems this way because we are used to the mistake of "shahr" meaning month. Once, we get past that and we get used to "shahr" meaning full moon then 2:185 actually becomes very simple and it suddenly contains ALL the information we need



Ok it may be so, but what about the determinining of all of the restricted periods?

Its far from being direct and clear cut given ...compare it to the god `s decree on number of the restricted shahrs, the way it is said(9:36), it is very unlike it and very unlike the way other numerous decrees and restrictions throughout the book are given?

why the god havent said:" o you who believe ashaurul hurumu are:1..,2...,3...,4... or from... to ..."or  something similar to it...

thats the way He decres when He is decreeing  something to people...there`s no beating around bush...


Can you found any decree that you believe is from the god which is given in a fashion similar to the way (as you understand it now) restricted periods are given?


Quote
Quote from: "Zlatan"
i remember in the past some people used to argue and justify the traditional way of salat in a similar way...picking the bits and pieces from here and there to patch up the imagined concept that is simply not there...with no support in the verses giving clear cut instructions of how to do it...


The complete information about "salat"/learning connection is contained in two words "timed book".


i dont understand, can you elaborate a bit more, maybe its my poor english now? what would be meaning of the expression "timed book" in english?


Quote
Please remember that when one is used to a certain wrong understanding, it takes a while to readjust to a correct one. When people were first told that the earth is spehrical, at first it seemed so much more complicated, indirect, and unclear compared to a flat earth at the center of the universe. Now this has naturally become clear, direct, and straight forward and the flat-earth understanding is the one that creates insurmountable complications.


very wisely said! thanks for the reminder.... i should really try this tactic


Quote
Quote from: "Zlatan"
however maybe they are not intended for us to comprehend them being only of a temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients of the scripture, a specific cultural milieu and similar......


I am certain that the great reading has nothing of only temporary importance or intended only for the original recipients or a specific cultural milieu. The more I learn and study the book, the more I am sure of that.


Of course everything has universal importance, however, correct me if i am wrong, it may be either direct or indirect....that is, the perpetual importance of some of the book`s sayings may be exactly in their temporary importance, significance or validity...i mean we can not applie them directly but we can deduce from them and thus indirectly extract wisdom(like some regulations concerning the prophet only-related solely to the prophet).

By reading of some regulations which are highy culturaly or similarly conditioned we learn from it that all the regulations are not for all the times and all the people and that everything is relative...or that following of the essence of the god`s messages can take different forms of expressions depending of conditions...( for example what about eskimos in the case when they are having not water no sand to rub with as ordered in 5:6?)

Thus for our generation the significance of the periods of the restrictions(even if we do not know when they are) might be the message that the very essence of the righteous life is in a very strict respecting of the God given borders and instructions, upholding of the laws, contracts and promises and all obligations and particularly peace treaties.....


what say you?

anyway, thanks for advices and all the info!

Peace and best wishes, Zlatan
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on December 22, 2004, 06:34:15 AM
Ayman, let me import an another issue which maybe might shed some light on this topic...

Tell me, how do we determine the amount of ransom(money or resources) which murderer should pay in the cases of killing.... if I am not mistaken it is a prescribed solution for some cases of killing....

but nowhere the book prescribes the amount of the ransom...

similarly, we do not find what are prescribed restricted shahrs...

has this reasoning any validity?

best wishes, Zlatan
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on December 23, 2004, 02:34:17 AM
Peace Ayman, all

I have studied your article more carefully and here are my results ...i believe you will take my comment postively, nevertheless i would like to state that i have bolded some of my comments with no purpose of hostility and blind opposition but in order to make them more difficult to escape readers` attention

Quote from: "ayman"
Peace brother Zlatan,

Thank you for your kind comments and excellent questions. I will try to answer them, unless The God wills otherwise.

Quote from: "Zlatan"
first question, how do you determine that the shahr of the hot time is the first shahr after summer solistice...

as mentioned by one of the quoted articles the hotest time of the year is not so fixed as you have assumed... sometimes its july/august and sometimes june/july period, so how did you decided which of these two is ramadan?


The solstice is around June 22 and we all agree that the hottest time of the year is after the summer solstice. So we are talking about a two months window for the hottest time of the year ranging from June 22 to August 22. Depending on how close to the solstice the first full moon occurred, this period can have 2 or 3 full moons. So which one of these is the full moon of scorching heat?

The word "ramadan" means scorching/burning. So "shahr ramadan" literally means "burning full moon". In addition to the meaning of "scorching/burning heat", when we look in classical Arabic dictionaries, we see the following meanings for "RMD":

1. Highest point of the sun:

وقتِ الضُّحَى عند ارتفاعِ النهار

Hence, we hear the following verse of an Arabic poem talking about "rmd" and the shadow being perpendicular.

فَهُنّ مُعْتَرِضاتٌ ، والحَصى رَمِضٌ ،
 
 والرِّيحُ ساكنةٌ ، والظِّلُّ مُعْتَدِلُ

2. What comes when the sun is still hot:

فالسحابُ رَمَضِيٌّ والمطر رَمَضِيٌّ ، وإِنما سمي رَمَضِيّاً لأِنه يدرك سُخونة الشمس وحرّها

Clouds and rain that are "rmdy" are those that come while the sun is hot.

3. Red eyes:

فلم تَكْتَحِلْ حتى كادَتْ عيناها تَرْمَضانِ

So the question is which out of the 2-3 full moons that occur between the summer solstice to August 22 is likely to be the "burning full moon"?

The first full moon after the summer solstice:

1. Comes at a time when the shadow is perpendicular and the sun is at its highest point.
2. Comes when the sun is still hot because the days are longest and hence the moon is apparent while the day is still hot and there is still daylight.
3. Is reddish in color (looks like it is burning).

Thus out of the 2-3 full moons above, the etymology of the word "rmd" points to the full moon closest to the summer solstice.

Now, let me answer your third question first.

Quote from: "Zlatan"
third question how do you know that the time after shahr of ramadan is the time of restriction at all?


From 2:185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended. A time when a chapter was descended (9:86) was a hot time of the year (9:81) where there was fighting. Verses such as 2:217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram".

Moreover, according to Classical Arabic dictionaries, Arabs used to use the following inhumane way of hunting during the hot time of the year:

ترَمَّضْنا الصيْدَ : رَمَيْناه في الرمضاء حتى احترقت قوائمُه فأَخذناه

التَّرَمُّضُ صَيْدُ الظبي في وقت الهاجرة تتبعه حتى إِذا تَفَسَّخَت قوائمُه من شدة الحر أَخذته

They used to hunt by chasing the animal in the heat until its legs became so burned that their skin peels and then unable to run they easily take it. I also mentioned in the article the fact that summer is when most animals give birth and killing the female animal would result in the death of all its newborns. So here we have clear humanitarian and wildlife conservation reasons for the restriction on hunting during the hot time of the year.

Another point is in 5:2 that talks about "al-shahr al-7aram" and "al-qala'id" (means of control). See http://www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm on why abstinence/"swm" is one of the "qala'id".

Quote from: "Zlatan"
second question,  how do you know the shahr of ramadan is the first of the restricted shahrs or is marking the beggining of the restricted periods


From the answers to questions 1 and 3, the answer to 2 can be deduced.


no it cant.... in the answer to the question 3 you have said that
shahr ramadan when the reading was descended coincides with hot time when a chapter is descended(9:81)and where was fighting, plus that  there was some fighting during shahr haram(2:217)....

The problem is that there is no proof presented that the fighting in 2:217  and chapter 9 is the same fighting...even if there is evidence to it, it would only prove that some of the asshurul hurumu coincide with the hot time of the year but not all of them...the ashurul hurumu might started in spring and thus one or two of them would still coincide with the hot time and the big fightings

so there is no proof in the article that all of the ashurul hurumu fall in the hot time or summer...and particularly, though there might be room for claiming that shahr of ramadan is one of the ashurul hurumu, there is no any evidence in the article that the shahr of ramadan is the first of the four shahrs....


I hope that you will give your answers in january when as you have said you will have more time, until then i must commend your great debating at SRI ... i am reading its archives these days....your knowledge, reasoning, wit, and detail, patient and very lucid responses and debating in very wise and nice manner is truly fascinating to me... may The God honors us with more of his servants like you....

Peace and all the best wishes, Zlatan
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on December 28, 2004, 04:59:32 AM
Peace Dear brother Zlatan,

Thank you for your kind comments and good questions.

Quote from: "Zlatan"
no it cant.... in the answer to the question 3 you have said that shahr ramadan when the reading was descended coincides with hot time when a chapter is descended(9:81)and where was fighting, plus that  there was some fighting during shahr haram(2:217)....


I think that a good approach is to start by agreeing on what we agree on.

Do you agree:

1. That a chapter of the great reading was descended (9:86) in a hot time of the year (9:81).
2. That "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended (2:185).

If you agree with the above, do you agree:

3. That the meaning of "ramadhan" is "scorching/burning".
4. That the meaning of "shahr" is "full moon".

If you agree with the above, do you agree:

5. That the hottest time of the year occurs after the summer solstice.
6. That the first "shahr"/full moon after the summer solstice is reddish in color (as if it is burning).

Also, do you agree:

7. That "sayf" means spring and "shitaa" means winter.
8. That "7ajj"/debate/bargain is during the count of 4 "ash-hur hurum".
9. That Quraysh/"quraysh?" traveled in spring and winter (chapter 106) and hence those cannot be the same times for the "7ajj"/debate/bargain.

Let's first see if we agree on the above and then continue.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on December 28, 2004, 08:13:42 PM
peace dear brother Ayman





Quote
Do you agree:


Quote
1. That a chapter of the great reading was descended (9:86) in a hot time of the year (9:81).
2. That "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended (2:185).


ok


Quote
If you agree with the above, do you agree:

3. That the meaning of "ramadhan" is "scorching/burning".
4. That the meaning of "shahr" is "full moon".



not 100% sure but for the sake of the argument i`ll agree



Quote
If you agree with the above, do you agree:

5. That the hottest time of the year occurs after the summer solstice.


not sure but for the sake of argument ill accept it



Quote
6. That the first "shahr"/full moon after the summer solstice is reddish in color (as if it is burning).


now you are switching between two meanings of the word... yes the meanigs are related but nevertheless distinct...If you have decided to consider ramadan as hotest/burning you can not now use it as redish for the same word in the same verse...

(just)for example if qwm means 1 to stand and 2 support you can not use both of the meanings for the same signle occurence of this word in the same verse...only if there are two occurences, only then you might switch from one meaning to the other  

Quote
Also, do you agree:

7. That "sayf" means spring and "shitaa" means winter.
8. That "7ajj"/debate/bargain is during the count of 4 "ash-hur hurum".
9. That Quraysh/"quraysh?" traveled in spring and winter (chapter 106) and hence those cannot be the same times for the "7ajj"/debate/bargain.



although i am not sure of all the translations you suggest here, BUT now i better understand where you stand  :lol:

so because they were allegedly traveling during spring and autumn you think hajj couldnt possibly be in those months and baecause ramadan is in summer all of the restriction shahrs or ashuru must be placed in summer....hmm...it sounds logical, however 2:185 mention of traveling during ramadan?

btw from where did you get hajj is bargain?



Quote
Let's first see if we agree on the above and then continue.


nice methodology


Peace and all best wishes,
may your lord strenghteen your feet brother, for your efforts in serving Him and debating in an excellent manner!

btw here are more of my thouhts which occured to me these days...

have you noticed that your timing of ramadan greatly coincided with that of anwar goins who concluded based on chapter 53  that chapter alegedly mentions rising of the star sirius in the time of the beggining of the revelation that is shahr of ramadan, and thus Anwar have located it after summer solistice and it allegedly begins with the rise or fall (i can not remmember now) of sirius?

(let us more carefully study 2:197 i believe it is a key and a straightforward answer to the topic...)

Ayman, what is your translation of 2:197 hajj is in:
1 in well-known ashuru
2 in known ashuru
3 in assigned ashuru
4 in marked ashuru
5 in appointed ashuru
6 in discernible ashuru
7?

also, the vocalisation of the verse is a bit strang to me... wouldnt ashurAN malumatAN better fit to these translations above?

expression al hajju ashurUN malumatUN gives me impression of meaning "al haj(itself) is ashur malumat" and not "al hajj is in ashur malumat"...  

my arabic is pretty poor, can you explain this shortly?

Zlatan
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on December 30, 2004, 12:21:56 AM
Peace Ayman all


Here are more thoughts that maybe might help...

Is there any chance we can locate "yawmul hajjil akbari"?

that would, it seems, solve the whole problem....cause it seems its the first day of the hajj...

btw how do you translate it?

the day of the great(er/est) hajj or the great(er/est) day of the hajj?
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on December 30, 2004, 12:39:20 AM
Here are some thoughts and possible answers on why theres no a direct answer or solution to the timing of the ahsurul hurumu in the script...

they are maybe crazy however many of the great ideas seemed as crazy at its begginings...so let us at least take them into consideration...we have nothing to lose...

1. The abrogation theory(2:106), or the theory of literal abrogation is true,....the verse x(cant remember the exact number) says that the messenger will forget some of the revelation- "sa nuqriuke fa la tansaa, illaa ma shaaallah" "we will surely teach you(or read to you) and you wont forget, except what the god wills"

2. the message of  3/7 is that the meaning of some of the books messages is known only to The God...


3. 22:52-53 says that theres is some falsehood in this scripture instiled by the devil [/b]just like was the case when all of the previous messengers recited The God`s messages, in order that this devil`s injection might serve as a means of misdirecting for the rejecters...and this falsehood are things mentioned in the book but for which theres no explanation in the rest of the book
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on December 30, 2004, 12:43:28 AM
Quote
Is there any chance we can locate "yawmul hajjil akbari"?

that would, it seems, solve the whole problem....cause it seems its the first day of the hajj...



Ayman is there any chance the archeology might reveal this fact?
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on December 30, 2004, 12:48:49 AM
Let me remind you also that the book do not defines, although prescribes the ransom or the prize that is to be payed by killer in the case the murder wasnt  intentional or is forgiven by the family/society?

Can this in any way help us to resolve ahurul hurumu which are also prescribed but not( as it seems now) directly defined?

best wishes, Zlatan
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on December 30, 2004, 12:52:30 AM
Is there any phenomenon in the heaven that is present during four months only while absent throughout the rest of year? or which apear/repeat exactly four times in a year?

anyone knowlegeable in astronomy?
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: idolfree1 on December 30, 2004, 02:30:32 AM
Peace be upon you all,

Thank you Zlatan and Ayman for keeping this discussion alive. This is the only way we can resolve it.

Zlatan, I do think that the more we learn about astronomy the closer we will get to the answer. The "heavenly bodies" certainly have an effect upon the earth, and we are earth beings. We are certainly being given a timing that will be most beneficial to the PURPOSE of the concept.

If we are talking abouut debating (hajja) , then that appears to me to be a "fiery" time. The summer solstice which last 4 days(not years  :cry: ) keeps coming to mind. With the winter and summer solstices and the two equinoxes, we have 10 days (a recurring theme).

Just wanted to throw some ideas on the fire while it is still burning.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on December 30, 2004, 02:46:25 AM
Peace Ayman & Kylle

Ayman can you also check for the meaning of maGloomat instead of ma˛&loomat?

i have checked but can not recall what the meaning was right now...but surely there some interesting notions in that root which maybe can lead to something, if not right now, then after we gather more knowledge and the facts...

btw 2:187 and its words "wala tubashiroohunna waantum AAakifoonafee almasajidi" "and do not approach them/make them happy while you are devouted in time/place/institution of obeying"

might be another evidence that ramadan is one of the four ashuru of restriction?
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on January 02, 2005, 11:32:27 PM
Peace Ayman, all

Quote from: "Zlatan"

Is there any chance we can locate "yawmul hajjil akbari"?

that would, it seems, solve the whole problem....cause it seems its the first day of the hajj...




In 2:185 we read that the reading is "unzila" in shahr of ramadan..tell me ayman, anyone knowledgeable, does this stem of n-z-l allow it to be read/understood as "when the revelation of the reading started/initiated" or its only restricted to "when the reading is (completely) revealed".

Is the whole of the reading revealed only during shahr of ramadan and not in any other time?

If this is the case, and revelation has been restricted only to the time of shahr of ramadan then from 9:1-3 its quite and almost undeniably clear that ramadan is the first of 4 ashuru of restriction...

best wishes
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on January 03, 2005, 04:24:36 AM
Peace brother Zlatan,

Quote from: "Zlatan"
In 2:185 we read that the reading is "unzila" in shahr of ramadan..tell me ayman, anyone knowledgeable, does this stem of n-z-l allow it to be read/understood as "when the revelation of the reading started/initiated" or its only restricted to "when the reading is (completely) revealed".

Is the whole of the reading revealed only during shahr of ramadan and not in any other time?

If this is the case, and revelation has been restricted only to the time of shahr of ramadan then from 9:1-3 its quite and almost undeniably clear that ramadan is the first of 4 ashuru of restriction...


Thank you for an excellent observation. I think that perhaps the answer to your question is in understanding something that I have long wondered about myself. What, if any, is the difference between the terms "anzl" and "nzl"?

I think that perhaps "anzl" denotes the first step of "descending" while "nzl" denotes the second step. So it is a two-step process.

The first step is chapters of the reading being descended/"anzl" (see 24:1, 9:86, 2:185, 97:1, etc.). This happens during one night, the night of measure, which is also the burning/scorching full-moon (shahr ramadhan).

The second step is Jibril/"jibril?"/the spirit descending ("nzl") the book on the prophet's heart, an internal process (see 26:193, 2:97). This takes place gradually and not all at once (see 25:32).

Please let me know what you think.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Someone on January 03, 2005, 07:37:15 AM
Peace ayman, all,

These are some charts made by Muhammad Shahroor for his book "al-kitab wa al-quran". There's an entire chapter about "inzal wa tanzil".

We can discuss about it later, but for now my understanding is as follow:

"anzala/inzal" means that the person understands what has been "nouzzila".

"nazzala/tanzil" means that the object is *made* available to a person in a manner that the person *can* understand it, but the person has not yet understood the object.

Like in the example with Newton below, things are falling to the ground for millions of years because of the gravity, everybody saw this phenomenon but nobody made the link, until Newton had the revelation (or arrived to the understanding) that there is a law made by the creator, and studied this law to put it in a formula.
 
http://www.shahrour.org/bookListPages.php?cid=360&pid=359&page=147&bid=1&imagetopurl=drasat1.jpg

(http://puadam.jeeran.com/en-1.JPG)

(http://puadam.jeeran.com/en-2.JPG)

(http://puadam.jeeran.com/en-3.JPG)

--
Title: Inzaal and tanzeel/nazaal.
Post by: progod on January 03, 2005, 08:38:13 AM
I do no doubt what someone is saying when it comes to modern Arabic. But I know that in CLassical Arabic anzala and nazzala are synonymous forms on the most part. So inzaal and tanzeel can mean the same things but they both definitely have two distinct meanings. One is to 'understand' the other is 'to come down.'  As well as 'to couse to understand' and 'to cause to come down'

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Is this a reason why ramadan cant be one of ashurul hurumu?
Post by: Zlatan on January 05, 2005, 08:53:36 PM
"but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the pilgrimage and seven when he returns" 2:196


If one is already fasting how then the expiation could be the fasting during the same time?


best wishes, zlatan
Title: Re: Is this a reason why ramadan cant be one of ashurul hur
Post by: ayman on January 08, 2005, 04:05:57 AM
Peace brother Zlatan,

Quote from: "Zlatan"
"but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the pilgrimage and seven when he returns" 2:196

If one is already fasting how then the expiation could be the fasting during the same time?


There are several possible answers. Which answer is most correct will depend on:

1. A proper understanding of 2:196.
2. Possibly, the context of war from 2:190-195 must also be taken into account in relationship to the interpretation of what could be construed as the cutting of the hair.
3. Also, if one continues reading in 2:196, one will see that there is a certain group that is exempted from this rule. However, it is no clear what they should do instead of the prescribed abstinence. One interpretation is that they should abstain the whole ten days during the "7ajj"/debate. So for them, the "7ajj" duration is 10 days.
4. A proper understanding of "7ajj" and what it is. Also, if it is one time at any of the "ash-hur ma3lumat" or if it occurs at all the "ash-hur ma3lumat".

Point 4 is actually the most important point. I think that once we properly understand "7ajj" then the picture will become clearer. To start, please let me know what you understand "7ajj" to be.

My understanding is that "7ajj" is a gathering like the annual fair. People come from all over to trade, get benefits, meet other people, and be reminded of The God's favors. We are told in 22:27 that Ibrahim invited people "WITH/BI al-7ajj" and not "TO/ILA al-7ajj" to witness benefits. You can only invite ALL people with something beneficial and non-descriminatory. We are told in 28:27 that Moses was hired to work for 8 "7ijaj". What was hired to do? Clearly, he was hired to work and tend for sheep (28:23-24) and NOT for any religious pilgrimage. What does working and tending sheep has to do with "7ajj"? Naturally, people work and produce so that they can BARGAIN with their products. Bargaining is a kind of debate and it results in witnessing benefits by the seller and the buyer. Thus, "al-7ajj"/the debate is like the annual fair where people work all year and then go to sell and/or buy products. Mid summer - early fall is the natural time for such markets because produce and livestock are plentiful. The large gathering of "7ajj" provides a good opportunity to remind as many people as possible of The God. It is also an opportunity for the advantaged to donate and provide for the disadvantaged.

Thus, I think that the concept of "7ajj" has nothing to do with any religious challenge no more than it has to do with a holy pilgrimage. It is an entirely secular concept.

I think that once we agree on a proper understanding of "7ajj" then we can address the other issues and answer your question together.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: idolfree1 on January 08, 2005, 04:15:20 AM
Peace be upon you Ayman,

Quote
My understanding is that "7ajj" is a gathering like the annual fair. People come from all over to trade, get benefits, meet other people, and be reminded of The God's favors. We are told in 22:27 that Ibrahim invited people "WITH/BI al-7ajj" and not "TO/ILA al-7ajj" to witness benefits. You can only invite ALL people with something beneficial and non-descriminatory. We are told in 28:27 that Moses was hired to work for 8 "7ijaj". What was hired to do? Clearly, he was hired to work and tend for sheep (28:23-24) and NOT for any religious pilgrimage. What does working and tending sheep has to do with "7ajj"? Naturally, people work and produce so that they can BARGAIN with their products. Bargaining is a kind of debate and it results in witnessing benefits by the seller and the buyer. Thus, "al-7ajj"/the debate is like the annual fair where people work all year and then go to sell and/or buy products. Mid summer - early fall is the natural time for such markets because produce and livestock are plentiful. The large gathering of "7ajj" provides a good opportunity to remind as many people as possible of The God. It is also an opportunity for the advantaged to donate and provide for the disatvantaged.

Thus, I think that the concept of "7ajj" has nothing to do with any religious challenge no more than it has to do with a holy pilgrimage. It is an entirely secular concept.

I think that once we agree on a proper understanding of "7ajj" then we can address the other issues and answer your question together.




WoW!!!  I need to reflect on that. Very good work indeed Ayman.
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Zlatan on January 08, 2005, 04:15:40 AM
thanks ayman, thoughts provoking comment, indeed....

i will study and ponder further


best wishes, zlatan
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: marie on January 08, 2005, 07:52:54 AM
C'est magnifique Ayman  :D

Keep good works

The god bless you
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on January 09, 2005, 07:58:16 AM
God blessings on all,

I will put my understanding in points:

1. For the compensation of killing someone to be to fast for a number of months does not give that number of months any particular signifance other than that the Koran says that that is the number of months that we are to fast in.

2. Therefore, if someone is prescribed to fast during the Pilgrimage for 10 days that does not make the Pilgrimage and that number of days equal. If the Koran had said that they must fast 2 months would we assume that the pilgrimage should be two months then? That would be jumping to conclusions.

3. The passage where Moses (God bless him) works for a man of Midian for 8 pilgrimages obviously says that the people of Midian engaged in a pilgrimage and used it to refer to time periods. Just as we do. We can say I want you to work for me for 5 easters, or for 5 summers or from 5 winters. Depending on the context we can mean all 5 years or literally for just those 5 seasons.

4. So the people of Midian had a pilgrimage. What is so wrong about that? Just about every people in the world has some sort of pilgrimage that they make annually, weekly, bianually, biweekly, or even haphazardly.


So if we are to fast 10 days during the pilgrimage for whatever reason how does that make the pilgrimage equal to 10 days.

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: idolfree1 on January 09, 2005, 10:47:57 AM
Peace be upon you Anwar,

Quote
Just about every people in the world has some sort of pilgrimage that they make annually, weekly, bianually, biweekly, or even haphazardly.


What are some examples?
Title: Pilgrimage
Post by: progod on January 09, 2005, 04:24:48 PM
God's blessings on you Kyle,

Jews make pilgrimages to the wailing wall, Christians make pilgrimages to
Jerusalem, Catholics still make pilgrimages to Rome, Muslims in West Africa make pilgrimages to the tombs of their saints, other Muslims do the same in Iran and other countries. Buddhist make pilgrimages to the statues and relics and tomb of Buddha. Hindus make pilgrimages to the Ganges river, which they consider holy, etc. etc.
Many peoples throughout  the world have made pilgrimages to different things. The ancient greeks made pilgrimages to oracles. If you consider it holy and you go to visit it it is considered a pilgrimage. Some pilgrimages are coordinated and some are not. Some are for certain seasons and others can be done at any time. But they are all pilgrimages.

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: savage_carrot on May 02, 2005, 01:05:28 AM
Peace brother Ayman, all...

In regards to the full moon being easier to sight and how we can tell if its 'full', i had some observations...last month i tried to observe if the moon was full and during that time it was high and it was quite difficult to tell if it was full or off by a little...this month a few days back i noticed it very close/closer to the horizon and it was surprisingly easy to tell it was full...

Here is an interesting link regarding this phenomenon:

http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/sectionI.html

Regards,
Nadia
Title: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on May 03, 2005, 09:23:01 PM
Peace sister Nadia,

Quote from: "savage_carrot"
In regards to the full moon being easier to sight and how we can tell if its 'full', i had some observations...last month i tried to observe if the moon was full and during that time it was high and it was quite difficult to tell if it was full or off by a little...this month a few days back i noticed it very close/closer to the horizon and it was surprisingly easy to tell it was full...

Here is an interesting link regarding this phenomenon:

http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/sectionI.html


It is amazing when what the book tells us is verified through empirical observation. I certainly look forward to the full-moon of scorching heat next month. It will come one day after the summer solstice. Being so close to the solstice it should be more spectacular and even easier to make out than the full moon you saw.

Peace and best regards,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Soof on August 18, 2008, 11:12:27 AM
Peace

I have been wondering if there are any established counter arguments by anyone to your understanding of shahr ramadan? If so could you please direct me to them?

Go in peace.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on August 20, 2008, 09:04:12 AM
Peace Soof,

I have been wondering if there are any established counter arguments by anyone to your understanding of shahr ramadan? If so could you please direct me to them?

I think that the main counter arguments that I have seen fall into three categories.

There is the traditional understanding which has to ignore the meaning of the word "ramada" and assume it to be meaningless. It also has to ignore the contradictions brought about by considering "shahr" to mean a calendar month as opposed to a cosmic phenomenon (full-moon, a meaning indicated in the Classical Arabic dictionary Lisan Al-3arab). For example the contradiction created in 2:185 by supposedly making the fast for a month and then turning round and saying that fasting is for a few days.

There is Layth's understanding which, as far as I know, corrects the traditional understanding about month and acknowledges that the word "shahr" means full moon but like traditional understanding ignores the meaning of the word "ramadan" and thus puts the timing around the winter solstice.

There is also Anwar (Progod) who takes into account the correct meaning of "ramadan" and doesn't ignore it but sticks to the traditional understanding and resulting contradictions of taking "shahr" to mean "month" as opposed to a cosmic phenomenon (full moon).

As usual, any other types of counter arguments are welcome.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Soof on August 20, 2008, 11:05:40 AM
Peace

Thanks, Do you know of anyone else completely separate from free-minds.com come to your understanding regarding the 10 day period and shahr ramadhan? Your article is the only one that looks at it from this angle to my knowledge. Not for any discredit of your study, but out of curiosity.

Go in peace.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on August 20, 2008, 01:48:36 PM
Peace Soof,

Thanks, Do you know of anyone else completely separate from free-minds.com come to your understanding regarding the 10 day period and shahr ramadhan? Your article is the only one that looks at it from this angle to my knowledge. Not for any discredit of your study, but out of curiosity.

Long after the article was written, I came accross information on other sites about Jewish festivals. I found it interesting that several of them are also timed according to the full moon. One festival in particular, if I remember correctly is the feast of Tebernacles (I believe this is what it is called) is a harvest feast which seems similar to the hagg/feast talked about in the great reading.

I don't think much research has been done in this area since all orientalists simply assume that the sectarian timing is the correct one and no one has bothered to look into this and verify it. There is definitely more research needed in this and many other areas taken for granted.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Umm Tariq on August 23, 2008, 05:19:21 AM
Salamun alaikum,
To Ayman,

I read your article again on ramadan/ determining the calendar and maashaAllah it is very informative.  I have not yet come to my own conclusion because I have not done my own study on this topic.  When I do, I do plan on referring back to your article and Layth's on the topic to see where we agree or disagree and then can have further discussions except as Allah wills.  I do have 2 questions for you and one note.  The first question is that you seem to disagree with Layth's conclusion that the calendar should be luni-solar and if you do can you please share why.  How do you interpret the 2 ayat 10:5 and 17:12?  Second, I was noticing that if we take shahr to mean full-moon which I agree with, have you found that ALL uses of the word shahr in the reading have this meaning?  For example, I noticed and please correct me if you feel that I am wrong in some way, if we take the meaning as full-moon instead of the contemporary meaning of a full month of 29/30 days,then in the ayat 58:4 (also 4:92) would the fast actually equal '1 month of 30 days' instead of 2 months of 60 days' since we are using the 'full-moon' as the marker?  I am asking is that what the verse is saying that we see one full moon and fast UNTIL we see the next full moon?  Do you see the difference I am talking about?  Also in the verses regarding the waiting period for women, in verse 65:4, it says 3 ashhur.  Would it be that we see the first, start waiting, see the second, still waiting and see the third and it's over, which would equal 2 full months (contemporary) and not 3? 

As far as the note, you asked at the end of your article about what's the difference between sanah and 'aam if any.  I was also puzzled by this and wanted to know so I compiled these verses, did you do further study on this?  Here are the verses I found:  2:259, 7:130, 9:28,37,126, 10:5, 12:42,47,49, 17:12, 18:11,25, 20:40, 22:47, 23:112, 26:18, 205, 29:14, 30:4, 31:14, 32:5, 70:4  Then I noticed by the God's mercy that verse 31:14 and 46:15 and talking about the same thing, the fisaal (separation) of the child from his mother.  In 46:15 it says the fisaal is 30 shahr and in 31:14 it's 'aamain, 2 'aams.  If they aren't equal then wouldn't that be a contradiction in the reading and if they are equal then isn't that the answer?  If 2 'aams equals 30 shahr then what are the implications of this and it's significance that there is a special arabic word for this time period?  Subhanallah.  Just thought I would share this finding just in case you didn't and if you did, can you share your understanding? 

Also I wanted to post a link to this article (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73013) here since it's clearly related to this discussion and I was clearly surprised that some Christians are now debating this topic.  I sent an email with links to you two's articles.  I am sure that they would be surprised to see such dealt with in the reading despite all of the negativity surrounding this revelation.  It seems that it's something that the 'people of the book' have forgotten and maybe that's why the God mentions it clearly in His book.  It IS something important in our obligation/ system.

Looking forward to your reply.

Umm Tariq
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on August 25, 2008, 05:33:28 PM
Peace Umm Tariq,

Thank you for your comments and it is great to see you on the forum.

I read your article again on ramadan/ determining the calendar and maashaAllah it is very informative.  I have not yet come to my own conclusion because I have not done my own study on this topic.  When I do, I do plan on referring back to your article and Layth's on the topic to see where we agree or disagree and then can have further discussions except as Allah wills.  I do have 2 questions for you and one note.  The first question is that you seem to disagree with Layth's conclusion that the calendar should be luni-solar and if you do can you please share why.  How do you interpret the 2 ayat 10:5 and 17:12?

I don't disagree that the timing of the hunting restriction, the abstinence and the feast (hagg) is based on a luni-solar cycle. What I disagree with is the term "calendar". The god doesn't give us a calendar and doesn't command us to use a certain calendar. Calendars have things like the days of the week and so on that are completely arbitrary. One can use any calendar as long as they don't change the timing of the hunting restriction in order to violate what the god restricted as warned against in 9:36. The timing described by the god is independent of any calendar. It is based on clear cosmic phenomenon. Of course, this god-given timing mechanism is very effective so it is probably a good idea to use a calendar that is aligned with this timing but it is not compulsory.

Second, I was noticing that if we take shahr to mean full-moon which I agree with, have you found that ALL uses of the word shahr in the reading have this meaning? 

The meaning of "full-moon" fits all the uses of the word "shahr" in the great reading.

For example, I noticed and please correct me if you feel that I am wrong in some way, if we take the meaning as full-moon instead of the contemporary meaning of a full month of 29/30 days,then in the ayat 58:4 (also 4:92) would the fast actually equal '1 month of 30 days' instead of 2 months of 60 days' since we are using the 'full-moon' as the marker?  I am asking is that what the verse is saying that we see one full moon and fast UNTIL we see the next full moon?  Do you see the difference I am talking about? 

Yes, it would mean to fast the period covering two full-moons (about 30 days).

Also in the verses regarding the waiting period for women, in verse 65:4, it says 3 ashhur.  Would it be that we see the first, start waiting, see the second, still waiting and see the third and it's over, which would equal 2 full months (contemporary) and not 3? 

It would depend on when the full-moon occurred after the couple is separated. If it just occurred the day before separation then waiting for three full-moons would mean waiting for about 90 days. If the full moon occurs the day after the couple is separated then it would be about 60 days. So the waiting period varies between 60-90 days. This is the same as when the women are asked to count menstruations. The waiting period will be different depending on when the woman?s menstruation occurred.

As far as the note, you asked at the end of your article about what's the difference between sanah and 'aam if any.  I was also puzzled by this and wanted to know so I compiled these verses, did you do further study on this?  Here are the verses I found:  2:259, 7:130, 9:28,37,126, 10:5, 12:42,47,49, 17:12, 18:11,25, 20:40, 22:47, 23:112, 26:18, 205, 29:14, 30:4, 31:14, 32:5, 70:4  Then I noticed by the God's mercy that verse 31:14 and 46:15 and talking about the same thing, the fisaal (separation) of the child from his mother.  In 46:15 it says the fisaal is 30 shahr and in 31:14 it's 'aamain, 2 'aams.  If they aren't equal then wouldn't that be a contradiction in the reading and if they are equal then isn't that the answer?  If 2 'aams equals 30 shahr then what are the implications of this and it's significance that there is a special arabic word for this time period?  Subhanallah.  Just thought I would share this finding just in case you didn't and if you did, can you share your understanding?

46:15 talks about pregnancy and weaning together being 30 full-moons. On the other hand, 31:14 talks about the weaning alone being within two years. So according to 31:14 two years is the maximum period for weaning but it could be less. The two passages are talking about two different but overlapping periods and not the same period. For example, if the pregnancy was 9 full-moons then the weaning would be 21 full-moons. On the other hand, if the baby was premature and say he was born in only 7 full-moons then the weaning would be 23 full moons. In either case, the weaning would be within the two years.

Also I wanted to post a link to this article (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73013) here since it's clearly related to this discussion and I was clearly surprised that some Christians are now debating this topic.  I sent an email with links to you two's articles.  I am sure that they would be surprised to see such dealt with in the reading despite all of the negativity surrounding this revelation.  It seems that it's something that the 'people of the book' have forgotten and maybe that's why the God mentions it clearly in His book.  It IS something important in our obligation/ system.

Thank you for the link to the article. I wasn?t aware that the issue of the timing was being challenged in Christian circles. It is finally about time. I think that what rational Christians are starting to realize is that the seven day week is a completely manmade arbitrary timeframe and that it is not tied to any objective cosmic phenomenon. Many have also undoubtedly been disturbed by the Roman pagan origin of the seven day week. I think that the issue addressed in the great reading is broader than this. It is not just about the week but it is about ?al-sabt? i.e., ?day of rest? or ?Holidays? in general. The god is indicating that we shouldn?t take a day of rest based on the false premise that the god authorized or required us to rest on that day. Based on the great reading, I don?t think that it matters if this ?day of rest? occurs every seven days, every month, every year or whatever time interval. So the condemnation of such practice equally applies to weekly Holidays such as Friday, Saturday or Sunday and to annual Holidays such as Eid, Christmas and so on. In general, I believe that it is OK to take time to relax and rest but we shouldn?t claim that the god ordered us to do so or authorized such specific days.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Umm Tariq on August 26, 2008, 01:29:25 AM
Peace Ayman,

Thanks so much for your post, it helped to clarify alot for me. 

I agree with you about using the term calendar, it's a strong argument.  I looked over the article again and I see you mentioned the 'year' being solar.  However, can this be summarized as we follow a solar year but yet we use the moon to determine certain events?

Excuse me for my mistake in the verses about pregnancy and weaning, I see the difference thanks.  I guess we are still left to figure out whether there is a difference between 'sanah' and 'aam'.

I got a reply from the woman of that article.  I am amazed at how open minded she is and the reply was really welcoming.  I also shared with her the same point that the God mentions about the sabt in relation to previous people but He is not asking us to observe such.  We are concerned about the fasting, hajj and the forbidden time period.

Thank you again and as more questions arise or I need help in clarifying an issue I will post except as the God wills.

Umm Tariq
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on August 27, 2008, 07:50:35 PM
Peace all;
It is one month according to your Lord; let me tell you why?

شَہۡرُ رَمَضَانَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أُنزِلَ فِيهِ ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ هُدً۬ى لِّلنَّاسِ وَبَيِّنَـٰتٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱلۡهُدَىٰ وَٱلۡفُرۡقَانِۚ فَمَن شَہِدَ مِنكُمُ ٱلشَّہۡرَ فَلۡيَصُمۡهُۖ وَمَن ڪَانَ مَرِيضًا أَوۡ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ۬ فَعِدَّةٌ۬ مِّنۡ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَۗ يُرِيدُ ٱللَّهُ بِڪُمُ ٱلۡيُسۡرَ وَلَا يُرِيدُ بِڪُمُ ٱلۡعُسۡرَ وَلِتُڪۡمِلُواْ ٱلۡعِدَّةَ وَلِتُڪَبِّرُواْ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ مَا هَدَٮٰكُمۡ وَلَعَلَّڪُمۡ تَشۡكُرُونَ (١٨٥)
Ramadan month  is the in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment. So everyone of you witness that month should fast it, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. (2-185)

Thus, the fasting is for a month of Ramadan.

Now how long is one month?

إِنَّ عِدَّةَ ٱلشُّہُورِ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ ٱثۡنَا عَشَرَ شَہۡرً۬ا فِى ڪِتَـٰبِ ٱللَّهِ يَوۡمَ خَلَقَ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضَ مِنۡہَآ أَرۡبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ۬ۚ ذَٲلِكَ ٱلدِّينُ ٱلۡقَيِّمُۚ فَلَا تَظۡلِمُواْ فِيہِنَّ أَنفُسَڪُمۡۚ وَقَـٰتِلُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِڪِينَ كَآفَّةً۬ ڪَمَا يُقَـٰتِلُونَكُمۡ ڪَآفَّةً۬ۚ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٣٦)

The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve― so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)

Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).

Moreover, the following would show the length of one month :

وَوَصَّيۡنَا ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنَ بِوَٲلِدَيۡهِ إِحۡسَـٰنًاۖ حَمَلَتۡهُ أُمُّهُ ۥ كُرۡهً۬ا وَوَضَعَتۡهُ كُرۡهً۬اۖ وَحَمۡلُهُ ۥ وَفِصَـٰلُهُ ۥ ثَلَـٰثُونَ شَہۡرًاۚ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ ۥ وَبَلَغَ أَرۡبَعِينَ سَنَةً۬ قَالَ رَبِّ أَوۡزِعۡنِىٓ أَنۡ أَشۡكُرَ نِعۡمَتَكَ ٱلَّتِىٓ أَنۡعَمۡتَ عَلَىَّ وَعَلَىٰ وَٲلِدَىَّ وَأَنۡ أَعۡمَلَ صَـٰلِحً۬ا تَرۡضَٮٰهُ وَأَصۡلِحۡ لِى فِى ذُرِّيَّتِىٓۖ إِنِّى تُبۡتُ إِلَيۡكَ وَإِنِّى مِنَ ٱلۡمُسۡلِمِينَ (١٥)

We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents: in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)

Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 days

وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى يَٮِٕسۡنَ مِنَ ٱلۡمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَآٮِٕكُمۡ إِنِ ٱرۡتَبۡتُمۡ فَعِدَّتُہُنَّ ثَلَـٰثَةُ أَشۡهُرٍ۬ وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى لَمۡ يَحِضۡنَۚ وَأُوْلَـٰتُ ٱلۡأَحۡمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعۡنَ حَمۡلَهُنَّۚ وَمَن يَتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ يَجۡعَل لَّهُ ۥ مِنۡ أَمۡرِهِۦ يُسۡرً۬ا (٤)

Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)

As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)

Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.

يَسۡـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلۡأَهِلَّةِۖ قُلۡ هِىَ مَوَٲقِيتُ لِلنَّاسِ وَٱلۡحَجِّۗ وَلَيۡسَ ٱلۡبِرُّ بِأَن تَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِن ظُهُورِهَا وَلَـٰكِنَّ ٱلۡبِرَّ مَنِ ٱتَّقَىٰۗ وَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِنۡ أَبۡوَٲبِهَاۚ وَٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ لَعَلَّڪُمۡ تُفۡلِحُونَ (١٨٩)

They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)

Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: simple on August 28, 2008, 05:31:46 AM
Salaams All,

Quote
So everyone of you witness that month should fast it

It is using lanes and the Quranic Dictionry something along the lines;

So everyone who sees or is witness to an act of treachury must shun it but if one doesn't realise the treachury they must shun it when they come to such a realisation later.

Of course we are all entiitled to our idols though , arn't we?


And remember just one month is named out a dozen?

And thirteen moons in a twelve month year!?

my conclusion;

There arn't any twelve months in the quran at all.

God Bless all.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on August 28, 2008, 07:56:57 AM
Peace Belal,

Please don't post the same exact comment in several threads. As far as I know the forum rules don't allow double posting, let alone triple-posting.

Moderators: I will address Belal's comments here on this thread.

It is one month according to your Lord; let me tell you why?
شَہۡرُ رَمَضَانَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أُنزِلَ فِيهِ ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ هُدً۬ى لِّلنَّاسِ وَبَيِّنَـٰتٍ۬ مِّنَ ٱلۡهُدَىٰ وَٱلۡفُرۡقَانِۚ فَمَن شَہِدَ مِنكُمُ ٱلشَّہۡرَ فَلۡيَصُمۡهُۖ وَمَن ڪَانَ مَرِيضًا أَوۡ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ۬ فَعِدَّةٌ۬ مِّنۡ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَۗ يُرِيدُ ٱللَّهُ بِڪُمُ ٱلۡيُسۡرَ وَلَا يُرِيدُ بِڪُمُ ٱلۡعُسۡرَ وَلِتُڪۡمِلُواْ ٱلۡعِدَّةَ وَلِتُڪَبِّرُواْ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ مَا هَدَٮٰكُمۡ وَلَعَلَّڪُمۡ تَشۡكُرُونَ (١٨٥)
Ramadan month  is the in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment. So everyone of you witness that month should fast it, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful. (2-185)
Thus, the fasting is for a month of Ramadan.

But 2:184 is clearly telling us that the fast is for a few days (ayam ma3doodat). So now you have created a contradiction between 2:184 and 2:185. Also, why would you need to complete the count of a month? A month is a month and there is no completion of a count issue. The only way that counting would be an issue is if "shahr ramadan" (the scorching full-moon) is a marker and not a timeframe.

Now how long is one month?
إِنَّ عِدَّةَ ٱلشُّہُورِ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ ٱثۡنَا عَشَرَ شَہۡرً۬ا فِى ڪِتَـٰبِ ٱللَّهِ يَوۡمَ خَلَقَ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضَ مِنۡہَآ أَرۡبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ۬ۚ ذَٲلِكَ ٱلدِّينُ ٱلۡقَيِّمُۚ فَلَا تَظۡلِمُواْ فِيہِنَّ أَنفُسَڪُمۡۚ وَقَـٰتِلُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِڪِينَ كَآفَّةً۬ ڪَمَا يُقَـٰتِلُونَكُمۡ ڪَآفَّةً۬ۚ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٣٦)
The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve― so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)
Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).

But 12x30 is 360 not 365. Why are you ignoring those extra five days? In fact there is NO calendar in the world that always has 30 days in a month.

Moreover, the following would show the length of one month :
وَوَصَّيۡنَا ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنَ بِوَٲلِدَيۡهِ إِحۡسَـٰنًاۖ حَمَلَتۡهُ أُمُّهُ ۥ كُرۡهً۬ا وَوَضَعَتۡهُ كُرۡهً۬اۖ وَحَمۡلُهُ ۥ وَفِصَـٰلُهُ ۥ ثَلَـٰثُونَ شَہۡرًاۚ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ ۥ وَبَلَغَ أَرۡبَعِينَ سَنَةً۬ قَالَ رَبِّ أَوۡزِعۡنِىٓ أَنۡ أَشۡكُرَ نِعۡمَتَكَ ٱلَّتِىٓ أَنۡعَمۡتَ عَلَىَّ وَعَلَىٰ وَٲلِدَىَّ وَأَنۡ أَعۡمَلَ صَـٰلِحً۬ا تَرۡضَٮٰهُ وَأَصۡلِحۡ لِى فِى ذُرِّيَّتِىٓۖ إِنِّى تُبۡتُ إِلَيۡكَ وَإِنِّى مِنَ ٱلۡمُسۡلِمِينَ (١٥)
We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents: in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)
Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 days

The word "shahr" means "full-moon" it doesn't mean 10 days. So your entire argument is based on nothing but a misunderstanding.

وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى يَٮِٕسۡنَ مِنَ ٱلۡمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَآٮِٕكُمۡ إِنِ ٱرۡتَبۡتُمۡ فَعِدَّتُہُنَّ ثَلَـٰثَةُ أَشۡهُرٍ۬ وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى لَمۡ يَحِضۡنَۚ وَأُوْلَـٰتُ ٱلۡأَحۡمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعۡنَ حَمۡلَهُنَّۚ وَمَن يَتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ يَجۡعَل لَّهُ ۥ مِنۡ أَمۡرِهِۦ يُسۡرً۬ا (٤)
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)
As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)
Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.

The average for menstruation is not 30 days. No woman I know menstruates for 30 days continuously (thank god because this would be a pretty miserable thing).  Menstruation, like the full-moon is an event. So when the god is telling women in 2:228 to count three menstruations, how do they count them? Do they count 90 days? Or do they count three menstruations (three events). Those two things are not the same and depending on when the woman's menstruation last occurred may give totally different results.

يَسۡـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلۡأَهِلَّةِۖ قُلۡ هِىَ مَوَٲقِيتُ لِلنَّاسِ وَٱلۡحَجِّۗ وَلَيۡسَ ٱلۡبِرُّ بِأَن تَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِن ظُهُورِهَا وَلَـٰكِنَّ ٱلۡبِرَّ مَنِ ٱتَّقَىٰۗ وَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِنۡ أَبۡوَٲبِهَاۚ وَٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ لَعَلَّڪُمۡ تُفۡلِحُونَ (١٨٩)
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)
Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.

This translation is false. The word "ahilat" doesn't mean new moons. It means crescents in general (both the waning and the waxing crescent). Also, the term "mawaqeet/meeqat"" in 2:189 is used in the great reading to describe timing of when something ends not only when something begins.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on August 28, 2008, 04:00:48 PM
Peace Belal,

Please don't post the same exact comment in several threads. As far as I know the forum rules don't allow double posting, let alone triple-posting.

Moderators: I will address Belal's comments here on this thread.


Peace Ayman,

My intention of doing so is very clear to my Lord; thus I had to do it even if would upset others. (Sorry)

But 2:184 is clearly telling us that the fast is for a few days (ayam ma3doodat).

No, it means counted days; in other words, days that we can count and agree upon.
The root word for Ma3dodat is "3ad" which means Count.
 The word Few is a translation of the arabic word " Kaleel". please see the use of such word in more than hundered verses (e.g., 7-86)


So now you have created a contradiction between 2:184 and 2:185.

In 184 god says that fasting is for days that we can count, and in 185 He tell us about their count--the month of Ramadan (from the start of the Moon untill the start of the other moon--29 to 30 days).

Please note that God's order is     فَمَن شَہِدَ مِنكُمُ ٱلشَّہۡرَ فَلۡيَصُمۡهُۖ  

The letter "Ha" at the end of the word " Fa-lia-som-ha" (Fast it) refers to the word before, "The Month".


But 12x30 is 360 not 365. Why are you ignoring those extra five days? In fact there is NO calendar in the world that always has 30 days in a month.

Do you want to go off our main issue because of the five days ???
Well, go ask some one who can tell you why the Arabic calander is less that christian calander by 10 days (the Moslems use the moon and the other use the sun).

The word "shahr" means "full-moon" it doesn't mean 10 days. So your entire argument is based on nothing but a misunderstanding.

Well, your understanding is yours, and not God's. God told us that the year has 12 months, which all of us can tastify that is true. for example, if I see a tree that its leafs are falling, I can see the same event again after 12 month.

The average for menstruation is not 30 days. No woman I know menstruates for 30 days continuously (thank god because this would be a pretty miserable thing). 


Well, it is funny :rotfl:
Now, if a woman her period starts in June 1, 2008, then the 2nd will start in July 1, 2008.
How long it will stay is an answer that I did not provied.

when the god is telling women in 2:228 to count three menstruations, how do they count them? Do they count 90 days? Or do they count three menstruations (three events). Those two things are not the same and depending on when the woman's menstruation last occurred may give totally different results.
True, but
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months  
, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)

This translation is false. The word "ahilat" doesn't mean new moons. It means crescents in general (both the waning and the waxing crescent).

Agree


Also, the term "mawaqeet/meeqat"" in 2:189 is used in the great reading to describe timing of when something ends not only when something begins.


Ok...Now the Month of Ramadan starts when we see the crescents, which means the end of the month before it (Shaban).


Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on August 29, 2008, 10:21:36 PM
Peace Belal,

My intention of doing so is very clear to my Lord; thus I had to do it even if would upset others. (Sorry)

It doesn't upset others. The idea is that if everyone posted every message on three or four threads, then people will just start ignoring the messages the same way they ignore other repeated messages such as spam. So spaming the board with the exact same message on several threads is not productive.

No, it means counted days; in other words, days that we can count and agree upon.
The root word for Ma3dodat is "3ad" which means Count.
 The word Few is a translation of the arabic word " Kaleel". please see the use of such word in more than hundered verses (e.g., 7-86)

This is false because in 12:20 we hear that Youssef was bought cheaply with a "few" Dirhams. What is the point if "counted" can mean any count such as a Million Dirhams?

Also, You are again ignoring to address the redundancy. Why say counted days and then saying what is according to you is 30 days (or whichever haphazard number you want to use for "month").

In 184 god says that fasting is for days that we can count, and in 185 He tell us about their count--the month of Ramadan (from the start of the Moon untill the start of the other moon--29 to 30 days).

Which is it that we are going to count 29 or 30? You can only COUNT one of them. Otherwise again what is the point of sayign "count" if it was going to be based on the moon cycle anyway and what you are counting is irrelevant?

Also, why say "complete the count in 2:185 if it was already given as "30 days" or whatever "month" you conjure up.

Please note that God's order is     فَمَن شَہِدَ مِنكُمُ ٱلشَّہۡرَ فَلۡيَصُمۡهُۖ  
The letter "Ha" at the end of the word " Fa-lia-som-ha" (Fast it) refers to the word before, "The Month".

So how do you witness a "month"? Isn't witnessing about SEEING? How can one see a "month"?

Also, "Fa-lia-som-ha" certainly doesn't mean "fasting the month or the entire period" since everyone would die if they fast "the month". So this is merely an indicator of the fast but it doesn't prescribe the number of days (a complete few days, i.e. 10) nor the length of the fast (dawn to sunset). Those are clarified by other means.

Do you want to go off our main issue because of the five days ???

It is the main issue but because you have no idea what to do with your missing five days you are now suddenly deciding that it is not the main issue.

Well, go ask some one who can tell you why the Arabic calander is less that christian calander by 10 days (the Moslems use the moon and the other use the sun).

But you use neither the sun or the moon. You made up an imaginary calendar with 30 days in a month. If you are simply copying the traditional so-called Moslem calendar then just say so.

Well, your understanding is yours, and not God's. God told us that the year has 12 months, which all of us can tastify that is true. for example, if I see a tree that its leafs are falling, I can see the same event again after 12 month.

Say this to yourself. If you are using the false so-called Moslem calendar the seasons will certainly shift. Also, using your false 360 days calendar, after a few years the seasons will also shift.

Well, it is funny :rotfl:
Now, if a woman her period starts in June 1, 2008, then the 2nd will start in July 1, 2008.
How long it will stay is an answer that I did not provied.

So do you now agree to the indisputable fact that when the woman counts the menstruation she is counting the number of EVENTS and not how long it lasts?

True, but
Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months  
, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)

So what is this "month"? Is it your imaginary 30 day month or some other "month"?

Or is counting the "shahr" the same like counting menstruations and waiting for the delivery of the baby. In other words, it is based on EVENTS and not some haphazard 30 day imaginary month.

Agree
Ok...Now the Month of Ramadan starts when we see the crescents, which means the end of the month before it (Shaban).

So when does Shaban start?

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on August 30, 2008, 09:27:28 AM
This is false because in 12:20 we hear that Youssef was bought cheaply with a "few" Dirhams. What is the point if "counted" can mean any count such as a Million Dirhams?

Peace,
Again, we can not translate the arabic words as you and all of us wish; In Yousuf story, God said "Thamen Bakth" which means Cheap Price, before saying a "Drahim M3dodat" which means a COUNTED Drahem. Do you think a human being Like Yousuf is Worth such a price in God's Opinion or not (Cheap)?

Please...please, M3dodat means "can be Counted" and NOT FEW, according to ITS ROOT WORD

What is the Root Word For M3dodat?

Also, You are again ignoring to address the redundancy. Why say counted days and then saying what is according to you is 30 days (or whichever haphazard number you want to use for "month").

In Islamic Calender, The number of days in each month depends on the Moon Cycle--From born "Crescent) untill becomes Crescent again after 29 or 30 (and my believe is that it could be 31 as well).

They ask thee concerning the Crescent. Say: they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men....... (2-189)

And that is how we count the days of the period.

Which is it that we are going to count 29 or 30? You can only COUNT one of them. Otherwise again what is the point of sayign "count" if it was going to be based on the moon cycle anyway and what you are counting is irrelevant?

I answered above.
Our main point is should we fast for a whole month or not, and what is the count of one month, is it 10 days or no less than Moon Cycle (28 0r 29 or 30 days).


So how do you witness a "month"? Isn't witnessing about SEEING? How can one see a "month"?

To witness the Moon Crescent (2-189), per what GOD SAID.

Also, "Fa-lia-som-ha" certainly doesn't mean "fasting the month or the entire period" since everyone would die if they fast "the month". So this is merely an indicator of the fast but it doesn't prescribe the number of days (a complete few days, i.e. 10) nor the length of the fast (dawn to sunset). Those are clarified by other means.

We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things contentious. (18-54)

We like to argue, do we? ;D
How to fast per day, and for how many days is shown in the Quran in chapter two.

It is the main issue but because you have no idea what to do with your missing five days you are now suddenly deciding that it is not the main issue.

But you use neither the sun or the moon. You made up an imaginary calendar with 30 days in a month. If you are simply copying the traditional so-called Moslem calendar then just say so.
I used the Quran as shown above :jedi:

Say this to yourself. If you are using the false so-called Moslem calendar the seasons will certainly shift. Also, using your false 360 days calendar, after a few years the seasons will also shift.
Finally, now you agree that after 12 month period = 4 seasons. thus one month can not equal 10 days as you said.

So do you now agree to the indisputable fact that when the woman counts the menstruation she is counting the number of EVENTS and not how long it lasts?
That is what I said before, and that is what logic says, but you like to argue 9as all humans do, including me).

So what is this "month"? Is it your imaginary 30 day month or some other "month"?

Or is counting the "shahr" the same like counting menstruations and waiting for the delivery of the baby. In other words, it is based on EVENTS and not some haphazard 30 day imaginary month.

Go back and read the verse (65-4) that you answered for, and you will know what I meant.

So when does Shaban start?

When we finish debating Ramadan, you can start another thread for Shaban.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: alalmakt on August 30, 2008, 04:30:14 PM
Peace,

I have an issue which is related to this debate.

[2:185] شهر رمضان الذي انزل فيه القران هدي للناس وبينات من الهدي والفرقان فمن شهد منكم الشهر فليصمه ومن كان منكم مريضا او علي سفر فعدة من ايام اخر يريد الله بكم اليسر ولايريد بكم العسر ولتكملوا العدة ولتكبروا الله علي ما هداكم ولعلكم تشكرون

Regarding this verse, based on my limited understanding of Arabic, Ramadhan seems to be used as a noun.

I think this because within the verse, it says  فمن شهد منكم الشهر which I translate to: so whoever witnesses from yourselves the month. If Ramadhan was not a noun it would have had to say something like: فمن شهد منكم شهر رمضان .

I am a beginner in Arabic so would someone who is more experienced in Arabic please clarify for me please.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on August 30, 2008, 05:47:25 PM
Peace,

I have an issue which is related to this debate.

[2:185] شهر رمضان الذي انزل فيه القران هدي للناس وبينات من الهدي والفرقان فمن شهد منكم الشهر فليصمه ومن كان منكم مريضا او علي سفر فعدة من ايام اخر يريد الله بكم اليسر ولايريد بكم العسر ولتكملوا العدة ولتكبروا الله علي ما هداكم ولعلكم تشكرون

Regarding this verse, based on my limited understanding of Arabic, Ramadhan seems to be used as a noun.

I think this because within the verse, it says  فمن شهد منكم الشهر which I translate to: so whoever witnesses from yourselves the month. If Ramadhan was not a noun it would have had to say something like: فمن شهد منكم شهر رمضان .

I am a beginner in Arabic so would someone who is more experienced in Arabic please clarify for me please.
Peace:
Ramadan is the Name of the Month, which means it is a Noun.

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Ahmad Bilal on August 31, 2008, 08:55:57 AM
Peace:
Ramadan is the Name of the Month, which means it is a Noun.

Peace

Peace to all.

This is conjecture. How do you know that "ramadhan" was the "Name of the Month" back when al-Qur'an was revealed? You base your number of days (in a "month") on the so-called Islamic calendar. However, how do you know this calendar is correct? Who devised this calendar, God or men?

The period is referred to as "shahru ramadhan". In this verse/description, "ramadhan" is not used as a noun, it's used as an adjective, describing the time frame ("scorching/extreme heat"). "Shahru" is used in the noun form. So, even if "shahru" was referring to a "month", it would translate to the "month of extreme heat" - it's not naming the period, it's describing it. So, how do you know when this extremely hot month is?

In the story of Youssef, it uses the description "few", not "counted" - this is emphasized by "thamen bakth". This "cheap price" was the description of the "few dirhams" - the "few" (not 'counted') coins made the price "cheap". You can still count many dirhams, but this would not add up to a "cheap price" unless the number was "few".

Peace.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on August 31, 2008, 09:19:29 AM
Peace to all.

This is conjecture. How do you know that "ramadhan" was the "Name of the Month" back when al-Qur'an was revealed?

God said that

شهر رمضان الذي انزل فيه القران

You base your number of days (in a "month") on the so-called Islamic calendar. However, how do you know this calendar is correct? Who devised this calendar, God or men?

I based my number on the following logic and Quran:

Now how long is one month?

إِنَّ عِدَّةَ ٱلشُّہُورِ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ ٱثۡنَا عَشَرَ شَہۡرً۬ا فِى ڪِتَـٰبِ ٱللَّهِ يَوۡمَ خَلَقَ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضَ مِنۡہَآ أَرۡبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ۬ۚ ذَٲلِكَ ٱلدِّينُ ٱلۡقَيِّمُۚ فَلَا تَظۡلِمُواْ فِيہِنَّ أَنفُسَڪُمۡۚ وَقَـٰتِلُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِڪِينَ كَآفَّةً۬ ڪَمَا يُقَـٰتِلُونَكُمۡ ڪَآفَّةً۬ۚ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٣٦)

The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve
― so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)

Thus, one year is 12 months. And as we know, one year is the time when 4 seasons are completed (Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter), 365 days. Thus, one month is about 30 days. And if one month is ten days, then the year would be 12 month X 10 = 120 days (two seasons only).

Moreover, the following would show the length of one month :

وَوَصَّيۡنَا ٱلۡإِنسَـٰنَ بِوَٲلِدَيۡهِ إِحۡسَـٰنًاۖ حَمَلَتۡهُ أُمُّهُ ۥ كُرۡهً۬ا وَوَضَعَتۡهُ كُرۡهً۬اۖ وَحَمۡلُهُ ۥ وَفِصَـٰلُهُ ۥ ثَلَـٰثُونَ شَہۡرًاۚ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ أَشُدَّهُ ۥ وَبَلَغَ أَرۡبَعِينَ سَنَةً۬ قَالَ رَبِّ أَوۡزِعۡنِىٓ أَنۡ أَشۡكُرَ نِعۡمَتَكَ ٱلَّتِىٓ أَنۡعَمۡتَ عَلَىَّ وَعَلَىٰ وَٲلِدَىَّ وَأَنۡ أَعۡمَلَ صَـٰلِحً۬ا تَرۡضَٮٰهُ وَأَصۡلِحۡ لِى فِى ذُرِّيَّتِىٓۖ إِنِّى تُبۡتُ إِلَيۡكَ وَإِنِّى مِنَ ٱلۡمُسۡلِمِينَ (١٥)

We have enjoined on man Kindness to his parents: in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is thirty months
. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favor, which Thou hast bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam." (46-15)

Is that how long does it take and not 30 month X 10 days= 300 days

وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى يَٮِٕسۡنَ مِنَ ٱلۡمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَآٮِٕكُمۡ إِنِ ٱرۡتَبۡتُمۡ فَعِدَّتُہُنَّ ثَلَـٰثَةُ أَشۡهُرٍ۬ وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى لَمۡ يَحِضۡنَۚ وَأُوْلَـٰتُ ٱلۡأَحۡمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعۡنَ حَمۡلَهُنَّۚ وَمَن يَتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ يَجۡعَل لَّهُ ۥ مِنۡ أَمۡرِهِۦ يُسۡرً۬ا (٤)

Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months
, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. (65-4)

As we all know, the woman gets her period every month (average every thirty days)

Thus, we have to Fast for one Month that equals 30 days average.

يَسۡـَٔلُونَكَ عَنِ ٱلۡأَهِلَّةِۖ قُلۡ هِىَ مَوَٲقِيتُ لِلنَّاسِ وَٱلۡحَجِّۗ وَلَيۡسَ ٱلۡبِرُّ بِأَن تَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِن ظُهُورِهَا وَلَـٰكِنَّ ٱلۡبِرَّ مَنِ ٱتَّقَىٰۗ وَأۡتُواْ ٱلۡبُيُوتَ مِنۡ أَبۡوَٲبِهَاۚ وَٱتَّقُواْ ٱللَّهَ لَعَلَّڪُمۡ تُفۡلِحُونَ (١٨٩)

They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)

Thus? the mark of Ramadan month is the beginning of new moon.

The period is referred to as "shahru ramadhan". In this verse/description, "ramadhan" is not used as a noun, it's used as an adjective, describing the time frame ("scorching/extreme heat"). "Shahru" is used in the noun form. So, even if "shahru" was referring to a "month", it would translate to the "month of extreme heat" - it's not naming the period, it's describing it. So, how do you know when this extremely hot month is?

So, based on your logic, the Quran was revealed in the month of extreme heat.

Is it June or July or August or September, as you know all these months are Hot in the region where the Quran was revealed.

Thus, your argument is wrong. Ramadan is a Name that is refreing to the time when Quran was revealed to prophet Mohamed and when Moslems should Fast.

In the story of Youssef, it uses the description "few", not "counted" - this is emphasized by "thamen bakth". This "cheap price" was the description of the "few dirhams" - the "few" (not 'counted') coins made the price "cheap". You can still count many dirhams, but this would not add up to a "cheap price" unless the number was "few".

Peace.

Cheap price is what these people paid for Yousuf; Do you think 30 Derahm is Cheap as a Price For Yousuf?
No I take it that 30 Deraham is too much for Him, according to your Logic.
Again, Draham M3dodatt means "Counted Draham" and Never "Few Draham", according to its Root Word.

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on August 31, 2008, 09:54:23 AM
Peace All

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/moon_phases.php

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/idltemp/current_moon.php

In the above link, you can witness the Moon size (every day) and the way Moslem calculate one Period (one Month), as they were instructed by Quran.
Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on August 31, 2008, 12:16:19 PM
It is the main issue but because you have no idea what to do with your missing five days you are now suddenly deciding that it is not the main issue.

Ayman
Peace:
That would answer your Question:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on August 31, 2008, 08:50:27 PM
Peace Belal,

Again, we can not translate the arabic words as you and all of us wish; In Yousuf story, God said "Thamen Bakth" which means Cheap Price, before saying a "Drahim M3dodat" which means a COUNTED Drahem. Do you think a human being Like Yousuf is Worth such a price in God's Opinion or not (Cheap)?
Please...please, M3dodat means "can be Counted" and NOT FEW, according to ITS ROOT WORD

A Million Dirham can be counted. What is the point of saying "Drahim M3dodat"? By disregarding the meaning for ?Ma3doodat? as "few" as confirmed by the context in the great reading and dictionaries you are making the term ?Darahim Ma3doodat? pointless.

What is the Root Word For M3dodat?

The root is not a good indicator by itself. You cannot blindly take the root as the meaning that equally applies to all the forms. Take for example, ?infaq? (spending) and ?nifaq? (hypocrisy): two totally different meanings from the same root NFQ (spend). Meanings are not developed in a vacuum and the Arabic language is not some divine language that suddenly descended from the sky. One must intelligently use the context to help determine the meaning.

In Islamic Calender, The number of days in each month depends on the Moon Cycle--From born "Crescent) untill becomes Crescent again after 29 or 30 (and my believe is that it could be 31 as well).
They ask thee concerning the Crescent. Say: they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men....... (2-189)
And that is how we count the days of the period.

The lunar cycle cannot be 31 days, unless perhaps you live on a different planet. :D

If you are promoting the so-called Islamic calendar then you are contradicting what you said on August 29th. Here it is again because it seems that you forgot your own words:

Quote from: belalhammad
God told us that the year has 12 months, which all of us can tastify that is true. for example, if I see a tree that its leafs are falling, I can see the same event again after 12 month.

It is an indisputable fact that in the so-called Islamic Calendar you will not see the same event of the leaves falling after 12 months and in a few years you will not be even close and you will be seeing summer instead of fall. So the entire basis of your reasoning is essentially contradictory.

I answered above.
Our main point is should we fast for a whole month or not, and what is the count of one month, is it 10 days or no less than Moon Cycle (28 0r 29 or 30 days).

You have made a long post as if you are presenting some new understanding but in reality you are doing nothing but repeating the old nonsensical and completely useless so-called Islamic Calendar. All that you really did is prove that your logic is even less well thought out than even Sunnis as you demonstrated by your leaf falling contradiction.

To witness the Moon Crescent (2-189), per what GOD SAID.
We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things contentious. (18-54)
We like to argue, do we? ;D
How to fast per day, and for how many days is shown in the Quran in chapter two.

This is what you are conjuring up and it is certainly not what the god said. The word ?witness? or ?shahr? doesn?t even appear in 2:189. Also, which crescent? There are two crescents, the waxing and the waning and the period between the end of one and the beginning of the other is only 20 days. If the crescent is used as you conjecture then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days not 30, 29 or 31 ;D. 

If the crescent is to be witnessed then why didn?t the god say ?whoever witnesses the crescent? in 2:185? Instead, he clearly said whoever witnesses the ?shahr?. ?Shahr? means full-moon according to its etymology and Classical Arabic dictionaries.

I used the Quran as shown above :jedi:

This is the same exact thing Sunnis say about their so-called Islamic calendar. They also say ?it is based in the Quran? but then they fail to address the contradictions. They try to force their preconceived "Islamic Calendar" to fit the great reading exactly like you are doing.

Finally, now you agree that after 12 month period = 4 seasons. thus one month can not equal 10 days as you said.

You are the only one on this forum who is saying that one month is equal to 10 days. I didn?t say that. The only thing that you are proving by repeating this is that you like the logical fallacy of a strawman.

That is what I said before, and that is what logic says, but you like to argue 9as all humans do, including me).
Go back and read the verse (65-4) that you answered for, and you will know what I meant.

So if you now understand that we are counting events then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days and this is an indisputable fact. I hope that now you can see why Sunnis had to falsify 2:189 to say ?New Moons? and not ?crescents?.

When we finish debating Ramadan, you can start another thread for Shaban.

But your completely arbitrary Ramadan is 100% dependent on when Shaaban occurred and this has nothing to do with anything in the great reading. So stop pretending that you are basing your Ramadan on the ?Quran?. You don?t even know the basics such as what the word ?ramadan? means, let alone anything about the timing. I would suggest that you start by learning the meaning of the words first before drawing a conclusion.

You can see the meanings in Classical Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan Al-3arab as I quoted earlier on this thread or summarized here:

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 01, 2008, 11:04:51 AM
Peace Belal,

A Million Dirham can be counted. What is the point of saying "Drahim M3dodat"? By disregarding the meaning for ?Ma3doodat? as "few" as confirmed by the context in the great reading and dictionaries you are making the term ?Darahim Ma3doodat? pointless.

 وَشَرَوۡهُ بِثَمَنِۭ بَخۡسٍ۬ دَرَٲهِمَ مَعۡدُودَةٍ۬

Ayman, what happened? Why cann't you see where God said "Cheap Price" before "Counted Draham".
Do you think Counted Draham can be 30 Derham, and still a Cheap price for Yousuf? Please give me a Straight Answer.

The root is not a good indicator by itself.
You cannot blindly take the root as the meaning that equally applies to all the forms.


Now, I can tell that you do not like to be Wrong, and you will twist every thing logic to fit and support your opinion--HUMAN EGO.

One must intelligently use the context to help determine the meaning.

Agree, where M3dodatt can mean Few, when "Bakss" gave the mening of Cheap.


 وَشَرَوۡهُ بِثَمَنِۭ بَخۡسٍ۬ دَرَٲهِمَ مَعۡدُودَةٍ۬

Where can you indecate that M3dodatt would equal 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or even 1000 Deraham, when such number is still Cheap for Yousuf.

The lunar cycle cannot be 31 days, unless perhaps you live on a different planet. :D

Agree.


If you are promoting the so-called Islamic calendar then you are contradicting what you said on August 29th. Here it is again because it seems that you forgot your own words:

It is an indisputable fact that in the so-called Islamic Calendar you will not see the same event of the leaves falling after 12 months and in a few years you will not be even close and you will be seeing summer instead of fall. So the entire basis of your reasoning is essentially contradictory.

The wisdom behind why Ramadan will shift in season every 10 years is in this thread http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0
but you are runing from answreing to such wisdom which proves God Justics between his creatuers.
 The Islamic Calander is full of times for many worshiping duties, such as Hajj, Ramadan. Now Why do you think the Season will matter for such duties.
Why do you think All Moslems Should Fast in June, when June is Hot in the USA and Arab Contries and Cold in South Africa, and Spring in another part of the Word. So your point is meaningless in South Africa.
Why are you so Fixed on that June is a Month of Heat All over the Earth.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0

This is what you are conjuring up and it is certainly not what the god said. The word ?witness? or ?shahr? doesn?t even appear in 2:189. Also, which crescent? There are two crescents, the waxing and the waning and the period between the end of one and the beginning of the other is only 20 days. If the crescent is used as you conjecture then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days not 30, 29 or 31 ;D. 

From the Waxing to the next Waxing is 1 Month; from the Waning to the Waning is one Month, and From Full to Full is One Month.

If the crescent is to be witnessed then why didn?t the god say ?whoever witnesses the crescent? in 2:185? Instead, he clearly said whoever witnesses the ?shahr?. ?Shahr? means full-moon according to its etymology and Classical Arabic dictionaries.

Ayman, You are Associating a wrong information to God's Religion.
Where in the Quran Can the word Shar be translated as Full Moon.

Shar is a Month period which is measuered by the Moon Cycle

It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for it: that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). No wise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand. (10-5)

So if you now understand that we are counting events then the time between two consecutive crescents is about 20 days and this is an indisputable fact. I hope that now you can see why Sunnis had to falsify 2:189 to say ?New Moons? and not ?crescents?.
Again, From Waxing Crescent to Waxing is one Month. Does that equal 20 days :confused:


Happy Ramadan to every Fasting Moslem
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 01, 2008, 03:21:22 PM
Peace Belal,

وَشَرَوۡهُ بِثَمَنِۭ بَخۡسٍ۬ دَرَٲهِمَ مَعۡدُودَةٍ۬
Ayman, what happened? Why cann't you see where God said "Cheap Price" before "Counted Draham".
Do you think Counted Draham can be 30 Derham, and still a Cheap price for Yousuf? Please give me a Straight Answer.

Prove that "counted" means 30 and not 100, a Million or any number.

Now, I can tell that you do not like to be Wrong, and you will twist every thing logic to fit and support your opinion--HUMAN EGO.

You are simply evading to address the fact that "infaq" and "nifaq" coming from the same root and yet having completely different meanings. It is not my opinion This is an indisputable fact. You are really in no position to give any opinion about anything relating to the Arabic language if you are ignorant of this most basic of facts.

Agree, where M3dodatt can mean Few, when "Bakss" gave the mening of Cheap.
 وَشَرَوۡهُ بِثَمَنِۭ بَخۡسٍ۬ دَرَٲهِمَ مَعۡدُودَةٍ۬
Where can you indecate that M3dodatt would equal 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or even 1000 Deraham, when such number is still Cheap for Yousuf.

The idea of "cheap" is already covered by "bakhs". If it is any number as you falsely claim then the term "ma3doodat" is redundant. It is not my problem that you can't understand this simple logic.

Agree.

If you agree then stop making such ridiculous statements and focus on the issue.

The wisdom behind why Ramadan will shift in season every 10 years is in this thread http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0
but you are runing from answreing to such wisdom which proves God Justics between his creatuers.
 The Islamic Calander is full of times for many worshiping duties, such as Hajj, Ramadan. Now Why do you think the Season will matter for such duties.
Why do you think All Moslems Should Fast in June, when June is Hot in the USA and Arab Contries and Cold in South Africa, and Spring in another part of the Word. So your point is meaningless in South Africa.
Why are you so Fixed on that June is a Month of Heat All over the Earth.
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596845.0

Why can't you make up your mind? What happened to your statement about the falling leaf to falling leaf? You are clearly confused.

Also, everything on earth follows the solar cycle. All the animals follow the solar cycle. Since 9:36 and the four restricted "shahr" (full-moons) are about the hunting restrictions then certainly the timing for them has to be in line with the seasons.

The so-called Islamic calendar on the other hand is completely about false manmade religious duties that are irrelevant to the natural order of things.

From the Waxing to the next Waxing is 1 Month; from the Waning to the Waning is one Month, and From Full to Full is One Month.

But 2:189 doesn't say "waxing" or "waning". It simply says "crescent". The time between two consecutive crescents is either 20 days or 1 day. It is NEVER 30 or 29 days. You admitted that "ahilat" means "crescents" and not "new moons". Are you now flip-flopping on this like you did with the "falling leaf to falling leaf" analogy. Again, this only demonstrates that you are hopelessly confused.

Ayman, You are Associating a wrong information to God's Religion.
Where in the Quran Can the word Shar be translated as Full Moon.

Where does it say in the Quran that "shahr" can be translated as month?

The meaning of full moon fits in all the occurences of the word "shahr" and it perfectly corrects the issue of the timing.

Shar is a Month period which is measuered by the Moon Cycle

What moon cycle? The time between two consecutive crescents is 20 days or 1 day. Only the time between full moons is going to work. Also, only the full-moon can be easily witnessed by everyone. I guarantee that despite all the noise that you are making, you have never witnessed the new moon.

It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for it: that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). No wise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand. (10-5)

Why are you ignoring the sun?

Again, From Waxing Crescent to Waxing is one Month. Does that equal 20 days :confused:

You are confused because you are ignoring 2:189 which clearly says "crescent" and not waxing crescent.

Happy Ramadan to every Fasting Moslem

If you knew the meaning of the word "ramadan" and were able to translate it then you would have realized that what you are saying is pure nonsense.

How do you expect to convince anyone if you don't even know the meaning of the very word "ramadan"?

I already gave you the link to the article and you can see it on the first page of this thread:

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm

If you see anything wrong with the article then point it out. Meanwhile, I am not going to waste anymore of my time on your uninformed arguments when you don't even want to learn the basics such as the meaning of "ramadan", the central word in 2:185.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 01, 2008, 04:30:46 PM
Peace Belal,

Prove that "counted" means 30 and not 100, a Million or any number.

 :confused:

It does not mean a spacific count unless given. Thus M3doodat does not mean Few or Too Much, but means Counted.

You are simply evading to address the fact that "infaq" and "nifaq" coming from the same root and yet having completely different meanings. It is not my opinion This is an indisputable fact. You are really in no position to give any opinion about anything relating to the Arabic language if you are ignorant of this most basic of facts.

Examples of how God Used the Word M3doodat, (beside the example of Rammadan and Yousuf):

Nor shall We delay it but for a counted term. (11-104)
وَمَا نُؤَخِّرُهُ ۥۤ إِلَّا لِأَجَلٍ۬ مَّعۡدُودٍ۬ (١٠٤)


وَقَالُواْ لَن تَمَسَّنَا ٱلنَّارُ إِلَّآ أَيَّامً۬ا مَّعۡدُودَةً۬‌ۚ

And they say: "The fire shall not touch us but for a numbered days";.....(2-80)

Ayman, again, M3doodat means Counted.

The idea of "cheap" is already covered by "bakhs". If it is any number as you falsely claim then the term "ma3doodat" is redundant. It is not my problem that you can't understand this simple logic.

You are going NUTS;

I never said that M3doodat means any number. But you are trying to say that M3doodat is Few and less Than 30. In other words, you are trying to prove lies using twisted words. ;D

Why can't you make up your mind? What happened to your statement about the falling leaf to falling leaf? You are clearly confused.

Another use of the Word M3dodat is :

إِنَّ عِدَّةَ ٱلشُّہُورِ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ ٱثۡنَا عَشَرَ شَہۡرً۬ا فِى ڪِتَـٰبِ ٱللَّهِ يَوۡمَ خَلَقَ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضَ مِنۡہَآ أَرۡبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ۬ۚ ذَٲلِكَ ٱلدِّينُ ٱلۡقَيِّمُۚ فَلَا تَظۡلِمُواْ فِيہِنَّ أَنفُسَڪُمۡۚ وَقَـٰتِلُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِڪِينَ كَآفَّةً۬ ڪَمَا يُقَـٰتِلُونَكُمۡ ڪَآفَّةً۬ۚ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٣٦)

The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve
― so ordained by Him in the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred; that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. (9-36)

Thus, the Number of Months is 12;
Now, 12 X 20 days= 240 day, Still less than one year.

Ayman, we have to Fast for the period of one Month, and the year has 12 Month; and each month starts and ends during one Moon Cycle (28, 29, 30 days).

Now you want to Fast do, if not, please Keep it to yourself.


Also, everything on earth follows the solar cycle. All the animals follow the solar cycle. Since 9:36 and the four restricted "shahr" (full-moons) are about the hunting restrictions then certainly the timing for them has to be in line with the seasons.


Ayman, the time of the 4 seasons in Mecca are different from Russa or South Africa.
If Ramadan in June every year because of Heat, then all Moslems all over the word will have to be in area that is Hot. In other words, people in South Africa Can not Fast.

But 2:189 doesn't say "waxing" or "waning".

Ayman, Waxing is when the Moon appears after disappearing.
Waning is when the Moon is Disappearing

Thus, How can you confuse yourself, when calculating one Moon Cycle (Month). Should it be a Complete Cycle or half Cycle.

I have to go, the time for Breakfasting is comming soon.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 01, 2008, 08:26:35 PM
Peace Belal, everyone,

All your questions were answered here:

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm

If there is an error with the article then point it out. Meanwhile, I am not going to waste my time on your mindless arguments where you are merely trying to justify your sectarian preconceptions about "ramadan" while you are clueless about even simple things such as what the word means.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 02, 2008, 10:06:39 AM
Peace,

I'm sorry but I have to jump in for the sake of fairness. Ma'dood primarily means 'counted' and CAN also be used to mean a few. It's like telling someone their days are numbered. That obviously implies that they don't have many more days to live and they might as well count them. It is an expression. So whereas numbered here means few that is not the primary meaning of the word. With that said ma'dood carries a similar usage, but its primary meaning is 'counted/numbered', be that many, moderate or few.

Conclusion: We have two meanings here to this word. Context and logic will point to which one is most appropriate in this context. Unfortunately this depends on a person's desire to see a context that might go against his or her agenda. For those who know me I agree with the meaning of 'counted/numbered' in this context, and NOT 'few.' 'Counted' has a meaning of 'limited' or 'specific number.' Ma'dood can also mean 'countable.' That means that there is a limited amount of days and not an indefinite amount, which might be interpreted with just the use of 'days.'

So scour at me, hate me or call me ridiculous as well but I think the conclusion of 'few days' for this context is a distortion of logic, context and knowledge about the meanings of this word.

Godbless,
Anwar

Now I do believe that Ramadan means hot season, and that peopel should fast for 30 days during their REPSECTIVE summers (wherever they are on the planet).

And I also want to wish a fulfilling Ramadan for all those fasting during what they believe to be Ramadan.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 02, 2008, 10:52:09 AM
ma3duuda means few; 3adeeda means many. No context would change their meaning.
To those who can read Arabic (cut-and-paste from lisaanul 3arab):

والأَيام المعدودات: أَيامُ التشريق وهي ثلاثة بعد يوم النحر، وأَما الأَيام المعلوماتُ فعشر ذي الحِجة، عُرِّفَتْ تلك بالتقليل لأَنها ثلاثة، وعُرِّفَتْ هذه بالشُّهْرة لأَنها عشرة، وإِنما قُلِّلَ بمعدودة لأَنها نقيض قولك لا تحصى كثرة؛ ومنه وشَرَوْهُ بِثَمَنٍ بَخْسٍ دَراهِمَ معدودة أَي قليلة. قال الزجاج: كل عدد قل أَو كثر فهو معدود، ولكن معدودات أَدل على القِلَّة لأَن كل قليل يجمع بالأَلف والتاء نحو دُرَيْهِماتٍ وحَمَّاماتٍ، وقد يجوز أَن تقع الأَلف والتاء للتكثير.

What I also find interesting in this quote: the phrase about the ten days of Dhul Hijja: [...and this is known by "shuhra" (derived from shahr; my comment) because it is ten (days)]







Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 02, 2008, 02:36:45 PM
Peace sister Nadia,



It is amazing when what the book tells us is verified through empirical observation. I certainly look forward to the full-moon of scorching heat next month. It will come one day after the summer solstice. Being so close to the solstice it should be more spectacular and even easier to make out than the full moon you saw.

Peace and best regards,

Ayman

Salaam
If witnessing is important does that mean a blind person is  exempt from fasting?
 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 02, 2008, 03:01:01 PM
ma3duuda means few; 3adeeda means many. No context would change their meaning.


Peace,

what is your proof from Quran?

Even if M3doodat would refere to any thing that can be counted, it still can not be controlled by a spacific. In other words, it could be 10, 20, 30, 40, 100, 100,000, 1Million.

If you still can count it it is M3doodat.

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 02, 2008, 03:15:15 PM
If witnessing is important does that mean a blind person is  exempt from fasting?
 :peace:

Yes.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Soof on September 02, 2008, 04:02:29 PM
Paix

Progod, if it is counted and not few, what is the amount of days? 30? Why is this so?

Pace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 02, 2008, 05:22:50 PM
Yes.

Salaam Ayman,

I am sorry I would disagree, the God I know would not discriminate against blind or deaf person. It is the rigid thinking of people who see God in their own image. 
Blind person were were best in memorizing the Qur'ana and you believe they can not experience the blessing of fasting are  they less qualified to worship god? 
80:7 And why does it concern you that he does not want to purify?
 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 02, 2008, 06:13:35 PM
Yes.

Ayman, YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND.
Who Gave you the Authority to declare God's Laws :brickwall:
Are you making yourself equal to God?

By the way, I read your artical.
Ayman, your artical is an artical and does not qualify to be a resarch. It lacks supporting data from Quran; it uses Hadiths and stories as its proofs,
Thus, it is worse nothing.

Now, where in the Quran can you claim that Rammadan Means Heat?
Where in the Quran can you claim that Sher means Moon?
In how Many verse did God refers to Moon as "Kamer" and not "Shar"?

The following are some of the hundreds proofs that support the existing of Celender in the Prophet time:

Go ye, then for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. (2) And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage― that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the pagans. If, then ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (3) (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those pagans with whom Ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. (4) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (9-5)

Unless you bring proof from Quran, your theory is worsless to all True Believers.

......But who doth more wrong than one who invents a lie against Allah, to lead astray men without knowledge? For Allah guideth not people who do wrong.(6-144) :!
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 02, 2008, 11:40:58 PM
Peace,

what is your proof from Quran?


Salaam belal

Where in my post did I refer to God or to a rule of His concerning this word? I quoted lisaanul 3arab and I am talking dictionaries and meaning of words. If you want a proof from lisaanul 3arab, then ask for that.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 03, 2008, 08:57:31 AM
Peace Farida,

I am sorry I would disagree, the God I know would not discriminate against blind or deaf person. It is the rigid thinking of people who see God in their own image. 
Blind person were were best in memorizing the Qur'ana and you believe they can not experience the blessing of fasting are  they less qualified to worship god? 
80:7 And why does it concern you that he does not want to purify?
 :peace:

The god clearly said in 2:185 that fasting is for "whoever witnesses from amongst you". So a blind person would be exempt from fasting. Now they can still fast if they wanted to but they don't have to. If you or I don't witness the "shahr" because we were locked in a room or whatever then we are exempt from fasting too. Does this mean that I am discriminating against us? But again we can fast anyway if we wanted to. It is just not compulsory.

In fact, if you didn't witness the scorching full moon last July then you are exempt from fasting. What you and others such as Belal are doing right now is instead fasting a completely random lunar month. You can do this if you want but don't claim that the god ordered you to fast what is in fact a completely random month without any authority from him.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 03, 2008, 09:19:35 AM
Peace Samia,

ma3duuda means few; 3adeeda means many. No context would change their meaning.
To those who can read Arabic (cut-and-paste from lisaanul 3arab):
والأَيام المعدودات: أَيامُ التشريق وهي ثلاثة بعد يوم النحر، وأَما الأَيام المعلوماتُ فعشر ذي الحِجة، عُرِّفَتْ تلك بالتقليل لأَنها ثلاثة، وعُرِّفَتْ هذه بالشُّهْرة لأَنها عشرة، وإِنما قُلِّلَ بمعدودة لأَنها نقيض قولك لا تحصى كثرة؛ ومنه وشَرَوْهُ بِثَمَنٍ بَخْسٍ دَراهِمَ معدودة أَي قليلة. قال الزجاج: كل عدد قل أَو كثر فهو معدود، ولكن معدودات أَدل على القِلَّة لأَن كل قليل يجمع بالأَلف والتاء نحو دُرَيْهِماتٍ وحَمَّاماتٍ، وقد يجوز أَن تقع الأَلف والتاء للتكثير.
What I also find interesting in this quote: the phrase about the ten days of Dhul Hijja: [...and this is known by "shuhra" (derived from shahr; my comment) because it is ten (days)]

12:20 confirms the dictionary meaning since if "ma3doodat" meant "any number" then the passage could have simply said "Dirhams" or simply stop at saying that they "bought him cheaply". The only reason to qualify it is to show that it is a few Dirhams and not just any conjectured counted number, including 30 or 100 Billions (which would still be cheap for a son or daughter). The meaning from the context in the great reading and from dictionaries matches perfectly.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Prissy on September 03, 2008, 10:29:03 AM
Hi ayman,

The god clearly said in 2:185 that fasting is for "whoever witnesses from amongst you". So a blind person would be exempt from fasting.
I think it is not "whoever witnesses" but "whoever was present" (note the verse is in past tense). Even if the English word used is 'witness', it does not necessarily mean "by sight" only. Blind, deaf and dumb are all subjected to fasting and the exception eased on the sickly, travelers and the destitute provided they complete the favor in due course.

Quote
Now they can still fast if they wanted to but they don't have to.
The question begs: where in the Quran is the clear command that prohibits from eating and drinking? The word 'fasting' itself is undefined.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 03, 2008, 10:59:57 AM
Peace Farida,

The god clearly said in 2:185 that fasting is for "whoever witnesses from amongst you". So a blind person would be exempt from fasting. Now they can still fast if they wanted to but they don't have to. If you or I don't witness the "shahr" because we were locked in a room or whatever then we are exempt from fasting too. Does this mean that I am discriminating against us? But again we can fast anyway if we wanted to. It is just not compulsory.

In fact, if you didn't witness the scorching full moon last July then you are exempt from fasting. What you and others such as Belal are doing right now is instead fasting a completely random lunar month. You can do this if you want but don't claim that the god ordered you to fast what is in fact a completely random month without any authority from him.

Peace,

Ayman

Salaam Ayman,

So in your opinion a blind person is not allowed to give witness?

This sounds similar to the case of  ?Blind Justice in The Land Of Pure? where ex-president of Pakistan Zia ul Haqq under ?hudood law?  locked away a blind girl for fornication.
I can only recall from a extract of a novel ?A case of exploding mangoes? about this true case.  I believe death by stoning was passed to punish this girl named Zainab who was actually raped. Since she was required to recognise all five culprits in the court, but her testimony was not acceptable as she was not able to witness the act or the person in who committed this horrible crime.

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: afridi220 on September 03, 2008, 11:10:19 AM
Salaam Ayman,

So in your opinion a blind person is not allowed to give witness?

This sounds similar to the case of  ?Blind Justice in The Land Of Pure? where ex-president of Pakistan Zia ul Haqq under ?hudood law?  locked away a blind girl for fornication.
I can only recall from a extract of a novel ?A case of exploding mangoes? about this true case.  I believe death by stoning was passed to punish this girl named Zainab who was actually raped. Since she was required to recognise all five culprits in the court, but her testimony was not acceptable as she was not able to witness the act or the person in who committed this horrible crime.

 :peace:



Peace Farida

Be aware of another blind person Qazi Husain Ahmed he is still mourning hadood law. :( :)
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 03, 2008, 11:42:23 AM

Peace Farida

Be aware of another blind person Qazi Husain Ahmed he is still mourning hadood law. :( :)

Salaam Afridi

I am not aware of that one, but do send a link or details, even of this case of Zainab I remembered from this novel and I am waiting to see how much rigid interpratation of Quran will result in yet more discrimination.
 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 03, 2008, 11:47:07 AM
Peace Prissy,

I think it is not "whoever witnesses" but "whoever was present" (note the verse is in past tense).

Yes thank you for correcting me. The verb is in the past tense. So it is better translated as "whoever amongst you witnessed". However, I disagree that it simply means "was present". One can be present during an event but not witness it. Also, The passage clearly says "whoever amongst you witnessed". This means that there are some "amongst you" who would witness and others would not. Since all are present, being present is not enough.

Also, please remember that the passage clearly said "whoever witnessed" not "whoever was told by someone who witnessed".

Even if the English word used is 'witness', it does not necessarily mean "by sight" only.

I agree. How one witnesses is dependent on what is witnessed. There is nothing to witness about a "month". For example, there is nothing to witness about December. It is simply the arbitrary period that some people agreed upon would be called December. Similarly, there is nothing to witness about Shaaban. It is simply the arbitrary period that some people agreed upon to be called Shaaban. On the other hand, one can witness cosmic phenomenon with his or her eyes or witness a musical recitation with his or her ears.

Blind, deaf and dumb are all subjected to fasting and the exception eased on the sickly, travelers and the destitute provided they complete the favor in due course.

No, even 100% healthy people are not obligated to fast if they can't witness. Thus, people amongst us here who don't even know what "shahr ramadan" means let alone how to witness it, would be exempted from fasting.

The question begs: where in the Quran is the clear command that prohibits from eating and drinking? The word 'fasting' itself is undefined.

The Arabic word "swm" simply means "abstaining from something". However, 2:187 specifcally tells us that we can have sexual activity and eat and drink only during the night of the fast.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 03, 2008, 12:02:31 PM
Peace Farida,

So in your opinion a blind person is not allowed to give witness?

No. It depends on what they are witnessing. If they are witnessing that they heard a certain sound then of course they can witness. This would be the same situation if you or I were blind folded by a thief while we were asleep and he or she robbed us. We can't witness that we saw him or her but if he spoke then we can witness that we heard his voice. See my response above to Prissy for more info.

This sounds similar to the case of  ?Blind Justice in The Land Of Pure? where ex-president of Pakistan Zia ul Haqq under ?hudood law?  locked away a blind girl for fornication. I can only recall from a extract of a novel ?A case of exploding mangoes? about this true case.  I believe death by stoning was passed to punish this girl named Zainab who was actually raped. Since she was required to recognise all five culprits in the court, but her testimony was not acceptable as she was not able to witness the act or the person in who committed this horrible crime.

I don't know the details of this case but certainly even if she was not raped and fornicated on purpose, she shouldn't be punished in any way. Unlike "zina" (pornography), fornication is a private matter.

It doesn't matter if a blind girl was raped by five men or a blind man was raped by five girls. Either way if he or she can't identify the attackers then she is not a witness because what if he or she identify the wrong people. In this case some other witness must be used such as a chemist who can analyse DNA samples. So again, it depends on what is being witnessed as I mentioned above to Prissy. Back to 2:185, witnessing is not just by sight but the person THEMSELVES must witness and not be told by someone who was told by some other guy, etc. This is why the passage says "whoever amongst you witnessed". Implied in this is that some amongst you would not witness this cosmic phenomenon but fasting is only obligated on those who did.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 03, 2008, 12:14:19 PM
Salaam Ayman, all

Does the verse say (only during the night)?
If we drink and eat during the night, it means that we will have to sleep during the day. Doesn't this contradict the definiton of night and day in the qur'aan vis-vis living and sleeping (78:11 and other verses)?

Question 2: What is meant in the verse (2:184) by: "and for those who can afford it to feed a poor"?

Question 3: 2:185 "...and whoever is ill or travelling, then a count of other days. God intends for you ease and He dos not want to make things difficult for you, and to complete the count..." Which count to complete?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 03, 2008, 01:02:34 PM
Peace Farida,

No. It depends on what they are witnessing. If they are witnessing that they heard a certain sound then of course they can witness. This would be the same situation if you or I were blind folded by a thief while we were asleep and he or she robbed us. We can't witness that we saw him or her but if he spoke then we can witness that we heard his voice. See my response above to Prissy for more info.

I don't know the details of this case but certainly even if she was not raped and fornicated on purpose, she shouldn't be punished in any way. Unlike "zina" (pornography), fornication is a private matter.

It doesn't matter if a blind girl was raped by five men or a blind man was raped by five girls. Either way if he or she can't identify the attackers then she is not a witness because what if he or she identify the wrong people. In this case some other witness must be used such as a chemist who can analyse DNA samples. So again, it depends on what is being witnessed as I mentioned above to Prissy. Back to 2:185, witnessing is not just by sight but the person THEMSELVES must witness and not be told by someone who was told by some other guy, etc. This is why the passage says "whoever amongst you witnessed". Implied in this is that some amongst you would not witness this cosmic phenomenon but fasting is only obligated on those who did.

Peace,

Ayman

Salaam Ayman

I myself have no details of Zainab's case but I think she knew the attackers and, as you know a blind person is compensated by having other senses to a higher standard than a normal person. The issue was not that she did not know the attackers but that,  because she was blind, her evidence was not acceptable so even DNA testing would not be acceptable to those who apply a rigid interpretation of the Qur'an, just as you do not accept an online sighting of the moon.

 :peace:

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 03, 2008, 01:57:02 PM
Soof Pax,

For fasting it is 30 and for pilgriamge it is 90. But one need only be present for 3 or 2 if rushed.

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 03, 2008, 02:08:06 PM
Peace Samia,

Thank you for your questions.

Does the verse say (only during the night)?
If we drink and eat during the night, it means that we will have to sleep during the day. Doesn't this contradict the definiton of night and day in the qur'aan vis-vis living and sleeping (78:11 and other verses)?

Whether at day or night if one is hungry and thirsty then not eating and drinking contradicts one's instincts. The same goes for not speaking to anyone for days since we are communicative by nature. So whatever abstinance mentioned in the great reading it is certainly an exception that goes against what one would normally do.

2:187 says to eat and drink until dawn and then to complete the fast until the night. Had it said to eat and drink until night and then to complete the fast until the dawn then we would be fasting at night.

If fasting is not about sexual contact and eating and drinking then what is the point of mentioning those things in 2:187?

Question 2: What is meant in the verse (2:184) by: "and for those who can afford it to feed a poor"?

But 2:184 doesn't say "those who can afford it". It says "those who can do it with difficulty". So even if you can abstain from food and drink but with difficulty, you are OK to feed the poor instead.

Question 3: 2:185 "...and whoever is ill or travelling, then a count of other days. God intends for you ease and He dos not want to make things difficult for you, and to complete the count..." Which count to complete?

The count to complete is the count of a few days talked about immediately before in 2:184. A few is 3-10 so completion of a few is reaching the maximum of 10.

I am of course open to better interpretations, if you would like to share them.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Prissy on September 03, 2008, 02:12:45 PM
Brother ayman, in order for Muhammad to address what was revealed to him, people must have gathered/present to witness his call. The question of the blind, deaf and dumb to not (or cannot) "witness" does not arise (perhaps the word witness as translated seems either incorrect or misunderstood). The leverage of fasting set upon the sickly, travelers and the destitite is pretty much conditioned as per the Quran.

Samia makes a good first point in her previous post. Perhaps verse 2:187 is grossly misunderstood. Doesn't the worse state that ".....until the white thread is distinct from the black thread, then complete the fast until 'fajar' (dawn)"? It then further goes on to state that "....do not approach your wives at night whilst (or IF) one decides/retreats to worship in mosques"? What's the point of eating and drinking all night long and not during daytime? Besides, was the quran revealed/addressed at night or during the day?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 03, 2008, 02:33:45 PM
Peace Farida,

I myself have no details of Zainab's case but I think she knew the attackers and, as you know a blind person is compensated by having other senses to a higher standard than a normal person. The issue was not that she did not know the attackers but that,  because she was blind, her evidence was not acceptable so even DNA testing would not be acceptable to those who apply a rigid interpretation of the Qur'an, just as you do not accept an online sighting of the moon.
 :peace:

DNA is acceptable as evidence as witnessed by an expert on DNA. The blind girl didn't witness the DNA of the attackers so your analogy is irrelevant. If she knew her attackers and can identify them based on sound then this is another matter and her testimony based on sound can be accepted although any defense attorney would probably cast doubt on it.

As for an online sighting of the scorching full moon, look at my avatar on the left side of your screen.

If you are talking about the image that Belal posted and claimed to be the sighting of the new moon, he was lying and it was actually a doctored image.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 03, 2008, 02:47:49 PM
Peace Farida,

DNA is acceptable as evidence as witnessed by an expert on DNA. The blind girl didn't witness the DNA of the attackers so your analogy is irrelevant. If she knew her attackers and can identify them based on sound then this is another matter and her testimony based on sound can be accepted although any defense attorney would probably cast doubt on it.

As for an online sighting of the scorching full moon, look at my avatar on the left side of your screen.



Peace,

Ayman

Salaam Ayman,

I am talking about those who apply the verses of the Qur'an rigidly, (in the case of Ramadan you do it), and for them DNA does not matter nor that the girl could identify the culprits. This case made international headlines and left a terrible impression of Islam on the wider world so I am by no means trying to outdo you, but I am discussing what we read and what we should see as the essence of the message which you do on many occasions.

Quote
If you are talking about the image that Belal posted and claimed to be the sighting of the new moon, he was lying and it was actually a doctored image.

No I am talking about the moonsighting site I followed:http://www.moonsighting.com/

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 03, 2008, 02:52:33 PM
Peace Prissy,

Brother ayman, in order for Muhammad to address what was revealed to him, people must have gathered/present to witness his call. The question of the blind, deaf and dumb to not (or cannot) "witness" does not arise (perhaps the word witness as translated seems either incorrect or misunderstood). The leverage of fasting set upon the sickly, travelers and the destitite is pretty much conditioned as per the Quran.

It depends on what is being witnessed. If your talking to a blind person then they can witness. If you are talking to a deaf person then they can witness by reading your lips. If your or my eyes are covered and our ears are plugged then you and I cannot witness. So in this case both the blind and deaf persons can witness while you and I can't (although we are present). As I asked you and you didn't answer, what is the point of saying "whoever amongst you"? Since in the context of time everyone is always "present" anyway then why not just command to abstain and that is it?

Samia makes a good first point in her previous post. Perhaps verse 2:187 is grossly misunderstood. Doesn't the worse state that ".....until the white thread is distinct from the black thread, then complete the fast until 'fajar' (dawn)"? It then further goes on to state that "....do not approach your wives at night whilst (or IF) one decides/retreats to worship in mosques"? What's the point of eating and drinking all night long and not during daytime? Besides, was the quran revealed/addressed at night or during the day?

No it doesn't say ".....until the white thread is distinct from the black thread, then complete the fast until 'fajar' (dawn)". It says ".....until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of 'fajar' (dawn), then complete the fast until 'layl' (night)". So you objection is not valid.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 03, 2008, 03:08:54 PM

If you are talking about the image that Belal posted and claimed to be the sighting of the new moon, he was lying and it was actually a doctored image.


(http://www.birding.in/images/Birds/golden_eagle.jpg)


http://aa.usno.navy.mil/idltemp/current_moon.php

Instead of answering my Questions, you are making more new lies.

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 03, 2008, 03:14:18 PM
Peace Farida,

I am talking about those who apply the verses of the Qur'an rigidly, (in the case of Ramadan you do it), and for them DNA does not matter nor that the girl could identify the culprits. This case made international headlines and left a terrible impression of Islam on the wider world so I am by no means trying to outdo you, but I am discussing what we read and what we should see as the essence of the message which you do on many occasions.

Farida, do you have faith in the great reading? If so, do you really think that those who commit such terrible injustices are applying the great reading rigidly?

I would say quite the opposite. They are not applying the truth from our lord in the great reading rigidly. They don't even understand what the word "islam" means and they take it as a meaningless label that we are born with or achieved by mechanically uttering some words. You are not helping them and in fact you are contributing to the very problems that you are criticizing by not translating the language-independent universal concept of "islam" which was known even before Arabic was invented. If you want change, then let's start with ourselves first.

No I am talking about the moonsighting site I followed:http://www.moonsighting.com/

I am afraid you are following another doctored image :)

Quote
We, at Moonsighting.com, calculate where the crescent moon sighting is possible for every lunar month. Visibility of the New Crescent Moon is calculated using the criteria, developed after decades of research by Khalid Shaukat, of Moonsighting Committee Worldwide (MCW).

Hmm... I don't remember 2:185 saying anything about witnessing a doctored image, a committee, or even an image doctored by a committee.

Come on everyone, help Farida out. How hard can this be? We are in the digital age where everyone and their 4 year old son or daughter has a digital camera or a camera phone and yet no one of the billion so-called Muslims can witness the new moon and post a real image????????????!

How sad. But this is what the god does to even a billion people who ignore his clear command in 2:185.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 03, 2008, 03:17:16 PM
Peace Prissy,

what is the point of saying "whoever amongst you"? Since in the context of time everyone is always "present" anyway then why not just command to abstain and that is it?

Ayman

Salaam Ayman

Sorry the question was directed at Prissy, but  maybe it meant those who live in places near the North and South pole where, during a summer month, the sun never sets, so dawn does not happen and thus do not experience day and night as the rest of the world. Often its been debated in those parts of the world how they are supposed to fast in the absence of a clear division of day and night.
Even in countries like the Uk and Sweden duirng summer months there is just twilight (no real darkness) and then the sun rises. I will be so happy if I am exempted from fasting in those months as days are really long and, in a few years Ramadan will fall in mid summer. :wow

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 03, 2008, 03:36:50 PM
Peace Farida,

Farida, do you have faith in the great reading? If so, do you really think that those who commit such terrible injustices are applying the great reading rigidly?

Peace,

Ayman

Of course they are not following the Quran but if we insist on literal meanings of the Arabic than according to some a deaf person would not be able to divorce his wife as he can not utter world talaq.


Quote
I am afraid you are following another doctored image

I was not following any image just the calculation of moon cycle by new techonology/websites.

Quote
Hmm... I don't remember 2:185 saying anything about witnessing a doctored image, a committee, or even an image doctored by a committee.

Come on everyone, help Farida out. How hard can this be? We are in the digital age where everyone and their 4 year old son or daughter has a digital camera or a camera phone and yet no one of the billion so-called Muslims can witness the new moon and post a real image????????????!

How sad. But this is what the god does to even a billion people who ignore his clear command in 2:185.


Does the great reading mention an image by the digital camera or do we have a tug of war here who wins the arguments??????

I have posted above my understanding of those "who witness/whoever amongst you" in an earlier post and would welcome your comments.

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 03, 2008, 03:49:06 PM
But 2:184 doesn't say "those who can afford it". It says "those who can do it with difficulty". So even if you can abstain from food and drink but with difficulty, you are OK to feed the poor instead.

Salaam Ayman
Thanks for your response

Why is it (with difficulty)? What's the meaning of (Taaqa: طاقة,  the verbal noun of yuteeq) in these verses:
2:249: "They say: We have no power this day against Goliath". In other words, we cannot afford fighting Goliath, not we cannot afford with difficulty fighting Goliath;
2:286: "Our lord, ....and do not put upon us a burden greater than we have strength to bear..." in other words, greater than we are able to, than we can afford.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 03, 2008, 03:50:45 PM
Peace Farida,

Sorry the question was directed at Prissy, but  maybe it meant those who live in places near the North and South pole where, during a summer month, the sun never sets, so dawn does not happen and thus do not experience day and night as the rest of the world. Often its been debated in those parts of the world how they are supposed to fast in the absence of a clear division of day and night.
Even in countries like the Uk and Sweden duirng summer months there is just twilight (no real darkness) and then the sun rises. I will be so happy if I am exempted from fasting in those months as days are really long and, in a few years Ramadan will fall in mid summer. :wow

Those who find hardship in fasting regardless of the reason can feed a poor person according to 2:185.

The question was about Prissy saying that "shahad" doesn't mean "witness" but simply means being "pesent". Your answer doesn't address the question since people in Sweden or anywhere on earth are also "present".

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 03, 2008, 03:55:44 PM
Peace Every one'


The word "Shahed" means Testify, according to the Quran;

An Example of Shahada or Shada in Quran:

شَهِدَ ٱللَّهُ أَنَّهُ ۥ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَٱلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةُ وَأُوْلُواْ ٱلۡعِلۡمِ قَآٮِٕمَۢا بِٱلۡقِسۡطِۚ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ ٱلۡعَزِيزُ ٱلۡحَڪِيمُ (١٨)

Allah Testifies (Shahed) that there is no god but He, and angels and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice: There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise. (3-18)

I testify (Ashadu) that there is No God But Allah, without Seeing Him.


قُلۡ أَىُّ شَىۡءٍ أَكۡبَرُ شَہَـٰدَةً۬‌ۖ قُلِ ٱللَّهُ‌ۖ شَہِيدُۢ بَيۡنِى وَبَيۡنَكُمۡ‌ۚ وَأُوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هَـٰذَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِۦ وَمَنۢ بَلَغَ‌ۚ أَٮِٕنَّكُمۡ لَتَشۡہَدُونَ أَنَّ مَعَ ٱللَّهِ ءَالِهَةً أُخۡرَىٰ‌ۚ قُل لَّآ أَشۡہَدُ‌ۚ قُلۡ إِنَّمَا هُوَ إِلَـٰهٌ۬ وَٲحِدٌ۬ وَإِنَّنِى بَرِىٓءٌ۬ مِّمَّا تُشۡرِكُونَ (١٩)

Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "Allah is Witness between me and you: this Qur'an hath been revealed to me by inspiration That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there are other gods?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the One God and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him. (6-19)


Now Why Ayman insisting that ones must SEE The MOON if they Want To Fast.
According to God, Shahad means testify or witness by true knowledge.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 03, 2008, 04:06:53 PM
Peace Samia,

Why is it (with difficulty)? What's the meaning of (Taaqa: طاقة,  the verbal noun of yuteeq) in these verses:
2:249: "They say: We have no power this day against Goliath". In other words, we cannot afford fighting Goliath, not we cannot afford with difficulty fighting Goliath;

It means we can't do it even with difficulty. If they say they can't do it with ease then they are admitting to be lazy and cowards. But if they say they can't do it with difficulty then "dificulty" is their excuse. I hope you see the difference.

2:286: "Our lord, ....and do not put upon us a burden greater than we have strength to bear..." in other words, greater than we are able to, than we can afford.

Exactly. It is not "do not burden us with what we can't carry easily" (otherwise we are lazy) it is "do not burden us with what we can't carry even with great difficulty".

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

When you say to someone in Arabic "Ana tayiq al7arr" then what does this mean? Does it mean that you can easily take the heat or you can take it with difficulty?

Also, when you say to someone in Arabic "Ana la atiq al7arr" then what does this mean? Does it mean that you can't take the heat even though it is easy on you or you can't take it even with great difficulty?

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 03, 2008, 04:09:51 PM
Salaam Belal

I also thought of the meaning "to testify", but descarded it immediately after scanning this verb in the qur'aan and how it is used.. The verb "yashhadu" meaning "to testify" does not take a direct object. You cannot find in the qur'aan "yashhadu something" meaning  to testify. It's to testify THAT or testify ON/UPON something/someone (yashhadu unna/inna or yashhadu 3ala), or just yashhadu without being followed directly by the object.

In the case this verb is followed directly by the object (as the case of the verse we are discussing), then it means to witness.
I hope others try to search this verb in the qur'aan in case I missed something.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 03, 2008, 04:10:37 PM
Peace Farida,

Those who find hardship in fasting regardless of the reason can feed a poor person according to 2:185.
Peace,

Ayman

This is the blessing of our Lord, but I was talking about excemption from fasting.

Quote
The question was about Prissy saying that "shahad" doesn't mean "witness" but simply means being "pesent". Your answer doesn't address the question since people in Sweden or anywhere on earth are also "present".

Sorry I should have explained I was reffering to "whoever amongst you" witness the clear division of day and night" and even if people in Sweden are present they do not ger to witness night and dark night most summer months.

Brother Bilal in his last post has given  "An Example of Shahada or Shada in Quran" and I would now follow your response to that.

Thanks for addressing my questions.

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 03, 2008, 04:18:49 PM
Salaam Belal

I also thought of the meaning "to testify", but descarded it immediately after scanning this verb in the qur'aan and how it is used.. The verb "yashhadu" meaning "to testify" does not take a direct object. You cannot find in the qur'aan "yashhadu something" meaning  to testify. It's to testify THAT or testify ON/UPON something/someone (yashhadu unna/inna or yashhadu 3ala), or just yashhadu without being followed directly by the object.

In the case this verb is followed directly by the object (as the case of the verse we are discussing), then it means to witness.
I hope others try to search this verb in the qur'aan in case I missed something.

Do You Witness that Allah Exist?
And if Yes, is your testimony based on your seeing of Allah or something else?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 03, 2008, 04:24:26 PM
Peace Farida,

Of course they are not following the Quran but if we insist on literal meanings of the Arabic than according to some a deaf person would not be able to divorce his wife as he can not utter world talaq.

Where does it say in the great reading that divorce is about uttering a word? I think that you are confusing what you learned from traditions with what is in the great reading. No wonder you don't want to follow the great reading rigidly.

I was not following any image just the calculation of moon cycle by new techonology/websites.

You clearly said you followed the "moonsighting" site. I am afraid that you are following a grossly and misleadingly titled website. If they can't even be truthful about the simple matter of the title of the site then I doubt they are truthful about anything.

Does the great reading mention an image by the digital camera or do we have a tug of war here who wins the arguments??????

But you can't even present a digital image by a digital camera. What you showed is an artificial doctored image. As I said, it is pathetic that 1 billion so-called Muslims in this information age can't even post a real image of the actual new moon from last Sunday or Saturday.

I have posted above my understanding of those "who witness/whoever amongst you" in an earlier post and would welcome your comments.
 :peace:

Thank you and I answered.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 03, 2008, 04:33:13 PM
Do You Witness that Allah Exist?
And if Yes, is your testimony based on your seeing of Allah or something else?

That's exactly what I am saying:
The verb here means testify: ashhadu alla (an laa: that there's no) God but God. God here is not a direct object. This cannot be to witness. I do not say (ashhadu allah)
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 03, 2008, 04:49:42 PM
Peace Farida,

Where does it say in the great reading that divorce is about uttering a word? I think that you are confusing what you learned from traditions with what is in the great reading. No wonder you don't want to follow the great reading rigidly.

You clearly said you followed the "moonsighting" site. I am afraid that you are following a grossly and misleadingly titled website. If they can't even be truthful about the simple matter of the title of the site then I doubt they are truthful about anything.


Salaam  Ayman,

No I am not confused I was talking of the jewish "gett" style divorce by this free minder who wrote this:

 http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596857.0
 Re: Divorce: State versus Islam
? Reply #24 on: August 13, 2008, 04:23:27 AM ? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salaam dotty. As I said previously there is no mention of marriage or divorce in the Quran. Asking me for the procedure for divorce is a waste of your time.

However, if you are asking me to outline the procedure for talaq in the Quran, I can give you a skeleton outline. This is not a comprehensive answer because every single talaq is different, with crossover issues, relating in large part to the discretionary decisions of the zawj, and their actions. This outline applies to two normal people and their nikah. May Allah forgive me if I make an error.

The first stage in talaq is for either zawj to request an arbitration, wherein either party appoints their chosen arbitrator from amongst their people, briefs the arbitrator on the issues, then the arbitrators meet and go through the issues and come to a decision as to the issues. The parties are advised to comply with the decision of the arbitrators. There must be a reasonable time frame in the execution of the arbitration so as to allow enough time for both parties to discharge their duties to Allah. The arbitration must be complete as the first step before a talaq can move to the second stage.

The second stage is the pronouncement of talaq by the husband verbally and the requirement that the parties begin to come to a decision as to the issues of mahr and maintenance. According to Allah these issues are to be decided by the parties themselves. There is a mandatory waiting period here again prescribed by Allah. The first pronouncement of talaq and the waiting period must be complete before moving on to the third stage.

The third stage is the second pronouncement of talaq by the husband verbally and the requirement that the parties abide by another mandatory waiting period. At the end of the second waiting period comes the fourth and final stage.

The fourth stage is the separation of the zawj and the completion of the requirements of the talaq and the wife is free to leave the husband.

This is a skeleton outline of the process, when going through this process a person must be careful that all the requirements are met. This outline is based on verses of the Quran.

Allah is the lawgiver.


Quote
As I said, it is pathetic that 1 billion so-called Muslims in this information age can't even post a real image of the actual new moon from last Sunday or Saturday.

Thank you and I answered.

Peace,

Ayman

 I am sorry; for you the Muslim world may include just the rich, but there are those who do not own a digital camera.

Yes the state of  1 billion so-called Muslims is pathetic and there's no chance that it will improve in the near future. :'(
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 03, 2008, 05:03:14 PM
Peace Farida,

This is the blessing of our Lord, but I was talking about excemption from fasting.

As you saw, this is the exemption due to hardship of any sort, including too long days. It has nothing to do with witnessing anything.

Sorry I should have explained I was reffering to "whoever amongst you" witness the clear division of day and night" and even if people in Sweden are present they do not ger to witness night and dark night most summer months.

But there is no reference to "day and night". The passage clearly says whoever witnesses the "shahr" (according to me the well known and easily witnessed by everyone "scorching full-moon" and according to you some vague and un-witnessable "month" with a meaningless name that doesn't portray reality).

Brother Bilal in his last post has given  "An Example of Shahada or Shada in Quran" and I would now follow your response to that.

I already explained previously how witnessing something is dependent on what it is we are witnessing. There are bigger issues than wasting time repeating myself for someone who has demonstrated to me that he is only looking in the great reading for excuses to justify following traditions.

The word "shahada" simply means "witness". Therefore, it is not surprising that you can't witness "the god" with any senses or even your mind. You can only witness that there is no god except the god. In other words, you can witness that there is only one god. The god chooses words very carefully. The god's words are universal so they are not dependent on some committee coming up with a doctored image of the new moon. They were as true hundreds of years ago as they are now and in the future. You only cause hardship on yourself by ignoring what 2:185 is saying and the clear meaning of a key word such as "ramadan".

By the way, you didn't answer my question. Do you have faith in the great reading?

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 03, 2008, 05:12:09 PM
That's exactly what I am saying:
The verb here means testify: ashhadu alla (an laa: that there's no) God but God. God here is not a direct object. This cannot be to witness. I do not say (ashhadu allah)

 لِّيَشۡهَدُواْ مَنَـٰفِعَ لَهُمۡ وَيَذۡڪُرُواْ ٱسۡمَ ٱللَّهِ فِىٓ أَيَّامٍ۬ مَّعۡلُومَـٰتٍ عَلَىٰ مَا رَزَقَهُم مِّنۢ بَهِيمَةِ ٱلۡأَنۡعَـٰمِ‌ۖ فَكُلُواْ مِنۡہَا وَأَطۡعِمُواْ ٱلۡبَآٮِٕسَ ٱلۡفَقِيرَ (٢٨)

"That they may witness the benefits for them, and celebrate the name of Allah, through the Days appointed over the cattle which He has provided for them: then eat ye thereof and feed the distressed ones in want. (22-28)

What do you witness in Hajj?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 03, 2008, 05:24:53 PM
Peace Farida,

No I am not confused I was talking of the jewish "gett" style divorce by this free minder who wrote this:

I am really surprised and dissapointed. I thought that you were more intelligent and critical minded than to accept such nonsense and then claim that it is due to following the great reading "too rigidly".

Quote
...This outline is based on verses of the Quran.

Not.

I am sorry; for you the Muslim world may include just the rich, but there are those who do not own a digital camera.

This has nothing to do with rich or poor. It has to do with the so-called Muslim world relying on a Mullah or a committee or their government to witness for them. They fail to see the universal spirit of 2:185. It has to do with ignorance versus enlightment. Indeed, the night of the measure is better than a thousand full-moons.

Yes the state of  1 billion so-called Muslims is pathetic and there's no chance that it will improve in the near future. :'(

You can help them by translating the word "muslim" and show them that it is not a meaningless title that they were born with instead of contributing to the problem by propagating this myth.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 03, 2008, 05:38:19 PM


 وَلَا تَقۡفُ مَا لَيۡسَ لَكَ بِهِۦ عِلۡمٌ‌ۚ إِنَّ ٱلسَّمۡعَ وَٱلۡبَصَرَ وَٱلۡفُؤَادَ كُلُّ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ كَانَ عَنۡهُ مَسۡـُٔولاً۬ (٣٦)
And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing  or of feeling will be enquired into. (17-36)
Not only the seeing, but the hearing and the reasoning of humans are equal in front of God.

رُّسُلِهِۦ‌ۚ وَقَالُواْ سَمِعۡنَا وَأَطَعۡنَا‌ۖ غُفۡرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيۡكَ ٱلۡمَصِيرُ (٢٨٥)
...." And they say: "We hear and we obey; (We seek) Thy forgiveness, Our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys." (2-285)

Even here we can witness that the Seeing is not as important as the Hearing :!

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 03, 2008, 05:45:34 PM
Peace Farida,

I am really surprised and dissapointed. I thought that you were more intelligent and critical minded than to accept such nonsense and then claim that it is due to following the great reading "too rigidly".

Not.


Ayman

Salaam again

Thank you for your faith in my intelligence and there is no need to feel disappointed with me as  I am the one who has fiercely protested about this ?get? version of divorce.

In fact I expected you and other learned people on this forum to confront this sort of interpretation but you all ignored it as if he was right.   :-\


Quote
This has nothing to do with rich or poor. It has to do with the so-called Muslim world relying on a Mullah or a committee or their government to witness for them. They fail to see the universal spirit of 2:185. It has to do with ignorance versus enlightment. Indeed, the night of the measure is better than a thousand full-moons.

You can help them by translating the word "muslim" and show them that it is not a meaningless title that they were born with instead of contributing to the problem by propagating this myth.

Peace,

I can only speak for myself that |I never relied on Mullah nor ever sent my children to learn from them.
As for teaching others well I am still learning so how can a student become a teacher?

I am off to bed or I would miss my early morning meal before dawn.
 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 03, 2008, 11:42:43 PM
لِّيَشۡهَدُواْ مَنَـٰفِعَ لَهُمۡ وَيَذۡڪُرُواْ ٱسۡمَ ٱللَّهِ فِىٓ أَيَّامٍ۬ مَّعۡلُومَـٰتٍ عَلَىٰ مَا رَزَقَهُم مِّنۢ بَهِيمَةِ ٱلۡأَنۡعَـٰمِ‌ۖ فَكُلُواْ مِنۡہَا وَأَطۡعِمُواْ ٱلۡبَآٮِٕسَ ٱلۡفَقِيرَ (٢٨)

"That they may witness the benefits for them, and celebrate the name of Allah, through the Days appointed over the cattle which He has provided for them: then eat ye thereof and feed the distressed ones in want. (22-28)

What do you witness in Hajj?

The benefits !!  :confused:
You see that the verb here means "witness" and not testify, since it's followed by a direct object.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: afridi220 on September 04, 2008, 06:10:00 AM
Salaam Afridi

I am not aware of that one, but do send a link or details, even of this case of Zainab I remembered from this novel and I am waiting to see how much rigid interpratation of Quran will result in yet more discrimination.
 :peace:

Salaam farida

here is the link you can read the story of zainab and her hubi imamm -e- masjid it is horraible story only bearded and turban Mullahs the descended of Abu Jahel can .....

http://www.bridgew.edu/soas/jiws/Nov05V2/Imran.pdf

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 04, 2008, 07:51:37 AM
Peace,

Samia, you said that taaqatun is the verbal noun of yuteequ/ataaqa (form 4). I would urge you to look that up again. The verbal noun of ataaqa would be Itaaqatun, and not just taaqatun. Taaqatun is the verbal noun of the first form yateequ/taaqa. It would seem that the first form means to be able or to be in a position to do something (may be some more meanings). Form 4 means to suffer through something or to be able to suffer through it. So they both can apply ability, but form 4 implies ability with effort and toll, and form 1 just implies ability, like qadira and astitaa3. Hope i helped to clarifiy.

Godbless,
Anwar
 
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 04, 2008, 12:02:28 PM
Peace,

Samia, you said that taaqatun is the verbal noun of yuteequ/ataaqa (form 4). I would urge you to look that up again. The verbal noun of ataaqa would be Itaaqatun, and not just taaqatun. Taaqatun is the verbal noun of the first form yateequ/taaqa. It would seem that the first form means to be able or to be in a position to do something (may be some more meanings). Form 4 means to suffer through something or to be able to suffer through it. So they both can apply ability, but form 4 implies ability with effort and toll, and form 1 just implies ability, like qadira and astitaa3. Hope i helped to clarifiy.

Godbless,
Anwar
 

Salaam Anwar

Taaqa is a noun that can be used as verbal noun according to classical dictionaries:

 قال أَبو منصور: يقال طاقَ يَطُوق طَوْقاً وأَطاقَ يُطيقُ إِطاقةً وطاقةً، كما يقال طاعَ يَطُوع طَوْعاً وأَطاعَ يُطيع إِطاعةً وطاعةً.


 The verbal noun is "iTaaqa" which means the ability to do something (lisaanul 3arab; al-Sahaah fil-Lugha; al-Qaamuuaul MuheeT).
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 04, 2008, 01:08:10 PM
Salaam farida

here is the link you can read the story of zainab and her hubi imamm -e- masjid it is horraible story only bearded and turban Mullahs the descended of Abu Jahel can .....

http://www.bridgew.edu/soas/jiws/Nov05V2/Imran.pdf

Peace

Salaam
Thank you Afridi for this link
 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Al Araf on September 04, 2008, 01:32:00 PM
Salam belalhammad. Having examined many calendars, including native american calendars, then reading the suras of the Quran I wish to offer the following concepts as a way out of the apparent confusion.

The confusion is evident when a debate takes place over ramadan being the hottest month of the year, then the comparison being made between the hottest month in Saudi Arabia in the northern hemisphere, versus the hottest month in South Africa in the southern hemisphere. Obviously the hottest month in the northern hemisphere is six months away from the hottest month in the southern hemisphere.

Allah made the earth and the seasons and the hemispheres, and in such a way, that the hottest month does not fall at the same time on all parts of the earth. Allah in his wisdom established the hottest month ramadan as the month of fasting.

The presumption that exists in the mind of some people, that ramadan must occur at the same time all over the world, is a presumtion that has no basis in any authority from the Quran. I cannot find any ayat of the Quran that says "you must establish ramadan in the same month all throughout the earth"

Because Allah establishes truth and rejects falsehood, we must establish the truth as well. In order to establish the truth, ramadan must be the hottest month of the year in the location at which the momin resides. I am aware that this precludes naming a particular month of the year as ramadan. What this means in practice is there may be a third month in Saudi Arabia that is ramadan for Saudis, and a ninth month in South Africa that is ramadan for South Africans.

I am sure that readers will react in confusion. However, I have faith in Allah, that in what Allah establishes is the truth, therefore, to establish the same for myself is to bring me closer to the truth. If readers can grasp this concept, that establishing the truth of Allah is more important than slavishly following false ideas, I believe this will be valuable to them as a tool for better comprehension of the Quran.

Allah reveals the Quran in stages.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 04, 2008, 02:52:16 PM

The confusion is evident when a debate takes place over ramadan being the hottest month of the year,

Peace'
Why does "Rammadan" word means "Hot", when God uses other words for Hot?

LET GOD TELL US:
Extreme and intense Heat is:

 Part of 9-81 وَقَالُواْ لَا تَنفِرُواْ فِى ٱلۡحَرِّ‌ۗ قُلۡ نَارُ جَهَنَّمَ أَشَدُّ حَرًّ۬ا‌ۚ لَّوۡ كَانُواْ يَفۡقَهُونَ (٨١)

Those who were left behind rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight with their goods and their persons, in the Cause of Allah: they said "Go not forth in the heat
. Say "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat
." If only they could understand! (9-81)

Why God did not use the Word Ramadan Instead of "Har" or "Al-Har"?

وَلَا ٱلظِّلُّ وَلَا ٱلۡحَرُورُ (٢١)
Nor are the (chilly) shade and the extreme heat of the sun: (35-21)

Why again God ignored the use of Rammadan instead of "Harror" 


 وَٱللَّهُ جَعَلَ لَكُم مِّمَّا خَلَقَ ظِلَـٰلاً۬ وَجَعَلَ لَكُم مِّنَ ٱلۡجِبَالِ أَڪۡنَـٰنً۬ا وَجَعَلَ لَكُمۡ سَرَٲبِيلَ تَقِيڪُمُ ٱلۡحَرَّ وَسَرَٲبِيلَ تَقِيكُم بَأۡسَڪُمۡ‌ۚ كَذَٲلِكَ يُتِمُّ نِعۡمَتَهُ ۥ عَلَيۡڪُمۡ لَعَلَّكُمۡ تُسۡلِمُونَ (٨١)

It is Allah who made out of the things He created, some things to give you shade; of the hills He made some for your shelter; He made you garments to protect you from heat
, and coats of mail to protect you from your (mutual) violence. Thus does He complete his favours on you, that ye may surrender to His will (in Islam). (16-81)

Heat is "Har" and never the Word Rammadan.

 فَأَنذَرۡتُكُمۡ نَارً۬ا تَلَظَّىٰ
 (١٤)
Therefore do I warn you of a Fire blazing fiercely; (92-14)


كَلَّآ‌ۖ إِنَّہَا لَظَىٰ (١٥)
By no means! For it would be the blazing Heat of Hell!― (70-15)


NOW, Where is Your and Ayman and every body who claim Rammadan to mean Heat, proof FROM QURAN. OTHERWISE, you are Misleading People From the TRue Meaning of Quranic Words.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 04, 2008, 02:57:31 PM
The benefits !!  :confused:
You see that the verb here means "witness" and not testify, since it's followed by a direct object.


Peace

OK,
What ones can witness in Hajj?

Can a Blind Still witness the Hajj (the Benefits), as he can Witness Rammadan?

Thus, witnessing can be by Hearing or Seeing or Both.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 04, 2008, 03:10:29 PM
Peace all,

From Chapter 9:

81.   Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God?s messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: ?Do not mobilize in the heat.? Say: ?The fire of Hell is far hotter,? if they could only understand.
82.   Let them laugh a little, and cry a lot, a recompense for what they had earned.
83.   If God returns you to a group of them, and they ask your permission to come with you, then say: ?You will not come with me ever; nor will you fight any enemy with me. You had accepted staying behind the first time, so stay with those who remain behind.?
84.   And do not commune over any of them who have died, nor stand at their grave. They have rejected God and His messenger and died while they were wicked.
85.   And do not be impressed by their wealth and their children; God only wishes to punish them with it in this world, and so their souls will be taken to death while they are rejecters.
86.   And when a chapter is sent down: ?That you shall believe in God and strive with His messenger,? those with wealth and influence ask your permission and they say: ?Let us be with those who remain behind.?
87.   They were content to stay with those who remained behind, and it was stamped on their hearts, for they do not comprehend.

Chapter 2:

2:185 A scorching full moon is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever amongst you witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The god wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify the god for what he guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.

It is very clear but unfortunately some people can't read a few lines down and they can only follow their forefathers like sheep.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 04, 2008, 03:28:42 PM
Peace all,

From Chapter 9:

81.   Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God?s messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: ?Do not mobilize in the heat.? Say: ?The fire of Hell is far hotter,? if they could only understand.

Did God used the Word Rammadan to refer to the word Heat? Or did he used "Har"?


82.   Let them laugh a little, and cry a lot, a recompense for what they had earned.
83.   If God returns you to a group of them, and they ask your permission to come with you, then say: ?You will not come with me ever; nor will you fight any enemy with me. You had accepted staying behind the first time, so stay with those who remain behind.?
84.   And do not commune over any of them who have died, nor stand at their grave. They have rejected God and His messenger and died while they were wicked.
85.   And do not be impressed by their wealth and their children; God only wishes to punish them with it in this world, and so their souls will be taken to death while they are rejecters.
86.   And when a chapter is sent down: ?That you shall believe in God and strive with His messenger,? those with wealth and influence ask your permission and they say: ?Let us be with those who remain behind.?
87.   They were content to stay with those who remained behind, and it was stamped on their hearts, for they do not comprehend.

Chapter 2:

2:185 A scorching full moon is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever amongst you witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The god wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify the god for what he guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.

It is very clear but unfortunately some people can't read a few lines down and they can only follow their forefathers like sheep.

Peace,

Ayman

 ::)    :confused:

OK...What do you want to prove?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 04, 2008, 03:47:38 PM
Peace all,

It is very clear but unfortunately some people can't read a few lines down and they can only follow their forefathers like sheep.

Peace,

Ayman

Salaam Ayman

I am glad to see that among many sheeps you have A_A (reply 166 above), who can read even more lines down than you can .
One excludes the blind, the other exclude's the deaf and the dumb. :handshake:
Looking forward to non sheepish understanding of the bigger picture when two "momins" exchange their understanding on verbal talaq as well. :hmm

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 04, 2008, 04:03:59 PM
Salaam Ayman

I am glad to see that among many sheeps you have A_A (reply 166 above), who can read even more lines down than you can .
One excludes the blind, the other exclude's the deaf and the dumb. :handshake:
Looking forward to non sheepish understanding of the bigger picture when two momins exchange their understanding on verbal talaq as well. :hmm

 :peace:


 وَمِنَ ٱلنَّاسِ مَن يُعۡجِبُكَ قَوۡلُهُ ۥ فِى ٱلۡحَيَوٰةِ ٱلدُّنۡيَا وَيُشۡهِدُ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ مَا فِى قَلۡبِهِۦ وَهُوَ أَلَدُّ ٱلۡخِصَامِ (٢٠٤) وَإِذَا تَوَلَّىٰ سَعَىٰ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ لِيُفۡسِدَ فِيهَا وَيُهۡلِكَ ٱلۡحَرۡثَ وَٱلنَّسۡلَ‌ۗ وَٱللَّهُ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلۡفَسَادَ (٢٠٥) وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُ ٱتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ أَخَذَتۡهُ ٱلۡعِزَّةُ بِٱلۡإِثۡمِ‌ۚ فَحَسۡبُهُ ۥ جَهَنَّمُ‌ۚ وَلَبِئۡسَ ٱلۡمِهَادُ (٢٠٦)

There is the type of man whose speech about this world's life may dazzle thee and he calls Allah to witness about what is in his heart; yet is he the most contentious of enemies. (204)
When he turns his back his aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and cattle. But Allah loveth not mischief. (205)
When it is said to him "Fear Allah", he is led by arrogance to commit more sins. Enough for him is Hell;―an evil bed indeed (to lie on)! (2-206)

Do not mind what he Says, as you can note from the above verses, that is what his reply will be when you tell him he is wrong.
 :sun:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 04, 2008, 04:22:26 PM
وَمِنَ ٱلنَّاسِ مَن يُعۡجِبُكَ قَوۡلُهُ ۥ فِى ٱلۡحَيَوٰةِ ٱلدُّنۡيَا وَيُشۡهِدُ ٱللَّهَ عَلَىٰ مَا فِى قَلۡبِهِۦ وَهُوَ أَلَدُّ ٱلۡخِصَامِ (٢٠٤) وَإِذَا تَوَلَّىٰ سَعَىٰ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ لِيُفۡسِدَ فِيهَا وَيُهۡلِكَ ٱلۡحَرۡثَ وَٱلنَّسۡلَ‌ۗ وَٱللَّهُ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلۡفَسَادَ (٢٠٥) وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُ ٱتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ أَخَذَتۡهُ ٱلۡعِزَّةُ بِٱلۡإِثۡمِ‌ۚ فَحَسۡبُهُ ۥ جَهَنَّمُ‌ۚ وَلَبِئۡسَ ٱلۡمِهَادُ (٢٠٦)

There is the type of man whose speech about this world's life may dazzle thee and he calls Allah to witness about what is in his heart; yet is he the most contentious of enemies. (204)
When he turns his back his aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and cattle. But Allah loveth not mischief. (205)
When it is said to him "Fear Allah", he is led by arrogance to commit more sins. Enough for him is Hell;―an evil bed indeed (to lie on)! (2-206)

Do not mind what he Says, as you can note from the above verses, that is what his reply will be when you tell him he is wrong.
 :sun:

Salaam

Free_Minds:
"Our Lord, we believe in what You have sent down, and followed the messenger, so record us with those who bear witness."3:53
Free_Minds:
A group from the people of the Scripture wished that they could misguide you, but they only misguide themselves and they do not notice.
3:69

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 04, 2008, 04:32:24 PM
Peace

OK,
What ones can witness in Hajj?

Can a Blind Still witness the Hajj (the Benefits), as he can Witness Rammadan?

Thus, witnessing can be by Hearing or Seeing or Both.


Which post of mine are you alluding at?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Al Araf on September 04, 2008, 04:58:24 PM
Salam belalhammad. There is an interesting analysis to be had, why often more than one Arabic word means almost the same thing.

The example I came across was in studying the origin of the "Ze" in Arabic. Without drawing a Ze, if you imagine the shape of a Ze it is similar to a scythe, an agricultural tool used to cut wheat or rice stalks. If you look at the English Z, you will see the shape of a similar tool, the three parts of the Z being the handle, the arm, and the blade. The scythe was the origin of the Pharoanic scimitar, an early sword. If you compare a Pharoanic scimitar to a scythe you can see the similarity. Eventually the Pharoanic scimitar evolved into the Arab saif, the shape of which resembles a Ze. Apparantly agricultural tools were the origin of some weapons.

The interesting evolution of the letters and words in Arabic results in two ways in which one can say a person has been killed. You can either use the agricultural route and say they have been cut off similar to a harvest, or you can say they have had their head removed similar to a sword being used. Both descriptions are valid.

I hope this clears up your question as to why sometimes more than one word can be used in Arabic to convey the same meaning.

When you come to the word for hot, there is a general consensus that the word Ramadan means the month of hot ground. This is not unusual, Jumada Al Awwal and Jumada Al Thani are the first and second dry months, Jumda means dry. There is often a connection between the names of the month and a seasonal event. The name of the month of Ramadan is no exception.

What is notable is that the month of Ramadan, the month of hot ground, is a month that is readily identifiable worldwide. There is one month in all countries which is the hottest month. This makes the identification of the month of Ramadan easy.

The problem does not lie in identifying which month is Ramadan. The problem begins when people try and impose one universal month as Ramadan, that does not work. People are foolish and not wise. Allah is wise.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 04, 2008, 05:08:01 PM
Peace Farida,

I am glad to see that among many sheeps you have A_A (reply 166 above), who can read even more lines down than you can .
One excludes the blind, the other exclude's the deaf and the dumb. :handshake:
Looking forward to non sheepish understanding of the bigger picture when two "momins" exchange their understanding on verbal talaq as well. :hmm
 :peace:

You still haven't answered my question. Do you have faith in the great reading?

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 04, 2008, 05:13:48 PM
Salam belalhammad. There is an interesting analysis to be had, why often more than one Arabic word means almost the same thing.

The example I came across was in studying the origin of the "Ze" in Arabic. Without drawing a Ze, if you imagine the shape of a Ze it is similar to a scythe, an agricultural tool used to cut wheat or rice stalks. If you look at the English Z, you will see the shape of a similar tool, the three parts of the Z being the handle, the arm, and the blade. The scythe was the origin of the Pharoanic scimitar, an early sword. If you compare a Pharoanic scimitar to a scythe you can see the similarity. Eventually the Pharoanic scimitar evolved into the Arab saif, the shape of which resembles a Ze. Apparantly agricultural tools were the origin of some weapons.

The interesting evolution of the letters and words in Arabic results in two ways in which one can say a person has been killed. You can either use the agricultural route and say they have been cut off similar to a harvest, or you can say they have had their head removed similar to a sword being used. Both descriptions are valid.

I hope this clears up your question as to why sometimes more than one word can be used in Arabic to convey the same meaning.

When you come to the word for hot, there is a general consensus that the word Ramadan means the month of hot ground. This is not unusual, Jumada Al Awwal and Jumada Al Thani are the first and second dry months, Jumda means dry. There is often a connection between the names of the month and a seasonal event. The name of the month of Ramadan is no exception.

What is notable is that the month of Ramadan, the month of hot ground, is a month that is readily identifiable worldwide. There is one month in all countries which is the hottest month. This makes the identification of the month of Ramadan easy.

The problem does not lie in identifying which month is Ramadan. The problem begins when people try and impose one universal month as Ramadan, that does not work. People are foolish and not wise. Allah is wise.

Where in The Quran does Rammadan means Heat?
Straight Answer if you want to not drag this for ever.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 04, 2008, 05:22:53 PM
Which post of mine are you alluding at?

your reply to this:

Peace Every one'


The word "Shahed" means Testify, according to the Quran;

An Example of Shahada or Shada in Quran:

شَهِدَ ٱللَّهُ أَنَّهُ ۥ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَٱلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةُ وَأُوْلُواْ ٱلۡعِلۡمِ قَآٮِٕمَۢا بِٱلۡقِسۡطِۚ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ ٱلۡعَزِيزُ ٱلۡحَڪِيمُ (١٨)

Allah Testifies (Shahed) that there is no god but He, and angels and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice: There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise. (3-18)

I testify (Ashadu) that there is No God But Allah, without Seeing Him.


قُلۡ أَىُّ شَىۡءٍ أَكۡبَرُ شَہَـٰدَةً۬‌ۖ قُلِ ٱللَّهُ‌ۖ شَہِيدُۢ بَيۡنِى وَبَيۡنَكُمۡ‌ۚ وَأُوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هَـٰذَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِۦ وَمَنۢ بَلَغَ‌ۚ أَٮِٕنَّكُمۡ لَتَشۡہَدُونَ أَنَّ مَعَ ٱللَّهِ ءَالِهَةً أُخۡرَىٰ‌ۚ قُل لَّآ أَشۡہَدُ‌ۚ قُلۡ إِنَّمَا هُوَ إِلَـٰهٌ۬ وَٲحِدٌ۬ وَإِنَّنِى بَرِىٓءٌ۬ مِّمَّا تُشۡرِكُونَ (١٩)

Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "Allah is Witness between me and you: this Qur'an hath been revealed to me by inspiration That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there are other gods?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the One God and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him. (6-19)


Now Why Ayman insisting that ones must SEE The MOON if they Want To Fast.
According to God, Shahad means testify or witness by true knowledge.

Was as follow:

Peace Every one'


The word "Shahed" means Testify, according to the Quran;

An Example of Shahada or Shada in Quran:

شَهِدَ ٱللَّهُ أَنَّهُ ۥ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَٱلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةُ وَأُوْلُواْ ٱلۡعِلۡمِ قَآٮِٕمَۢا بِٱلۡقِسۡطِۚ لَآ إِلَـٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ ٱلۡعَزِيزُ ٱلۡحَڪِيمُ (١٨)

Allah Testifies (Shahed) that there is no god but He, and angels and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice: There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise. (3-18)

I testify (Ashadu) that there is No God But Allah, without Seeing Him.


قُلۡ أَىُّ شَىۡءٍ أَكۡبَرُ شَہَـٰدَةً۬‌ۖ قُلِ ٱللَّهُ‌ۖ شَہِيدُۢ بَيۡنِى وَبَيۡنَكُمۡ‌ۚ وَأُوحِىَ إِلَىَّ هَـٰذَا ٱلۡقُرۡءَانُ لِأُنذِرَكُم بِهِۦ وَمَنۢ بَلَغَ‌ۚ أَٮِٕنَّكُمۡ لَتَشۡہَدُونَ أَنَّ مَعَ ٱللَّهِ ءَالِهَةً أُخۡرَىٰ‌ۚ قُل لَّآ أَشۡہَدُ‌ۚ قُلۡ إِنَّمَا هُوَ إِلَـٰهٌ۬ وَٲحِدٌ۬ وَإِنَّنِى بَرِىٓءٌ۬ مِّمَّا تُشۡرِكُونَ (١٩)

Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "Allah is Witness between me and you: this Qur'an hath been revealed to me by inspiration That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there are other gods?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the One God and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him. (6-19)


Now Why Ayman insisting that ones must SEE The MOON if they Want To Fast.
According to God, Shahad means testify or witness by true knowledge.

Now do you agree with Ayman when saying that ones have to witness the Moon by their Eyes if they want to Fast?

Do you agree that "Famen Shahed menkom Elshaher falyasoma" means witnessing by eyes or Ears, or is it by Eyes only?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Al Araf on September 04, 2008, 05:24:56 PM
Salam belalhammad. There is no ayat in the Quran that says "Ramadan means heat" However the root word of Ramadan, Ramd, does mean "burn"

Your question is an example of what is called "Reductio ad Absurdum"

You have reduced your question to an absurd point. Your question makes it impossible for anyone to give you a reasonable answer.

Let me demonstrate. The English word heat is not in the Quran. You know this as well as anyone else. You poisoned the question so that it could not be answered and you will gloat over the fact it was not answered. The result of this is, instead of identifying the correct month, which should have been your goal, you can identify nothing.

Allah exposes falsehood with the truth.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 04, 2008, 06:16:23 PM
Salam belalhammad. There is no ayat in the Quran that says "Ramadan means heat" However the root word of Ramadan, Ramd, does mean "burn"

Ramd is R + M + "D"; The "D" is "Dal" and NOT "DaD".

رَمَادٍ is different from رَمَضَانَ

مَّثَلُ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِرَبِّهِمۡ‌ۖ أَعۡمَـٰلُهُمۡ كَرَمَادٍ ٱشۡتَدَّتۡ بِهِ ٱلرِّيحُ فِى يَوۡمٍ عَاصِفٍ۬‌ۖ لَّا يَقۡدِرُونَ مِمَّا ڪَسَبُواْ عَلَىٰ شَىۡءٍ۬‌ۚ ذَٲلِكَ هُوَ ٱلضَّلَـٰلُ ٱلۡبَعِيدُ (١٨)
The parable of those who reject their Lord is that their works are as ashes, on which the wind blows furiously on a tempestuous day: No power have they over aught that they have earned: That is the straying far, far (from the goal). (14-18)

Now, where is an arabic word that say: رَمَضَ


Let me demonstrate. The English word heat is not in the Quran. You know this as well as anyone else. You poisoned the question so that it could not be answered and you will gloat over the fact it was not answered. The result of this is, instead of identifying the correct month, which should have been your goal, you can identify nothing.

Allah exposes falsehood with the truth.

Heat in Quran is as I posted before, "Har" and "Lza".

Please read and let us repect the Quran as the final say (a Judge) between us, so we can end this debate:

Peace'
Why does "Rammadan" word means "Hot", when God uses other words for Hot?

LET GOD TELL US:
Extreme and intense Heat is:

 Part of 9-81 وَقَالُواْ لَا تَنفِرُواْ فِى ٱلۡحَرِّ‌ۗ قُلۡ نَارُ جَهَنَّمَ أَشَدُّ حَرًّ۬ا‌ۚ لَّوۡ كَانُواْ يَفۡقَهُونَ (٨١)

Those who were left behind rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight with their goods and their persons, in the Cause of Allah: they said "Go not forth in the heat
. Say "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat
." If only they could understand! (9-81)

Why God did not use the Word Ramadan Instead of "Har" or "Al-Har"?

وَلَا ٱلظِّلُّ وَلَا ٱلۡحَرُورُ (٢١)
Nor are the (chilly) shade and the extreme heat of the sun: (35-21)

Why again God ignored the use of Rammadan instead of "Harror" 


 وَٱللَّهُ جَعَلَ لَكُم مِّمَّا خَلَقَ ظِلَـٰلاً۬ وَجَعَلَ لَكُم مِّنَ ٱلۡجِبَالِ أَڪۡنَـٰنً۬ا وَجَعَلَ لَكُمۡ سَرَٲبِيلَ تَقِيڪُمُ ٱلۡحَرَّ وَسَرَٲبِيلَ تَقِيكُم بَأۡسَڪُمۡ‌ۚ كَذَٲلِكَ يُتِمُّ نِعۡمَتَهُ ۥ عَلَيۡڪُمۡ لَعَلَّكُمۡ تُسۡلِمُونَ (٨١)

It is Allah who made out of the things He created, some things to give you shade; of the hills He made some for your shelter; He made you garments to protect you from heat
, and coats of mail to protect you from your (mutual) violence. Thus does He complete his favours on you, that ye may surrender to His will (in Islam). (16-81)

Heat is "Har" and never the Word Rammadan.

 فَأَنذَرۡتُكُمۡ نَارً۬ا تَلَظَّىٰ
 (١٤)
Therefore do I warn you of a Fire blazing fiercely; (92-14)


كَلَّآ‌ۖ إِنَّہَا لَظَىٰ (١٥)
By no means! For it would be the blazing Heat of Hell!― (70-15)


NOW, Where is Your and Ayman and every body who claim Rammadan to mean Heat, proof FROM QURAN. OTHERWISE, you are Misleading People From the TRue Meaning of Quranic Words.


Now, read this:

 كَانَ ٱلنَّاسُ أُمَّةً۬ وَٲحِدَةً۬ فَبَعَثَ ٱللَّهُ ٱلنَّبِيِّـۧنَ مُبَشِّرِينَ وَمُنذِرِينَ وَأَنزَلَ مَعَهُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ بِٱلۡحَقِّ لِيَحۡكُمَ بَيۡنَ ٱلنَّاسِ فِيمَا ٱخۡتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ‌ۚ وَمَا ٱخۡتَلَفَ فِيهِ إِلَّا ٱلَّذِينَ أُوتُوهُ مِنۢ بَعۡدِ مَا جَآءَتۡهُمُ ٱلۡبَيِّنَـٰتُ بَغۡيَۢا بَيۡنَهُمۡ‌ۖ فَهَدَى ٱللَّهُ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لِمَا ٱخۡتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ مِنَ ٱلۡحَقِّ بِإِذۡنِهِۦ‌ۗ وَٱللَّهُ يَهۡدِى مَن يَشَآءُ إِلَىٰ صِرَٲطٍ۬ مُّسۡتَقِيمٍ (٢١٣)
Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace guided the believers to the Truth concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guides whom He will to a path that is straight. (2-213)

 أَفَغَيۡرَ ٱللَّهِ أَبۡتَغِى حَكَمً۬ا وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَنزَلَ إِلَيۡڪُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مُفَصَّلاً۬‌ۚ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَاتَيۡنَـٰهُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ يَعۡلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ ۥ مُنَزَّلٌ۬ مِّن رَّبِّكَ بِٱلۡحَقِّ‌ۖ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ ٱلۡمُمۡتَرِينَ (١١٤)
Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah?― when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. (6-114)

LET US USE THE BOOK TO END THIS IN THE LIGHT OF THE TRUTH
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: rsw on September 04, 2008, 06:30:54 PM
dear belalhammed,

just curious, are there any other words in the Qu'ran that don't mean anything?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 04, 2008, 06:36:29 PM
dear belalhammed,

just curious, are there any other words in the Qu'ran that don't mean anything?

There are Names that Means nothing but the Name.
Example:

Moses, Jesus, Moon, Sun, Stars, Jin, Ramadan, Ismael, ..etc
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: rsw on September 04, 2008, 07:57:11 PM
Moses: son or deliver http://www.behindthename.com/name/moses
Jesus: based on Joshua http://www.behindthename.com/name/jesus ---> Joshua "Yahweh is salvation" http://www.behindthename.com/name/joshua
Moon: satellite of earth http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:moon&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Sun: star that is source of light and heat for the solar system http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:sun&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Stars: massive luminous ball of plasma http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Astars
Jinn: invisible being created from fire http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Ajinn
Ishmael: God will hear http://www.behindthename.com/name/ishmael

I'm not trying to lend credibility to the "ramadan = scorching heat" thing; I don't have any knowledge about that.  Most words have meanings, however, or else they would not be words.  Even proper names have meanings. 

belal: wetting, refreshing http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Belal.html
hammad: praised http://www.zelo.com/firstnames/findresults.asp?name=HAMMAD

An example of a word without meaning is a gibberish word like "clufth" or "cubirm", these words have no meanings because I just invented (or discovered...?) them.  Do you think month names are derived nonsensically like this, or that they are named after their qualities?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 04, 2008, 08:23:47 PM
Moses: son or deliver http://www.behindthename.com/name/moses
Jesus: based on Joshua http://www.behindthename.com/name/jesus ---> Joshua "Yahweh is salvation" http://www.behindthename.com/name/joshua
Moon: satellite of earth http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:moon&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Sun: star that is source of light and heat for the solar system http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:sun&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Stars: massive luminous ball of plasma http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Astars
Jinn: invisible being created from fire http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Ajinn
Ishmael: God will hear http://www.behindthename.com/name/ishmael

I'm not trying to lend credibility to the "ramadan = scorching heat" thing; I don't have any knowledge about that.  Most words have meanings, however, or else they would not be words.  Even proper names have meanings. 

belal: wetting, refreshing http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Belal.html
hammad: praised http://www.zelo.com/firstnames/findresults.asp?name=HAMMAD

An example of a word without meaning is a gibberish word like "clufth" or "cubirm", these words have no meanings because I just invented (or discovered...?) them.  Do you think month names are derived nonsensically like this, or that they are named after their qualities?

Peace

Did God use one of the words that I showed you to refer to spacific meaning, as the ones you stated, in Quran?
For example, when hearing the name Moses in Quran, what does God wants us to understand?

DO you know that the Arabic word that discribes two men having sex is "Loat".
Do you know why? Because they are using the name of Prophet Lut as a Root word for Man and man having Sex. Would you agree with them, or would you agree that Lut is a name of a respected Messanger?
Arabic dictionaries containe mistakes, simply because they are not divine.
Thus, the Quran is above all Books when Judging a meaning of a Word.
Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Rajah on September 04, 2008, 08:33:45 PM
Hello all,
Well I am not into Ayman's camp or another member's camp in fact Ayman would totally agree that there is no such thing. The only thing that anyone should care about is the quran.(God,Quran and me..)
Scorching moon,scorching month,new moon...whatever...BUT the quran as we all know,was not only meant for this generation with their cellphones,notebooks,fancy equipment to sight the stars...it was also meant for generations before us, way way before us. & remember fasting was prescribed to those who came before us too..The thing that could be easliy spotted would be something outa the norm.The moon is always white/a shade of white but a red moon clearly would stand out! If that is so that would mean something and Allah mentions it in the quran ,why choose to look the other way. Anyone who can prove that this red moon appears several times/regularly within 360 or 365 days (in a 30 day or so interval) please do so(I doubt except for eclipse).
The red moon could be the marker for start of ramadhan (current thinking) or more accurately the 4 forbidden months. Fasting may fall into this period of time. Occam' razor-no need to look elsewhere-just watch the moon,of course not all the time...forget the mainstream calendar..But just use it for secular/work-related purposes. (so is is a six day week?-maybe another time...)

Happy Red Moon Year!!
This year I actually saw a red moon (not a full one)-I was so excited-the very first time in my life..(a little spooky though)
Salaam to all..
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 04, 2008, 08:43:46 PM
Peace RSW,

An example of a word without meaning is a gibberish word like "clufth" or "cubirm", these words have no meanings because I just invented (or discovered...?) them.  Do you think month names are derived nonsensically like this, or that they are named after their qualities?

Proper names have their original meanings in common nouns but those meanings are irrelevant and for all intents and purposes they are just as meaningless as gibberish word like "clufth". This is why proper names are not translated. So when I say Bush, if I am talking about the plant then it is translated but if I am talking about the proper name of the president then it is not translated. Common nouns fit in the context while proper names do not and translating them leads to nonsense. So in the great reading proper names like Ismail and Ibrahim are not translated into Arabic from whatever they meant in Canaanite or Old Akadian or whatever language Abraham spoke or those names were borrowed from. On the other hand, the god translates concepts that existed since the time of Abraham like "al-muslimin", "islam", etc. into Arabic so those cannot be proper names, especially since their common universal meaning fits in the context. So those must be translated in an English conversation. Similarly the word "ramadan" must be translated because its common meaning fits in the context and in fact, it provides valuable information about the timing.

In the great reading, words like "qamar"/moon, "shams"/sun, "nejoom"/stars, "ins"/humans, "jin"/fantasies, "ramadan"/scorching are all common nouns and they should be translated and their meanings fit in the context. The trick of turning common universal concepts into proper names to mislead people has been used by hypocrites and deceivers throughout history and unfortunately we are seeing it here on this thread. So for example, now "ramadan" the central word in 2:185 becomes meaningless so people can justify following their forefathers in fasting a completely random month and it was used by politicians to make a Michiavilian unpatriotic law into the PATRIOT Act. For more info on the timing issue, you can see the following article:

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 04, 2008, 08:46:01 PM
The moon is always white/a shade of white but a red moon clearly would stand out! If that is so that would mean something and Allah mentions it in the quran ,why choose to look the other way.
Peace
Scorching Moon is discribed as Follow:

وَخَسَفَ ٱلۡقَمَرُ (٨) وَجُمِعَ ٱلشَّمۡسُ وَٱلۡقَمَرُ (٩)
 And the moon is (Kussef) eclipsed. (75-8)
And the sun and moon are joined together― (75-9)
Why God did not use the word Rammadan to discrib such an event? :!
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 04, 2008, 08:59:15 PM
Peace Rajah,

Well I am not into Ayman's camp or another member's camp in fact Ayman would totally agree that there is no such thing. The only thing that anyone should care about is the quran.(God,Quran and me..)
Scorching moon,scorching month,new moon...whatever...BUT the quran as we all know,was not only meant for this generation with their cellphones,notebooks,fancy equipment to sight the stars...it was also meant for generations before us, way way before us. & remember fasting was prescribed to those who came before us too..The thing that could be easliy spotted would be something outa the norm.The moon is always white/a shade of white but a red moon clearly would stand out! If that is so that would mean something and Allah mentions it in the quran ,why choose to look the other way. Anyone who can prove that this red moon appears several times/regularly within 360 or 365 days (in a 30 day or so interval) please do so(I doubt except for eclipse).
The red moon could be the marker for start of ramadhan (current thinking) or more accurately the 4 forbidden months. Fasting may fall into this period of time. Occam' razor-no need to look elsewhere-just watch the moon,of course not all the time...forget the mainstream calendar..But just use it for secular/work-related purposes. (so is is a six day week?-maybe another time...)
Happy Red Moon Year!!
This year I actually saw a red moon (not a full one)-I was so excited-the very first time in my life..(a little spooky though)
Salaam to all..

Indeed it is all very simple and easy. We would only make it harder on ourselves by ignoring the truth from our lord and instead trying to desperately fit the great reading into the traditional timing. It is good to have debates as long as everyone is focused on the truth. However, there is no benefit when people are focused on arguing for the sake of arguing or for the sake of justifying traditional preconceptions.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 04, 2008, 09:07:16 PM
Peace all:
Happy Rammadan Gift for you, understand the Red Moon here:

http://oblate-spheroid.blogspot.com/2008/02/leap-year-red-moon-lunar-eclipse.html

Now, does it happen only in summer?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 05, 2008, 12:13:28 AM
your reply to this:
(quoting yourself)
Was as follow:
(quoting yourself again)

Which of the two quotes is posted by me? :nope:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 05, 2008, 12:50:37 AM
Now do you agree with Ayman when saying that ones have to witness the Moon by their Eyes if they want to Fast?

Do you agree that "Famen Shahed menkom Elshaher falyasoma" means witnessing by eyes or Ears, or is it by Eyes only?

Do you agree that one has to witness the moon if they want to fast?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Rajah on September 05, 2008, 06:44:57 AM
Peace
Scorching Moon is discribed as Follow:

وَخَسَفَ ٱلۡقَمَرُ (٨) وَجُمِعَ ٱلشَّمۡسُ وَٱلۡقَمَرُ (٩)
 And the moon is (Kussef) eclipsed. (75-8)
And the sun and moon are joined together― (75-9)
Why God did not use the word Rammadan to discrib such an event? :!

Hello bro! Of course, with all due respect, what God wanted to say has been said in the quran...Well if you don mind me asking,do all lunar eclipses turn the moon red?(Honestly, pardon me) How often do they appear? If such a red moon appears in winter due to an eclipse, should we call it (just) a red moon or a scorching moon? Does the description fit?
Remember Allah does not want to impose any hardships on us therefore He could have made the shahr ramadhan (the one we are talking about that appears once a year during the hottest periods) easy to spot. Not too frequent & not too remote like the eclipse....It blends in with the easy system,30 day month(sexagesimal?)..comes back in a circle-a historical meaning to it-instead of like the current Eid falling one year in December and another in October..& prior to that,someome has to scramble to see the moon to announce "Okay I declare all should fast right about now!!" while the masses have been waiting "when..when". We all depend on someone,cannot use own own brains and it all be fine if we just follow what is in the quran...AND if anyone sincerely is not sure...don't follow..right? 
Of course the handicap is language, people like Ayman and some others are the 'language tutors' whose help we need besides the lexicon stuff..As long the "handicap" is not ignorance or indifference or disbelief..peace will prevail... :pr

have a great weekend....
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 05, 2008, 10:30:48 AM
Peace Farida,

You still haven't answered my question. Do you have faith in the great reading?

Peace,

Ayman

Salaam Ayman

Sorry I didn't realise you had this question for me.
Well!!! I centainly have faith in the Qur'an but I do not have faith in the personal interpretation of one person, so for that reason, we need to debate and research all channels before arriving at a conclusion.

Now as I have replied to your question it would benefit us all if you could reply to Neil who has asked you for a clarification.

 For your convenience I am pasting it here:

[Peace all,

I have read Ayman's articles on Ramadan and Laylat Al-Qadr and have questions that I hope can be answered.

Ayman you seem to say that Ramadan is around the time of the summer solstice (first full moon after it until the next full moon) and that the restrictions on game hunting associated with Hajj in the following months have much to do with the seasons and animal behavior within these months. I quote below..

"The timing of the restriction is significant, especially given that the restriction is on hunting wild-life. Interestingly, the restriction doesn't cover domesticated livestock animals (see 5:1). Why is that? The answer may be because summer is the time when most wild animals and even wild birds give birth. By killing a wild female animal, you are not only killing it but you would also be inadvertently killing all its new-born off-spring who cannot feed and fend for themselves...."

"...Of course, our analysis indicates that the restriction period would be different between the southern and the northern hemisphere. This is fine. There is nothing in the great reading that indicates that they should be the same for people all over the world. We should orient our direction to the truth from our Lord wherever we are, whether in the Southern or Northern hemisphere (see 2:149). "

I understand that Ayman means that in the Southern Hemisphere Ramadan will take place after the first full moon after the summer solstice here (I am in Australia) ie after 22 December. Consequently I also take Ayman to mean that we will also have our own 'sacred/restricted months' in which we in the Southern Hemisphere will observe our own Hajj in the months after our Ramadan and hunting restrictions which are appropriate in those months?

If there are 2 Ramadans does it not follow that there are also two sets of sacred months/hajj? Will the location of Hajj cater to pilgrims over a period of 6 months in the year or are there two different locations? surely not?

It also follows that there would be two laylat al-qadr per year? Will there not also be two calendars with two different new years day as the count of full moon months is to begin in the period between one summer solstice to the next?

Thanks for your clarification  

http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm

 :hmm According to your learned friend A_A  okey, it doesn't matter if we have two sets of sacred months/hajj as the aim is to preserve wild life and its doesnt matter that momins fast where ever they happen to face the scorching moon, but which laylat al-qadr should be taken as the real one, mentioned in the Qur'an ???

Look forward to your contribution

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 05, 2008, 10:56:58 AM
Hello bro! Of course, with all due respect, what God wanted to say has been said in the quran...Well if you don mind me asking,do all lunar eclipses turn the moon red?(Honestly, pardon me) How often do they appear? If such a red moon appears in winter due to an eclipse, should we call it (just) a red moon or a scorching moon? Does the description fit?

Peace,

We do not need to play around; Red Moon is what Ayman claiming to happen in June; Red Moon is what Ayman claiming to be "Shahar Rammadan".
Now; after I showed you the Verse where ALLAH Calls Such Event As "Kosef El Kamar" and Not Shahar Rammadn; and after I posted a very reliable Link that explains why Red Moon occurs, and shows that it Happen in Winter, Summer, or Spring and Fall.

Now, are you still trying to find more excuse for Ayman's Propaganda?


Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 05, 2008, 11:03:24 AM
Do you agree that one has to witness the moon if they want to fast?

Please, clairfy to Which Stage (e.g., Crescent or Full) of the Moon you are refering to, and what Color (Red or the common Collor--White)?

Which of the two quotes is posted by me? :nope:


NONE of Them :rotfl:

Sorry about that, I will try one more time

Salaam Belal

I also thought of the meaning "to testify", but descarded it immediately after scanning this verb in the qur'aan and how it is used.. The verb "yashhadu" meaning "to testify" does not take a direct object. You cannot find in the qur'aan "yashhadu something" meaning  to testify. It's to testify THAT or testify ON/UPON something/someone (yashhadu unna/inna or yashhadu 3ala), or just yashhadu without being followed directly by the object.

In the case this verb is followed directly by the object (as the case of the verse we are discussing), then it means to witness.
I hope others try to search this verb in the qur'aan in case I missed something.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 05, 2008, 11:18:02 AM
Peace,

We do not need to play around; Red Moon is what Ayman claiming to happen in June; Red Moon is what Ayman claiming to be "Shahar Rammadan".
Now; after I showed you the Verse where ALLAH Calls Such Event As "Kosef El Kamar" and Not Shahar Rammadn; and after I posted a very reliable Link that explains why Red Moon occurs, and shows that it Happen in Winter, Summer, or Spring and Fall.



Salaam Bilahhammad

I would like to add this; in fairness I would say that there's doubt that, the month of Ramadan we are observing is actually the right one.  I have seen, even in my own life time, how relegious organizations have played with the sighting of the moon and how Saudies control when to start Ramadan so that Hajj may fall in convenient days to accomodate huge number of Hajjis.

I am pretty sure that others too have, in the past, played their part in switching the months, but that does not mean I accept Ayman's version.

For that reason I have pasted above some very valid questions for deliberations from all who can contribute including Nun de plume.

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 05, 2008, 11:33:21 AM
Salaam Bilahhammad

I would like to add this; in fairness I would say that there's doubt that, the month of Ramadan we are observing is actually the right one.  I have seen, even in my own life time, how relegious organizations have played with the sighting of the moon and how Saudies control when to start Ramadan so that Hajj may fall in convenient days to accomodate huge number of Hajjis.

I am pretty sure that others too have, in the past, played their part in switching the months, but that does not mean I accept Ayman's version.



Peace,
ones can play and make mistakes when sighting the crescent. But the mistake will never effect the sequence of the Months; after all the Crescent will have to appear and the Moon will have to disappear.
Salam
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 05, 2008, 02:39:54 PM
Peace,
ones can play and make mistakes when sighting the crescent. But the mistake will never effect the sequence of the Months; after all the Crescent will have to appear and the Moon will have to disappear.
Salam


Salaam Belalhammad

True! but its been claimed that even months or hijri was messed up, and its possible that things drastically changed after the Mongol invasion;
the question arises: why would one change it unless there was some political reason to do so?
However  no one can reject that the moon is used to calculate the year or, as Ayman says the 12 moons  and as Neil said :It also follows that there would be two laylat al-qadr per year? Will there not also be two calendars with two different new years day as the count of the full moon months is to begin in the period between one summer solstice and the next?  

I am waiting for Ayman to clarify, in such a scenario, which would be the actual laylat al-qadr, as its definitely one night per year. 

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 05, 2008, 03:11:58 PM
Salaam Belalhammad

True! but its been claimed that even months or hijri was messed up, and its possible that things drastically changed after the Mongol invasion;

Peace,

Rumors are what you will hear, but truth is what you should believe.

Our Rammadan Month has been comming in its respected turn after Shaban; There is no Moslem contry or sect will disagree that Rammadan month this year is between September 1 thru October 1.

By the way, did you watch the Scorching Moon Video in the Link I provided?
It is amazing!!!
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 05, 2008, 03:19:41 PM
Peace,


By the way, did you watch the Scorching Moon Video in the Link I provided?
It is amazing!!!

Yes I did and I understand very well what you posted and looked at it too
However I am waiting for Ayman to resolve the two laylat al-qadr scenario. :-XMaybe it's Friday night so not many want to sit on this site but I will be waiting for a response.
 :hmm
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 05, 2008, 06:54:12 PM
Peace Farida,

Well!!! I centainly have faith in the Qur'an but I do not have faith in the personal interpretation of one person,

Thank you for answering. It is good that we established that you have faith in the great reading because otherwise the whole matter of discussing with you the timing of the abstinence would be pointless.

Not having faith in personal interpretations is what most people say. On the other hand, here is what you said on September 3rd on another thread about who you are following:

It could be someone like you but surely he has a bigger following than you will ever have.

So for the timing of the abstinence you have faith in someone that you don?t know and who didn?t even base the timing on anything in the great reading. In fact, had that person started the so-called Islamic calendar three years earlier then you would be fasting in what was Shaaban a month ago. So you are currently fasting a completely random month that has nothing to do with the great reading.

so for that reason, we need to debate and research all channels before arriving at a conclusion.

What debate? A debate requires at least two points of views to be presented and compared. I presented my point of view based on the great reading. You didn?t present anything based on the great reading or otherwise. All you presented was some attempt at a strange argument that since Umar is a proper name then ?ramadan? must be a proper name. This is not a logical argument for any debate and it doesn?t say anything about how you achieved your present understanding based on your faith in the great reading.

When your children ask you why are we fasting now, is that what you are going to tell them? ?We are following someone like Ayman but surely he has a bigger following than Ayman will ever have? and "because Umar is a proper name". Is this the legacy you want to leave?

Now as I have replied to your question it would benefit us all if you could reply to Neil who has asked you for a clarification.

All of Neil?s questions are already explained by the fact that the restriction is on hunting wild-life and hence the restricted full-moons have to be different in the southern and northern hemispheres. Neil then goes on and answers his own questions as ?surely not?. So why does he need an answer from me if it is ?surely not??

If one is talking about the meaningless cultural names Ramadan, Laylat-al-Qadr, Hajj, and manmade calendars then yes, ?surely not?. But if one is talking about the common universal concepts of scorching full-moon, the night of measure (36:39 and 97:1), the feast, and god-given cosmic markers then surely when the scorching full-moon occurs and when the restricted full-moons occur would be different between the southern and northern hemispheres and surely there can be more than one location for the feast (hagg) based on the clear location given in 22:26 and surely the night of measure according to 36:39 occurs many times in the year every year and it is the same in the southern and northern hemispheres. One of those nights of measure which also had a scorching full-moon is when the great reading was descended. This doesn?t mean that the night of measure and a scorching full-moon only occurred one time over 1400 years ago. I hope I am clear.

If you want to have a real debate then please present how you reached your understanding of the timing based on your faith in the great reading and then we can compare and follow the best available as of now.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Rajah on September 05, 2008, 07:23:59 PM
Peace,


Now, are you still trying to find more excuse for Ayman's Propaganda?


I said it before and I say it again,bro...There is no Ayman's propaganda for me....There is no Ayman's version! (I donno whether you give a rat's tail, I don believe in fasting for ten days or 20 or 29,30 or 31. BTW the 10 day fast is conjucntion with the pilgrimage..pilgrimage to where?I really donno..i don follow..).  For you it is your own belalhammad/mainstream ramadhan version.For me I sincerely believe God really wants no hardship. If you read the my earlier posts carefully,I was refering strictly to the 4 restricted months in relation to the scorching moon and for the record, I don giva flying ____ about your fasting month that you have chosen to call 'Ramadhan'. I just said this to sunnis now I am saying this to a fellow free-minds org member...  (U may say that to me too,alright , peace to the world) I will fast if I had broken any vows...
Peace is my vow...but ....

"shows that it Happen in Winter, Summer, or Spring and Fall.'
Well done, so which will fit 'shar ramadhan'? An eclipse is an eclipse and a shar is a shar..Did you answer my query on how oftern it happens within a year?. So you are very postively sure that all eclipses will result in red moon?  Moon,satelite,crescent,full moon........it all depends on the situation.Now Shahr needs to be proved that it is an event not caused by an eclipse,that's all.It a full moon that is red and not caused by an eclipse.Either it should or disapproved,right?

'Our Rammadan Month has been comming in its respected turn after Shaban; There is no Moslem contry or sect will disagree that Rammadan month this year is between September 1 thru October 1.' 6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess. 

for you....
2:185 The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur?an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.   taken off our sweet website..'month'

OOOOkay.This is the one and only verse which has the word ramadhan..
Now lemme ask you ,where in the Quran does Allah say fast for 28 or 29 (if your month falls in Feb) 30 or 31 days depending on the month in clear explicit qurayish arabic? He only says fast therein..where man where Allah also says the month to fast will vary year to year, sunni to shia,19ers to you get the drift....Now do not point to four or five star members..Do not come up with NASA pix.

Remember Allah behind the whole shebang did not forget anything  20:52 He said: ?It?s knowledge is with my Lord, in a record. My Lord does not err or forget.?

We have proven to you (some other guys & i could not refuse) that fasting is not meant for all except a few folks by refering to all the verses in the quran and not to NASA pix,youtube videos and the like.U wanna fast for 30 days,your own biz..U wanna see a moon and call the following 30 days ramadhan,again your own biz.....

Remember my main concern is the scorching moon welcoming a new count of 12 months. And the 4 restricted months where there's a lot going on y'all..AND also a way to establish a community based on the quran.(which was soon deserted-in the forum that is..after i mentioned hunting,non pollution..etc) My next would be having a consesus on 6 day week...

7:54 Your Lord is God who created the heavens and Earth in six days, then He settled upon the throne. The night runs from the day, which seeks it continually; and the sun and the moon and the stars are all subjected by His command; to Him is the creation and the command. Glory be to God, the Lord of the worlds.  a hint at sexagesimal?
10:5 He is the One who made the sun to emit light, and the moon to reflect it, and He measured its phases; that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except for truth. He details the revelations for a people who know.   


...yeah yeah yeah the topics in the quran jump all over the place like they are placing hopscotch..the scribes who wrote the whole thing did not have time to arrange it?I donno -offtopic---Hey I am having fun!!!
80:13 In records which are honorable.
80:14 Raised and pure.
80:15 By the hands of scribes.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Rajah on September 05, 2008, 07:40:31 PM

ahem....

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15421.45
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Rajah on September 05, 2008, 09:21:12 PM
I just wanted to say i have got nothing against the arabic language when I mentioned not giving a..about ramadhan.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Rajah on September 05, 2008, 09:23:54 PM
.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 05, 2008, 10:48:06 PM
Peace Ayman

To end this, please read the following:

If the following is true:

?and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide a Mercy and Glad Tidings to Muslims. (16-89)

and if the following is true:

And Allah will judge with Truth: but those whom (men) invoke besides Him, will not to judge at all. Verily it is Allah Who hears and sees. (40-20)

And if the following is true:

Whatever it be wherein ye differ, the decision thereof is with Allah: Such is Allah my Lord: in Him I trust, and to Him I turn. (42-10)

Then, proof to me and to all that:

1-The word Rammadan=Heat
2-The word Shahar=Full Moon
3-The Word M3dodat=few or 10 days

From the Quran, as I did prove that they don't from Quran.

Otherwise, you have no Ground in claiming that Shahar Rammadan=Scorching Moon, and we should fast for ten days

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 06, 2008, 09:16:18 AM

Of course the handicap is language, people like Ayman and some others are the 'language tutors' whose help we need besides the lexicon stuff..As long the "handicap" is not ignorance or indifference or disbelief..peace will prevail... :pr

  >:D
Quote
Remember my main concern is the scorching moon welcoming a new count of 12 months. And the 4 restricted months where there's a lot going on y'all..AND also a way to establish a community based on the quran
Is it really to establish a community based on the Quran and, not following the majority, or joining even a bigger majority of Solstice community. Starting from the night of measure and from then on journay to secret months etc. Actually you should go back to the orignal event:
A celebration of life - standing amongst the towering stones with 30,000 others watching the sun rise on the magical midsummer morning.
It's great to be able to stand inside the sacred circle of sarsens as our ancestors did as dawn appears over the Heel Stone - much better than from behind a fence. A traditional way to celebrate the longest day of the year.
There's an amazing communal excitement at the solstice sunrise as the spiritual ancestry of this prehistoric temple is celebrated - with whoops of joy, drumming, horn blowing, cheering and applause...it makes you feel good to be alive.
This re-enacting of an ancient ceremony brings a mystical link, stretching right back through the aeons of time, producing almost a celebratory communion with our ancestors.
The mighty stones seem to breathe
...
http://www.new-age.co.uk/



Happy Red Moon Year!!
This year I actually saw a red moon (not a full one)-I was so excited-the very first time in my life..(a little spooky though)
Salaam to all..

:hmm and how come it is scorching because it has taken its light from Sun God the maker

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 06, 2008, 09:56:42 AM
Peace Farida,

Thank you for answering. It is good that we established that you have faith in the great reading because otherwise the whole matter of discussing with you the timing of the abstinence would be pointless.


Ayman

My Pleasure!!!

Quote
Not having faith in personal interpretations is what most people say.
If you want to have a real debate then please present how you reached your understanding of the timing based on your faith in the great reading and then we can compare and follow the best available as of now.

Peace,

But the Hoopoe  said: "I have compassed ( www ) which thou hast not compassed, and I have come to thee from http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm with tidings true.

 "I found (there)  Ayman ruling over them and provided with every requisite

"I found him and his people worshipping the sun besides Allah. Satan has made their deeds seem pleasing in their eyes, and has kept them away from the Path,- so they receive no guidance,- Save the blind!!!
Ayman says:
Quote
Hence, the full-moon after the summer solstice is easier to witness. Moreover, because this orange moon appears while the days are longest, at the time of its appearance it is still daylight and it is still hot outside. All these signs are certainly not coincidental

Pagans are in awe of the incredible strength of the sun and the divine powers that create life

This is how You incorporate the incredible strength of the sun into your version of the great reading:
Quote
:
When does scorching heat begin to take place? The time of scorching heat starts after the summer solstice. This is the time when the sun is at its highest point and hence the shadow is smallest. Verse 25:45 talks about the indicative relationship between the sun and the shadow. It is after the summer solstice that the weather starts to become hot
So now that we have this puzzle finally solved, let's turn our attention back to the restricted full-moons. We already determined that the first full-moon after the summer solstice (the full-moon of "ramadhan") is the first restricted full-moon. Hence, counting four full-moons beginning with the first full-moon after the summer solstice would give us the restricted four full-moons and as usual, the crescent times the end of the period (a period of about 90+10 ≈ 100 days). The solstice happens towards the later part of June (June 22 or so). The full-moon of scorching heat would be 0-30 days after that. Thus, the start of the restricted full-moons would be on average around the beginning of the second week of July and would end around the third week in October (this is average but it could be sooner or as late as end of October depending on when the full-moon occurred after the summer solstice). So the restriction full-moons cover the time from about mid summer to mid fall.

Reflection from the sun god starting from mid summe ????

You say:

When the night of measure ("laylat al-qadr") occurs was inadvertently found. Simply, according to 2:185 the great reading was sent down in the night of the full-moon of scorching heat, which is also the night of measure: 97:1. We have sent it down in the night of measure.

Hence, the night of the measure is the night of the abstinence (i.e., the night before the abstinence when the full-moon of scorching heat is observed
... linking it again to 'Solstice'( derives from the Latin term meaning 'sun stood still', ...Sun God


Similar incorporation occurred in the past:

The Summer Solstice was incorporated into the Christian calendar during the spread of Christianity, and like so many of the old festivals, was given new meaning which was considered less Paganistic and more suited to the Christian festival. The Summer Solstice became the feast day of 'St. John the Baptist'

 Another method to mark a season/solstice was by watching the Sun or Moon from a fixed position. The method was frequently used throughout Europe, Asia, and the Americas. Stonehenge (England UK) is an example of this method. This is one of the reasons that Summer Solstice celebrations continue even today linking with the acknowledgement of 'Nature and the Seasons' and may be why they have been passed on/through different belief systems (Pagans, Druids). Stonehenge is believed to have been constructed before the Pyramids. Incidently, the temple at 'Karnack' in Egypt also appears to have used solstice alignments

http://www.mystical-www.co.uk/solstice/index.htm#sols


I would therefore suggest that Ayman put his and his sheeps  picture on this site bellow or withdraw your claim.
                             
Stonehenge Summer Solstice pictures Sto
 New Age Events 2008 - festivals, fairs and fun


As for me I follow the Qur'an and the rightly guided messenger.

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 06, 2008, 11:39:53 AM
Peace Farida,

As for me I follow the Qur'an and the rightly guided messenger.

This is just an empty slogan used by all clueless Sunnis and Shias while they blindly follow like sheep their forefathers. Thus, exactly like them when quizzed on showing how the timing that they follow is based on the great reading, you are conveniently mute. So it is not surprising that you are unable to debate and you instead make noise with mindless argumentation to evade the question of "how your timing is based on the great reading?". I invited you to a debate by presenting your evidence for the timing based on the great reading, which you claimed to have faith in. If you are unable to do it, then your claim just like your slogan is empty and I don't have any time to waste on your nonsense (such as "ramadan is a proper name because Umar is a proper name") especially since my point is already being proven by your hypocrisy.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Rajah on September 06, 2008, 11:42:29 AM
  >:D Is it really to establish a community based on the Quran and, not following the majority, or joining even a bigger majority of Solstice community. Starting from the night of measure and from then on journay to secret months etc. Actually you should go back to the orignal event:
A celebration of life - standing amongst the towering stones with 30,000 others watching the sun rise on the magical midsummer morning.
It's great to be able to stand inside the sacred circle of sarsens as our ancestors did as dawn appears over the Heel Stone - much better than from behind a fence. A traditional way to celebrate the longest day of the year.
There's an amazing communal excitement at the solstice sunrise as the spiritual ancestry of this prehistoric temple is celebrated - with whoops of joy, drumming, horn blowing, cheering and applause...it makes you feel good to be alive.
This re-enacting of an ancient ceremony brings a mystical link, stretching right back through the aeons of time, producing almost a celebratory communion with our ancestors.
The mighty stones seem to breathe
...
http://www.new-age.co.uk/


:hmm and how come it is scorching because it has taken its light from Sun God the maker

 :peace:

Woman,you are deranged...Have you forgotten Allah and jumped on board with your imaginary pagan friends? Are you not a little old for imaginary friends.


You praise Sun God, that 's your problem,You deny Allah being the reason behind every phonemenon by calling upon your pagan infested views..How dare you mention a pagan deity!!! Allah says the moon and the sun are for markers and such. My life is dedicated to Allah and that's my problem. You go to the stonehenge and do your dance..I never ever thought about the stone Henge,you did .Instead of reading the quran and giving all of us here a better understanding of each others' views you go search for stonehenge...what.the ???.remember my appraoch has always been polite,you step outa line by calling me 'cult member' or similar degrading mantles, God helpme keep a civil tongue.. For me, It has always been Allah from the day I began my journey. farida,where did you get the idea we worship the sun? How can you stoop so goddamn low to protect your interests and views..Noone else have been so aggressive in defending baseless views yes again Goddamn Baseless views & you have to dig your pagan past and summon the sun-god and the stonehenge to harrass..To Allah all your imaginary monsters are too trivial and will be sqaushed..No 2 members in this forum will agree on everthing......SO LEAVE IT AT THAT...

God willing, I will join any quranic communtiy that i can find no matter how small,how poor and I bet we will not speak of pagan things,You go join the 30 day fast New Moon community-oh yeah you are already in (the biggest and the majority )and it seems you are the spokesperson,all the best,look for a new moon every year (oh dearwhere's the new moon ..where's the new moon..has anybody seen the new moon..boohoohoo i wanna fast and i wanna fast now!!) fast whatever month, be it 28,29,30 or 31 day month you are told to...your problem.Oh yah the Quan says ramadan comes after Shaban NOT!!
 I am not a spokesperson for any Solt...I cannot even mention such a lowly thought with my mind and heart that only praises Allah,In case you are in doubt,Allah is the RabbAlamin and not one of your imaginative pagan buddies......The Quran speaks for me..the everlasting messenger..oh yes sorry,you cannot find any hymns for your sun god but you can find the beautiful Al Fatihah FOR ALLAH AND ALLAH ONLY & NOT THE MOON OR THE SUN OR ANY MESSENGER PROPHET....

BTW the night of power or the night journey are past events....why do you even bring that in...let go of the past..

Allah is my guide...The Quran is the only word of God..for some of you, mystically add your own words even they are proven that they do not exist..look the other & do things the devil whispers into your ears. and then go on summoning sungod and stonehenge mystism eew.to smear/block the quranic views. I have never brought extra/pagan materials to support my claims only the quran....

So it has come to this,I have said this to many others and this time to a member of free-minds.org :(Bismillahin Al raman AlRahim) May the curse of Allah be upon the one and the family who is lying....(you and the rest of the non fixed fasting month observers OR whoever can curse me the same) Right now I could not even care about getting banned from this forum by saying these things...I

3:61 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has
come to you, then say: ?Let us call our children and your
children, our women and your women, ourselves and
yourselves, then, let us call out, and we shall make God?s
curse upon the liars.?

11:18 And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about
God? They will be displayed before their Lord, and the
witnesses will say: ?These are the ones who lied about their
Lord.? Alas, God?s curse will be upon the wicked.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 06, 2008, 12:04:40 PM
Woman,you are deranged...Have you forgotten Allah and jumped on board with your imaginary pagan friends? Are you not a little old for imaginary friends.



Why does it have to be like this; why do you have to be uncivil when somebody disagree with you? Is that how Your Lord ordered you to be like?

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 06, 2008, 12:09:54 PM
Peace Farida,

I invited you to a debate by presenting your evidence for the timing based on the great reading, which you claimed to have faith in.
Peace,

Ayman


Civil is what we should be like when debating;

Now here is what Quran says about timing:

Peace Samia,

 هُوَ ٱلَّذِى جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً۬ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورً۬ا وَقَدَّرَهُ ۥ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَ‌ۚ  مَا خَلَقَ ٱللَّهُ ذَٲلِكَ إِلَّا بِٱلۡحَقِّ‌ۚ يُفَصِّلُ ٱلۡأَيَـٰتِ لِقَوۡمٍ۬ يَعۡلَمُونَ (٥)

 It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light, and measured out stages for it: that ye might know the number of years and the calculation. No wise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand. (5)

Is it not enough for you to understand from the well-established verse that the Moon and its Stages (Full, Crescent) are what Moslems ordered to use to calculate periods of time.

 وَٱلۡقَمَرَ قَدَّرۡنَـٰهُ مَنَازِلَ حَتَّىٰ عَادَ كَٱلۡعُرۡجُونِ ٱلۡقَدِيمِ (٣٩)
And the Moon― We have measured for it stages, till it returns like the old "3rgoon"(39)

MOON Stages is what Submitter Use to Calculate Period of time, Months and years.

Now, if the above is true, how should we calculate?
Well, if we are calculating Moon Cycle, we should count the days from the begining of cycle untill the end.

They ask thee concerning the crescents. Say: they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time for men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper. (2-189)

What is the begining of the Moon Cycle: is it the Waxing crescent or the wining crescent? :confused:
Well, I say the one that marks the begining of the Moon Cycle--the Waxing Crescent.

Peace

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Rajah on September 06, 2008, 12:17:32 PM
God gave me a heart..there is only so much the heart can take. Offtopic:U know the opposite of muslim? It could be very well 'mischief maker'. I never wanted to create mischief. If anyone does not like my views but have thier own and very convinced of it, just say so - say a bye bye in peace..I am full of love...believe me
thank you for asking.Godbless.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 06, 2008, 12:30:24 PM
Salaam members

I hope the attck stops here, and let's discuss calmly, without cursing or silly accusations. We are all here seeking the truth, and should respect each other the way we would like to be respected. Let's not be obliged to block this thread.

Salaam belal

If you have noticed, the first verse speaks of (the moon) not the crescent, and the sun, to know the years and the count...the sun for the years, the moon for the count.
The second verse speaks of crescents: why not just (the crescent) like (the moon)? Because in a moon's cycle there is more than one crescent.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 06, 2008, 12:47:18 PM
Salaam belal

If you have noticed, the first verse speaks of (the moon) not the crescent, and the sun, to know the years and the count...the sun for the years, the moon for the count.
The second verse speaks of crescents: why not just (the crescent) like (the moon)? Because in a moon's cycle there is more than one crescent.

Salam;
Do you want an honst debate? if yes please note the following:

جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً۬ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورً۬ا وَقَدَّرَهُ ۥ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَ‌ۚ  

The Moon is what God is refering to when saying "Wa Kadarho Manazel Le-tarofo Addad elsineen wa-elhesab"

The words wa-Kdarho Manazel, which means Made its Stages only refers to Moon Stages.

 وَٱلۡقَمَرَ قَدَّرۡنَـٰهُ مَنَازِلَ حَتَّىٰ عَادَ كَٱلۡعُرۡجُونِ ٱلۡقَدِيمِ (٣٩)
And the Moon― We have measured for it stages, till it returns like the old "3rgoon"(39)

The Sun does not have stages as the Moon; it is allways Full Sun.


Also, as I told you before, when calculating the Moon Cycle in order to know the Month and year, we should start from the begining of the Cycle (Waxing crescent) till the end of cycle (the other Waxing crescent).; as I would know that the wineing Crecsent is giving me hints the the Moon Cycle is about to end. But if I use it (the wineing Crescent) as a mark of the end of Month, then the month would be 20 days or less; and that will not agree with the verses that says the year has 12 month; nor with the verses that discribs the women period and its relation to one month.

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 06, 2008, 12:47:49 PM
Peace Samia,

If you have noticed, the first verse speaks of (the moon) not the crescent, and the sun, to know the years and the count...the sun for the years, the moon for the count.
The second verse speaks of crescents: why not just (the crescent) like (the moon)? Because in a moon's cycle there is more than one crescent.

Also, please notice that the moon is described as measured in "manazil". From its etymology, I don't think that the word "manajil" simply means stages. NZL also has the connotation of something going down. So the cycle is described as starting with the moon "descending/going down in stages". Of course, it can only "descend" from the full-moon stage.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 06, 2008, 01:02:28 PM
Peace Samia,

Also, please notice that the moon is described as measured in "manazil". From its etymology, I don't think that the word "manajil" simply means stages. NZL also has the connotation of something going down. So the cycle is described as starting with the moon "descending/going down in stages". Of course, it can only "descend" from the full-moon stage.

Peace,

Ayman

 Manazel is Stages; the Stages (cycle) starts from smallest untill its peak and then it will descend to its smallest.
Moreover if you agree that Manazel was refering to Moon, then to calculate the years is by Moon as will. (please note the verse)
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 06, 2008, 01:12:15 PM
Peace Farida,

This is just an empty slogan used by all clueless Sunnis and Shias while they blindly follow like sheep their forefathers. Thus, exactly like them when quizzed on showing how the timing that they follow is based on the great reading, you are conveniently mute. So it is not surprising that you are unable to debate and  of "how your timing is based on the great reading?". I invited you to a debate by presenting your evidence for the timing based on the great reading, which you claimed to have faith in. If you are unable to do it, then your claim just like your slogan is empty and I don't have any time to waste on your nonsense (such as "ramadan is a proper name because Umar is a proper name") especially since my point is already being proven by your hypocrisy.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman,

Br Bilal has been telling you, with evidence from the Quran, how the timing from Quran should be approched yet you shun him and keep promoting your Summer Solstice agenda
If you want to read my views then they are same as those of Belalhammad, so take that as my argument and my evidence for the timing based on the Qur'an.

I follow the Qur'an and this was reavealed to the seal of the prophets Mohammad who established final version of the the deen for us. Many hypocrites since then have been busy distorting the true message and have succeeded in doing so, but they could not change the wording of the Qur'an. Attached to the Qur'an is the month when it was revealed and its has been observed since that time, regardless of what hijri you call. Many many sects with in so called Muslims have two things in common one is the Qur'an and the Ramadhan.
You claim that it is random month so burden of proof is with you.

Quote
you instead make noise with mindless argumentation to evade the question

Is that all you have to say in response to my post above? So you are mute about the Summer Solstice as your origin of faith?
I reiterate the method you are promoting has its origin in pagan traditions and I have proved that to you with evidence and everyone can search under Summer Solstice for the origin of this approach; you can call it mindless.
.... Like other religious groups, Pagans are in awe of the incredible strength of the sun and the divine powers that 'create life'. For Pagans this spoke in the Wheel of the Year is a significant point. The Goddess took over the earth from the horned God at the beginning of spring and she is now at the height of her power and fertility. For some Pagans the Summer Solstice marks the marriage of the God and Goddess and see their union as the force that creates the harvest's fruits



 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 06, 2008, 01:44:19 PM
Woman,you are deranged...Have you forgotten Allah and jumped on board with your imaginary pagan friends? Are you not a little old for imaginary friends.


You praise Sun God, that 's your problem,You deny Allah being the reason behind every phonemenon by calling upon your pagan infested views..How dare you mention a pagan deity!!! Allah says the moon and the sun are for markers and such. My life is dedicated to Allah and that's my problem. You go to the stonehenge and do your dance..I never ever thought about the stone Henge,you did .remember my appraoch has always been polite,you step outa line by calling me 'cult member' or similar degrading mantles, God helpme keep a civil tongue.. For me, It has always been Allah from the day I began my journey. farida,where did you get the idea we worship the sun? How can you stoop so goddamn low to protect your interests and views..Noone else have been so aggressive in defending baseless views yes again Goddamn Baseless views & you have to dig your pagan past and summon the sun-god and the stonehenge to harrass..To Allah all your imaginary monsters are too trivial and will be sqaushed..No 2 members in this forum will agree on everthing......SO LEAVE IT AT THAT...

God willing, I will join any quranic communtiy that i can find no matter how small,how poor and I bet we will not speak of pagan things,You go join the 30 day fast New Moon community-oh yeah you are already in (the biggest and the majority )and it seems you are the spokesperson,all the best,look for a new moon every year (oh dearwhere's the new moon ..where's the new moon..has anybody seen the new moon..boohoohoo i wanna fast and i wanna fast now!!) fast whatever month, be it 28,29,30 or 31 day month you are told to...your problem.Oh yah the Quan says ramadan comes after Shaban NOT!!
 I am not a spokesperson for any Solt...I cannot even mention such a lowly thought with my mind and heart that only praises Allah,In case you are in doubt,Allah is the RabbAlamin and not one of your imaginative pagan buddies......The Quran speaks for me..the everlasting messenger..oh yes sorry,you cannot find any hymns for your sun god but you can find the beautiful Al Fatihah FOR ALLAH AND ALLAH ONLY & NOT THE MOON OR THE SUN OR ANY MESSENGER PROPHET....

BTW the night of power or the night journey are past events....why do you even bring that in...let go of the past..

Allah is my guide...The Quran is the only word of God..for some of you, mystically add your own words even they are proven that they do not exist..look the other & do things the devil whispers into your ears. and then go on summoning sungod and stonehenge mystism eew.to smear/block the quranic views. I have never brought extra/pagan materials to support my claims only the quran....

So it has come to this,I have said this to many others and this time to a member of free-minds.org :(Bismillahin Al raman AlRahim) May the curse of Allah be upon the one and the family who is lying....(you and the rest of the non fixed fasting month observers OR whoever can curse me the same) Right now I could not even care about getting banned from this forum by saying these things...I

3:61 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has
come to you, then say: ?Let us call our children and your
children, our women and your women, ourselves and
yourselves, then, let us call out, and we shall make God?s
curse upon the liars.?

11:18 And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about
God? They will be displayed before their Lord, and the
witnesses will say: ?These are the ones who lied about their
Lord.? Alas, God?s curse will be upon the wicked.

Salaam Rajah

Calm down I apologise for sounding harsh and I can understand that, to a believer like you, my post was a shock but I had to write that to save my brother from getting swayed by the eloquence of Ayman.
Before I say more  I?ll paste for you something from Anders, with whom I disagreed on most issues but I recommend you read this warning:
http://19.org/forum/index.php/t/7268/1240/
Monotheists, in their zeal to profess their monotheism, have a very strong tendency to acknowledge only 2 intelligent parties, man and god. This causes them to think that anything that is too complicated for man to create MUST therefore originate from god.
This is nonsensical, for it over looks the 3rd party known by various names which I shall here refer to as Satan.
Satan is known to be far beyond the intelligence of man, and no one who considers the ongoing suffering on this planet can rationally deny that.
Rationally therefore, we can not conclude without further evidence that something found to be beyond the creative abilities of man must therefore originate from god.It could very well originate from Satan!...............anders
Quote
Instead of reading the quran and giving all of us here a better understanding of each others' views you go search for stonehenge...what.the ???.

It is not enough that we read the Qur'an we must also be aware of what goes on around us and beware of Satan so I would not stop keeping an eye on the pagan traditions and:
Say: "I seek refuge with the Lord of the people,"
The King of the people,"
The god of the people,"
From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,"
Who whispers into the chests of the people."

God bless you
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Rajah on September 06, 2008, 01:50:32 PM
salaam Farida,
It warms my heart to hear your wonderful words. I was not happy about what I did. I apologise if I had hurt your feelings.
Be at peace and God bless you.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 06, 2008, 02:22:09 PM
salaam Farida,
 I apologise if I had hurt your feelings.
Be at peace and God bless you.


Salaam Rajah

No you did not hurt my feelings, in fact I  was pleased to notice a believer shaking with anger at the thought of paganism.

Best regards
 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 06, 2008, 03:02:11 PM
Peace Farida,

If you want to read my views then they are same as those of Belalhammad, so take that as my argument and my evidence for the timing based on the Qur'an.

This is just a lazy excuse. Surely, anyone can do better than having faith in a guy who skips over the word ?sun? in 10:5 and is unable to read 17:12 or other clear signs such as 12:47-49 showing that the year is solar, etc. So don?t expect me to waste my time on a guy who argues for the sake of arguing, can?t read, and makes idiotic claims such as ?Moon, Sun, Stars are all proper names?. I am also not going to waste my time repeating myself to any of his mentally lazy followers who like to use the logical fallacy of appeal to popularity to desperately try to justify fasting a completely random month, a fact which is already proven in my article. Again, if you are sincere about having a debate and finding the truth then you have to let go of all your preconceptions and instead of focusing on me read the great reading and present your own case.

As for using the sun and the moon for timing being pagan, this just demonstrates to which depth you will sink and what lies you will tell to argue for the sake of arguing. It also shows once again your hypocricy since you yourself use the new-moon for timing the fast and the sun to time all your daily and annual activities.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 06, 2008, 04:00:31 PM
Peace Farida,

This is just a lazy excuse. Surely, anyone can do better than having faith in a guy who skips over the word ?sun? in 10:5 and is unable to read 17:12 or other clear signs such as 12:47-49 showing that the year is solar, etc. So don?t expect me to waste my time on a guy who argues for the sake of arguing, can?t read, and makes idiotic claims such as ?Moon, Sun, Stars are all proper names?. 

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman

How arrogant! You say you follow the great reading this is how you speak looking down on others. IS this how you interprete humbleness in your great reading?.

Since this discussion started you have shown no flexibility in your approach, you mock those who have less knowlege than you of the Arabic language and you are pleased with those who agree with you, regardless of their rigid views on other issues, as long as they follow you; that is all that matters.
On many important discussions, I have noticed you conveniently keep out; one example was Al-Araf's view on verbal divorce.  You have put all your effort  into the matter of Ramadan; I can see that you have done lots of hard work and this is now a matter of your ego but I saw nowhere in your article a proof of when the calender was messed up from Summer Solstice to luner appraoch or the Prophet forgot to explain this and left it to you to carry the burden; you only give details that hijri was added. You have given no reason, political or commercial, for the chage you claim " a completely random month".

Quote
I am also not going to waste my time repeating myself to any of his mentally lazy followers who like to use the logical fallacy of appeal to popularity to desperately try to justify fasting a completely random month, a fact which is already proven in my article. Again, if you are sincere about having a debate and finding the truth then you have to let go of all your preconceptions and instead of focusing on me read the great reading and present your own case
I do not want to discuss further with you, unless you explain to me why you base your logic on Summer Solstice? Are you...
Like other religious groups, Pagans are in awe of the incredible strength of the sun and the divine powers that create life. For Pagans this spoke in the Wheel of the Year is a significant point. The Goddess took over the earth from the horned God at the beginning of spring and she is now at the height of her power and fertility. For some Pagans the Summer Solstice marks the marriage of the God and Goddess and see their union as the force that creates the harvest's fruits

I have never claimed to possess greater understanding than you or any one else I believe in my own one to one connection with God and this connection has carried me through. You may call me lazy, but I do not want to rely on your, a mullah or the interpretation of anyone else regarding my faith.

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 06, 2008, 04:18:49 PM
Surely, anyone can do better than having faith in a guy who skips over the word ?sun? in 10:5 and is unable to read 17:12 or other clear signs such as 12:47-49 showing that the year is solar, etc. So don?t expect me to waste my time on a guy who argues for the sake of arguing, can?t read, and makes idiotic claims such as ?Moon, Sun, Stars are all proper names?. I am also not going to waste my time repeating myself to any of his mentally lazy followers who like to use the logical fallacy of appeal to popularity to desperately try to justify fasting a completely random month, a fact which is already proven in my article. Again, if you are sincere about having a debate and finding the truth then you have to let go of all your preconceptions and instead of focusing on me read the great reading and present your own case.


 :rotfl:
You are a Tough Cookie!

If you want to show me you are so good, please answer:

Peace Ayman

To end this, please read the following:

If the following is true:

…and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide a Mercy and Glad Tidings to Muslims. (16-89)

and if the following is true:

And Allah will judge with Truth: but those whom (men) invoke besides Him, will not to judge at all. Verily it is Allah Who hears and sees. (40-20)

And if the following is true:

Whatever it be wherein ye differ, the decision thereof is with Allah: Such is Allah my Lord: in Him I trust, and to Him I turn. (42-10)

Then, proof to me and to all that:

1-The word Rammadan=Heat
2-The word Shahar=Full Moon
3-The Word M3dodat=few or 10 days

From the Quran, as I did prove that they don't from Quran.

Otherwise, you have no Ground in claiming that Shahar Rammadan=Scorching Moon, and we should fast for ten days


Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 06, 2008, 08:14:36 PM
Peace All;

Please understand why Ayman is defending his calender:

http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/year-history.html#SECTION00380000000000000000

And here is its history which shows that it has no religous bases at Mohamed time nor Jesus time nor Moses time:

http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/year-history.html

Now, ask yourself a Question, Why Ayman is doing this?
Peace


Peace Farida,

This is just a lazy excuse. Surely, anyone can do better than having faith in a guy who skips over the word “sun” in 10:5 and is unable to read 17:12 or other clear signs such as 12:47-49 showing that the year is solar, etc.


(Joseph) said: "For seven years shall ye diligently sow as is your wont: and the harvests that ye reap ye shall leave them in the ear― except a little, of which ye shall eat. (12-47) "Then will come after that (period) seven dreadful (years), which will devour what ye shall have laid by in advance for them, (all) except a little which ye shall have (specially) guarded. (12-48) "Then will come after that (period) a year in which the people will have abundant water, and in which they will press (wine and oil)." (12-49)

Now understand what yousuf was refering to, as an Egyption:

The following is a quotation from http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0002061.html
The Egyptian Calendar
The ancient Egyptians used a calendar with 12 months of 30 days each, for a total of 360 days per year. About 4000 B.C. they added five extra days at the end of every year to bring it more into line with the solar year.1 These five days became a festival because it was thought to be unlucky to work during that time.

The Egyptians had calculated that the solar year was actually closer to 3651/4 days, but instead of having a single leap day every four years to account for the fractional day (the way we do now), they let the one-quarter day accumulate. After 1,460 solar years, or four periods of 365 years, 1,461 Egyptian years had passed. This means that as the years passed, the Egyptian months fell out of sync with the seasons, so that the summer months eventually fell during winter. Only once every 1,460 years did their calendar year coincide precisely with the solar year.

In addition to the civic calendar, the Egyptians also had a religious calendar that was based on the 291/2-day lunar cycle and was more closely linked with agricultural cycles and the movements of the stars.

1. The correct figures are lunation: 29 d, 12 h, 44 min, 2.8 sec (29.530585 d); solar year: 365 d, 5 h, 48 min, 46 sec (365.242216 d); 12 lunations: 354 d, 8 h, 48 min, 34 sec (354.3671 d).

in 10:5 and is unable to read 17:12

 وَجَعَلۡنَا ٱلَّيۡلَ وَٱلنَّہَارَ ءَايَتَيۡنِ‌ۖ فَمَحَوۡنَآ ءَايَةَ ٱلَّيۡلِ وَجَعَلۡنَآ ءَايَةَ ٱلنَّہَارِ مُبۡصِرَةً۬ لِّتَبۡتَغُواْ فَضۡلاً۬ مِّن رَّبِّكُمۡ وَلِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَ‌ۚ وَڪُلَّ شَىۡءٍ۬ فَصَّلۡنَـٰهُ تَفۡصِيلاً۬ (١٢)
We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs: the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years: all things have We explained in detail. (17-12)

That is how we calculate the day; it is very clear by the Sun Cycle as I said before. But to calculate the Month, God said to use Moon Cycle and count its days. and to calculate the year is 12 Month.


هُوَ ٱلَّذِى جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً۬ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورً۬ا وَقَدَّرَهُ ۥ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَ‌ۚ مَا خَلَقَ ٱللَّهُ ذَٲلِكَ إِلَّا بِٱلۡحَقِّ‌ۚ يُفَصِّلُ ٱلۡأَيَـٰتِ لِقَوۡمٍ۬ يَعۡلَمُونَ (٥)
It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for it: that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). No wise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand. (10-5)
I hope you can read that the Moon Stages (Full and Crescent) is for calculating the year, and not the Sun (it does not have stages)

Is that all you have as proof to call for 2 Rammadan months and two Night of Measuer?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 06, 2008, 09:43:32 PM
Peace Farida,

Let's focus on what is important and leave aside the idle talk. Here is the most important and constructive thing you said and I commend you on it:

I have never claimed to possess greater understanding than you or any one else I believe in my own one to one connection with God and this connection has carried me through. You may call me lazy, but I do not want to rely on your, a mullah or the interpretation of anyone else regarding my faith.

If you do not want to "rely on me, a mullah or the interpretation of anyone else regarding your faith" then you have got to read the great reading and present your own case. There is no way around it.

Therefore, let's try a different approach going forward instead of you asking me questions and then me answering. If we continue to do this then you would simply continue to not ponder on my answers and ignore them and I would be robbing you of a chance to reach your own understanding and make a one on one connection with the god. So let's try an approach where I only give you a small hint and you research and answer the question yourself. To start with let's use this approach with the 2 questions that you had:

1. Why the summer solstice?

Hint 17:12 and 2:185
Hint use online Classical Arabic dictionary http://www.baheth.info/index.jsp to look up the meaning for key words such as "shahr" and "ramadan" and confirm which meaning best fits in the context given the above passages.

2. What was the motive to mess up the timing of the restriction after the death of the prophet?

Hint 9:36-37, 5:1, 5:94-96.
Also, when you check http://www.baheth.info/index.jsp for the meaning of "ramadan" see how some derived meanings relate to hunting.

Please present your answers when you are ready. If you don't want to present them now then that is fine too and I hope that in the future you will.

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 06, 2008, 11:42:07 PM
Peace all;
Here are some links so you can learn about Summer Solistic

http://www.religioustolerance.org/summer_solstice.htm

http://www.sikhnet.com/people/summer-solstice-2008

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/travel/newsandnotes/article_1713297.php

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/107/story_10796_1.html
Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Sibute on September 07, 2008, 12:31:47 AM
Hey Ayman,
This thread that you posted which reads Hot/Ramadhan is very enlightening although I must say it got washed away by several views through their inconsistent and irrelevant replies .Acceptable also are your views concerning the astro calculations of the movements of the heavenly bodies which conforms with precise modern day calculations done by astro physicists and scientistsand astro researchers.
My question is if the northern summer solstice begins from the prescribe date of around 21st June and therafter the scorching moon avails itself due to movement of the earth relative to the stationary positions of the heavenly bodies will it be possible for the communities along the narrow parallels of the equator observe not one but 2 scorching moons every 6 months when the sun moves up and down between the notherthern and southern  tropics of cancer and capricorn?
Please elaborate as I need to decide when to fast?

Thank you.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 07, 2008, 08:15:51 AM
Peace Sibute,

This thread that you posted which reads Hot/Ramadhan is very enlightening although I must say it got washed away by several views through their inconsistent and irrelevant replies .Acceptable also are your views concerning the astro calculations of the movements of the heavenly bodies which conforms with precise modern day calculations done by astro physicists and scientistsand astro researchers.

Thank you for your kind comments. What is amazing is that with all the advancements and precise calculations in modern astronomy, no scientist or astro physicist has proposed a simple and fool proof method of intercalation to use lunar months with a solar year. In one sentence in 9:36 the god tells us that we simply have to count exactly 12 full-moons in every single year. This means that we would skip counting the 13th full-moon that we get every three years. This is the most simple and elegant solution and it is amazing that no one has put it in such simple terms even with all the advancements in astronomy.

My question is if the northern summer solstice begins from the prescribe date of around 21st June and therafter the scorching moon avails itself due to movement of the earth relative to the stationary positions of the heavenly bodies will it be possible for the communities along the narrow parallels of the equator observe not one but 2 scorching moons every 6 months when the sun moves up and down between the notherthern and southern  tropics of cancer and capricorn?
Please elaborate as I need to decide when to fast?

If you are nearer to the tropic of cancer then the scorching full moon would be with the northern hemisphere. If you are nearer to the tropic of capricon then the scorching full moon would be with the southern hemisphere. I think that if you are exactly on the equator then you have the choice to fast either with the northern or the southern hemispheres.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 07, 2008, 04:57:20 PM
[

1. Why the summer solstice?

Hint 17:12 and 2:185
Hint use online Classical Arabic dictionary http://www.baheth.info/index.jsp to look up the meaning for key words such as "shahr" and "ramadan" and confirm which meaning best fits in the context given the above passages.

2. What was the motive to mess up the timing of the restriction after the death of the prophet?

Hint 9:36-37, 5:1, 5:94-96.
Also, when you check http://www.baheth.info/index.jsp for the meaning of "ramadan" see how some derived meanings relate to hunting.

Please present your answers when you are ready. If you don't want to present them now then that is fine too and I hope that in the future you will.

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman


Salaam Ayman

Thank you for the hints above, today I sat down and read again the debate in this thread  between you Marie and Zenje and others. Before I started reading I made sure I do not have any preconceived notions and I also read the hints u recommended and it is very convincing, but there comes a point where all the eloquence of that discussion fades away and very valid questions from the Qur?an come to mind. 
Here is what you said earlier:
Quote
This is why the passage says "whoever amongst you witnessed". Implied in this is that some amongst you would not witness this cosmic phenomenon but fasting is only obligated on those who did.

a-I beleive there is deeper meaining in 'those amongst you who witnessed?.

My questions to you is if what you say above is ture than this verse gives me freedom not to fast, just as a blind person is exempted.
The verse only says ?those amongst you who witnessed?; there is no command that I should make any effort to witness:  Let?s say I was too busy or preferred blogging on my computer and did not go out to witness the scorching moon; in that case I would not be obliged to fast and could get away with no fasting.

b- I see that you carry the image of the scorching full moon on your avatar as you reminded me:

Quote
As for an online sighting of the scorching full moon, look at my avatar on the left side of your screen.

You seem to hold the sighting  of this event as an important part of belief, whereas nowhere in the Quran are we asked to make any effort to witness it. I am sorry I'm not accusing you of anything but the importance you give to seeing this cosmic phenomenon is similar to these:

More than 30,000 summer solstice revellers refused to let a chilly, wet morning dampen their spirits as they welcomed the longest day of the year.
 The solstice, also known as the pagan festival of Litha, attracts people from across the country and has been celebrated for centuries.
Stonehenge was constructed so the rising sun only reached the middle of the stones for just one day of the year.
Pagans believe the summer solstice marks the marriage between the sun and the earth. In astronomical terms, it marks the day when the planet is most tilted towards the sun and produces the longest period of daylight of the year in the northern hemisphere


I am here to learn and would be looking forward to your convincing evidence to my points above and would welcome any frank discussion.

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 07, 2008, 05:16:41 PM
Peace Samia,

Also, please notice that the moon is described as measured in "manazil". From its etymology, I don't think that the word "manajil" simply means stages. NZL also has the connotation of something going down. So the cycle is described as starting with the moon "descending/going down in stages". Of course, it can only "descend" from the full-moon stage.

Peace,

Ayman

And
I still do not know how to properly use the dictionary you suggested bur  I understand "manajil"  means stages towards a goal/ ascending/ stages towards a manjil.
Please correct me if I am wrong I welcome contribution from everyone here.
 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 07, 2008, 07:47:36 PM
Peace all,

Another point I would like to share with you; The following is a Quotion from Ayman 4 years ago
Sister, you ignore that you are starting to count 4 "periods" from "ramadan", so according to you the hunting restriction is early fall-winter. Where I am in the Northern Hemisphere, fall is deer hunting season because that is when they are the most plentiful. Hence, your preservation of land-game argument is not factual.


As you can note Rammadan is the begining of 4 restricted Months. Thus according to Ayman, if Rammadan Moon starts in June 15 (solistic Moon), then the end of the 4 restricted Months would be in about October 15. In this time according to Ayman would be Fall time.

Now let us explore the following



بَرَآءَةٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِۦۤ إِلَى ٱلَّذِينَ عَـٰهَدتُّم مِّنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ (١) فَسِيحُواْ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ أَرۡبَعَةَ أَشۡہُرٍ۬ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّكُمۡ غَيۡرُ مُعۡجِزِى ٱللَّهِ‌ۙ وَأَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مُخۡزِى ٱلۡكَـٰفِرِينَ (٢) وَأَذَٲنٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِۦۤ إِلَى ٱلنَّاسِ يَوۡمَ ٱلۡحَجِّ ٱلۡأَڪۡبَرِ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ بَرِىٓءٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ‌ۙ وَرَسُولُهُ ۥ‌ۚ فَإِن تُبۡتُمۡ فَهُوَ خَيۡرٌ۬ لَّڪُمۡ‌ۖ وَإِن تَوَلَّيۡتُمۡ فَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّكُمۡ غَيۡرُ مُعۡجِزِى ٱللَّهِ‌ۗ وَبَشِّرِ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ (٣) إِلَّا ٱلَّذِينَ عَـٰهَدتُّم مِّنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ ثُمَّ لَمۡ يَنقُصُوكُمۡ شَيۡـًٔ۬ا وَلَمۡ يُظَـٰهِرُواْ عَلَيۡكُمۡ أَحَدً۬ا فَأَتِمُّوٓاْ إِلَيۡهِمۡ عَهۡدَهُمۡ إِلَىٰ مُدَّتِہِمۡ‌ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يُحِبُّ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٤) فَإِذَا ٱنسَلَخَ ٱلۡأَشۡہُرُ ٱلۡحُرُمُ فَٱقۡتُلُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ حَيۡثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمۡ وَخُذُوهُمۡ وَٱحۡصُرُوهُمۡ وَٱقۡعُدُواْ لَهُمۡ ڪُلَّ مَرۡصَدٍ۬‌ۚ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَءَاتَوُاْ ٱلزَّڪَوٰةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمۡ‌ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ غَفُورٌ۬ رَّحِيمٌ۬ (٥)



A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger to those of the pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances.― (1) Go ye, then for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. (2) And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage― that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the pagans. If, then ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (3) (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those pagans with whom Ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. (4) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (9-5)

As you can note the war would start after October 15--Fall Time and not in the heat of Summer time.

Now read the following, from the same Chapter:

فَرِحَ ٱلۡمُخَلَّفُونَ بِمَقۡعَدِهِمۡ خِلَـٰفَ رَسُولِ ٱللَّهِ وَكَرِهُوٓاْ أَن يُجَـٰهِدُواْ بِأَمۡوَٲلِهِمۡ وَأَنفُسِہِمۡ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ وَقَالُواْ لَا تَنفِرُواْ فِى ٱلۡحَرِّ‌ۗ قُلۡ نَارُ جَهَنَّمَ أَشَدُّ حَرًّ۬ا‌ۚ لَّوۡ كَانُواْ يَفۡقَهُونَ (٨١)

 Those who were left behind rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight with their goods and their persons, in the Cause of Allah: they said "Go not forth in the heat. Say "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand! (9-81)

Now is the period after October 15 Hot or should be...Mild or Cold? Or Maybe it was Global Warming?  :confused:

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 07, 2008, 07:53:42 PM
manzil means stage like mawqi3 or even mawqif means situation. waqa3 is to fall and mawqi3 is the point where something lands/falls/happens at any given time. This is how manzil is used, as nazala means to descend like waqa3 is to fall (down) or happen. waqafa means to stop, so mawqif is where something stops at any given time. It's like asking someone how is this exact moment, as if you stopped in time and place.  Manzil also means house/home the concept being the place you descend on (constantly). Arabic is flowery like that and very imaginative (and sometimes too specific) in its concepts. Don't blame me. I actually happen to like that about it. Makes it easy to relate to coming from a more imaginative dialect of English and having learned other languages, which involves imagining concepts differently as other languages do. Especially the languages more invovled with latin that have latin based cognates with sometimes all together different meanings. For instance mirar in portuguese is to aim where it's is to look in Spanish. Mirror obviously shares a similar root. I could go on and on. So I find Classical Arabic concepts (even in dialects) very interesting. Even how alot of dialect words were corrupted from Classical is interesting. That's enough from me. You guys can keep on arguing.

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 07, 2008, 08:24:43 PM
Peace Farida,

Thank you for the hints above, today I sat down and read again the debate in this thread  between you Marie and Zenje and others. Before I started reading I made sure I do not have any preconceived notions and I also read the hints u recommended and it is very convincing, but there comes a point where all the eloquence of that discussion fades away and very valid questions from the Qur?an come to mind. 
Here is what you said earlier:
a-I beleive there is deeper meaining in 'those amongst you who witnessed?.
My questions to you is if what you say above is ture than this verse gives me freedom not to fast, just as a blind person is exempted.
The verse only says ?those amongst you who witnessed?; there is no command that I should make any effort to witness:  Let?s say I was too busy or preferred blogging on my computer and did not go out to witness the scorching moon; in that case I would not be obliged to fast and could get away with no fasting.

Exactly, this is what the verse says. We have been taught otherwise by the Mullahs. Since I was in elementary school we were told that someone who doesn't fast would roast in hell. This is no where mentioned in the great reading. In fact, we are told that even those who can do it but with difficulty (yatiqunuh) should feed a poor person instead. We should fast because it is better for us if we knew. There is no punishment for not fasting. There is nothing to "get away" from.

This is why you and others here who have not witnessed the scorching full-moon last July are exempt from fasting. The only problem occurs when people say "the god told us to fast now" but they have no proof from the great reading for such claim. The problem is not that they didn't fast during the proper time. The problem is that they are saying something about the god which is not true.

b- I see that you carry the image of the scorching full moon on your avatar as you reminded me:
You seem to hold the sighting  of this event as an important part of belief, whereas nowhere in the Quran are we asked to make any effort to witness it. I am sorry I'm not accusing you of anything but the importance you give to seeing this cosmic phenomenon is similar to these:
More than 30,000 summer solstice revellers refused to let a chilly, wet morning dampen their spirits as they welcomed the longest day of the year.
 The solstice, also known as the pagan festival of Litha, attracts people from across the country and has been celebrated for centuries.
Stonehenge was constructed so the rising sun only reached the middle of the stones for just one day of the year.
Pagans believe the summer solstice marks the marriage between the sun and the earth. In astronomical terms, it marks the day when the planet is most tilted towards the sun and produces the longest period of daylight of the year in the northern hemisphere

I am here to learn and would be looking forward to your convincing evidence to my points above and would welcome any frank discussion.

As you noticed after pondering on the great reading, we are not compulsed to witness the scorching full-moon or even fast. But it is better for us if we knew. So we should try to do it but there is no punishment or we are not going to go to hell if we don't.

There is nothing in the great reading that tells us that we should witness the summer solstice. The summer solstice can be calculated years in advance as per 17:12. The same goes for the sun and moon cycles. The only time witnessing is required it is only the scorching full-moon and it is only for the purpose of fasting. Notice that 10:5 doesn't say to witness the sun or the moon to know the number of years. In fact both 17:12 and 10:5 refer to the cycles as ways to teach us "calculation".

So back to the solstice. As you noticed, in 17:12 we are told that daylight and night are used to know the number of years. Since "daylight and night" are the function of the sun and not the moon so according to 17:12 the year is certainly solar. How do we use "daylight and night" to determine the number of years? The only way to use "daylight and night" to determine the year is to look at the interval between two consecutive shortest daylight/longest night (winter solstice) or two consecutive shortest night/longest daylight (summer solstice). Of course the etymology of "shahr ramadan" points to the red moon after the summer solstice.

As you saw from the passage of the great reading, the restriction is about hunting and the Arabs changed the calendar to violate the hunting restrictions. Interestingly "taramad", one of the derivatives "rmd/ramadan" is used to describe a mehtod of hunting where the hunters chase a wild animal in the time of heat in the hot desert until its legs are burned and it falls to the ground for an easy catch. Basically, in the hot time of the year, the Arabs favorite sport was this inhumane way of hunting. Moreover, this time is when young animals have just been born. Of course, those young and inexperienced animals would have been easy prey for this cruel method of hunting. Animals also would have been easy to catch because they get very thirsty in the summer. All that a hunter has to do is wait by the water hole. A young animal or a mother who is extremely thirsty from the heat would be very easy catch even without a weapon. Notice that in 5:94, it is said that the god would test the believers with wild game that can be easily reached with their hands and spears.


And
I still do not know how to properly use the dictionary you suggested bur  I understand "manajil"  means stages towards a goal/ ascending/ stages towards a manjil.
Please correct me if I am wrong I welcome contribution from everyone here.

I would also like to hear the opinion of others such as sister Samia. When we look as all the occurrences and derivatives on NZL in the great reading, we see that it has to do with "descending" so when it refers to stages I believe that the connotation is not just any "stage" but specifically "descending stages". Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 07, 2008, 08:38:50 PM


There is no punishment for not fasting. But there is a reward for it.

However,the believers are ordered the fasting, therefore, not fasting without valid reason or to not redeem is disobedience to The God.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Sibute on September 07, 2008, 09:17:41 PM
Hi,
Quote
However,the believers are ordered the fasting, therefore, not fasting without valid reason or to not redeem is disobedience to The God
is this a whimsical statement without proofs or quotes from any reliable source? :yeah:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 07, 2008, 09:28:06 PM
Hi,is this a whimsical statement without proofs or quotes from any reliable source? :yeah:

 :P

2:183 o you who have believed, you are ordered to fast as those before you were, it could be that you fear and obey ( God ). P

:eat:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 07, 2008, 09:37:28 PM
Peace Farida,

Exactly, this is what the verse says. We have been taught otherwise by the Mullahs. Since I was in elementary school we were told that someone who doesn't fast would roast in hell. This is no where mentioned in the great reading. In fact, we are told that even those who can do it but with difficulty (yatiqunuh) should feed a poor person instead. We should fast because it is better for us if we knew. There is no punishment for not fasting. There is nothing to "get away" from.
........

.........
I would also like to hear the opinion of others such as sister Samia. When we look as all the occurrences and derivatives on NZL in the great reading, we see that it has to do with "descending" so when it refers to stages I believe that the connotation is not just any "stage" but specifically "descending stages". Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace  Ayman

Its  early morning here and I couldn?t  help checking for your response.

For now I would say this much; Please do not respond to my valid concern like  a politician, I have seen enough of Bush and Tony Blair evading the answer and diverting attention.

I look expect more from the one who believes in the great reading (which should also including points raised today by Bilalhamad above)

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 07, 2008, 09:40:00 PM

There is no punishment for not fasting. But there is a reward for it.



Salaam anthonywallace

And what about a blind person who is barred from receiving such a reward ???

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 07, 2008, 09:45:52 PM
Peace Farida,

For now I would say this much; Please do not respond to my valid concern like  a plitician, I have seen enough of Bush and Tony Blair evading the answer and diverting attention.

Now you hurt my feelings putting me in the same sentence as those clowns.   ;)

Peace Farida,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 07, 2008, 09:47:41 PM
Salaam anthonywallace

And what about a blind person who is barred from receiving such a reward ???

 :peace:

 ???
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 07, 2008, 09:49:13 PM
Peace Farida,

And what about a blind person who is barred from receiving such a reward ???

You are the only one here barring them. What do you have against blind people?    :)

They are certainly not barred but they are not obligated to fast. I hope that you can see the difference.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 08, 2008, 01:08:20 PM
Peace Farida,
As you noticed after pondering on the great reading, we are not compulsed to witness the scorching full-moon or even fast. But it is better for us if we knew. So we should try to do it but there is no punishment or we are not going to go to hell if we don't.

There is nothing in the great reading that tells us that we should witness the summer solstice. The summer solstice can be calculated years in advance as per 17:12. The same goes for the sun and moon cycles. The only time witnessing is required it is only the scorching full-moon and it is only for the purpose of fasting. Notice that 10:5 doesn't say to witness the sun or the moon to know the number of years. In fact both 17:12 and 10:5 refer to the cycles as ways to teach us "calculation".
This is why you and others here who have not witnessed the scorching full-moon last July are exempt from fasting. The only problem occurs when people say "the god told us to fast now" but they have no proof from the great reading for such claim. The problem is not that they didn't fast during the proper time. The problem is that they are saying something about the god which is not true.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman,

I did not mention any punishment and this was not part of my question it will only divert attention from my concern.
The purpose of fasting:
2-183    O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqoon

Does that mean that there is no obligation on the blinds to work towards becoming Al-Muttaqoon are they born Muttaqeen due to having no sight ?
OR
There is an obligation to fast on those who have sight and who happen to witness scorching moon and thus need to become Muttaqeen?  Some people associate fasting with punishment so are they in fact punished for witnessing this event ???

Quote

So back to the solstice. As you noticed, in 17:12 we are told that daylight and night are used to know the number of years. Since "daylight and night" are the function of the sun and not the moon so according to 17:12 the year is certainly solar. How do we use "daylight and night" to determine the number of years? The only way to use "daylight and night" to determine the year is to look at the interval between two consecutive shortest daylight/longest night (winter solstice) or two consecutive shortest night/longest daylight (summer solstice). Of course the etymology of "shahr ramadan" points to the red moon after the summer solstice.

As you saw from the passage of the great reading, the restriction is about hunting and the Arabs changed the calendar to violate the hunting restrictions. Interestingly "taramad", one of the derivatives "rmd/ramadan" is used to describe a mehtod of hunting where the hunters chase a wild animal in the time of heat in the hot desert until its legs are burned and it falls to the ground for an easy catch. Basically, in the hot time of the year, the Arabs favorite sport was this inhumane way of hunting. Moreover, this time is when young animals have just been born. Of course, those young and inexperienced animals would have been easy prey for this cruel method of hunting. Animals also would have been easy to catch because they get very thirsty in the summer. All that a hunter has to do is wait by the water hole. A young animal or a mother who is extremely thirsty from the heat would be very easy catch even without a weapon. Notice that in 5:94, it is said that the god would test the believers with wild game that can be easily reached with their hands and spears.

Thank you for explaining this; as I said in my post no 29 in this thread that
... I am pretty sure that others too have, in the past, played their part in switching the months, but that does not mean I accept Ayman's version.

I would rather keep fasting in a random month than ending up like the Christians: http://www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta
A linguistic puzzle.
The rebirth of the sun.
The birth of the Son.
Christmas was transplanted onto the winter solstice, some 1,600 years ago, centuries before the English language emerged from its Germanic roots. Is that why we came to express these two ideas in words that sound so similar?


Quote
Notice that 10:5 doesn't say to witness the sun or the moon to know the number of years. In fact both 17:12 and 10:5 refer to the cycles as ways to teach us "calculation".

If what you say is meant by the surah 17:12... surely in the Dome of the Rock sits Makaam-e- Ibrahim  and the  passage of light over the rock should confirm this . I have watched a  programme about  rays from the sun falling on those rocks.. Do You have any evidence that the rocks in the Dome of the Rock are aligned with the solstices and equinoxes,  I think this could be the way to solve this puzzle as:
An utterly astounding array of ancient cultures built their greatest architectures -- tombs, temples, cairns and sacred observatories -- so that they aligned with the solstices and equinoxes. Many of us know that Stonehenge is a perfect marker of both solstices
http://www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta :

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 08, 2008, 01:11:54 PM
Peace Farida,

Now you hurt my feelings putting me in the same sentence as those clowns.   ;)

Peace Farida,

Ayman


They are not clowns, one avoids straight answers by acting like a clown and the other displays excellent lawyer skills when it comes to playing with words.
Up and coming Obama is good with words too :'(

Quote
I would also like to hear the opinion of others such as sister Samia. When we look as all the occurrences and derivatives on NZL in the great reading, we see that it has to do with "descending" so when it refers to stages I believe that the connotation is not just any "stage" but specifically "descending stages". Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".

I :hmm Zl is common in  both ?Mana ? ZL?  and  N-ZL.
Is it same ZL as in  ZLIL ?
Samia, Wakas and others we need your help

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 08, 2008, 01:37:03 PM
Peace Frida and All;

Ayman is avoiding to answer my point; as you can note, Summer was after the 4 restricted Month (9-81). in other words, Rammadan had to be 4 month before summer time, and cann't fall in June 15.
If Ayman does not answer, then, I will understand that Ayman is deliberately trying to lead people Astray.

Peace
Quote from: belalhammad link=topic=9188.msg177136#msg177136
date=1220842056
Peace all,

Another point I would like to share with you; The following is a Quotion from Ayman 4 years ago

Begin Quote
Sister, you ignore that you are starting to count 4 "periods" from "ramadan", so according to you the hunting restriction is early fall-winter. Where I am in the Northern Hemisphere, fall is deer hunting season because that is when they are the most plentiful. Hence, your preservation of land-game argument is not factual.
End Quote

As you can note Rammadan is the begining of 4 restricted Months. Thus according to Ayman, if Rammadan Moon starts in June 15 (solistic Moon), then the end of the 4 restricted Months would be in about October 15. In this time according to Ayman would be Fall time.

Now let us explore the following



بَرَآءَةٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِۦۤ إِلَى ٱلَّذِينَ عَـٰهَدتُّم مِّنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ (١) فَسِيحُواْ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ أَرۡبَعَةَ أَشۡہُرٍ۬ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّكُمۡ غَيۡرُ مُعۡجِزِى ٱللَّهِ‌ۙ وَأَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مُخۡزِى ٱلۡكَـٰفِرِينَ (٢) وَأَذَٲنٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِۦۤ إِلَى ٱلنَّاسِ يَوۡمَ ٱلۡحَجِّ ٱلۡأَڪۡبَرِ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ بَرِىٓءٌ۬ مِّنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ‌ۙ وَرَسُولُهُ ۥ‌ۚ فَإِن تُبۡتُمۡ فَهُوَ خَيۡرٌ۬ لَّڪُمۡ‌ۖ وَإِن تَوَلَّيۡتُمۡ فَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّكُمۡ غَيۡرُ مُعۡجِزِى ٱللَّهِ‌ۗ وَبَشِّرِ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ (٣) إِلَّا ٱلَّذِينَ عَـٰهَدتُّم مِّنَ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ ثُمَّ لَمۡ يَنقُصُوكُمۡ شَيۡـًٔ۬ا وَلَمۡ يُظَـٰهِرُواْ عَلَيۡكُمۡ أَحَدً۬ا فَأَتِمُّوٓاْ إِلَيۡهِمۡ عَهۡدَهُمۡ إِلَىٰ مُدَّتِہِمۡ‌ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يُحِبُّ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٤) فَإِذَا ٱنسَلَخَ ٱلۡأَشۡہُرُ ٱلۡحُرُمُ فَٱقۡتُلُواْ ٱلۡمُشۡرِكِينَ حَيۡثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمۡ وَخُذُوهُمۡ وَٱحۡصُرُوهُمۡ وَٱقۡعُدُواْ لَهُمۡ ڪُلَّ مَرۡصَدٍ۬‌ۚ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَءَاتَوُاْ ٱلزَّڪَوٰةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمۡ‌ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ غَفُورٌ۬ رَّحِيمٌ۬ (٥)



A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger to those of the pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances.― (1) Go ye, then for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. (2) And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage― that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the pagans. If, then ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (3) (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those pagans with whom Ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. (4) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (9-5)

As you can note the war would start after October 15--Fall Time and not in the heat of Summer time.

Now read the following, from the same Chapter:

فَرِحَ ٱلۡمُخَلَّفُونَ بِمَقۡعَدِهِمۡ خِلَـٰفَ رَسُولِ ٱللَّهِ وَكَرِهُوٓاْ أَن يُجَـٰهِدُواْ بِأَمۡوَٲلِهِمۡ وَأَنفُسِہِمۡ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ وَقَالُواْ لَا تَنفِرُواْ فِى ٱلۡحَرِّ‌ۗ قُلۡ نَارُ جَهَنَّمَ أَشَدُّ حَرًّ۬ا‌ۚ لَّوۡ كَانُواْ يَفۡقَهُونَ (٨١)

 Those who were left behind rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight with their goods and their persons, in the Cause of Allah: they said "Go not forth in the heat. Say "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand! (9-81)

Now is the period after October 15 Hot or should be...Mild or Cold? Or Maybe it was Global Warming?  :confused:

Peace

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: mmkhan on September 08, 2008, 02:00:44 PM
Salaamun all,

2-183    O you who believe! Observing As-Saum (the fasting) is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, that you may become Al-Muttaqoon

Does that mean that there is no obligation on the blinds to work towards becoming Al-Muttaqoon are they born Muttaqeen due to having no sight ?
OR
There is an obligation to fast on those who have sight and who happen to witness scorching moon and thus need to become Muttaqeen?  Some people associate fasting with punishment so are they in fact punished for witnessing this event ???

80:1 HE FROWNED and turned away
AAabasa watawalla
عَبَسَ وَتَوَلَّى (80:1)

80:2 because the blind man approached him!
An jaahu alaAAma
أَن جَاءهُ الْأَعْمَى (80:2)

80:3 Yet for all thou didst know, he might perhaps have grown in purity,
Wama yudreeka laAAallahu yazzakka
وَمَا يُدْرِيكَ لَعَلَّهُ يَزَّكَّى (80:3)

80:4 or have been reminded, and helped by this reminder.
Aw yaththakkaru fatanfaAAahu alththikra
أَوْ يَذَّكَّرُ فَتَنفَعَهُ الذِّكْرَى (80:4)

80:5 Now as for him who believes himself to be self-sufficient
Amma mani istaghna
أَمَّا مَنِ اسْتَغْنَى (80:5)

80:6 to him didst thou give thy whole attention,
Faanta lahu tasadda
فَأَنتَ لَهُ تَصَدَّى (80:6)

80:7 although thou art not accountable for his failure to attain to purity;
Wama AAalayka alla yazzakka
وَمَا عَلَيْكَ أَلَّا يَزَّكَّى (80:7)

80:8 but as for him who came unto thee full of eagerness
Waamma man jaaka yasAAa
وَأَمَّا مَن جَاءكَ يَسْعَى (80:8)

80:9 and in awe [of God]
Wahuwa yakhsha
وَهُوَ يَخْشَى (80:9)

But... nothing about Taqwa here  :-[

Regards,
mmKhan
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 08, 2008, 02:09:23 PM
I :hmm Zl is common in  both ?Mana ? ZL?  and  N-ZL.
Is it same ZL as in  ZLIL ?
Samia, Wakas and others we need your help
You forgot the "N"  ;D
The root for both words is "nuun zain laam: NZL"
ZLIL (do you mean thaleel: lowly; humble?) has only the laam in common, so it's not of the same root (first letter is Thaal, not Zain)
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 08, 2008, 02:17:38 PM
Peace Frida and All;

Ayman is avoiding to answer my point; as you can note, Summer was after the 4 restricted Month (9-81). in other words, Rammadan had to be 4 month before summer time, and cann't fall in June 15.
If Ayman does not answer, then, I will understand that Ayman is deliberately trying to lead people Astray.

Peace

Salaam Bilalhammad,

I think, according to Ayman's calculation, Ramadan would always fall after June 21 and you have put June 15 above. Maybe for that reason he is ignoring it.
I am hopeful that, in the interest of removing all doubts, Ayman would address this post of yours.

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 08, 2008, 02:25:24 PM
You forgot the "N"  ;D
The root for both words is "nuun zain laam: NZL"
ZLIL (do you mean thaleel: lowly; humble?) has only the laam in common, so it's not of the same root (first letter is Thaal, not Zain)

Thanks Samia for correcting me but, still could you elaborate Ayman's question;
Quote
Quote
I would also like to hear the opinion of others such as sister Samia. When we look as all the occurrences and derivatives on NZL in the great reading, we see that it has to do with "descending" so when it refers to stages I believe that the connotation is not just any "stage" but specifically "descending stages". Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 08, 2008, 03:00:05 PM
Salaam Bilalhammad,

I think, according to Ayman's calculation, Ramadan would always fall after June 21 and you have put June 15 above. Maybe for that reason he is ignoring it.
I am hopeful that, in the interest of removing all doubts, Ayman would address this post of yours.

 :peace:

Peace,
Let me ask you Question; If Rammadan is the First rectricted month, and it Falls in June 21st; and if the end of the 4 restricted is about October 21, according to Ayman; then, Does verse 9-81 proves that Ayman theory is Wrong?

The Truth is, Rammadan had to be 4 months before Summer time.

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Al Araf on September 08, 2008, 04:03:03 PM
Salam. Because of the large number of people posting, and the various opinions I am addressing everyone in this thread instead of a particular person.

The issue of what and when is shahr ramadan, is a vexing question, and has no consensus amongst Muslims. This is not the only place there is this debate, the issue of when the fast begins and when the fast ends, is also another vexing question with no consensus amongst Muslims.

Because each Muslim has to answer for their own deeds, and not the deeds of others, my first instinct is to advise Muslims to make a determination for themselves as to what shahr ramadan means, and what the black thread of night distinct from the white thread of day means. The reason I say this is because as Muslims we will be judged by our own actions, not by the actions of others.

Of course I know that this will find no satisfaction amongst those Muslims who seek to impose personal concepts on other Muslims. To them I say, remember, if what you insist upon turns out to be wrong, the wrong of what you insisted will be held against you on the day of judgment. For this reason, even if the answer that comes out of the Quran is distasteful to some people, sometimes even to myself, I will share the answer even in the face of a lot of hostility.

When I talk about personal concepts, I am referring to the concepts being insisted upon, like all Muslims should fast at the same time, or all Muslims should pray at the same time. I find there is no clear authority to support the imposition of these concepts. I for one, will not participate in such concepts until I am shown clear authority.

I can cite a clear example of where these concepts produce an irrational result, and because of this I cannot accept these concepts. Take the example of a momin, who lives above the geographical boundary known as the Arctic Circle. In the Arctic Circle one day is six months long, one night is six months long. Should a momin not eat or drink for six months? Should a momin pray only five times in a year? No, obviously not. When these concepts produce irrational results, we have enough sense to go back and figure out what we are supposed to do.

Inshallah Allah will guide all of us.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 08, 2008, 06:16:53 PM
Peace Araf,

The issue of what and when is shahr ramadan, is a vexing question

It is not a vexing question. The answer is right under your nose in the question. Just translate "shahr ramadan" and the question will answer itself.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 08, 2008, 07:04:02 PM
All,

Ayman said:
Quote
Since it is impossible for the moon to go through "descending stages" (or to the point where something descends per Anwar) from anything other than the full-moon, this would indicate that the starting stage is the "full-moon".

I do not agree with this. I do not think that this is the logic behind the etymology of the meaning of 'stages' as it concerns nazala. Despite that we are not dealing with etymology. I was just trying to help people understand the sense behind this meaning and the possible logic for it. manzil means stage, any stage, descending or ascending. As it refers to the moon it includes all its stages before full moon, at full moon and after full moon.

To give a similar word with a somewhat similar concept going on here: Mawqa3 means location as well. It is from the root waqa3 which is to fall literally, and also means to occurr/happen. Now Mawqa3 is not where someone literally falls (although it can mean this). It arrived at that meaning from an archaic usage of the concept 'to fall'. Old English I think makes similar use of the concept to fall for location. Ex. "The old oak tree wilst fall to thy left upon the road hither" It can still be used in today's language albeit rare. Ex. "If you keep going straight the store your're looking for will fall on your left." No literal falling at all. And we need only go to the word 'befall' to see how the concept of falling is also connected to occurrence and happenings. So I hope everyone can see how the concept of to fall or descend doesn't have to be literal or order-oriented as it concerns the use of manzil. In the end no matter how far the meanings may seem to stray from the original root, if there is no evidence that it is a post-quranic meaning (the most obvious being that it is an interpretational meaning given by a post-quranic figure) then the meaning is what it is. Period.

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 08, 2008, 07:49:54 PM
All,

I do not agree with this. I do not think that this is the logic behind the etymology of the meaning of 'stages' as it concerns nazala.

 وَقُل رَّبِّ أَنزِلۡنِى مُنزَلاً۬ مُّبَارَكً۬ا وَأَنتَ خَيۡرُ ٱلۡمُنزِلِينَ (٢٩)

And say: "O my Lord! Enable me to disembark with Thy blessing: for Thou art the Best to enable (us) to disembark." (23-29)

And say: "My Lord! Cause me to land at a blessed landing-place, for You are the Best of those who bring to land." (23-29)

You are right; here God is ordering the prophet to ask for the blessed Rank (Manzilan) because God is the best when rewarding Ranks (kair El-Monzalin) in Heaven (and not the best in lowring and decending the true believers in ranks of Heaven)

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Al Araf on September 08, 2008, 09:55:52 PM
Salam ayman. Simply because you personally believe that translations are a magic incantation whereby everything is solved, does not mean thats is true. Even if we examine your claim, to give you fair hearing on the issue, the phrase "shahr ramadan" gets stuck in the starting gate.

I have seen mutiple translations of the word shahr to begin with, month, period, moon, moon goddess, are some of the ones I have seen. Who is to say which one of these is the right one, I am sure people will choose a different translation for different reasons. The word ramadan is alternately claimed to be a proper noun, a derivative of the word ramd meaning to burn, and even then a dispute arises as to whether ramd means burn, when other words are used for burn in the Quran.

I am sure this will lead to forum members insisting they have the answer and that the other person is wrong based on their own personal education and biases. Some people look only in Arabic dictionaries, some people obssess over diacritical marks, some people go to lexicons, you know the drill as well as I do.

Inshallah keeping an open mind on the subject is the best way to go at this point. Claiming we know what everyone should do is improper on weak grounds such as this. Reasonable observance of fasting is the best course.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 09, 2008, 05:18:40 AM
Every year, a common occurrence is a dispute between followers of various sects about when so-called Ramadan starts and ends. This year is no exception and some countries ended their so-called Ramadan one day before others.
 
In the so-called Islamic calendar the start of Ramadan depends on the sighting of the new crescent moon. The sighting of the new crescent moon is not an easy task and only expert observers under optimal viewing conditions can see the new-moon crescent. Hence, the vast majority of people never sees the new-moon crescent and only sees the 1-2 day old crescent. This difficulty is a major reason for the annual dispute about the timing. What many people don't know is that the start of so-called Ramadan depends on a myriad of other factors other than the sighting of the new-moon crescent.
 
The current so-called Islamic calendar was established during the time of Caliph Omar, long after the death of the prophet and the revelation of the great reading. This is confirmed by archeological evidence from coins and manuscripts of the era. [Please see: Alan Jones, "The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558", in Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.]
 
Interestingly, the word "hijri" doesn't appear on manuscripts until much later so we don't really know what this arbitrary dating of the new era was based on.
 
One of the factors that affects when present-day so-called Ramadan starts depends on when the start of the so-called Islamic calendar was set. For example, had its start been set for three years earlier, then this year the dating of Ramadan would have been a month earlier. As I mentioned above, we know from verifiable archeological evidence that the new calendar was established around 638 AD, long after the prophet's time. Several generations later, a story circulated that Omar decided after consultation with others to make the year of the "hijra" the first date of the new era. So the timing of Ramadan today is dependent not only on the sighting of the new crescent moon but on an arbitrary decision that was made many centuries ago.
 
As a side note, traditionalists also contend that the prophet first started to abstain in the second year after migration/"hijra". So according to them this means that 2:185 was revealed early in Yathrib. The traditionalists contend that Chapter 9 (where they claim there is the alleged calendar modification order) was revealed in the last year of the prophet's life. By holding to this traditional view and backdating the so-called Islamic calendar to the alleged first year of "hijra" sectarians imply that all his life, the prophet abstained on the wrong dates (see Appendix).
 
Another factor that the start of the present so-called Ramadan depends on is the order of the months at the time the new calendar system was adopted. In "pre-quranic" times, the Arabs didn't use a single standard calendar. Arabs used calendars based on 4, 5, and 6-season system. Some "pre-quranic" Arabs used the calendar system of the Persians. Others used the calendar system of the Jews and some used the calendar system of the Romans. The Nabataeans used to align the months with the zodiac and hence some Arabs used the star based calendar system. Rabi3 months etymology denotes grazing in spring and fall. In Arabia the rainy season, which would promote the growth of grasses for grazing, occurs during autumn. This is confirmed by what is known about Arabs using a 6 season system that split fall into Rabi3 Althani (early fall) and Kharif (late fall) prior to the so-called Islamic calendar. In this system each season lasted two months. The new Omar Calendar that we have today has a different order for the months. The arbitrary decision to rearrange the order of the months also affects when the present day so-called Ramadan occurs.
 
Hence, in addition to the sighting of the new crescent moon, we have two other completely arbitrary factors affecting when so-called Ramadan starts. Hence, for all intents and purposes, the current so-called Ramadan is completely arbitrary and it is no different than randomly picking a month for abstaining.  
 
The problem of pinpointing an arbitrary month called Ramadan is the same type of problem that the Jews, Christians, and sectarians face in pinpointing their "holy" days in the arbitrary week. For example, sectarians claim that Friday, which they named Al-Jum3at (as opposed to the common noun "ywm al-jum3at"/time of gathering in the great reading), is a special "holy" day where, according to their traditions, Adam was created. What is hard for many people to understand is that the week is completely arbitrary. Hence, the fact is that the week has not always been seven days. Weeks from 4 to 20 days were observed. For example, the ancient Egyptians used a 10-day week while the Mayans used a 20-day week. The week was typically the interval from one market day to the next. Four to 20 days gave farmers and craftsmen enough time to gather and transport products to sell. Hence, when Friday occurs depends on when the present seven day week was arbitrarily adopted and which day it started with.
 
There is nothing wrong or forbidden with an arbitrary timeframe in itself. The problem is to act as if The God somehow has to conform to the man-made arbitrary timeframes and to say to people that The God ordered you to fast in this or that completely arbitrary timeframe or take that arbitrary day as "holy". Another problem with such arbitrary timeframes is that errors made at the beginning of their adoption are propagated into the future and get larger and larger. This shouldn't be the case because we are not responsible for the errors of those who came before us. Hence, an effective method of specifying a timeframe shouldn't be one that allows such errors to propagate. It should be one that allows those who have faith at any point of time to obey The God's command correctly irrespective of what their predecessors decided to do or not to do. This is impossible with the current so-called Islamic calendar, which as we saw is influenced by decisions made centuries ago. Another problem is that, as we saw earlier, now and in the past people used different calendars, a universal command that is to be understood by everybody would best be based on clear cosmic phenomena and not on man-made calendars.
 
Now that we presented the problem, let's look in the great reading for the solution.


2:183 O you who have believed, you are ordered to fast as those before you were , it could be that you fear and obey ( God).

2:184 (At) certain times ; so whoever of you be ill or on a journey, then finish at differnt times. And concerning those who cannot endure it, you redeem by feeding any (of the) poorest of the poor ; and whoever gives alms volutarily then it is best for him; and it is best that you fast, if you are able.

2:185 The Quran was sent down (in the) hottest month, to guide the people and (to) clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge. So one should fast the entire month, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever be ill or on a journey, then finish on different days . God wants you with flexiblness and not with hardship; and so that you may complete the term, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.


 :eat:


Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 09, 2008, 05:22:27 AM

 :yay: 

Praise be to Allah  :eat:

 8)
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 09, 2008, 05:36:50 AM
Salaam everyone

I have noticed that when anyone asks Ayman a question he comes up with his verdict. This habit goes against the practice of the prophet. From the sample of Qur?an verses below we learn how he replied to concerns raisedonly after seeking guidance from God:

2:189 They ask thee concerning the crescent moons /New Moons/  phases of the moon!. Say: .....
2:215 They ask thee what they should spend (In charity). Say:.....
2:217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited MONTH. Say: " ....
219  They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say
......

Therefore I don't need to remind that for all answers here (unless one's personal opinion) we need to give evidence from the Quran and  on the subject of witnessing Ramadan, please correct me if I am wrong, the verses below confirm that it?s not only eyes  and ears that bear witness, but even one?s skin bears witness.

41:20 At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their SKINs will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.

41:21 They will say to their SKINs: "Why bear ye witness against us?" They will say: "(Allah) hath given us speech,- (He) Who giveth speech to everything: He created you for the first time, and unto Him were ye to return.

41:22 "Ye did not seek to hide yourselves, lest your hearing, your sight, and your SKINs should bear witness against you! But ye did think that Allah knew not many of the things that ye used to do!

I would therefore ask Ayman again: Do you still think there is no obligation on the blind to fast and, if so, where is the evidence for that  ???


All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

 :peace:

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 09, 2008, 05:43:38 AM
 
Performance agreement

Desired Results - ( This is what The God expexts of all the believers  :muscle: )

1. Fast the entire month (of) hottness. 2:184  - 185    :handshake:

Guidelines- ( This is what not to do )  :nope:

(1.)It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.  2:187   :police:

Accountabilities- ( This is the standard performance that is expected of you,how you are to fast, and what you will be held accountable for )

(1.) Eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then complete the fast until night;  2:187    :handshake:  :eat:  :handshake:

         Consequenses   :elektro:  :&  :elektro:

Rewards -  ( These are the benifits of fasting   :yay:)

33:35 Surely, .... the fasting men, and the fasting women,........ God has prepared for them a forgiveness and a great recompense.    :pr  :yay:  :angel:

Punishments -   ( These are the penaltys for not fasting the hottest month  :&)

N/A   :wow    :o    :wow

 :peace:   :jedi:

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 09, 2008, 12:00:05 PM
Peace,

Belal, you used this verse as proof that manzil means any stage. However this word is munzal, and not manzil. Munzal is the verbal noun and place noun for form 4 anzala which is ' to cause to descend.' munzal means either making something descend (inzaal) or a place where something is made to descend (munzal). Manzil is where something descend on it's own. 

Quote
وَقُل رَّبِّ أَنزِلۡنِى مُنزَلاً۬ مُّبَارَكً۬ا وَأَنتَ خَيۡرُ ٱلۡمُنزِلِينَ (٢٩)

Godbless,
Anwar


Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 09, 2008, 12:22:28 PM


48:17 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there on the sick any burden. And whosoever obeys God and His messenger, He will admit them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; and whosoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution

:jedi:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Al Araf on September 09, 2008, 01:04:40 PM
مثلهم كمثل الذي استوقد نارا فلما اضاءت ما حوله ذهب الله بنورهم وتركهمفي ظلمات لا يبصرون
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 09, 2008, 01:06:24 PM
Peace,

I want to respond to this:

Quote
ma3duuda means few; 3adeeda means many. No context would change their meaning.
To those who can read Arabic (cut-and-paste from lisaanul 3arab):

والأَيام المعدودات: أَيامُ التشريق وهي ثلاثة بعد يوم النحر، وأَما الأَيام المعلوماتُ فعشر ذي الحِجة، عُرِّفَتْ تلك بالتقليل لأَنها ثلاثة، وعُرِّفَتْ هذه بالشُّهْرة لأَنها عشرة، وإِنما قُلِّلَ بمعدودة لأَنها نقيض قولك لا تحصى كثرة؛ ومنه وشَرَوْهُ بِثَمَنٍ بَخْسٍ دَراهِمَ معدودة أَي قليلة. قال الزجاج: كل عدد قل أَو كثر فهو معدود، ولكن معدودات أَدل على القِلَّة لأَن كل قليل يجمع بالأَلف والتاء نحو دُرَيْهِماتٍ وحَمَّاماتٍ، وقد يجوز أَن تقع الأَلف والتاء للتكثير.

What I also find interesting in this quote: the phrase about the ten days of Dhul Hijja: [...and this is known by "shuhra" (derived from shahr; my comment) because it is ten (days)]

The first part of this definition is referring to the islamic ritual of Hajj and its names. The first meaning of the phrase al-ayyaamul-ma3doodaatu is a religious meaning connected to hajj rituals. Hence the day of nahr (the day of Immolation or slaughter) done on the 10 of dhul-hijjah. So this meaning is an islamic interpretation of the phrase. At the very least it is a religious pagan Arab interpretation of the phrase. In both cases the phrase DOES have literal meaning outside of these two non-Quranic religious contexts. Notice the religous interpretation of al-ayaam al-ma3loomaat that follows the first definition.

Now if we pay attention to what Zujaaj has to say in this citation he says that ma3dood is a count small or large. But he claims that alif, taa has diminutive properties. He cites durayhimaat (which is strange because durayhim is already the diminutive of dirham, and durayhimaat is plural. My guess is that the word is used exclusively in the meaning of a few small dirhams, exactly equalling daraahima qaleelatun). I'm not sure how Hammaamaat is diminutive.

But he then says that  the alif ta may also be used for takthir, implying plurality.

On that level I would like to say that the dictionary is saying that ma3doodaat can be few (obviosly coming from it's use as numbered, i.e. limited) as well as plural implying many with no particular count involved.

As far as the female plural being used for plural inanimate objects. I'd like to point out that samawaat is referred to as hunna (2:29, and in Iraqi dialect inaminate plurals can still be reffered to as hin or hun, a leftover from Classical Arabic), ayyaam is refered to as ma3loomaat (2:80 is a singular female use and wouldn't fall under the diminutive possibility used in the above definition) and ma3doodaat on more than a few occasions in the Quran. A more nuetral and very common Quranic example is ayaaatun bayyinaatun (2:99).

With that said I'd like to clarify:

1. In classical Arabic feminine plural can be used to describe plural inanimate objects.
2. Ma3dood, Ma3doodah, Ma3doodaaat (and even possibly ma3doodoona or ma3aadid or ma3aadeed) means numbered or counted primarily and literally. But it can take a diminutive meaning of 'few' through its meaning of numbered or limited. A good English example is 'your days are numbered.'
3. Ma3dood in no way ONLY means few.
4. The limitation of time as it concerns Ramadan and pilgrimage depends on the Quranic implication of shahr, and not the other way around.

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 09, 2008, 01:22:27 PM

48:17 There is no burden on the blind, nor is there any burden on the cripple, nor is there on the sick any burden. And whosoever obeys God and His messenger, He will admit them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; and whosoever turns away, He will punish him with a painful retribution

:jedi:

Salaam Anthony and everyone,

Indeed!! As I understand from the verse above, there is no undue expectations on the physically impaired and, performing within their capacity will earn them a reward on par with that of the able.

However the  argument was: ?how can one witness a month?? so it must, here, imply the scorching moon, "shahr ramadan".
As we learn from verses 41:20, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify. 
One can witness a month simply by being present in that month, as the skin is in touch with the atoms/molecules , water vapor mixture of gases,  temperature etc.,  present at such a time. In this world one?s finger prints and DNA can also testify against a person, but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ?I did not witness the month of Ramadan?. His skin will then speak out against him.

b.? those amongst you who witnessed?? exclude only those who are mentally incapacitated.

These verses also made me realise that the deaf, the dumb and the blind are not excluded from testifying. 
How does a deaf or dumb person bear witness?
By the use of eyes and skin, which would include using sign language, as well as employing writing tools. In both cases the skin is used to bear witness. Similarly a deaf person, capable of speaking, may use his sight and his lips/skin .
A blind person can use the skin (to feel with), along with the ears to witness and, regarding the month of Ramadan, a blind person has witnessed it simply by being present in his body, in that month . 

This, in my opinion, is conclusive evidence, but I would welcome any input from others.

Peace,
1. In classical Arabic feminine plural can be used to describe plural inanimate objects.
2. Ma3dood, Ma3doodah, Ma3doodaaat (and even possibly ma3doodoona or ma3aadid or ma3aadeed) means numbered or counted primarily and literally. But it can take a diminutive meaning of 'few' through its meaning of numbered or limited. A good English example is 'your days are numbered.'
3. Ma3dood in no way ONLY means few.
4. The limitation of time as it concerns Ramadan and pilgrimage depends on the Quranic implication of shahr, and not the other way around.

Godbless,
Anwar


I hope we can now look into a timing device, using the sun and the moon, as a next step forward.

 :peace:


Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 09, 2008, 02:49:46 PM
Peace,

Belal, you used this verse as proof that manzil means any stage. However this word is munzal, and not manzil. Munzal is the verbal noun and place noun for form 4 anzala which is ' to cause to descend.' munzal means either making something descend (inzaal) or a place where something is made to descend (munzal). Manzil is where something descend on it's own. 

Godbless,
Anwar


Peace Anwar

How would you translate verse 10-5:

 هُوَ ٱلَّذِى جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً۬ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورً۬ا وَقَدَّرَهُ ۥ مَنَازِلَ  لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَ‌ۚ مَا خَلَقَ ٱللَّهُ ذَٲلِكَ إِلَّا بِٱلۡحَقِّ‌ۚ يُفَصِّلُ ٱلۡأَيَـٰتِ لِقَوۡمٍ۬ يَعۡلَمُونَ (٥)

Thanks


Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Nun de plume on September 09, 2008, 04:32:50 PM
Peace everyone,

2:185 Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it

Which is Ramadan?

Solstice Moon Illusion June 16, 2008 Full Strawberry Moon or Rose Moon

(http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg)


Harvest Moon - September

(http://www.earthsky.org/images/13821.jpg)

This is the full Moon that occurs closest to the autumn equinox. At the peak of harvest, farmers can work late into the night by the light of this Moon.

Hunter's Moon - October

(http://www.nightskyinfo.com/sky_highlights/hunters_moon/full_moon_small.jpg)

With the leaves falling and the deer fattened, it is time to hunt. Since the fields have been reaped, hunters can easily see fox and the animals which have come out to glean.


44:3 ?We descended it in a blessed night

97:1 ?We descended it in night Al-Qadr

97:3 Night Al-Qadr better than a thousand shahr

Better than 1000 full moons or 1000 months?


Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 09, 2008, 05:21:25 PM
Peace Nun,

2:185 Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it
Which is Ramadan?
Solstice Moon Illusion June 16, 2008 Full Strawberry Moon or Rose Moon

Out of all the full-moons that you listed, the solstice moon takes the lowest path accross the horizon and thus has the most vivid reddish color and stays red the longest (thus the name strawberry/rose moon): 

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast14jun_1.htm

There are actually two solstice moons, the one right before the summer solstice and the one right after the summer solstice. So which one is it?

The word "ramadan"/scorching has two connotation: (1) the color red (2) hot. Naturally, the solstice moon after the summer solstice would be the one that best fits those two criteria.

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: rsw on September 09, 2008, 05:25:15 PM
what if it's cloudy?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Nun de plume on September 09, 2008, 11:57:37 PM
Peace rsw,

what if it's cloudy?

Same as if underground or cannot see. None are accountable for circumstances beyond their control.

btw, interesting reading your story in the other thread.


Peace Ayman,

Out of all the full-moons that you listed, the solstice moon takes the lowest path accross the horizon and thus has the most vivid reddish color and stays red the longest (thus the name strawberry/rose moon): 

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast14jun_1.htm

There are actually two solstice moons, the one right before the summer solstice and the one right after the summer solstice. So which one is it?

The word "ramadan"/scorching has two connotation: (1) the color red (2) hot. Naturally, the solstice moon after the summer solstice would be the one that best fits those two criteria.

Yes when I first saw the huge moon it freaked me out; thought it was going to crash into earth.  :o

Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ? July 2008

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2008&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1


June 21 2008 Begins Summer in the Northern Hemisphere

Next full moon occurred 30 days later in day time...

Date   Illuminated   Phase
                     
Jul 16, 2008      97.8%   
Jul 17, 2008                  
Jul 18, 2008      99.8%   Full at 10:59 AM
Jul 19, 2008      99.7%   
Jul 20, 2008      97.4%
   

How do we witness which night/day is Ramadan?

Also, its clear Quran was sent in a night 97:1 ?

97:3 the night Al-Qadr better than a thousand shahr

Was that ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots witnessed?

Or

Better than a thousand months (i.e. lunar cycles x 1000 = 80.852076 years or lifetime witnessed)?

These Google algorithms are smart.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1C1GGLS_en-USUS291&q=lunar+cycles+x+1000&btnG=Search

Peace

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Nun de plume on September 10, 2008, 02:14:17 AM
Peace Ayman,

To clarify a bit on the first question...

Next full moon occurred 30 days later in day time...

Date   Illuminated   Phase
                     
Jul 16, 2008      97.8%   
Jul 17, 2008                  
Jul 18, 2008      99.8%   Full at 10:59 AM
Jul 19, 2008      99.7%   
Jul 20, 2008      97.4%
   

How do we witness/know which of the four phases is full moon?


(http://s4.tinypic.com/24faadt.jpg)

Learning Things
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5riBjv3MZyU

Peace

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: adjwi on September 10, 2008, 06:57:23 AM
Peace all,

                  

How do we witness/know which of the four phases is full moon?



Some time ago I noticed that the full moon rose after the sun set. I didn'it verify the illumination percentage but my hunch would be that the full moon with the highest percentage of illumination would be the night it rose after the sunset.

adjwi
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 10, 2008, 07:32:00 AM

I just got a ? (2)

Is this the month OF hotness or not?

In other words, is this the moon of redness or not?

iN OTHER WORDS IS IT THE THE TIME OF FASTING OR NOT?





Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Nun de plume on September 10, 2008, 08:41:31 AM
Peace adjwi,

Some time ago I noticed that the full moon rose after the sun set. I didn'it verify the illumination percentage but my hunch would be that the full moon with the highest percentage of illumination would be the night it rose after the sunset.

adjwi

Use link below and check the full moon for your area after June 21st and notice sometimes they appear in the daytime and varying hours as well.

Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ? July 2008

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2008&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
Jul 16, 2008      97.8%   
Jul 17, 2008                 
Jul 18, 2008      99.8%   Full at 10:59 AM
Jul 19, 2008      99.7%   


Take a look at the picture I posted earlier and imagine walking outside seeing each of those four moons individually (don't have luxury to compare next to each other) -- how would be able to tell which is the full moon with less than .3% Illuminated Phase difference?

The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) stands out as does waning crescent C...

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3226/2472224091_c9637ac4f8.jpg?v=0)



I just got a ? (2)

Is this the month OF hotness or not?

In other words, is this the moon of redness or not?

iN OTHER WORDS IS IT THE THE TIME OF FASTING OR NOT?


We're getting there anthony.

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: mmkhan on September 10, 2008, 08:46:10 AM
Salaaman Anthoney,

What???  ???

I just got a ? (2)

Is this the month OF hotness or not?

In other words, is this the moon of redness or not?

iN OTHER WORDS IS IT THE THE TIME OF FASTING OR NOT?

You said you got "a" ?
Then you extended to (2)
And finally asked THREE

 :laugh:

Regards,
mmKhan
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 10, 2008, 08:59:19 AM
Salaaman Anthoney,

What???  ???

You said you got "a" ?
Then you extended to (2)
And finally asked THREE

 :laugh:

Regards,
mmKhan


 :laugh:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 10, 2008, 10:15:58 AM
Belal,

Manaazil like you have in this quote:


 
Quote
هُوَ ٱلَّذِى جَعَلَ ٱلشَّمۡسَ ضِيَآءً۬ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ نُورً۬ا وَقَدَّرَهُ ۥ مَنَازِلَ لِتَعۡلَمُواْ عَدَدَ ٱلسِّنِينَ وَٱلۡحِسَابَ‌ۚ مَا خَلَقَ ٱللَّهُ ذَٲلِكَ إِلَّا بِٱلۡحَقِّ‌ۚ يُفَصِّلُ ٱلۡأَيَـٰتِ لِقَوۡمٍ۬ يَعۡلَمُونَ (٥


Does mean stages. It is the plural of manzil.

But the quote before: 
Quote
وَقُل رَّبِّ أَنزِلۡنِى مُنزَلاً۬ مُّبَارَكً۬ا وَأَنتَ خَيۡرُ ٱلۡمُنزِلِينَ

Is singular munzal and it means what i said before.


Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 10, 2008, 01:49:00 PM
Peace Frida and All;

Ayman is avoiding to answer my point; as you can note, Summer was after the 4 restricted Month (9-81). in other words, Rammadan had to be 4 month before summer time, and cann't fall in June 15.
If Ayman does not answer, then, I will understand that Ayman is deliberately trying to lead people Astray.

Peace

Salaam Belalhammad

I had time to understand the relevance of 9:1-5 and 81 last night :
Free_Minds:
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and honor the connection, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving,

9:5 tells us that? when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill....?

Hence , 4 months later, when the war was going on as in:
Free_Minds:
9:81 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say: "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.

..... : "Do not mobilize in the heat."  confirms that fighting was indeed engaged during the hot season.

Applying Ayman?s theory:

The hot months in Arabia should stretch from May to August, which means that Ramadan must have occurred sometime in April/May according to the verses above.
So Ramadan was not in the month of extreme heat, if we believe Ayman?s theory that the sacred months follow Ramadan and than apply the evidence from the Qur'an...a contradiction here!!!

As nun de plume wrote earlier, we are getting there. Alhumdullilah, with the combined effort of everyone here, we are getting to the root question Hot/Ramadan or The Month of Ramadan. I would suggest we all do our own verification by looking into.9:1-5 and 81

3:61 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then say: "Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us call out, and we shall make God's curse upon the liars."

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: afridi220 on September 10, 2008, 02:26:01 PM
Salaam Belalhammad

I had time to understand the relevance of 9:1-5 and 81 last night :
Free_Minds:
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and honor the connection, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving,

9:5 tells us that? when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill....?

Hence , 4 months later, when the war was going on as in:
Free_Minds:
9:81 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say: "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.

..... : "Do not mobilize in the heat."  confirms that fighting was indeed engaged during the hot season.

Applying Ayman?s theory:

The hot months in Arabia should stretch from May to August, which means that Ramadan must have occurred sometime in April/May according to the verses above.
So Ramadan was not in the month of extreme heat, if we believe Ayman?s theory that the sacred months follow Ramadan and than apply the evidence from the Qur'an...a contradiction here!!!



Salam

Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 12:30 PM till 4:30 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 10, 2008, 02:47:02 PM
Peace all,

Ayman said:
I do not agree with this. I do not think that this is the logic behind the etymology of the meaning of 'stages' as it concerns nazala. Despite that we are not dealing with etymology. I was just trying to help people understand the sense behind this meaning and the possible logic for it. manzil means stage, any stage, descending or ascending. As it refers to the moon it includes all its stages before full moon, at full moon and after full moon.
To give a similar word with a somewhat similar concept going on here: Mawqa3 means location as well. It is from the root waqa3 which is to fall literally, and also means to occurr/happen. Now Mawqa3 is not where someone literally falls (although it can mean this). It arrived at that meaning from an archaic usage of the concept 'to fall'. Old English I think makes similar use of the concept to fall for location. Ex. "The old oak tree wilst fall to thy left upon the road hither" It can still be used in today's language albeit rare. Ex. "If you keep going straight the store your're looking for will fall on your left." No literal falling at all. And we need only go to the word 'befall' to see how the concept of falling is also connected to occurrence and happenings. So I hope everyone can see how the concept of to fall or descend doesn't have to be literal or order-oriented as it concerns the use of manzil. In the end no matter how far the meanings may seem to stray from the original root, if there is no evidence that it is a post-quranic meaning (the most obvious being that it is an interpretational meaning given by a post-quranic figure) then the meaning is what it is. Period.

This is false. Idiomatic usage of a word doesn't change the basic meaning of the word. For example, when one says "hit the road", this doesn't change the meaning of "hit" to "travel". The idiomatic expression as whole is interpreted through cultural nuances as "travel" but linguistically the basic meaning of the word "hit" is the same. The word "MaNAZL" always means something that one descends to. The relationship between the form NZL and MaNAZL is fairly common in the Arabic language, for example, think SJD and MaSAJD, DRS and MaDARS. No one with a grain of common sense would claim that MaDARS can actually mean a place for ignorance (the opposite of study like ascending is the opposite of descending).

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 10, 2008, 03:59:43 PM
Salam

Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 12:30 PM till 4:30 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.

 :peace:

Salaam
Afridi,

Thank you for this information. So if the hottest months are June, July and August then, as we learn from 9:81, the war was in one of the hot months, after the sacred months; in other words, at least 3 months had passed since Ramadan, according to Ayman's theory.

Now work it out yourself when was Ramadan?

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 10, 2008, 04:07:26 PM
Salam

Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 12:30 PM till 4:30 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.

 :peace:

If Rammadan starts in June 25, according to Ayman;
and if Rammdan is the starter of the 4 restricted months;
Then, Verse 9-81 had to be in October.

If you look deeply in verse 9-81, you will note that they were complaining from going to war in Summer Season; as you know going to war in the days of prophet is different than our days. It will involve traveling that might take a month, and it will involve weeks of fighting untill some one would win.
In 9-81, they were complaining about doing all the above in Heat time (summer time). Trust me,if it was september, as you said (how did you calculate) they would have never use that reason, knowning that the next two or three month will be not as hot.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: afridi220 on September 10, 2008, 04:19:17 PM
Salaam
Afridi,

Thank you for this information. So if the hottest months are June, July and August then, as we learn from 9:81, the war was in one of the hot months, after the sacred months; in other words, at least 3 months had passed since Ramadan, according to Ayman's theory.

Now work it out yourself when was Ramadan?

 :peace:

Muharam is the first and Ramadan is the ninth month

salam farida

The Islamic months are named as follows:[3]

Muharram محرّم (or Muḥarram al Ḥaram)
Safar صفر (or Ṣafar al Muzaffar)
Rabi' al-awwal (Rabī' I) ربيع الأول
Rabi' al-thani (or Rabī' al Thānī, or Rabī' al-Akhir) (Rabī' II) ربيع الآخر أو ربيع الثاني
Jumada al-awwal (Jumādā I) جمادى الاولى
Jumada al-thani (or Jumādā al-akhir) (Jumādā II) جمادى الآخر أو جمادى الثاني
Rajab رجب (or Rajab al Murajab)
Sha'aban شعبان (or Sha'abān al Moazam)
Ramadan رمضان (or Ramzān, long form: Ramaḍān al Mubarak)
Shawwal شوّال (or Shawwal al Mukarram)
Dhu al-Qi'dah ذو القعدة
Dhu al-Hijjah ذو الحجة

The three successive forbidden months mentioned by Muhammad (months in which battles are forbidden) are Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, and Muharram, thus excluding an intercalary month before Muharram. The single forbidden month is Rajab. These months were considered forbidden both within the new Islamic calendar and within the old pagan Meccan calendar, although whether they maintained their "forbidden" status after the conquest of Mecca has been disputed among Islamic scholars.[citation needed]

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 10, 2008, 04:31:04 PM
Muharam is the first and Ramadan is the ninth month

salam farida

The Islamic months are named as follows:[3]

Muharram محرّم (or Muḥarram al Ḥaram)
Safar صفر (or Ṣafar al Muzaffar)
Rabi' al-awwal (Rabī' I) ربيع الأول
Rabi' al-thani (or Rabī' al Thānī, or Rabī' al-Akhir) (Rabī' II) ربيع الآخر أو ربيع الثاني
Jumada al-awwal (Jumādā I) جمادى الاولى
Jumada al-thani (or Jumādā al-akhir) (Jumādā II) جمادى الآخر أو جمادى الثاني
Rajab رجب (or Rajab al Murajab)
Sha'aban شعبان (or Sha'abān al Moazam)
Ramadan رمضان (or Ramzān, long form: Ramaḍān al Mubarak)
Shawwal شوّال (or Shawwal al Mukarram)
Dhu al-Qi'dah ذو القعدة
Dhu al-Hijjah ذو الحجة

The three successive forbidden months mentioned by Muhammad (months in which battles are forbidden) are Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, and Muharram, thus excluding an intercalary month before Muharram. The single forbidden month is Rajab. These months were considered forbidden both within the new Islamic calendar and within the old pagan Meccan calendar, although whether they maintained their "forbidden" status after the conquest of Mecca has been disputed among Islamic scholars.[citation needed]

 :peace:

Salaam Afridi
At the moment we are working on Ayman's theroy and not the forbidden months you stated above.  I am trying to ascertain when Ramadan could be, if the fighting took place in hot weather.
Bilalhammd is showing that, if we apply Aymans thery, the forbiden months are not in the hot months as the surah indicates.
I hope this helps
 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 10, 2008, 04:32:43 PM
Peace all,

This is false. Idiomatic usage of a word doesn't change the basic meaning of the word. For example, when one says "hit the road", this doesn't change the meaning of "hit" to "travel". The idiomatic expression as whole is interpreted through cultural nuances as "travel" but linguistically the basic meaning of the word "hit" is the same. The word "MaNAZL" always means something that one descends to. The relationship between the form NZL and MaNAZL is fairly common in the Arabic language, for example, think SJD and MaSAJD, DRS and MaDARS. No one with a grain of common sense would claim that MaDARS can actually mean a place for ignorance (the opposite of study like ascending is the opposite of descending).

Peace,

Ayman

Salaam Ayman,

I notice you have been ignoring my posts of late. If, in any way, I have offended you please understand it was not malicious but sometimes, in order to reach a conclusion, one needs to be frank and straightforward.
I would like to thank you for inviting me to take part in this discussion, and let me tell you it has been the most productive ten day of the month of Ramadan for me, and a lot of the credit goes to you for making us find out the truth ourselves.

Best regards
farida
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 10, 2008, 04:54:50 PM
I just got a ? (2)

Is this the month OF hotness or not?

In other words, is this the moon of redness or not?

iN OTHER WORDS IS IT THE THE TIME OF FASTING OR NOT?


 :laugh:   :laugh:  :laugh: What are you saying anthonywallace, I cant stop laughing.  :laugh:


 :laugh:
No it is not he month of hotness
No it is not he moon of redness
 :hmm It is the time of fastness  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 10, 2008, 04:55:57 PM
9:81 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say: "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
Salaam all

Could it be that they were just trying to find an excuse, and that they were just lying and it was not really hot? The verse gives us their real intention, so what they were saying was not true. If it was really hot (imagine the heat of the desert during summer), wouldn't that be a reasonable excuse?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 10, 2008, 05:03:55 PM
9:81 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say: "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
Salaam all

Could it be that they were just trying to find an excuse, and that they were just lying and it was not really hot? The verse gives us their real intention, so what they were saying was not true. If it was really hot (imagine the heat of the desert during summer), wouldn't that be a reasonable excuse?

:nope:

Samia, God would have said that, but instead He confirmed that it was Hot by saying "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.

God is given us a hint that it was Summer time.
Do not try to save Ayman Theory using twisted prove
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: afridi220 on September 10, 2008, 05:18:28 PM
Salaam Afridi
At the moment we are working on Ayman's theroy and not the forbidden months you stated above.  I am trying to ascertain when Ramadan could be, if the fighting took place in hot weather.
Bilalhammd is showing that, if we apply Aymans thery, the forbiden months are not in the hot months as the surah indicates.
I hope this helps
 :peace:

Thsat calendar can help you in Ayman theory

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 10, 2008, 09:23:17 PM
Thsat calendar can help you in Ayman theory

 :peace:

Salaam Afridi,


6:71 Say: "Shall we indeed call on others besides Allah,- things that can do us neither good nor harm,- and turn on our heels after receiving guidance from Allah? - like one whom the evil ones have made into a fool, wandering bewildered through the earth, his friends calling, 'come to us', (vainly) guiding him to the path." Say: "Allah's guidance is the (only) guidance, and we have been directed to SUBMIT ourselves to the Lord of the worlds;-

3:200O you who believe, be patient and call for patience, and bond together and revere God that you may succeed

 :peace:
 
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 11, 2008, 12:22:41 AM
Do not try to save Ayman Theory using twisted prove


Salaam belal

Please don't be silly, I am not sharing yours or Ayman's understanding of fasting, let alone when. And please do not turn a discusion into duel camps: the camp of Ayman and the camp of belal or whoever....

Moreover, why shouldn't you consider all possibilities and eliminate them with a strong proof? "God could have said that" does not mean God said the opposite, and He does not "have to say" that. He did not say they were lying, so can you say that they were not lying because God did not say that when He "would have said that"?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 11, 2008, 04:35:40 AM
Peace Ayman,

What i said is completely true. Idiomatic usage CAN INDEED change the meaning of a word over time. Take for example like you said 'to hit the road.' That condensed into 'to hit it' as in 'to get out/to leave' and from that you can say 'we are going to hit los angeles, san fransisco and San antonio on this trip.' To hit now means 'to travel to.' So orignally this was not hit's meaning. But idiomatic usage gave the word new meaning OVER TIME (key word being OVER TIME). There are plenty of examples of this in all langauges. I'll see if I can dig up some more.

But here is the problem, this is talking etymology and we are not talking etymology here with nzl. I gave some etymological reasons for why the word has meanings that seem to be separate from it's base meaning to descend, but the word is what it is now. It has all of those meanings and there is an etymological reason behind it. Idiomatic usage is the prime suspect. But at this point it is not an idiom but a certified meaning of the word.

Furthermore manAZIL like I stated before is a plural for manzil. Which mean literally place of descent. Madras/madrasah/pl. MaDARIS means place of study, masjid/maSAJID measn place of paying homage, i.e. worship. the form is maf3il/maf3al singular and mafA3IL plural. You don't have to explain Arabic to me. Unless you are trying to teach something in your dialect to me, keep the lessons to yourself please. From our conversations I think I know more about Arabic then you are willing to know.

Godbless,
Anwar


Quote
This is false. Idiomatic usage of a word doesn't change the basic meaning of the word. For example, when one says "hit the road", this doesn't change the meaning of "hit" to "travel". The idiomatic expression as whole is interpreted through cultural nuances as "travel" but linguistically the basic meaning of the word "hit" is the same. The word "MaNAZL" always means something that one descends to. The relationship between the form NZL and MaNAZL is fairly common in the Arabic language, for example, think SJD and MaSAJD, DRS and MaDARS. No one with a grain of common sense would claim that MaDARS can actually mean a place for ignorance (the opposite of study like ascending is the opposite of descending).

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 11, 2008, 05:14:15 AM
Peace,

I would also like to point out that the connection between colors and the concept of scorching is a fallacy, and is not true to all cultures. Flames can be reddish, whitish or even bluish. In English we have the phrase to to burn white hot. Because really high fires tend to be more white than red. Alchohol burns blue. I just don't think it is an absolute thing to say because something is red we can connect that with the concept of scorching. Scorched bones and other things in the sun get bleached white. Fir even chars things and turns them black. So i don't buy this basic connection between a reddish moon and the concept of very hot. I've seen red moons in the fall. I think here in the states red moons are mostly associated with fall and fall colors.  Just my take, I think it is a fallacious argument. Not to mention that shahr has all kinds of meanings, from month to plain old moon, to crescent moon. hilaal means moon stage and can even mean a full moon. I think I showed along time ago that if we take the Quranic concept of day from sunrise to sunrise using the dictionry meaning of a shahr as 29 islamic days, it equals 30 of the quranic days. Islamic days are from sunset to sunset.  So when a day begins at night in the Islamic system the first day has already begun sunrise that same day in the Quranic system. That creates an extra day in the Quranic system whereas in the Islamic system it stays 29 days. If you count out 30 sunrise to sunrise Quranic days you get 29 sunset to sunset islamiic days within them. Everyone can try it. Use Q for Quranic days and I for Islamic days, then count the Q and I's
Q =Quranic day and I = Islamic day  Only thinking minds should dare to attempt this.

Begiiiin Counting!
                                 
Sunrise(1st) Sunset(1st) Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q

Conclusion 29I = 30Q. In English that is 29 Islamic days equals 30 Quranic days.

I set it up this way because from sunrise (1st) to the first Q is the completion of the first Quranic day so start counting from 1 at the first Q. From Sunset(1st) to the first I is the completion of the first Islamic day. You will see that every Quranic day has a sunset in it and every Islamic day has a sunrise in it. This is all the proof I need to show you that 30 days is also a shahr.

Godbless,
Anwar



 
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 11, 2008, 06:13:19 AM
Peace Nun,

How do we witness/know which of the four phases is full moon?

In addition to our brains being programmed to make the solstice moon appear bigger, our brains are programmed to appreciate symmetry. We even associate symmetry with beauty. The full moon will be symmetric. This is how we all know a full moon when we see one. On the other hand, how many of us have actually seen the new-moon? I bet none.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 11, 2008, 06:32:54 AM
Peace Samia,

9:81 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say: "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say: "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
Could it be that they were just trying to find an excuse, and that they were just lying and it was not really hot? The verse gives us their real intention, so what they were saying was not true. If it was really hot (imagine the heat of the desert during summer), wouldn't that be a reasonable excuse?

I don't believe that it would be a reasonable excuse because the enemy would equally be affected by the heat. The main issue is that between 9:5 and 9:81 a lot of things have happened. There is no evidence that 9:81 immediately follows 9:5. If one uses the logic that the passages from 9:5 to 9:81 are arranged in a way that they immediately follow one another chronologically then this means that the battle in 9:25-26 happened before 9:81 and so did the event in 9:40. So either way, the idea that the events described in 9:81 immediately followed 9:5 is completely baseless. Months could have passed between the two. Fighting is allowed during the inviolable full-moons as per 2:217.

Here are the facts:
1. A chapter of the great reading was descended (9:86) during this hot time of the year (9:81).
2. The great reading was descended on the night of measure which is also called "shahr ramadan".

Based on 1 and 2 above the night of measure and "shahr ramadan" occur during the hot time of the year.

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 11, 2008, 07:02:27 AM
Peace Anwar,

Furthermore manAZIL like I stated before is a plural for manzil. Which mean literally place of descent. Madras/madrasah/pl. MaDARIS means place of study, masjid/maSAJID measn place of paying homage, i.e. worship. the form is maf3il/maf3al singular and mafA3IL plural. You don't have to explain Arabic to me. Unless you are trying to teach something in your dialect to me, keep the lessons to yourself please. From our conversations I think I know more about Arabic then you are willing to know.

As I said, no one with a grain of common sense would claim that MaDARS can actually mean a place for ignorance like you claimed that MaNAZL can be a place of ascending.

As for knowing Arabic, what you know is Classical Arabic, a theoretical idealized language of post-quranic literature that no one ever actually spoke. This is not only my opinion at this stage but this is what gradually the Arabic language research community is beginning to realize.

This is why you are unable to provide the "plain truth" as you claimed here:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596565.msg170452#msg170452

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 11, 2008, 08:17:28 AM
Peace,

Ayman, stop your manipulating and untruths. You have been spreading these untruths for too long. I don't know a theorized language I know a real one. Go back as far as you can and read anythin and it is all in what you call a theorized language. All of it. Even the Quran is in this so-called theorized language written with every case ending and even pronounced with them. That is proof that your ideas are the theories here, the false theories at that. You suffer from the epidemic Arab mentality of not being able to distinguish the evolution of the Arab language and the Arab people. And you don't even know your own dialect well enough to distinguish it and what it really is. For you it is all a conspiracy. Guess what, no one conspires to evolve languages they just do that. You can only get an audience on an internet forum like free-minds for these crazy ideas. And only ignorant Arabs can put forth or believe these untruths. Educated Arabs know better. Maybe that will set all the other ignorant individuals in motion here but the truth is that your camp is one of untruth and lies. You can only form your opinions by fabricating historical conspiracies and defaming dictionaries. The intelligent laugh at this, the ignorant actually take you serious. I am all for unorthodox, but unintelligent and uneducated . . . NEVER.


So here is your main lie here:

Quote
As I said, no one with a grain of common sense would claim that MaDARS can actually mean a place for ignorance like you claimed that MaNAZL can be a place of ascending.

I gave you an explanation for why the word came to mean any general stage. It is an etymological explaination and it is admittedly an educated guess. You have always looked at things upside down which is why you come up with these cooky conclusions.  Can you explain to me why someone's mawqi3 (remember root word is to fall) can be up in a tower that that they had to ascend to get there? Now if I say that the person's mawqi3 is up in a tower am I claiming that mawqi3 means a place of ascension? HELL NO! Likewise I am not claiming what you are falsely accusing me of. And if you beleve that that is what I think then you have a brain problem.

Now here's the main piont. We have to accept that mawqi3 like manzil has come to mean location and stage despite their (most likely) original meanings of descent and not ascent. Now if we want to guess how manzil and mawqi3 acquired these meanings (location and stage) that are indifferent of ascent or descent then we can go into some eytmological reasonings and probably propose ARCHAIC idiomatic usage of the word that allowed for it to EVOLVE into a totally separate meaning from its (most likely) original root meaing. So stop being foolish Ayman and acting like this upside-down, inside-out logic you use is going to get you anywhere.

You seem to be the only one theorizing on the Arabic language here with your shahr as ONLY full moon (ignoring all of the other meanings) and manaazil as descending phases of the moon. Give me a break! I think it is mighty big of everyone here to even be entertaining these fallacies of yours. All in the name of Free minds. But then you'll probably start talking about my Anwar-months, etc. etc. But the proof is in my previous post. And I don't have to ignore or pidgeon-hole meanings to come to my conclusions.

It's obvious to me that you don't even pay attention when you read the Quran. Just from our last conversation if you would pay attention to all of th spelling conventions used in the Quran that include case endings by using alif, waw and yaa, you would back off of half of these crazy conclusions of yours. You haven't studied language in general, and the Arabic language in particular, or even thought about it enough to propose half of the things you propose here.

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 11, 2008, 08:22:50 AM
Peace,

I guess another never-ending free-minds battle has been started. I'm sorry I have to speak the truth and denounce untruths. But I'm sorry for the virulent discourse that will follow this, zap my energy and waste my time for the next couple of weeks at the very least.

I'm hoping God shows me the worth of Free-minds some day. Because I only stay on here to help people understand things they don't. But most times people don't want help understanding anything they just want people to accept their ridiculous ideas because they are different, non-conformist, anti-establishment or radical. Woe to the rebellious! God is MOST GREAT!

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 11, 2008, 01:04:17 PM
Salaam everyone,

I am writing to bow out of this thread about Hot/Ramadan, as my journey was to find out the truth for myself and I have strong proofs from the Qur?an to believe that;
?Amongst those who witnessed? the month of Ramadan include all those who are present in this month and can perceive with their ears their eyes and their skins.
More importantly the month of Ramadan is not confined to the months of extreme heat.
If we say that 1:81 has no relevance to the earlier verse 9:1-5 still the fighting must be going on either after the sacred months or before the sacred months, but the fight was not during Ramadan as, according to Ayman, Ramadan is one of the sacred months..
The war in the past did not last for six days or so; it involved a long period of time  Now it is for everyone here who wants to find out truth to work it out for themselves. We are all answerable to Allah for our own deeds.

Even though ?the astro calculations of the movements of the heavenly bodies conforms with precise modern day calculations done by astro physicists and scientists and astro researchers? (Sibute ) the solstice moon has no bearing on ascertaining the month of Ramadan.

Thanks to Nun de plume for this very valid question;
How do we witness/know which of the four phases is full moon?
...seeing each of those four moons individually (don't have luxury to compare next to each other) -- how would be able to tell which is the full moon with less than .3% Illuminated Phase difference?


Whoever feels a need to eliminate more possibilities, obstructing the truth, it?s their prerogative. I am not going to invest any more of my time in this thread.

?I am out?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 11, 2008, 01:23:08 PM
Moreover, why shouldn't you consider all possibilities and eliminate them with a strong proof? "God could have said that" does not mean God said the opposite, and He does not "have to say" that. He did not say they were lying, so can you say that they were not lying because God did not say that when He "would have said that"?

Salaam Samia,

Please read the following verses and see if they pertain to your antics.

2:68 They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one." He said, "He says that she is a heifer that is neither too old, nor too young; of an intermediate age. Now, carry out what you are commanded to do."

2:69 They said: "Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify what color it is." He said: "He says it is a yellow heifer with a strong color, pleasing to those who see it."

2:70 They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one. The heifers look alike to us and, GOD willing, we will be guided."

2:71 He said, "He says that she is a heifer that was never humiliated in plowing the land or watering the crops; free from any blemish." They said, "Now you have brought the truth." They finally sacrificed her, after this lengthy reluctance



 :hmm

All the best
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 11, 2008, 01:55:31 PM
Salaam Samia,

Please read the following verses and see if they pertain to your antics.

2:68 They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one." He said, "He says that she is a heifer that is neither too old, nor too young; of an intermediate age. Now, carry out what you are commanded to do."

2:69 3:86 How can God guide a people who have rejected after believing, and they witnessed that the messenger is true, and the clarity had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people.

2:70  They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one. The heifers look alike to us and, GOD willing, we will be guided."

2:71 He said, "He says that she is a heifer that was never humiliated in plowing the land or watering the crops; free from any blemish." They said, "Now you have brought the truth." They finally sacrificed her, after this lengthy reluctance


 :hmm

All the best


Good verses farida,....

However this discussion is deeper than what I thought, and I will have to take my time to analize these posts further...

I have never really watched the moon phases and differences ect...and got into debth about the particular months the 4 months is ect...

But as of now, starting next year God willing, I will start my fast in august ( for it is the " hottest month. " that I know of, witness, and also feel over hear in Michigan )....unless my Lord guide me and forgive me, then I will surly be of those lost...
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Soof on September 11, 2008, 02:10:51 PM
Quote from: progod
This is all the proof I need to show you that 30 days is also a shahr.

Godbless,
Anwar



 

Peace

Which month is used to fast based on your understanding of the Qur'an alone and how did you determine this? Thanks.

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 11, 2008, 02:23:27 PM
Salaam farida

I am not the one wondering what colour the moon is or what size it should be or when in order to fast. I just took the other option and decided to feed the poor. Look into the mirror.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: rsw on September 11, 2008, 02:52:11 PM
Salaam farida

I am not the one wondering what colour the moon is or what size it should be or when in order to fast. I just took the other option and decided to feed the poor. Look into the mirror.

Excellent point.  Since the clear, absolute details of fasting have apparently been obscured (if it was easy there won't be all this debate over it) I think this is what I will do as well!  What a load off!
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 11, 2008, 03:21:07 PM
Peace Samia,

I don't believe that it would be a reasonable excuse because the enemy would equally be affected by the heat. The main issue is that between 9:5 and 9:81 a lot of things have happened. There is no evidence that 9:81 immediately follows 9:5.
If one uses the logic that the passages from 9:5 to 9:81 are arranged in a way that they immediately follow one another chronologically then this means that the battle in 9:25-26 happened before 9:81 and so did the event in 9:40.


Yousuf Ali:

Assuredly Allah did help you in many battle-fields and on the day of Hunayn: behold! your great numbers elated you, but they availed you naught: the land for all that it is wide, did constrain you and ye turned back in retreat. (9-25)
But Allah did pour His calm on the Mssenger and on the Believers and sent down forces which ye saw not: He punished the Unbelievers: thus doth He reward those without Faith. (9-26)
Again will Allah after this turn (in mercy) to whom He will: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (9-27)

 Ayman; you are twisting the truth; Why cann't you say what you understood when reading the above verses or the following verses?

If ye help not: for Allah did indeed help him; when the unbelievers drove him out: he had no more than one companion: they two were in the cave, and he said to his companion "Have no Fear, for Allah is with us": then Allah sent down His peace upon him, and strengthened him with forces which ye saw not, and humbled to the depths the word of the Unbelievers. But the word of Allah is exalted to the heights: for Allah is Exalted in might, Wise. (9-40)

Is it hard to say that these verses are reminders for the believers of past events?



So either way, the idea that the events described in 9:81 immediately followed 9:5 is completely baseless. Months could have passed between the two. Fighting is allowed during the inviolable full-moons as per 2:217.

As we all know Chapter 9 is very unique; it is the only Chapter that the prophet did not start with "In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful"

If you read Chapter nine, you cann't miss how its verses are related to each other.

Here are the facts:
1. A chapter of the great reading was descended (9:86) during this hot time of the year (9:81).
2. The great reading was descended on the night of measure which is also called "shahr ramadan".

Based on 1 and 2 above the night of measure and "shahr ramadan" occur during the hot time of the year.

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman

Here are the Facts...wow :o Ayman are you a Prophet :hail

Here are the Quranic Facts:
9-81 was in Hot summer days
9-81 was after the Four Restricted months
9-81 is the strongest prove from Quran that Rammadan does not have to be in Summer time.

another fact, from me:

9-81 is the Nail in the coffin that ended your theory .

 :yes
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: afridi220 on September 11, 2008, 03:33:53 PM
Salaam farida

I am not the one wondering what colour the moon is or what size it should be or when in order to fast. I just took the other option and decided to feed the poor. Look into the mirror.

 :hmm what about the poors if they are sick or too week and not able to feed poor  :pr
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 11, 2008, 03:37:49 PM
:hmm what about the poors if they are sick or too week and not able to feed poor  :pr

If I were unable to do either or, I won't...simple!
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: afridi220 on September 11, 2008, 03:46:47 PM
If I were unable to do either or, I won't...simple!

 :)
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 11, 2008, 04:12:42 PM
Soof,

According to my understanding:

1. Ramadan doesn't mean hottest (it is not a superlative) but constant and/or intense heat (just as shana'aan, a word of the same form also mentioned in the Quran means constant or intense hate). As we know being hot is relative to how cold we were before and what temperature we are use to.

2. According to the case ending on Ramadana, which is equal to ramadaanan and because if we understood shahrun it would still be read as shah-ru ramadaana, I think it is talking about any month within a time of constant/intense heat.

3. The constant/intense heat (ramadaanun) being referred to here is obviously a time period as we are to fast for a month within it. So Ramadan as I see it is another way of saying summer. It is the only time of constant/intense heat during the seasons of the year. The words used for summer qaith and saif meant different things in different microclimates in the Arabic speaking world back then, so what better way then to refer to the actual weather pattern and how it feels? I think that was a stroke of genius.

4. A month is 30 sunrise to sunrise days as demonstrated in my post above and in Quranic examples where individuals to feed are the only expiations for days of fasting missed, and two months of fasting is said in the Quran to be expiated by feeding 60 individuals.

5. So we fast for a period of 30 days during our local times of summer, as the Quran was revealed during a month of summer.


Soof that is my understanding. Thanks for asking for a synopsis. I was glad to give it.

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 11, 2008, 04:21:43 PM

If we say that 9:81 has no relevance to the earlier verse 9:1-5 still the fighting must be going on either after the sacred months or before the sacred months, but the fight was not during Ramadan as, according to Ayman, Ramadan is one of the sacred months..
The war in the past did not last for six days or so; it involved a long period of time  Now it is for everyone here who wants to find out truth to work it out for themselves. We are all answerable to Allah for our own deeds.


Peace Frieds:

You are right; either 9-81 is related or not related to 9-1 to 5, it still shows that summer time was not within the 4 restricted month; simply because the prophet was asking them to fight in Summer time.

Ayman!!!
9-81 is too strong to argue aginest; and if you continue to ignor its proof that The four restricted month were not in summer time, including Rammadan, during chapter 9, then you will look BEAINLESS in front of everybody.

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: rsw on September 11, 2008, 04:23:13 PM
Sawm cant mean fasting from food. If the poor must fast because they can not afford to feed others, then why is feeding them an expiation? how can we feed them if they are supposed to be fasting? Sawm must mean abstaining from something else
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Soof on September 11, 2008, 05:01:56 PM
Soof,

According to my understanding:

1. Ramadan doesn't mean hottest (it is not a superlative) but constant and/or intense heat (just as shana'aan, a word of the same form also mentioned in the Quran means constant or intense hate). As we know being hot is relative to how cold we were before and what temperature we are use to.

2. According to the case ending on Ramadana, which is equal to ramadaanan and because if we understood shahrun it would still be read as shah-ru ramadaana, I think it is talking about any month within a time of constant/intense heat.

3. The constant/intense heat (ramadaanun) being referred to here is obviously a time period as we are to fast for a month within it. So Ramadan as I see it is another way of saying summer. It is the only time of constant/intense heat during the seasons of the year. The words used for summer qaith and saif meant different things in different microclimates in the Arabic speaking world back then, so what better way then to refer to the actual weather pattern and how it feels? I think that was a stroke of genius.

4. A month is 30 sunrise to sunrise days as demonstrated in my post above and in Quranic examples where individuals to feed are the only expiations for days of fasting missed, and two months of fasting is said in the Quran to be expiated by feeding 60 individuals.

5. So we fast for a period of 30 days during our local times of summer, as the Quran was revealed during a month of summer.


Soof that is my understanding. Thanks for asking for a synopsis. I was glad to give it.

Godbless,
Anwar


Peace

Ok before I ask, I'm not trying to discredit your understanding or put any understanding I have over yours (as I know people can get sensitive about this). Is a month explicitly defined in the Qur'an or is every man woman child over the world supposed to know that a month is 30 qur'anic days from general consensus that is so apparent it doesn't need to be explained? A day is defined in the Qur'an, A night is defined, a year is defined. But the month? hmmm. God made it explicit for these periods of time so why not so for a month? (rhetorical) We all know the Qur'anic time measurement is not the same as the general time measurement (new day starts at 00:00) as you showed with qur'anic days so what is the Qur'anic month?

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: afridi220 on September 11, 2008, 05:24:41 PM
Salam

Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 12:30 PM till 4:30 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.

 :peace:

[hide]Mecca Climatological Data
Month                    Jan      Feb      Mar        Apr       May        Jun J       ul        Aug       Sep        Oct        Nov 
Record high ?C (?F) 33 (91) 35 (95) 38 (100) 40 (104) 42 (108) 47 (117) 42 (108) 42 (108) 42 (108) 41 (106)         
                             Nov      Dec    Year
                           41 (106) 34 (93)   
Average high ?C (?F) 29 (84) 29 (84) 29 (84) 33 (91) 35 (95) 37 (99) 40 (104) 37 (99) 36 (97) 35 (95) 33 (91) 32 (88)  33 (91)
Average low ?C (?F) 19 (66) 18 (64) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 24 (75) 26 (79) 27 (81) 25 (77) 23 (73) 22 (72) 19 (66)  22 (72)
Record low ?C (?F) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 16 (61) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 21 (70) 20 (68) 17 (63) 12 (53)   
 
Rainfall mm (in) 5 (0.2) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 25 (1.0) 31 (1.2)  61 (2.4)


[edit]
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 11, 2008, 06:19:21 PM
[hide]Mecca Climatological Data
Month                    Jan      Feb      Mar        Apr       May        Jun J       ul        Aug       Sep        Oct        Nov 
Record high ?C (?F) 33 (91) 35 (95) 38 (100) 40 (104) 42 (108) 47 (117) 42 (108) 42 (108) 42 (108) 41 (106)         
                             Nov      Dec    Year
                           41 (106) 34 (93)   
Average high ?C (?F) 29 (84) 29 (84) 29 (84) 33 (91) 35 (95) 37 (99) 40 (104) 37 (99) 36 (97) 35 (95) 33 (91) 32 (88)  33 (91)
Average low ?C (?F) 19 (66) 18 (64) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 24 (75) 26 (79) 27 (81) 25 (77) 23 (73) 22 (72) 19 (66)  22 (72)
Record low ?C (?F) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 16 (61) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 21 (70) 20 (68) 17 (63) 12 (53)   
 
Rainfall mm (in) 5 (0.2) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 25 (1.0) 31 (1.2)  61 (2.4)


[edit]

Why are you so lost; it was not Mecca, but Madena; The Madena Weather is simmilar to Jordan.
Now go and find the same information for Madena and post it if you are looking after showing the truth
 :yes
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 11, 2008, 06:31:52 PM
Peace,

As i said before a Quranic month can be seen two ways:

1. The verses where making up for days of fasting ONLY, is feeding a person for each day. 1 person for 1 day and 60 persons for 2 months.

2. In the dictionaries shahr (month) is said to be 29 days (and all of the other meanings of shahr). Those days are inherently islamic days, from sundown to sundown. But as I said 29 Islamic days implies 30 Quranic ones.

In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.


Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 11, 2008, 06:36:32 PM
Peace,



In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.


Godbless,
Anwar

Good Words. :sun:
And may God lead you and all of us to the Honest Truth.
Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Ahmad Bilal on September 12, 2008, 03:17:38 AM
Peace to all,

The word "ramadhan" itself refers to intense/extreme heat, so how can it not refer to a hot time of the year? There is no proof in the reading that "ramadhan" was the name of a pre-qur'anic month. The verse simply says "shahru ramadhan".

(1) If "shahr" refers to a "month", then the scriptures refers to an intensely hot month.
(2) If "shahr" refers to a full-moon, then the scripture refers to a specifically hot time period of the full-moon, or perhaps a "scorching hot/red moon".

Either way, given the root of the word "ramadhan", it would have to occur during a hot time period.

Also, even the traditional submitters base their calculator for "shahru ramadhan" on witnessing/sighting the moon. That is what the reading instructs us to do - whoever "sights/witnesses" the moon was to fast the period, according to the scripture. Whether you choose to sight the full-moon or the new crescent moon is completely up to you, but the full-moon would definately be easier to see than the new crescent moon. And regardless, the determination for the "shahr" isn't based on an arbitrary timetable - it's based on witnessing the moon, regardless of if "shahr" means "month" or "full-moon"...

Sawm cant mean fasting from food. If the poor must fast because they can not afford to feed others, then why is feeding them an expiation? how can we feed them if they are supposed to be fasting? Sawm must mean abstaining from something else

 :hmm Good question. May The God guide all of us to the truth.

Peace,

Ahmad
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Soof on September 12, 2008, 05:56:14 AM
Peace,

As i said before a Quranic month can be seen two ways:

1. The verses where making up for days of fasting ONLY, is feeding a person for each day. 1 person for 1 day and 60 persons for 2 months.

2. In the dictionaries shahr (month) is said to be 29 days (and all of the other meanings of shahr). Those days are inherently islamic days, from sundown to sundown. But as I said 29 Islamic days implies 30 Quranic ones.

In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.


Godbless,
Anwar

Peace

OK but how did Muhammad and his followers know how to fast when there were no Classical Arabic Dictionaries explaining what a month is? Does it say 60 persons for 2 months? [Where did the definition of a Qur'anic month = 29 days come from?] is my main query, or is it something  that everyone should know automatically whilst reading the Qur'an? If it comes from a dictionary that comes after it then that is subject to great sceptism. You are right, there are things in the Qur'an that require in depth study and personal opinion, but a duty that God says is very good for us (although not compulsory) should be made crystal clear besides the fact that God says the Qur'an is clear guidance. The description of the fast should be clear in how and when to do it and this description should be relevant and universal at the time the Qur'an was revealed as well as after.

Peace



Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 12, 2008, 11:07:20 AM
Peace,


Quote
OK but how did Muhammad and his followers know how to fast when there were no Classical Arabic Dictionaries explaining what a month is?

They didn't need Classical Arabic dictionaries because they spoke Classical Arabic. We need the dictionaries because we don't speak it anymore unless we learn it (inclduing the Arabs of today). They knew that a month was 29 (Jewish based, now called Islamic) days. When reading the Quran and figuring out that the Jewish-based way there were counting days was incorrect then they could have made the connection. The book was for our last prophet to preach it and for the whole community to study it and enact it. I honestly dont' think they realized this. In the Islamic histories (admittedly hadeeth based) the months were taken off of the pagan system (of adding months in certain years) after our last prophet passed. So I think this challenge fell on the shoulders of the generations after our last prophet and they made the wrong decision. The other conclusion would be that our last prophet with the believing community did make the correct changes but later generations opted for the pre-islamic nomenclature of months and the lunar system, keeping off addition of an extra month (making it a fully lunar calendar), but using foreign calendars for the solar system. Which is not entirely far-fetched seeing that the nominal Musilms (the Ummayads and others) tried to bring things back to the Jahillyah system as soon as the last prophet passed away.

Quote
Does it say 60 persons for 2 months?

Yes.  58:4 However, he who does not have the where?withal shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed sixty needy ones

Here it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people

5:89 is the vers that has been use against me in the argument. It reads: 
Quote
Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.

But I have continued to argrue here that in this verse we are not expiating any fast. The breaking of our oaths is worth feeding 10 people in need or JUST clothing them, or freeing someone in bondage.  But if we can't do that we can fast for 3 days. So here we are not making up for any fasting. Whereas before if we can't fast then we expiate for the fast. That is the difference.

Here are the two verses that lay down the rule: 2:183-2:184

Quote
[Where did the definition of a Qur'anic month = 29 days come from?] is my main query, or is it something  that everyone should know automatically whilst reading the Qur'an?

Lisaanul-Arab. I saw it in another dictionary as well. i don't have acceess to it any more. I think it was mu'jamat al-lughaat.
This is a meaning that was once automatically known. In MSA (modern standard Arabic which is the closest thing to Classical Arabic still spoken) a month is known either as an Islamic month, a western one or any number of days around 30 days in general. But we are talking about in the past here. And the Classical dictionaries tell us what people considered a month in the past amongst Classical Arabic speakers. We are speaking of a time period of over 1400 years. For that reason we are referring to dictionaries that tell us how people automatically understood these word 1400 years ago. Hence the Classical Arabic dictionary.

 
Quote
If it comes from a dictionary that comes after it then that is subject to great sceptism.

I understand your point here. The fact here however is that it was being documented how Arabic was blending and changing and how in certain places it wasn't. We are at the point now (and have been for centuries now) where Arabic has totally blended and evolved everywhere, except in the academic and scholarly field, where they maintained what was once the natural language of all Arabs but is now an archaic Arabic like Elizabethan English is archaic to us. Hence MSA was derived after many official councils on the Arabic language in the 20th century to install an official langauge in the education curriculum and media use based in most part on the now archaic (Classical) Arabic found in the Quran, pre-islamic poems, the hadeeth and other discourse of people after that. This was done to respect the history of Arabic literature and to mitigate some of the many subtle differences and the somtimes stark differences between the blended evolved Arabics (often called dialects, 3aamiyah or darijah) of different regions (these are known as Khaliji (gulf), Maghribi (incluses hassaniyyah and shuba), Misri (includes Sudan and Egypt), Yamani (includes Soqotri and Mehri which are technically different languages than Arabic, Soqotri has more Arabic in it I believe), And Saudi (also a product of mixing because of the inflow of non-Arabic or dialect speaking Muslims from all of the conquered Arabic territories))

That is the history. All Classical Arabic dictionaries were dedicated to reaching the people who still spoke Classical Arabic after the Quran and checking, analyzing and recording their use of the language. Reading the prefaces of Lisan-Al-Arab or lane's lexicon will give you a better picture of how early the works are and the situation of Arabic at the time. These dictionaries are all after the Quran, but Classical Arabic was still being fluently spoken after the Quran. Seeing that there were few educational institutions early on besides Quranic schools, the widely spread rumorous hadeeths prove this point as well. The Hadeeths are pure rumor and all of them are in Classical Arabic, which confirms the language's existence as a commonly spoken language among Arabs and especially bedouin Arabs.

Now to put these dictionaries under skepticism would be equal to putting our dictionaries like webster and oxford's under criticism and saying that they don't apply to works like the constitution or other English works pre-1800. But a good dictionary like Oxford for instance (which is the one we would refer to for archaic Englsh works) dates meanings and quotations, espeically if they come from interpretations of religious or political scholars where the words have been embellished upon and changed from their original meanings.

So I hope you understand that

1. The effort of any dictionary is to record the use of the langauge it has dedicating itself to. 
2. If there were reasons to suggest differences in language B as it is spoken as opposed to records of how it was spoken before (Quran reciters, pre-islamic poem reciters being the ones to refer to) they would have been noted, and they were noted.
3. Dictionary writers checked with people who lived during the time of the prophet or shortly after his death as to how they used their language and their words.
4. All this may resemble the hadeeth but there is a major difference between verifying rumors and what people heard about the prophet and history surrounding him and how they spoke to each other and used their everyday words with each other(and being able to recognize if it is the same langaue as the Quran or not).
5. The Bedouins of that day were recorded as still using the same language and language structure as that found in the Quran, pre-islamic poetry and the hadeeths (as an every day house and street language in addition to a literate one for those who knew how to write) up to 300 years after the death of the prophet. After that the blended Arabic of the city areas where different cultures and ethnicities met and lived together (a result of Arab imperialism, Arab importation of foreign slaves as servants, international trade and the attraction of non-Arab Muslms to Arab centers of commerce and learning) began to fully affect bedouin speech as well.

Quote
You are right, there are things in the Qur'an that require in depth study and personal opinion, but a duty that God says is very good for us (although not compulsory) should be made crystal clear besides the fact that God says the Qur'an is clear guidance.

I hate to say this but that is a bias of yours. You are requiring that God make what he says clear to the corrupt and the uncorrupt a like. The Quran says that the corrupt intentionally twist its words after understanding them, and also says that many of the corrupt fail to understand even it's clearest mandates. How can we know when the corrupt do understand but are twisting on purpose? We can't, because they won't openly admit this. To those of us who are honest that is heart-wrenching because we want to believe that all humans will be honest when it comes to these sorts of discussion, but I've learned that that just will not happen. And if someone doesn't understand because they don't want to, it is also impossible to get them to admit that. So i understand you but that is why it is up to the honest to be honest with themselves, clear themselves of bias and alternative agendas and to be on the look out for those who are also honestly searching, studynig, analyzing and concluding.

To me alternative agendas are easy to spot, but it is impossible to get people with these agendas to admit it to others, let alone themslves. I understand your sentiment, but it is not the Quran, it is the people.


 
Quote
The description of the fast should be clear in how and when to do it and this description should be relevant and universal at the time the Qur'an was revealed as well as after

These are all your requirments and expectations. Honestly instead of demanding this of the Quran, demand this of your understanding of the book and its issues. That when you come to a conclusion it be as clear, unbiased and as non-convaluted as possible, and agrees with every Quranic verse on the subject and that it be as universal as possible. Remember that the Quran is for those who use their 3aql, not those who refuse to or choose to abuse. Unfortunately since we cannot control how justly and fervently peeople use their 3aql we can't guarantee that they would have understood this at the time of the Quran's revelation or after. That they understand the Quran as best as they can is all I think is required. So if the people at the time of its revelation honestly thought that their Jahillliyah month of Ramadan is what was meant then they did their best. If they realized that just 30 days during their local summer is what was meant then I think they were more correct in that estimation. If they though that the Quran validated their month names but not the way they added months to keep their year solar and that was their most honest assessment then they did their best. SO for those of us that realize something is wrong with the traditional islamic system it is up for us to honestly and unbiasedly investigate and try to arrive to the truth of the matter. BUt for those who don't realize I'm sure God accepts their fasting as he accepts ours if we our honest about our conclusions.
Do you see my points here?


Godbless,
Anwar

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 12, 2008, 12:39:54 PM
Yes.  58:4 However, he who does not have the where?withal shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed sixty needy ones

Here it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people

Salaam Anwar, all

I know you expect me to respond, so I did not want to disappoint you  ;D. However, my question is not linguistic, but something that I was thinking of. I mentioned that I opted for the option of feeding the poor, but the verse does not say how many poor people, but mentions (compensation of feeding a poor) 2:184. I personally took it as a collective plural, although it could be just one.

My question: Does it mean fasting is only one day, or this sawm is not even "fasting from food and drink" but something else, or is it a third understanding? What do you think?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Nun de plume on September 12, 2008, 03:05:29 PM
Peace everyone,

The word "ramadhan" itself refers to intense/extreme heat, so how can it not refer to a hot time of the year?

The word July comes from Julius Caesar - it's also the name of a month.

Quote
There is no proof in the reading that "ramadhan" was the name of a pre-qur'anic month.

They called the months something back then and those names were passed down.

Whether you choose to sight the full-moon or the new crescent moon is completely up to you, but the full-moon would definately be easier to see than the new crescent moon.

Are you sure? Is this a full moon?

(http://i35.tinypic.com/dbntlk.jpg)

On different days you would see a 99.7% full moon.

The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) is much easier to tell...

(http://fredkleinastro.com/images/MoonAndVenus.JPG)
 
Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Soof on September 12, 2008, 03:56:51 PM
Quote from: progod
Peace,


They didn't need Classical Arabic dictionaries because they spoke Classical Arabic. We need the dictionaries because we don't speak it anymore unless we learn it (inclduing the Arabs of today). They knew that a month was 29 (Jewish based, now called Islamic) days. When reading the Quran and figuring out that the Jewish-based way there were counting days was incorrect then they could have made the connection. The book was for our last prophet to preach it and for the whole community to study it and enact it. I honestly dont' think they realized this. In the Islamic histories (admittedly hadeeth based) the months were taken off of the pagan system (of adding months in certain years) after our last prophet passed. So I think this challenge fell on the shoulders of the generations after our last prophet and they made the wrong decision. The other conclusion would be that our last prophet with the believing community did make the correct changes but later generations opted for the pre-islamic nomenclature of months and the lunar system, keeping off addition of an extra month (making it a fully lunar calendar), but using foreign calendars for the solar system. Which is not entirely far-fetched seeing that the nominal Musilms (the Ummayads and others) tried to bring things back to the Jahillyah system as soon as the last prophet passed away.

The Dictionary question was rhetorical by the way...
Your mentioning the actions of Muhammad & his followers at that time cannot help. Otherwise I might as well turn to a Hadith to explain to me. The Qur'an has always explained itself and never needs another story to clarify it. So my point is not to say that it I require things from the Qur'an or that I have a biased opinion that the Qur'an should be straightforward. There are the cornerstones and the ambiguous but all duties in the Qur'an are made very clear and very detailed (hajj, inheritance, divorce, orphans, marriage) so following through the fasting duty must be clear (which I believe it is, I never said I haven't got my own understanding I was just asking of yours). You mention Muhammad and the people making corrections and changes but this is meant to be the Worldwide religion, are we to accept that the month we use for the duties of GOD is in the hands of Man to correct? If a muslim who has no knowledge of this history or hadeeth but knowledge of the moon and the sun and its cycles comes to the Qur'an alone, how does he deduce what a month is?



Quote from: progod
Yes.  58:4 However, he who does not have the where­withal shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed sixty needy ones

Here it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people

5:89 is the vers that has been use against me in the argument. It reads: 
But I have continued to argrue here that in this verse we are not expiating any fast. The breaking of our oaths is worth feeding 10 people in need or JUST clothing them, or freeing someone in bondage.  But if we can't do that we can fast for 3 days. So here we are not making up for any fasting. Whereas before if we can't fast then we expiate for the fast. That is the difference.

Here are the two verses that lay down the rule: 2:183-2:184

Fair enough.

I understand your standing point on the dictionaries. I use them and lane's lexicon frequently. The best way in the end to decide is to collect like verses together and compare. Then come to the best conclusion.

Quote from: progod
I hate to say this but that is a bias of yours. You are requiring that God make what he says clear to the corrupt and the uncorrupt a like. The Quran says that the corrupt intentionally twist its words after understanding them, and also says that many of the corrupt fail to understand even it's clearest mandates. How can we know when the corrupt do understand but are twisting on purpose? We can't, because they won't openly admit this. To those of us who are honest that is heart-wrenching because we want to believe that all humans will be honest when it comes to these sorts of discussion, but I've learned that that just will not happen. And if someone doesn't understand because they don't want to, it is also impossible to get them to admit that. So i understand you but that is why it is up to the honest to be honest with themselves, clear themselves of bias and alternative agendas and to be on the look out for those who are also honestly searching, studynig, analyzing and concluding.

Yea, but you misunderstood, I'm not asking God of anything, I already know God makes things clear to those who are mindful, who study and reflect

Who hear advice and follow the best thereof. Such are those whom Allah guideth, and such are men of understanding.
39:18

But what is corrupt? Corrupt [in part] is to use an external source to explain the Qur'an. Eventually you (not you personally) will twist the words of the Qur'an to match the external source, case in point the Hadith. So MY point is saying coming to the Qur'an alone, God says HIMSELF that he will make things clear for the believers and no MAN should need to, how can a man of lower intellect and fewer words explain to me any better than the Almighty, Most Wise? To say that I require Him to do this or that is neither here nor there, He tells us what He will do with his revelation, it's not bias at all. There are countless verses I shouldn't have to quote them to you, they are not demands at all   :nope:, they are descriptions of the Qur'an!

So in conclusion God makes cornerstones of the Qur'an very clear, among them being the duties and guidelines to live by. Indeed there are subtleties that must be discussed but this does not detract from the final point, that fasting is good for us and we should observe it at certain periods of our lives. It is only when you use EXTERNAL sources that you corrupt God's word and things become unclear such as making Ramadhan a stand alone word that isn't translated (agree?). The closest thing to an uncorrupt external source is a Dictionary but even then their are interpretations that creep in from Hadith. God makes it plain and clear that we should come to understanding using the Qur'an ALONE. (obviously yt ou need an understanding of the Classical Arabic language as a pre-requisite)

What do you think about MaAAdoodatin particularly denoting few and not counted? (lanes lexicon) Also, just because someone fasts the month does not necessarily mean the WHOLE month.

Peace

[/quote]
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 12, 2008, 05:05:59 PM
Peace Nun,

They called the months something back then and those names were passed down.

What did they call them? It is not like we don't know. There are many Arabian pre-quranic inscriptions that have dates and names of months so this should be easy for you to find. In fact, I think I posted the names here on this forum in the past. Amongst those names you will not find any month named Ramadan.

Are you sure? Is this a full moon?

I have never heard two people disagree on when the full moon occured. So yeah I am sure. Also, based on the term "ramadan" the full-moon we should use is going to be more red and lower on the horizon than the nearly full one the next day, even though they might be close in percent illimunated.

The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) is much easier to tell...

Did you see it this year if it is so easy to tell? Did you ever see it? Probably not. How come every year there are so many disputes about the start and end of so-called Ramadan if it is so easy to tell?

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Soof on September 12, 2008, 06:18:36 PM
updated response to Progod:

The Dictionary question was rhetorical by the way...
Your mentioning the actions of Muhammad & his followers at that time cannot help. Otherwise I might as well turn to a Hadith to explain to me. The Qur'an has always explained itself and never needs another story to clarify it. So my point is not to say that it I require things from the Qur'an or that I have a biased opinion that the Qur'an should be straightforward. There are the cornerstones and the ambiguous but all duties in the Qur'an are made very clear and very detailed (hajj, inheritance, divorce, orphans, marriage) so following through the fasting duty must be clear (which I believe it is, I never said I haven't got my own understanding I was just asking of yours). You mention Muhammad and the people making corrections and changes but this is meant to be the Worldwide religion, are we to accept that the month we use for the duties of GOD is in the hands of Man to correct? If a muslim who has no knowledge of this history or hadeeth but knowledge of the moon and the sun and its cycles comes to the Qur'an alone, how does he deduce what a month is?



Fair enough. But that verse is referring to a punishment that is separate from Ramadhan, with a separate purpose (God says fasting is good for us but it is also used as a punishment so we recognise the error of what we are doing). It may well be 60 days in this case. Does this mean that it is so?

Why is it described here as fast for two consecutive months in this verse yet in the verse regarding ramadhan it says whoever witnesses the month should fast it?

How do you witness a month?

Why do some people say Witness, some people say observe and some people say are present? Does this mean the whole month? If you take it as 30 days why doesn't God say if we can't fast the month then feed 30 Needy People? when in fact it says

(Fast) a certain number of days; and (for) him who is sick among you, or on a journey, (the same) number of other days; and for those who can afford it there is a ransom: the feeding of a man in need - but whoso doeth good of his own accord, it is better for him: and that ye fast is better for you if ye did but know
2:184

Does this mean the fast is one day according to your logic?

I understand your standing point on the dictionaries. I use them and lane's lexicon frequently. The best way in the end to decide is to collect like verses together and compare. Then come to the best conclusion.

Yea, but you misunderstood, I'm not asking God of anything, I already know God makes things clear to those who are mindful, who study and reflect

Who hear advice and follow the best thereof. Such are those whom Allah guideth, and such are men of understanding.
39:18

But what is corrupt? Corrupt [in part] is to use an external source to explain the Qur'an. Eventually you (not you personally) will twist the words of the Qur'an to match the external source, case in point the Hadith. So MY point is saying coming to the Qur'an alone, God says HIMSELF that he will make things clear for the believers and no MAN should need to, how can a man of lower intellect and fewer words explain to me any better than the Almighty, Most Wise? To say that I require Him to do this or that is neither here nor there, He tells us what He will do with his revelation, it's not bias at all. There are countless verses I shouldn't have to quote them to you, they are not demands at all   :nope:, they are descriptions of the Qur'an!

So in conclusion God makes cornerstones of the Qur'an very clear, among them being the duties and guidelines to live by. Indeed there are subtleties that must be discussed but this does not detract from the final point, that fasting is good for us and we should observe it at certain periods of our lives. It is only when you use EXTERNAL sources that you corrupt God's word and things become unclear such as making Ramadhan a stand alone word that isn't translated (agree?). The closest thing to an uncorrupt external source is a Dictionary but even then their are interpretations that creep in from Hadith. God makes it plain and clear that we should come to understanding using the Qur'an ALONE. (obviously yt ou need an understanding of the Classical Arabic language as a pre-requisite)

What do you think about MaAAdoodatin particularly denoting few and not counted? (lanes lexicon) Also, just because someone fasts the month does not necessarily mean the WHOLE month.

Peace


Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 12, 2008, 06:25:23 PM

Peace Nun,

Did you see it this year if it is so easy to tell? Did you ever see it? Probably not. How come every year there are so many disputes about the start and end of so-called Ramadan if it is so easy to tell?

Peace,

Ayman

This is the year of a dispute, for all I know. I believe you started this dispute this year...Thus I never knew of it to be a dispute...every year as you say...

 :peace:

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 12, 2008, 07:58:22 PM
Peace,

i want to answer Samia first and say that the fast is daily. The fast is only for 1 day duirng daylight hours (hence you break it the same day), and you fast each day for the whole month. So you are not fasting the month, you are fasting during the daylight hours each day during the whole month. So, Quranically, fasting only relates to one day of fasting, because you break your fast each night and start a new one the next day for a month during Ramadan. Hence if you don't fast, you feed one person for every fast you don't do during that month.

Quote
The Dictionary question was rhetorical by the way...
Your mentioning the actions of Muhammad & his followers at that time cannot help. Otherwise I might as well turn to a Hadith to explain to me. The Qur'an has always explained itself and never needs another story to clarify it. So my point is not to say that it I require things from the Qur'an or that I have a biased opinion that the Qur'an should be straightforward. There are the cornerstones and the ambiguous but all duties in the Qur'an are made very clear and very detailed (hajj, inheritance, divorce, orphans, marriage) so following through the fasting duty must be clear (which I believe it is, I never said I haven't got my own understanding I was just asking of yours). You mention Muhammad and the people making corrections and changes but this is meant to be the Worldwide religion, are we to accept that the month we use for the duties of GOD is in the hands of Man to correct? If a muslim who has no knowledge of this history or hadeeth but knowledge of the moon and the sun and its cycles comes to the Qur'an alone, how does he deduce what a month is?

Ok, I didn't know that was rethorical. As for the story, I'm just giving possiblities for why Islam has done this whole Ramadan thing incorrectly and unquranically (I'm not saying that God won't accept the traditional way from sincere servants). No we don't need this when approaching the Quran, just trying to give possiblities for why it hasn't been so clear too many in the past and what could have gone wrong. Ther are even debatablities on hajj, inheritance (some people say it doesn't add up), divorce, orphans and even marriage. I'm sure we could find those points that some people will not let go and force into unsolvable ambiguities. But you and I understand why that is. The fasting duty is clear it is just that you have come accross camps of people who want to take any hint of an ambiguity and use it to help their agendas.  As for this being a worldwide religion I agree. i believe that those instances of the Quran that cannot be seen from a universal point of view are there to serve as universal lessons on how we are to approach or view the issues involved. Again those scenarios were to explain what could have gone wrong during or after the prophet's time that bliinded them to the inherent universal application of these passages. As for knowing what a month is, that is cultural. And it was in the culture and therefore in the language of the pre-islamic Arabs that a month was 29 sunset to sunset days, and analyzing what that translates into when converted into Quranically mandated sunrise to sunrise days we get 30 days, that in addtion to the fact tha the Quran gives us clues on to this meaning. So the Arabs of that time had in their minds many things when they thought shahr and they had a few defintions for what a month could be as well, one of which translates into 30 sunrise to sunrise days.

Quote
Fair enough. But that verse is referring to a punishment that is separate from Ramadhan, with a separate purpose (God says fasting is good for us but it is also used as a punishment so we recognise the error of what we are doing). It may well be 60 days in this case. Does this mean that it is so?

It is not a punishment but a compensation, an atonement. The fact is that in chapt. 2 with those verse i gave you how to fast Quranically is given to us, as well as how to compensate for our missed fasts. So with that verse we see clearly how 2 months of fasting is being equals to 60 daily fasts.
Hence if 2 months is 60 days, 30 days is a month.

Quote
hy do some people say Witness, some people say observe and some people say are present? Does this mean the whole month? If you take it as 30 days why doesn't God say if we can't fast the month then feed 30 Needy People? when in fact it says
In my opinion because people like to argue about simple things. Shahdia is both to witness and to consciously be in the presence of. There are alot of things I wish God had said in ways that people could not make room for doubt. But this book is for those who use their 3aql. Also the fast is not for the month. The fast is for each day during the month. You are fasting daily for 30 days. You are not fasting for the whole month. I think there will be those cases where people can stand to fast part of the month. And that can be any number of days. Hence the Quran is dealing with each daily fast.


Quote
But what is corrupt? Corrupt [in part] is to use an external source to explain the Qur'an. Eventually you (not you personally) will twist the words of the Qur'an to match the external source, case in point the Hadith. So MY point is saying coming to the Qur'an alone, God says HIMSELF that he will make things clear for the believers and no MAN should need to, how can a man of lower intellect and fewer words explain to me any better than the Almighty, Most Wise? To say that I require Him to do this or that is neither here nor there, He tells us what He will do with his revelation, it's not bias at all. There are countless verses I shouldn't have to quote them to you, they are not demands at all   no way, they are descriptions of the Qur'an!

Yes, the Quran explains itself. I think knowledge of the universe also makes the Quran even more clear to us. When we meet people that the Quran describes it makes it all the more clear what the Quran is talking about, even though it was clear before we me those people. It's just we didn't fully grasp the gravity of it. I also think that sometimes hearing others' honest and insightful opinons on the Quran can help us understand what we didn't see before in the book, as long as we come to see the same thing too by honestly analyzing and scrutinizing. Again, clear is only as clear as the human mind that reads it. I've seen people contort clear mandates over and over again. And the Quran says that there will be those who distort it. So even knowing that God will make the book clear to those who approach it corretly, that is, as a whole and taking what is best, in context and consistent with the rest of the book, there will be those who will try to pick and choose and make us doubt if the book is really clear or not. In the end that is up to you and the circle of people you come to trust to conclude on, being honest and sincere with yourselves.

Quote
So in conclusion God makes cornerstones of the Qur'an very clear, among them being the duties and guidelines to live by. Indeed there are subtleties that must be discussed but this does not detract from the final point, that fasting is good for us and we should observe it at certain periods of our lives. It is only when you use EXTERNAL sources that you corrupt God's word and things become unclear such as making Ramadhan a stand alone word that isn't translated (agree?). The closest thing to an uncorrupt external source is a Dictionary but even then their are interpretations that creep in from Hadith. God makes it plain and clear that we should come to understanding using the Qur'an ALONE. (obviously yt ou need an understanding of the Classical Arabic language as a pre-requisite)

I can agree to that mostly. As for interpretations from hadeeth. I think there are few examples of this. For instance not even the defintion of Islam in the Hadeeth as the five pillars has found its way into the dictionaries I have used. Shafi's interpretation of the word has, but his saying is cited clearly as his interpretation of the word. So dictionaries are not as guilty of this as they have been made out to be on this forum. That is mainly because hadeeths rarely try to redefine words. The scholars are the ones who, expounding upon a word in the Quran, try to redefine it. Hadeeths are just rumors of what the prophet and his companions did and said. I haven't seen much interpretation of single words in the Hadeeth, which is why they rarely find their way into the dictionaries. Now the hadeeth are used for linguistic reference. So if the hadeeth used the word 'to walk'  dictionaries will quote the hadeeths usage of the word to walk if it clearly gives away the correct meaning and usage of the word. But there is nothing wrong with that because the hadeeth is in Classical Arabic as well and can be used as a linguistic reference.  The opinions and facts of the hadeeth are what are dubious because of the fact that they are rumor. You wouldn't doubt the grammar of a a rumor, you doubt the message that it is trying to convey.

Quote
What do you think about MaAAdoodatin particularly denoting few and not counted? (lanes lexicon) Also, just because someone fasts the month does not necessarily mean the WHOLE month.

I wote about this earlier. The word can mean counted/numbered and few. Just like the English word 'numbered' can be used in the expression 'your days are numbered' to mean 'you have only few days left to live.' But that doesn't change the meaning of 'numbered'. I explained everyting in lisan al-arabi (if lane's lexicon only says few then it is an incomplete entry, and that is not the end of the world because you have to check more than oen dictionary soemtiemes to get all the meaings. The dictionary is only as good as its compiler). ANd yes the goal is to fast the whole month. That is the implication. Now that might not happen for many reasons and the Quran gives the scenarios. But I think fasting each day for a whole month is the implied message. Because that would leave it too ambiguous and we wouldn't know what to do. So if some says fast during September, he could mean only to fast for a part of it, but if he doesn't specify any part than the whole month is naturally implied. Again, the fast is daily so that is why compensating for the daily fasts during ramadan is dealt with day by day.

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 12, 2008, 08:06:38 PM
Peace Nun,

What did they call them? It is not like we don't know. There are many Arabian pre-quranic inscriptions that have dates and names of months so this should be easy for you to find. In fact, I think I posted the names here on this forum in the past. Amongst those names you will not find any month named Ramadan.

Why you keep hammering us with un-Quranic proofs? Why do you rely on Hadiths and rumers? Have you been advising people to not follow Hadiths and rely on Quran when speaking about religion?
Are the names you posted came from stories and hadiths or from Quran?

I have never heard two people disagree on when the full moon occured. So yeah I am sure. Also, based on the term "ramadan" the full-moon we should use is going to be more red and lower on the horizon than the nearly full one the next day, even though they might be close in percent illimunated.

 :brickwall: Again...No Quranic proof

A Warrning to you From Your Lord:

وَمِنَ ٱلنَّاسِ مَن يُجَـٰدِلُ فِى ٱللَّهِ بِغَيۡرِ عِلۡمٍ۬ وَلَا هُدً۬ى وَلَا كِتَـٰبٍ۬ مُّنِيرٍ۬ (٨) ثَانِىَ عِطۡفِهِۦ لِيُضِلَّ عَن سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ‌ۖ لَهُ ۥ فِى ٱلدُّنۡيَا خِزۡىٌ۬‌ۖ وَنُذِيقُهُ ۥ يَوۡمَ ٱلۡقِيَـٰمَةِ عَذَابَ ٱلۡحَرِيقِ (٩) ذَٲلِكَ بِمَا قَدَّمَتۡ يَدَاكَ وَأَنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَيۡسَ بِظَلَّـٰمٍ۬ لِّلۡعَبِيدِ (١٠)
And among men is he who disputes about All?h, without knowledge or guidance, or a Book giving light (from All?h), (22-8)
Bending his neck in prid, and leading (others) too astray from the Path of All?h. For him there is disgrace in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection We shall make him taste the torment of burning (Fire). (9)
 That is because of what your hands have sent forth, and verily, All?h is not unjust to (His) slaves. (22-10)


Did you see it this year if it is so easy to tell? Did you ever see it? Probably not. How come every year there are so many disputes about the start and end of so-called Ramadan if it is so easy to tell?

Peace,

Ayman

Happy Ramadan

If you want to sight the Moon yourself, please Feel Free, it is Fun:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/idltemp/current_moon.php

Or will you reject technology as Mulas Do :rotfl:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 12, 2008, 08:33:10 PM
Peace everyone,

I think that at this stage, it is best to summarize all the different viewpoints on the timing of the abstinence so that people can see the essence of each and not get distracted by all the noise. There are basically four points of view:

- The traditional timing:

We all know the traditional timing so I am not going to waste time on explaining it. Also, everyone who has read the great reading knows that the traditional point of view has zero support in the great reading and this is what has prompted many people here to search for a better one based on the great reading. Basically, the traditional timing has the following problems:

1. Assumption that ?ramadan" is meaningless:

It assumes that the word ?ramadan? in 2:185 is meaningless and thus that the god could have said ?bla bla bla?, as long as it came after the month named Shaaban, which brings us to the next point.

2. The traditional timing is 100% arbitrary:

In reality, the only thing that the sectarian Ramadan is based on is when Shaaban occurred and this in turns depends on when Rajab occurred and so on.

So if one follows this back, one can see that in fact Ramadan is dependent on when the new era was made to start. Many people mistakenly believe that Islamic Calendar starts with the alleged date of migration of the prophet. However, even this arbitrary start is false since Muharram was selected as the start of the era and not the supposed date of migration of the prophet.

It is an indisputable fact that had the new era been made to start according to a different marker such as the date of first revelation or the date of birth of the prophet or the date of the final victory of the prophet, etc. then people here who happily embrace the traditional timing would have been fasting in an entirely different month. So for example, had the beginning of the new era been set to 3 years earlier then they would be fasting in what was Shaaban a month earlier. In addition to the beginning of the era, the order of the months in this new era is completely arbitrary. So what sectarians are doing right now is essentially fasting a completely random month and this is a fact that only the most ignorant and dogmatic would dispute.

3. The traditional timing ignores the fact that the year is certainly solar in the great reading:

According to 17:12, daylight and night are used to determine the number of years. Since day and night are a function of the sun and not the moon, then the year is certainly solar or luni-solar.
 
4. The traditional timing violates 9:36:

By assuming that the word ?shahr? means a lunar month and given the fact that the year is solar as shown in (3), the traditionalists actually count 12.3 months in a year and not exactly twelve. 

5. The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1

On the one hand, traditionalists claim that according to 2:185 the great reading was descended in a month while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in one night. This false understanding creates a contradiction in the great reading.

6. The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 2:184

Traditionalists claim that according to 2:185 the abstinence is for a month while 2:184 is clearly saying ?a few days?. Some try to make up excuses by making up a new meaning for ?ma3doodat? as ?any number?. So now they create another problem by implying that the god is giving superfluous useless information. This false understanding also creates another problem further down in 2:185 when the passage mentions ?completing the count?. If the count is already known as ?30 days? or ?29 days? then both ?any number? and ?completing the count? become useless and unnecessary information.

These are just 6 problems with the traditional understanding and I am sure that there are more but I already wasted enough time stating what should be obvious to everyone but unfortunately isn?t as evident by all the confusion. So let me move to the next point of view on timing:

- The timing according to Anwar (ProGod):

Basically, Anwar acknowledges the meaning of ?ramadan? so this way, at least initially, he avoids issues (1), (2) and (3) in the traditional timing. However, his theory still suffers from the following problems and he later reintroduces issues (1), (2) and (3) as we will see below:

1. Anwar?s timing violates 9:36:

He invents an imagined meaning for ?shahr? as a 30 day month when it is an indisputable reality that no lunar or even solar calendar has constant 30 day months. So he actually counts 12.17 of his imaginary months in a year and not exactly 12.

The closest calendar to what Anwar is proposing is the ancient Egyptian calendar, which had twelve 30 day months and a thirteenth month that lasted only 5 days.  This 5 day month was a national holiday that they conducted festivals on.

Unlike ancient Egyptians, Anwar is completely silent on what he is doing with the extra five days. I am really surprised given how several here are jumping to make up non-existent issues to criticize the timing that I proposed that no one has pointed his attention to this glaring issue of the missing five days. It probably has to do with people unconsciously focusing on the point of view that has more merit and is thus more threatening to their status quo. At any rate, back to Anwar?s five vanishing days. If he ignores them as he seems to be doing then his calendar will very quickly be out of sync with the seasons and thus he has unknowingly reintroduced traditional problems (1), (2) and (3) into his theory.

Anwar?s view is one that I am particularly familiar with because at one point perhaps five years ago or so I used to have the same exact view about the timing and the ?30 day? fixed month. Fortunately, I was able to progress with the god?s guidance beyond that understanding.

2. Anwar?s timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1

Anwar claims that according to 2:185 the great reading was descended in ?30 days? while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in one night. So like traditionalists, this false understanding creates a contradiction in the great reading.

3. Anwar?s timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 2:184

This is the same exact traditional problem (6) discussed above in the Traditional Timing section.

- The timing according to Layth:

At one point Layth was embracing the same understanding that I had except that he had the scorching full-moon ending the restricted full-moons instead of beginning them. Now, in his latest article about the so-called Night of the Decree, he has presented a new understanding. The underlying premise of Layth?s understanding is his interpretation of 19:25.

He bases his entire thesis on when the palm trees mature. However, even if we assume that this is the correct interpretation then the harvest season when the palm trees mature varies greatly. There are hundreds of varieties of palm trees (there is over 100 varieties in Iraq alone). They mature at different times and are harvested at different times ranging from June through end of October. So the timing is uncertain. Add this to the fact that the time of the pregnancy is also somewhat variable and we have the interaction of two uncertain variables.

There is also another major problem. When one sees a palm tree with fully ripened dates, you can often see some ripened dates which had fell by themselves to the ground. However, if you have seen a mature palm tree up close and you actually tried to shake it, you would very quickly realize that this is not an easy matter like shaking a twig. Their trunks are not easy to shake even for a fully able strong man, let alone a woman in labor! Why do you think we see people climbing up palm trees to get the fully ripened dates during the harvest season instead of seeing everyone simply hugging a palm tree and shaking it? So how things happened in 19:25 could be very different from what is normal and would more likely involve some divine intervention to cause it to happen. So the entire episode of pregnancy, labor and dates falling down from the palm tree could very well involve some divine intervention and thus be different from what would normally happen.

In addition, Lyth?s timing suffers from the following problems:

1. Assumption that ?ramadan" is meaningless:

Like traditionalists, Layth assumes that the key word ?ramadan? in 2:185 is meaningless and thus its meaning has nothing to do with his timing.

2. Layth?s timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1

Layth goes back to the meaning of ?shahr? as ?month? so this again creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1

As for any other issues, I am not really sure since Layth ends the article with the following statement:

?This night is not only a blessed night in itself, but it also would bless the period around it explaining why the fast has been commanded to occur in the month of Ramadhan in which the Night of Decree is contained?

He doesn?t tell us when this supposed ?month of Ramadhan? starts or ends. So the reader is left with no information whatsoever on when it starts or ends or how long the abstinence is for. Given this deliberate vagueness then Layth is probably aware of those issues and couldn?t address them at that time. I am hopeful that he can address them in the future.

- The timing according to Ayman, Marie, Zenje, and many others who contributed to this present understanding:

First of all I would like to say that all good comes from the god and I don?t deserve any credit except for mistakes. In fact, one of the ideas that led to this understanding came at a time over four years ago when I was holding the same view as Anwar and I was debating with a Sunni on another forum that the month is 30 days. The Sunni fellow kindly pointed to me that one of the meanings of ?shahr? is moon and the moon cycle is not 30 days. I checked Lisan Al-Arab and indeed the meaning of ?full-moon? was right there. This led to shifting my mindset from thinking about ?shahr? in terms of the vague term ?month? and manmade calendars to god-given natural cosmic phenomenon.

Of course, this timing mechanism doesn?t suffer from any of the above problems. It naturally solves the problem of when the night of measure is without making any extra effort or speculating about uncertain factors. It is the only understanding that doesn?t violate 9:36 and in fact based on 9:36 simply and elegantly maintains the timing of the restriction in sync with the seasons.

I hope this helps everyone.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Nun de plume on September 12, 2008, 10:25:53 PM
Peace Ayman,

What did they call them? It is not like we don't know. There are many Arabian pre-quranic inscriptions that have dates and names of months so this should be easy for you to find. In fact, I think I posted the names here on this forum in the past. Amongst those names you will not find any month named Ramadan.

Any evidence the word Ramadan is used in pre-quranic inscriptions, writings etc., as red hot?

If you have information to substantiate your theory then lets see it.


I have never heard two people disagree on when the full moon occured. So yeah I am sure. Also, based on the term "ramadan" the full-moon we should use is going to be more red and lower on the horizon than the nearly full one the next day, even though they might be close in percent illimunated.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/24jun_moonillusion.htm

Editor's Note: If you miss the moon illusion on June 24th, try again on June 25th or 26th -- two nights with nearly-full moons. Or wait until July 23rd when the second full moon of summer arrives.


Did you see it this year if it is so easy to tell? Did you ever see it? Probably not. How come every year there are so many disputes about the start and end of so-called Ramadan if it is so easy to tell?

It is 2008 and we have precise tools; thousand years ago they did not.

http://www.calculatorcat.com/moon_phases/phasenow.php

Why do all lunar calendars start with new moon waxing crescent and end with waning crescent and not full moon to full moon?

Peace
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ramzi on September 13, 2008, 05:13:42 AM

SO for those of us that realize something is wrong with the traditional islamic system it is up for us to honestly and unbiasedly investigate and try to arrive to the truth of the matter. BUt for those who don't realize I'm sure God accepts their fasting as he accepts ours if we our honest about our conclusions.


Yes, I like this statement  :)

Regards

Ramzi
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 13, 2008, 07:56:09 AM
Peace Nun,

Any evidence the word Ramadan is used in pre-quranic inscriptions, writings etc., as red hot?
If you have information to substantiate your theory then lets see it.

There are many words in the great reading not used in pre-quranic inscriptions. So using your logic you might as well reject all of them.

As for the names of months, it is perfectly normal that we have these since many inscriptions end with the author writing "this was written on such date in the month of x in the year x". NONE of those months is named Ramadan. More importantly, the common meaning of the common noun "ramadan" fits in 2:185 so the great reading confirms the meaning. On the other hand, you have ZERO evidence for the traditional timing from the great reading.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/24jun_moonillusion.htm
Editor's Note: If you miss the moon illusion on June 24th, try again on June 25th or 26th -- two nights with nearly-full moons. Or wait until July 23rd when the second full moon of summer arrives.

The nearly full moons on the 25th and 26th were not as symmetric as the 24th one. Also, they will not take a path as low on the horizon as the one on the 24th and thus will not appear as vividly red as that one. So unlike the new-moon there is more than one factor and they all converge at the right time.

It is 2008 and we have precise tools; thousand years ago they did not.
http://www.calculatorcat.com/moon_phases/phasenow.php

The god's commands apply equally a thousand years ago as now. You never saw the new moon and you will probably never see it in your life. So you are arguing about something that you never witnessed and never will. On the other hand, everyone can easily witness the scorching full moon and I have witnessed it every year with my family since 2005.

Why do all lunar calendars start with new moon waxing crescent and end with waning crescent and not full moon to full moon?

All calendars are manmade. The god doesn't give us calendars or prohibit us from using any calendar. He gives us clear cosmic phenomenon for the purpose of timing the fast and the restriction on hunting wild life. Thus, the people of the book timed the major festivals according to the full moon. This further points to the full-moon being the original marker as confirmed in the great reading.

As I said and explained in the article and in the above posts, you have ZERO evidence for the completely arbitrary traditional timing from the great reading. So you are defending something which is indisputably completely arbitrary and entirely based on manmade decisions. Therefore, I would suggest that you study and come up with the correct timing based on the great reading before criticizing from the indefensible traditional position.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 13, 2008, 08:23:05 AM
Peace,

i want to answer Samia first and say that the fast is daily. The fast is only for 1 day duirng daylight hours (hence you break it the same day), and you fast each day for the whole month. So you are not fasting the month, you are fasting during the daylight hours each day during the whole month. So, Quranically, fasting only relates to one day of fasting, because you break your fast each night and start a new one the next day for a month during Ramadan. Hence if you don't fast, you feed one person for every fast you don't do during that month.

Salaam Anwar
You conjecture about shahr = month; two shahrs = two months
1 month = 30 days
>> two months = 60 days. You have no proof of any of the above, not even from Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Then you treat the conjecture as fact and force it on the verse of "ramadaan" !
How about this conjecture:
shahr: full moon
sharain mutataabi3in (two consectutive shahrs): one month
"man shahida minkumul shahra falyasumhu: who ever amongst you witnessed the full moon should fast it) = one day
no fasting = feeding one poor
not fasting one months (two consecutive moons/shahrs = 30 days) feed 60 poor because this is a punishment, so it should be tough).
Better than your conjecture, but still a conjecture.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 13, 2008, 08:49:59 AM
Quote
Salaam Anwar
You conjecture about shahr = month; two shahrs = two months
1 month = 30 days
>> two months = 60 days. You have no proof of any of the above, not even from Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Then you treat the conjecture as fact and force it on the verse of "ramadaan" !
How about this conjecture:
shahr: full moon
sharain mutataabi3in (two consectutive shahrs): one month
"man shahida minkumul shahra falyasumhu: who ever amongst you witnessed the full moon should fast it) = one day
no fasting = feeding one poor
not fasting one months (two consecutive moons/shahrs = 30 days) feed 60 poor because this is a punishment, so it should be tough).
Better than your conjecture, but still a conjecture.

This is not conjecture if we make up for a daily fast by feeding 1 person then making up for two months of fasting by feeding 60 people is making it obvious that 2 months = 60 days.  Hence . . .
Shahr can mean full moon, but i don't think it means that in the Quranic contexts of fasting. Fating any month, like I said is fasting each day within it.  That is why expiation for fasting is done on a daily basis. I don't expect you to want to understand me, if think about it. Read thos scriptures more carefully and see what is being said. The month here is any month during summer. I would disagree as to whether you conjecture is better than my conclusion. However, I have never known you to be very sensible on any issue when it comes to these kinds of discussions. So believe what you will. May God guide us all. For those who see my point, thank you for studying the issue honestly. This is not an issue of making up things. It is an issue of trying to pull what is most logical out of the Quranic verses and put it into practice. I am not conjecture here I am concluding on facts. Those facts are:

1. To fast, Quranically, for a month is to fast each day during that month. That explains why expiation for missed fasts is dealt with on a day by day basis. Technically you are not fasting all of Ramadan because you are fasting the nights. So whereas you can say you are fasting Ramadan as a generality or a stereotype and not be incorrect, the specifics of the matter is that you are only fasting daily, and specifically during the daylight hours of Ramadan. I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.

2. This Quranic usage and its equating 2 months of fasting with 60 daily fasts shows very clearly what the Quran thinks of the word shahr (It's a 30 day period).

3. The word shahr has many different meanings, but the above shows that in the matter of fasting a 30 day period is what is preferred. The Quran's usage of the word shahr seems to be more conducive to a 30 day period than any moon phase. Remember that shahr can mean crescent moon as well. and in that case we can go back to the Islamic method of counting from crescent moon to crescent moon. As I said from the above i think the Quran prefers 30 days for a shahr. That is my conclusion. I think that is pretty simple and don't see how I can be accused of conjecturing here..

4. I am not an anti-traditionalists nor a pro-traditionalists. But I do beileve in logic, evidence and sound analysis of issues. I don't think it's necessary to go left field with my analysis unless there is no other way to make something in the Quran make sense, and stay consistent. I think the interpreting full moon here creates too many inconsitencies, Quranically and logically. But Ayman, Samia and anyone else are entitled to their opinions I just hope we all try to keep it logical, simple and consistent.

I think I've made my pints clear in this topic, see them if you will or dismiss them if you will. The honesty and integrity of your reasons and intentions that lead you to your conclusions is what God will judge you by.

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Nun de plume on September 13, 2008, 09:00:41 AM
Peace Ayman,

As I said and explained in the article and in the above posts, you have ZERO evidence for the completely arbitrary traditional timing from the great reading. So you are defending something which is indisputably completely arbitrary and entirely based on manmade decisions. Therefore, I would suggest that you study and come up with the correct timing based on the great reading before criticizing from the indefensible traditional position.

Why do assume I'm defending all the traditional timings?

I'm looking into this and yours doesn't make sense either. For example, below you state...

Quote
5. The traditional timing creates a contradiction between 2:185 and 97:1

On the one hand, traditionalists claim that according to 2:185 the great reading was descended in a month while 97:1 clearly says that it was descended in one night. This false understanding creates a contradiction in the great reading.

How is that a contradiction?

Is it a contradiction for me to say that I stayed up all last night in the month of September?

Its clear Quran was sent in a night 97:1 ?

97:3 the night Al-Qadr better than a thousand shahr

What contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1

Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ?

Jul 2, 2004   Full at 2:09 PM

Jun 22, 2005    Full at 7:14 AM

Jul 11, 2006   Full at 6:02 AM

Jun 30, 2007   Full at 4:49 PM

Jul 18, 2008   Full at 10:59 AM

Jul 7, 2009   Full at 12:22 PM

Jun 26, 2010   Full at 2:31 PM

Jul 15, 2011   Full at 9:40 AM
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: adjwi on September 13, 2008, 01:35:03 PM
Peace Nun de plume

Peace adjwi,

Use link below and check the full moon for your area after June 21st and notice sometimes they appear in the daytime and varying hours as well.

Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase for Saudi Arabia ? Makkah ? July 2008

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=151&month=7&year=2008&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
Jul 16, 2008      97.8%   
Jul 17, 2008                 
Jul 18, 2008      99.8%   Full at 10:59 AM
Jul 19, 2008      99.7%   


Take a look at the picture I posted earlier and imagine walking outside seeing each of those four moons individually (don't have luxury to compare next to each other) -- how would be able to tell which is the full moon with less than .3% Illuminated Phase difference?

The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) stands out as does waning crescent C...

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3226/2472224091_c9637ac4f8.jpg?v=0)



We're getting there anthony.

Peace

I appreciate your answer and the difficulty you present. Now, my understanding is that a ''Full Moon'' lasts an instant, then it is enters its phase of less illumination. Now if the question is how can you differ from a ''Full Moon''  and one that is becoming or one that was simply by looking, I agree it is indeed difficult. My answer was to look at it's rising and compare that time to that of the setting sun. Upon re-examining anew the schedule calculated for my location, I noticed that the occurance of the ''Full Moon'' (UT) seems to co-incide with a rising ''Full Moon'' simultaneously to that of the setting sun.

The day of the ''Full Moon'' is one of no darkness sort to speak. After the sun set, the moon rises before the darkness gains all of the sky. Afterwards, the next day and so on darkness seems to take hold up to the time when the moon rises. So to know when is the full moon, one is to watch the movie and not simply look at a picture.

The point that Ayman presents and the problem of calendar is interesting however what does this the new timing of fasting do for the people who live ''down under''? Would we now have two ramadans, one in the northern hemisphere and one in the southern? Both regions can't have scorching moons at the same period of the year. How then would the ''Great Reading'' apply to them? And what about the night of destiny? In who's ramadan does it occur in? Ayman, any thoughts?

adjwi

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 13, 2008, 03:42:09 PM
Peace everyone,

I think that at this stage, it is best to summarize all the different viewpoints on the timing of the abstinence so that people can see the essence of each and not get distracted by all the noise. There are basically four points of view:

- The traditional timing:

We all know the traditional timing so I am not going to waste time on explaining it. Also, everyone who has read the great reading knows that the traditional point of view has zero support in the great reading and this is what has prompted many people here to search for a better one based on the great reading. Basically, the traditional timing has the following problems:



Peace all;

My answers to Aymans propaganda is here, http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597103.0, if you are interested to know about his misleading allegations; (this thread is getting to be so confusing)

Ayman, I'm Looking forward for a True debate with you so we can show the truth.
Salam
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 13, 2008, 05:59:15 PM
Peace Nun,

Why do assume I'm defending all the traditional timings?
I'm looking into this and yours doesn't make sense either. For example, below you state...

If you are not defending the traditional timing then how is your understanding different from the traditional one?

How is that a contradiction?
Is it a contradiction for me to say that I stayed up all last night in the month of September?

It is a contradiction to say "I stayed up only all last night" and then say "I stayed up all night in the month of September". Remember we are talking about TWO SEPARATE statements not one statement like you made up in order to make it work. You are intelligent enough to make up one statement to easily make it work and eliminate the contradiction. Don't you think that the god is certainly far more intelligent than you?

Its clear Quran was sent in a night 97:1 ?
97:3 the night Al-Qadr better than a thousand shahr
What contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...

Please see the etymology of the word "ShaHR" and see how the ancient Arabs used the term and its derivatives. In addition to full-moon, it also means something apparent, something bright, something big and round. Do you think that the ancient Arabs thought about the invisible full-moon that has not risen yet from below the horizon as the "ShaHR"?

Also, please look back on this thread and read sister Marie's excellent commentary on 97:3.

I would suggest that you try for yourself next year to witness the scorching full-moon. It is not just about percent illumination. It is about the full-moon taking the lowest path accross the horizon when it rises and thus appearing more red than the next day's full-moon. Therefore, this year in Mecca one had a choice between the full-moon on the 17th and the one on the 18th. However, if you observed the actual full-moon in Mecca you would see that the one on the 17th takes a lower path accross the horizon and rises more slowly to a maximum altitude of 43 degrees while the one on the 18th rises faster to an altitude of 46.6 degrees. So the one on the 17th in addition to being full would also appear more vivid red than the one on the 18th. Moreover, EVERYONE would have seen it and not had to rely on their Mullah or a computer to tell them when the timing is while they never actually witness it their entire lives. The idea is to start the fast the next day after one witnesses the "scorching full-moon". So observing the scorching full-moon in Mecca on the night of July 17th, you would start the fast on July 18th. This is true for all of the northern hemisphere. So whether in the US or in Europe you would have still fasted starting on the 18th. There is no doubt or confusion about that.

The calculations for Mecca below are from the following site:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php

MECCA                                                                         
E 40 00, N22 00                                           
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon                                             
Jul 17, 2008 
Zone:  3h East of Greenwich

 h  m   Altitude    Azimuth    Fraction Illuminated
18:50        1.7       118.1       1.00
19:00        3.6       119.0       1.00
19:10        5.5       120.0       1.00
19:20        7.4       121.1       1.00
19:30        9.3       122.1       1.00
19:40       11.2       123.3       1.00
19:50       13.0       124.4       1.00
20:00       14.9       125.7       1.00
20:10       16.7       127.0       1.00
20:20       18.5       128.3       1.00
20:30       20.2       129.7       1.00
20:40       22.0       131.2       1.00
20:50       23.6       132.7       1.00
21:00       25.3       134.3       1.00
21:10       26.9       136.0       1.00
21:20       28.4       137.8       1.00
21:30       29.9       139.7       1.00
21:40       31.4       141.6       1.00
21:50       32.8       143.7       1.00
22:00       34.1       145.8       1.00
22:10       35.3       148.0       1.00
22:20       36.5       150.3       1.00
22:30       37.6       152.8       1.00
22:40       38.6       155.3       1.00
22:50       39.5       157.9       1.00
23:00       40.4       160.6       1.00
23:10       41.1       163.4       1.00
23:20       41.7       166.2       1.00
23:30       42.2       169.1       1.00
23:40       42.6       172.1       1.00
23:50       42.9       175.1       1.00
00:00       43.0       178.1       1.00
00:10       43.0       181.2       1.00
00:20       43.0       184.2       1.00


MECCA                                                                         
E 40 00, N22 00                                           
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon                                             
Jul 18, 2008 
Zone:  3h East of Greenwich

 h  m   Altitude    Azimuth    Fraction Illuminated
19:30        1.3       114.3       1.00
19:40        3.2       115.2       1.00
19:50        5.1       116.2       1.00
20:00        7.1       117.2       1.00
20:10        9.1       118.2       1.00
20:20       11.1       119.3       1.00
20:30       13.0       120.4       1.00
20:40       14.9       121.6       1.00
20:50       16.9       122.9       1.00
21:00       18.7       124.2       1.00
21:10       20.6       125.5       1.00
21:20       22.4       127.0       1.00
21:30       24.2       128.5       1.00
21:40       26.0       130.0       1.00
21:50       27.7       131.7       1.00
22:00       29.4       133.4       1.00
22:10       31.0       135.2       1.00
22:20       32.6       137.2       1.00
22:30       34.2       139.2       1.00
22:40       35.6       141.3       1.00
22:50       37.0       143.5       1.00
23:00       38.4       145.9       1.00
23:10       39.6       148.3       1.00
23:20       40.8       150.9       1.00
23:30       41.9       153.6       1.00
23:40       42.8       156.3       1.00
23:50       43.7       159.2       1.00
00:00       44.5       162.2       1.00
00:10       45.2       165.3       1.00
00:20       45.7       168.5       1.00
00:30       46.1       171.7       1.00
00:40       46.4       175.0       1.00
00:50       46.6       178.3       1.00

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 13, 2008, 06:18:34 PM
Peace Adjwi,

The point that Ayman presents and the problem of calendar is interesting however what does this the new timing of fasting do for the people who live ''down under''? Would we now have two ramadans, one in the northern hemisphere and one in the southern? Both regions can't have scorching moons at the same period of the year. How then would the ''Great Reading'' apply to them? And what about the night of destiny? In who's ramadan does it occur in? Ayman, any thoughts?

Those questions have been answered several times on this thread. The fact that the restricted full-moons only purpose is wild life hunting restriction and wild life follows the solar cycle tells us that the period of the restriction must be different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres. Everything has a purpose. The idea that everyone has to fast together to achieve "unity" is false as evident in the highly disunited and self-destructing so-called Islamic world today.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 13, 2008, 06:28:19 PM
Peace aymen, and all

There is only one place to worship God at...    

He sees you looking to the sky; now He will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you...

You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple...

All of you...

And were ever you be or werever you at, or werever you go out, you shall set yourselves towards it...

So now let us ask this, traditional or not:

Are the believers fasting in mecca??? In accord to the command in 2:183-186 .??? Or at least do they think they are fasting in accord to it if you are in opposition...?

 :peace:   8)

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 13, 2008, 06:38:08 PM
Peace Anthony,

There is only one place to worship God at...

No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.

He sees you looking to the sky; now He will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you...
You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple...
All of you...
And were ever you be or werever you at, or werever you go out, you shall set yourselves towards it...

Do you face a Sacred Temple "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.

So now let us ask this, traditional or not:
Are the believers fasting in mecca??? In accord to the command in 2:183-186 .??? Or at least do they think they are fasting in accord to it if you are in opposition...?

No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2:183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2:185 as meaningless.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 13, 2008, 06:53:06 PM
Peace Anthony,

No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.

Do you face a Sacred Temple  :brickwall: "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.

No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2:183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2:185 as meaningless.

Peace,

Ayman

He chooses to worshiped at the Sacred Temple. And He is owed by the people to make pilgramage to it,  :P and whoever rejects, then God is Rich, the Praiseworthy...

And you shall face that direction when you pray...and that should be were you plan to go... :P

were are the sacrafices slatered at?   were is the pilgramage to? What is the focal point? Towards the Temple... ;D

Do not sacrafise goat demons in just any field ect...There is only one place to do this at and to make pilgramage to...

And my Lords hands are wide open, spending as He pleases...I didnt say He was an idol stored in a black stone box...My Lord will destroy every idol...

And my focal point is that direction, towards the Sacred Temple :P


Yes I do. :P

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Sibute on September 14, 2008, 01:58:23 AM
Hi,
Plume wrote
Quote
What contradicts is to compare a ?night? (i.e. time sunset to dawn) better than a thousand full moon snapshots which occur half the time during "the day" as did the full moons after the summer solstice in Makkah, Saudi Arabia for a brief moment the five prior years in a row and will likewise do so in the next three years...

Night is actually measured accurately by seamen as :
Nautical Twilight Starts/Ends
Nautical twilight is the period when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon, when bright stars are still visible in clear weather and the horizon is becoming visible. It is too dark to do outdoor activities without additional lighting.


thx.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Nun de plume on September 14, 2008, 02:23:10 AM
Peace Ayman,

If you are not defending the traditional timing then how is your understanding different from the traditional one?

I'm still working on it.

It is a contradiction to say "I stayed up only all last night" and then say "I stayed up all night in the month of September". Remember we are talking about TWO SEPARATE statements not one statement like you made up in order to make it work. You are intelligent enough to make up one statement to easily make it work and eliminate the contradiction. Don't you think that the god is certainly far more intelligent than you?

God gave us intelligence and we know days/nights = months = years.

46:15 And We have enjoined on man to be dutiful and kind to his parents. His mother bears him with hardship and she brings him forth with hardship, and the bearing of him, and the weaning of him is thirty (30) months, till when he attains full strength and reaches forty years...

Night is actually measured accurately by seamen as :
Nautical Twilight Starts/Ends
Nautical twilight is the period when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon, when bright stars are still visible in clear weather and the horizon is becoming visible. It is too dark to do outdoor activities without additional lighting.


thx.


Hi Sibute --

I go by Quran definition of night not seaman (I was one at age 16 btw) how dark is the night.

20:130 So bear patiently what they say, and glorify the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day, that you may become pleased with the reward which Allah shall give you.

See thread...

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596792.msg177611#msg177611

Thanks

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Sibute on September 14, 2008, 03:17:44 AM
Hi Plume,

20:130 So bear patiently what they say, and glorify the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day, that you may become pleased with the reward which Allah shall give .

Thank you for this wonderful quote plume but my point is night is not equal to sunrise - sunset but from the quote above it it clearly distincts between rising, setting and the hours of the night.

All scientific discoveries will relate back to the quran whether it be a seamen,scientist or anyone who seeks knowledge of this universe.
i can see that you are well verse with quotes from the quran and thats good but one should also refelect on how people with knowledge should also be sought after when it conforms with what quran is telling us.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Nun de plume on September 14, 2008, 04:25:50 AM
Hi Sibute,

You are welcome -- I read it as night being exactly from sunset to dawn.

91:1-3

And by the sun and its brightness; 
And by the moon as it follows it (the sun);
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun); 

(http://i34.tinypic.com/2qun98y.jpg)

Peace

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 14, 2008, 06:57:57 AM
Peace Anthony,

No way. The god is not an idol stored inside a black stone box.

Do you face a Sacred Temple "wherever you be or wherever you at, or wherever you go out"? I think not.

No one (believer or otherwise) anywhere (Mecca or anywhere) can fast according to 2:183-186 if they take the key word "ramadan" in 2:185 as meaningless.

Peace,

Ayman

Let me ask you in other words:


Has it been announed that it is time to fast?  :wow

Did you witness the month/moon ( of " Ramadan) ?  :o  yes, I believe you surely did. :P

And are they fasting in Meccah? ( celebrating Ramadan fast ) ?  :P
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Sibute on September 14, 2008, 09:10:34 AM
Quote
Hi Sibute,

You are welcome -- I read it as night being exactly from sunset to dawn.

91:1-3

And by the sun and its brightness; 
And by the moon as it follows it (the sun);
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun); 


Well I guess when the sun is concealed just below the horizon ( zero degrees) with its light beaming to the observer like you during sunset it must mean you break your fast??

thank you.

Title: Why the Moon changes color
Post by: progod on September 14, 2008, 09:24:01 AM
WHY THE MOON CHANGES COLOR

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color)

http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/ (http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/)


http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/03aug_dreamyeclipse.htm (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/03aug_dreamyeclipse.htm)

Godbless,
Anwar
 I'll see if i can find some more articles, from more scientific sources.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Nun de plume on September 14, 2008, 09:56:59 AM


Well I guess when the sun is concealed just below the horizon ( zero degrees) with its light beaming to the observer like you during sunset it must mean you break your fast??

thank you.



If the sun is concealed below the horizon then its direct light cannot beam the observer and I break my fast.

Likewise when it is unconcealed at dawn and its white thread is beaming at the observer I start my fast.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Why the Moon changes color
Post by: ayman on September 14, 2008, 10:03:55 AM
WHY THE MOON CHANGES COLOR
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_moon_change_color)
http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/ (http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moonorange/)

Quote from above:

When the moon is near the horizon, the moonlight must pass through much more atmosphere than when the moon is directly overhead. By the time the moonlight reaches your eyes, the blue, green, and purple pieces of visible light have been scattered away by air molecules. That's why you only see yellow, orange, or red.

It is a scientific fact that the full-moon around the summer solstice takes the lowest path accross the horizon. This is why it appears more vivid red than any other full-moon. This fact was explained in my article and people can easily confirm it.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Ahmad Bilal on September 14, 2008, 10:29:45 AM
And you shall face that direction when you pray...and that should be were you plan to go...

Where in the reading does it say we must face "Mecca" when we pray? And where does the reading say we must go to "Mecca" to make pilgrimage?

Peace,

Ahmad
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Sibute on September 14, 2008, 10:37:03 AM

Ok plume i cant argue with that when u decide when u want to break your fast and call it a night as long as its conceal.

thank you.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 14, 2008, 12:28:01 PM
Where in the reading does it say we must face "Mecca" when we pray? And where does the reading say we must go to "Mecca" to make pilgrimage?

Peace,

Ahmad

Were is  the House of God at?  The place of Abraham??? I thought it wa s mecca...
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Umm Tariq on September 14, 2008, 12:56:31 PM
Peace be upon all,

Br. Ayman, I'd like to say thanks for that post on showing the differences in the different opinions on sharh ramadan, it was a useful way for me to look at the issue more deeply.  As of now, I am convinced that sharh, as used in the reading, translates to full moon in all of the reading.  I have noticed that for those who take the meaning to be 'month', containing anywhere from 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons.  However, I do have one question for you about the first part of the verse 34:12: "And for Sulaiman the wind ghuduwuhaa shahr and rawaahuhaa shahr..."  If one translates it using 'month' then the translations that I've seen have to add the word 'journey' which is not mentioned in the verse as far as I see.  If you translate it as 'full moon' then how do you understand this verse?  ??? I do not know a whole lot about the science of wind and all so maybe I am missing something, I don't know.  However, I clearly do not like and do not accept when translators add words to seemingly make a verse more complete and clear as if it wasn't already!

The next points that I would like to share with everyone is what I also see as contradictions involving the meaning 'month' for shahr in the reading.  These points are also what really convinces me that 'full moon' is the correct meaning.

The 4 verses in question are 2:184, 2:228, 9:2 and 9:37.  In 2:184, I believe that the word shaheda lends a lot of weight that shahr means full moon which is something that can be witnessed/ seen.  Samia, I also checked about the usage of shaheda in the book and I agree that in this verse it has to do with witnessing/ seeing something 'physically'. It hasn't made any sense to me 'witness/ see a month'.  Looking at the Saudi sunni translations that I have with me, they add the words 'the new moon of' before 'month'.  This is another indication to me that something is not right since the god uses the word for 'new moon', as they understand it, in the reading 'ahillah' but He is not using it in this verse, why?  However, if the meaning is full moon then there is no need to 'perfect' it.

In 2:228, the god mentions that the divorced women wait for 3 quruu' which means menstrual cycles.  As I understand it, when you see that the first cycle has begun, you begin counting.  The second comes, you still wait and when the 3rd begins your waiting is over.  This count is also by a clear 'seeing' something that can't be mistaken.  That would be in minimum, equivalent to '2 months' time as we understand month.  However, in verse 65:4, the god says that for the women that don't have menses anymore, if you doubt, then their count is 3 ashhur and for those who didn't have a menstrual cycle.  If this means '3 months' then these 2 verses don't agree.  If '3 months' is correct then why the difference?  If we take '3 full moons' then that also equals to verse 2:228 in the minimum.  I don't see any reason why it should be different and I believe the clue is in the words 'if you doubt'. 

In 9:2, the god tells those who ascribe partners with Him that they can go through the earth 4 ashhur.  When I was a sunni following the lunar calendar as they do, they teach that the '4 forbidden months' are Thul Qa'dah, Thul Hijjah, Muharram, 11th, 12th and 1st month respectively and then Rajab the 9th month.  When I read this verse for meaning the first time I noticed that these '4 ashhur' should be consecutive, it wouldn't make any sense otherwise.  Then in verse 9:5, the god confirms that these '4 ashhur' are the 4 hurum.  How can I follow a lunar calendar that has separated the 4 hurum and also rotates through the seasons thereby constantly changing the 4 hurum?  Lastly on this point, the 4 ashhur hurum is either '4 months' or '4 full moons' which is equivalent to 3 months time.  The 4 seasons lasts for about 3 months each correct?

Regarding verse 9:37, right after the god tells us about the count of 12 ashhur, it seems to me that if the people at the time of the revelation of the book were going by counting full moons, and there is sometimes this extra 13th full moon the god tells us that to sometimes count it and sometimes not is an increase in disbelief.  Correct me if I am wrong but what I also get out of this is that when people decide to use a certain 'calendar' per se, at least in our times, they don't make it sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 since it's a 'calendar' that is used to regulate the systems we follow.  The traditional sunni lunar calendar stays 12 months, by some names that I don't know where they came from and doesn't even recognize the seasons as meaning anything related to the great reading which is a big crime.  Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?

These are just my observations regarding this issue and I am eager for anyone to reply.  I want to further my understanding and be certain with whatever conclusion I come to based on strong evidence from the god's book.

Umm Tariq
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: anthonywallace on September 14, 2008, 01:18:58 PM



2:185 The Quran was sent down in the red moon, to guide the people and to clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge . So one should fast the entire moon, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever is ill or on a journey, then finish on different days . God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship ; and so that you may complete the term , and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.


 8)
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 14, 2008, 03:48:05 PM
Salam everyone:




 As of now, I am convinced that sharh, as used in the reading, translates to full moon in all of the reading.  I have noticed that for those who take the meaning to be 'month', containing anywhere from 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons. 

 If You follow the Quran, you will be calculating each Month  period using the Moon Cycle. But if you try to use Ayman way, which is not the Quran way, you will be confused.
The Moon Cycle is from the Waxing Crescent stages to the Next Waxing Crescent stage, which is EQUAL IN NUMBER of DAYS TO:
1- Full Moon Stage to the next Full Moon Stage;
2- from Wening Crescent to the next Wening Crescent

Now why are you so confused like Ayman in number of days per Moon Month?

The Number of Days will be the same if you were Honest when calculating; but Ayman is trying to Cheat Allah in Fasting by discounting the Month Days to 10 days.
  :)


Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 14, 2008, 04:13:41 PM
Peace be upon all,

Br. Ayman, I'd like to say thanks for that post on showing the differences in the different opinions on sharh ramadan, it was a useful way for me to look at the issue more deeply. 
 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons. 

 How can I follow a lunar calendar that has separated the 4 hurum and also rotates through the seasons thereby constantly changing the 4 hurum?  Lastly on this point, the 4 ashhur hurum is either '4 months' or '4 full moons' which is equivalent to 3 months time.  The 4 seasons lasts for about 3 months each correct?


These are just my observations regarding this issue and I am eager for anyone to reply.  I want to further my understanding and be certain with whatever conclusion I come to based on strong evidence from the god's book.

Umm Tariq

Salaam Umm Tariq
As you may have read I bowed out of this debate about hot Ramadan because I am 100% convinced that the solstice moon has no bearing on ascertaining the month of fasting.
However you have raised some very interesting questions and I too have been thinking on those points so I am going to put here my understanding. It could be completely flawed but, in the interest of finding out the truth, we must all let go off our egos and work together.
2:184. (Fasting) for a fixed number of days; ...
Please note that here the name of the month of Ramadan is not mentioned.

Please note that in this verse word Ramadan is mentioned and that this is the time of the great event when the Qur?an was sent down as guidance for mankind.
This was the great event for the whole mankind, it was hot in northern hemisphere and cold in the southern hemisphere that is when the night of degree originated. It happened therefore that this single event fell in different seasons in different parts of the world. We cannot make it a seasonal event related to Arabia only as that would mean the event  should take place again and again and again for rest of the world. No it was one time for the whole world and if we make it a summer event, expecting everyone to celebrate it only in the summer, it becomes a local event not a universal one.

We sent it down during a Blessed NIGHT: for We (ever) wish to warn (against Evil).
The moon (not full) is used to calculate events a timing device used to mark fixed periods of time: 2:189

However it's  possible that the puzzle could be solved if we reflect on how Ayman concludes his article: http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htmby .....? Although we answered several questions, as usual many questions remain. For example, what is the difference, if any, between "3am" and "sana(t)"? Both are equally translated as "year" but this seems unlikely because of 29:14 where both are used.?

Talking about the age of Nuh (Noah) both the words for year are used in this verse but the count together is coming up to a thousand less fifty years, and no one can possibly live for that long. 
So here is the clue: if we were to combine the calculation of "3am" and "sana(t)"  it would be unrealistically long : 29:14 

Could the term "sana(t)" be based on the summer solstice calculation as in Ayman;s formula? ???
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 14, 2008, 04:51:58 PM
Regarding verse 9:37, right after the god tells us about the count of 12 ashhur, it seems to me that if the people at the time of the revelation of the book were going by counting full moons, and there is sometimes this extra 13th full moon the god tells us that to sometimes count it and sometimes not is an increase in disbelief.  Correct me if I am wrong but what I also get out of this is that when people decide to use a certain 'calendar' per se, at least in our times, they don't make it sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 since it's a 'calendar' that is used to regulate the systems we follow. 

Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?

Cont:
Now in the next few verses we see the moon and the sun used together to know the count of years, in other words luni-solar years and ?Sana(t)? is used for year and it?s referring to seasonal events seeking bounty harvest etc and also for the computation of the year
10:5 , 17:12, seeking bounty ie harvest.

12:47 He said: "You will plant regularly for seven years, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
For planting here sana(t) is used

12:48 Then there will come seven after that which are severe and which will consume all that you plant except for what you have stored."
Here neither  3am nor sana(t)"is used, just seven. Could the ? seven? here mean the combination of both ???

12:49 Then after that will come a year in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again
Now for  a year 3am is used  and here its not about harvesting or sacred months but the whole year ie 3am.

From the above observations  I understand that "sana(t)" is used when referring to seasonal events ie harvest or restricted months and it is not fixed for the whole mankind but rotates according to movement of sun and the moon so in this type of calculations the summer solstice may be used As restricted/sacred month was observed by the pagans too. I wonder if sana(t) is the year which was used when it was divided into four/six season were used in a year prior to Islam.
And 3am is the years which take into account of seasonal as well as fixed term and making the total number of months 12.

To get the desired result one could adjust sana(t) into 3am so that it adds up to twelve months.Now the mind-blowing thing is to work out how to arrive at 12 as the number of months using both calculations to get the resulting year ? 3am?. But how do we use both counts for seasonal events like sacred month and fix term count which marks the event like  a Blessed NIGHT linked to fasting to arrive at 12 monhts .
If we study the verse 9:36. we see 3am or sana(t)" is not use just twelve months and we assume its same way of counting months that we arrive at twelve to make 3am or is it combination of two ???
I believe The verse 9:37 is not about  sacred months; that's just what the translator assumed. I believe its simply talking of postponement or delay of additional months and, if we use Ayman?s summer solstice count then count up to twelve full moons and disregard the 13th. This may amount to disbelief as the year thus becomes un-Quranic so, yes we may include his calculation but only for seasonal events.

Lets reflect on:
kamilayni  2:233 The mothers shall give suck to their offspring for two whole YEARS, if the father desires to complete the term
31:14 AAamayni -- mother bear him, and in YEARS twain was his weaning:
sineena AAadadan 18:11 Then We draw (a veil) over their ears, for a number of YEARS, in the Cave, (so that they heard not):
Amadan -18:12 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried!
Sineena 18:25 So they stayed in their Cave three hundred YEARS, and (some) add nine (more)

Again, as I always say, there is such brain pool here; if only we could use it to benefit our deen and just prick a little pin into our inflated egos.

 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 14, 2008, 06:49:38 PM
Peace,

Ayman what are you cues for proving that the Arabs of that day used scorching/very hot to refer to the color yellow or organge. (red seems to be reserved for the lunar eclipse time only.)If I sa a moon in constant heat/scorching, why would that automatically mean an orange moon? Do we have any other uses orangish or yellowing colors being refered to as ramadan in Older Arabic sources? When thes sun rises red/orange we don't have any reference to it being hotter. Do we say that the horizon is hot or on fire before sunrise or after sunset? I see you combining the word Ramadan with the English use of blaze or blazen. But whereas blaze is used from tempers, to lively colors, to fire, to heat, can Ramid be used in this way? I will be double checking as well. Also how could we fast during this constantly blazing moon if we are commanded to fast during daylight hours, and not at night?

Godbless,
Anwar

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 14, 2008, 07:03:08 PM
Peace,

Ayman what are you cues for proving that the Arabs of that day used scorching/very hot to refer to the color yellow or organge. (red seems to be reserved for the lunar eclipse time only.)

Peace Progod:
Good point; please let me remind you of a verse where God was refering to something similar to what you say; please note that he did not use the Word Rammadan:

 حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغۡرِبَ ٱلشَّمۡسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغۡرُبُ فِى عَيۡنٍ حَمِئَةٍ۬ وَوَجَدَ عِندَهَا قَوۡمً۬ا‌ۗ قُلۡنَا يَـٰذَا ٱلۡقَرۡنَيۡنِ إِمَّآ أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّآ أَن تَتَّخِذَ فِيہِمۡ حُسۡنً۬ا (٨٦)

Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of Blazen (Scorching) water. And he found near it a people. We said : "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (18-86)

Please note the Frequancy of the Words in the Quran that were used to refer to Hot (or scorching).


 :peace:
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 14, 2008, 08:04:39 PM
Peace Anwar,

Ayman what are you cues for proving that the Arabs of that day used scorching/very hot to refer to the color yellow or organge. (red seems to be reserved for the lunar eclipse time only.)If I sa a moon in constant heat/scorching, why would that automatically mean an orange moon? Do we have any other uses orangish or yellowing colors being refered to as ramadan in Older Arabic sources? When thes sun rises red/orange we don't have any reference to it being hotter. Do we say that the horizon is hot or on fire before sunrise or after sunset? I see you combining the word Ramadan with the English use of blaze or blazen. But whereas blaze is used from tempers, to lively colors, to fire, to heat, can Ramid be used in this way?

I think that the word "scorching/ramadan" seems to be kind of like "red hot" in English. Thus, we hear in the Classical Arabic dictionaries the word used to describe what is commonly known as "pink eye" or "red eye" in English:


فلم تَكْتَحِلْ حتى كادَتْ عيناها تَرْمَضانِ،
تَشَكَّتْ عَيْنَيْها حتى كادتْ تَرْمَضُ،


Clearly, the above is a reference to the color and how the eye appears and not literally to the eye being blazing or buring or hot.

The same concept is used in relation to a woman whose thighs are rubbed:


والرَّمِضةُ: المرأةُ التي تَحُكُّ فَخِذُها فَخِذَها الأُخْرَى


Clearly, here it is again about the woman's thighs appearing red from the rubbing.

I will be double checking as well.

Thank you. The more checking the better.

Also how could we fast during this constantly blazing moon if we are commanded to fast during daylight hours, and not at night?

Exactly, we are told afterwards to fast during daylight hours and the length of the fast (complete count of a few days). So the initial information about "shahr ramadan" is simply the marker and not a command to fast an entire lunar month (30 or 29 days and nights), otherwise the info about when and how many days to fast would be redundant or contradicting this command.

As a side note, there is also additional info in Classical Arabic dictionaries that link "ramadan" specifically to hunting. This is significant given the fact that the restricted period is about hunting:

والتَّرَمُّضُ: صَيْدُ الظبي في وقت الهاجرة تتبعه حتى إِذا تَفَسَّخَت قوائمُه من شدة الحر أَخذته.

وترَمَّضْنا الصيْدَ: رَمَيْناه في الرمضاء حتى احترقت قوائمُه فأَخذناه.


This inhumane way of hunting would have a significant negative impact on the preservation of wild life and would very quickly decimate it. Apparently, the Arabs were using this inhumane way of hunting during this period of hunting restriction.

5:94
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لَيَبْلُوَنَّكُمُ اللّهُ بِشَيْءٍ مِّنَ الصَّيْدِ تَنَالُهُ أَيْدِيكُمْ وَرِمَاحُكُمْ لِيَعْلَمَ اللّهُ مَن يَخَافُهُ بِالْغَيْبِ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ


Notice how 5:94 says "your hands" would reach the wild game. This means that it was an easy catch. The only time a prey is normally such an easy catch is when it is exhausted and especially when it is young. This is far more likely to happen during the time of extreme heat when young animals who have recently been born are already suffering from the heat.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 14, 2008, 08:35:28 PM
Peace Anwar,

I think that the word "scorching/ramadan" seems to be kind of like "red hot" in English. Thus, we hear in the Classical Arabic dictionaries the word used to describe what is commonly known as "pink eye" or "red eye" in English:


فلم تَكْتَحِلْ حتى كادَتْ عيناها تَرْمَضانِ،
تَشَكَّتْ عَيْنَيْها حتى كادتْ تَرْمَضُ،


Clearly, the above is a reference to the color and how the eye appears and not literally to the eye being blazing or buring or hot.

The same concept is used in relation to a woman whose thighs are rubbed:


والرَّمِضةُ: المرأةُ التي تَحُكُّ فَخِذُها فَخِذَها الأُخْرَى


Clearly, here it is again about the woman's thighs appearing red from the rubbing.

As a side note, there is also additional info in Classical Arabic dictionaries that link "ramadan" specifically to hunting. This is significant given the fact that the restricted period is about hunting:

والتَّرَمُّضُ: صَيْدُ الظبي في وقت الهاجرة تتبعه حتى إِذا تَفَسَّخَت قوائمُه من شدة الحر أَخذته.

وترَمَّضْنا الصيْدَ: رَمَيْناه في الرمضاء حتى احترقت قوائمُه فأَخذناه.


This inhumane way of hunting would have a significant negative impact on the preservation of wild life and would very quickly decimate it. Apparently, the Arabs were using this inhumane way of hunting during this period of hunting restriction.


Peace Ayman;
Where are your Quranic Proof?
The Quran Shows you in a very well-Established verse that the Hot or the Pink is not the Word "Rammadan".


 حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغۡرِبَ ٱلشَّمۡسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغۡرُبُ فِى عَيۡنٍ حَمِئَةٍ۬ وَوَجَدَ عِندَهَا قَوۡمً۬ا‌ۗ قُلۡنَا يَـٰذَا ٱلۡقَرۡنَيۡنِ إِمَّآ أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّآ أَن تَتَّخِذَ فِيہِمۡ حُسۡنً۬ا (٨٦)

Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of Blazen (Scorching) water. And he found near it a people. We said : "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (18-86)

Here God discribes the color of the water at the time of the Sun Set (when the sun is reflecting on the water surface) as "Hammeaa" and not Rammadan.

The dictionary can not be above Quran...don't you agree.

 :)
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: truthseeker11 on September 14, 2008, 09:11:10 PM
Peace everyone,

I have been following this thread with great interest and wanted to jump in and point out some additional defects in progod's theories and logic in addition to the ones mentioned by ayman.

Progod makes the following claims in an earlier post:

Quote from: progod
58:4 However, he who does not have the where?withal shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed sixty needy ones

Here it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people

5:89 is the vers that has been use against me in the argument. It reads: 
Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.

But I have continued to argrue here that in this verse we are not expiating any fast. The breaking of our oaths is worth feeding 10 people in need or JUST clothing them, or freeing someone in bondage.  But if we can't do that we can fast for 3 days. So here we are not making up for any fasting. Whereas before if we can't fast then we expiate for the fast. That is the difference.

The parts of his quote in red are completely wrong and misleading and I hope that was not intentional on his part.

Feeding 60 people is not compensation for fasting for "shahrain", but is a compensation for estranging one's wife per 58:3, if one cannot fast for "shahrain" for estranging one's wife. Both fasting for "shahrain", and feeding 60 people are compensation for estranging one's wife.

5:89 and 58:3-4 are similar in the sense that in both verses, feeding people is not compensation for fasting, and fasting for a few days is not compensation for feeding people, but BOTH actions are compensation for something else. If feeding 60 people is equivalent to fasting for "shahrain" according to 58:4 and from this it is deduced that feeding one person = fasting one day, then using the same logic, according to 5:89 feeding 3 people would be equivalent to fasting 10 days which gives an equation of one person = 3.33 days. Therefore, it cannot be said that according to The Qur'an, feeding one person is always equivalent to fasting one day.

This collapses the foundation of progod's theory.

A second defect in his theory is that what if a lunar month is 28 days ? How would a "Quranic month" be equal to 30 days then ?

A third defect is that 2:185 asks us to witness/"shahida" a "shahr". How can one "witness" a "month", which is an arbitrary man-made time period ? Does an angel blow a trumpet at the start of a month ? or does the temperature suddenly change at the onset of a month ? or is there a blinding flash of light at the start of a month ?  :P

Also I am surprised to see why belalhammad is unable to realize that fighting in the hot month of June immediately before the "shahru ramadhan" could also be classified as "after" the restricted months of the hot season, and would thus have no bearing on fasting being in the period of scorching heat.

I would like to remain an interested observer without engaging in any debate unless some other point comes up. May God guide us all to the truth.
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: belH on September 14, 2008, 09:36:56 PM
Also I am surprised to see why belalhammad is unable to realize that fighting in the hot month of June immediately before the "shahru ramadhan" could also be classified as "after" the restricted months of the hot season, and would thus have no bearing on fasting being in the period of scorching heat.


Peace;
Put yourself in the Prophet postion, would you prepare for a war four weeks before the 4 restricted month?
Verse 9-81 is after the 4 restricted Months, when the prophet had 8 month to go for a very important and hard war.
9-81 is the verse that collapsed the foundation of Ayman's theory, as you said in regard of Progod.

Peace everyone,

I have been following this thread with great interest

But how come that you have a very deep knowledge of Ayman theory and your profile says that you just registered Today at 04:25:10 AM.

Just a Question? :confused:

Anyway welcome to the Fourm ;D

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 14, 2008, 11:19:11 PM
Salaam belal

The Quran Shows you in a very well-Established verse that the Hot or the Pink is not the Word "Rammadan".


 حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغۡرِبَ ٱلشَّمۡسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغۡرُبُ فِى عَيۡنٍ حَمِئَةٍ۬ وَوَجَدَ عِندَهَا قَوۡمً۬ا‌ۗ قُلۡنَا يَـٰذَا ٱلۡقَرۡنَيۡنِ إِمَّآ أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّآ أَن تَتَّخِذَ فِيہِمۡ حُسۡنً۬ا (٨٦)

Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of Blazen (Scorching) water. And he found near it a people. We said : "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (18-86)

Here God discribes the color of the water at the time of the Sun Set (when the sun is reflecting on the water surface) as "Hammeaa" and not Rammadan.

The dictionary can not be above Quran...don't you agree.

 :)

Where is your qur'aanic proof that "hami'a" is a description of colour/blazing?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Umm Tariq on September 15, 2008, 02:04:51 AM
Peace all,

Peace be upon all,

Br. Ayman, I'd like to say thanks for that post on showing the differences in the different opinions on sharh ramadan, it was a useful way for me to look at the issue more deeply.  As of now, I am convinced that sharh, as used in the reading, translates to full moon in all of the reading.  I have noticed that for those who take the meaning to be 'month', containing anywhere from 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons.  However, I do have one question for you about the first part of the verse 34:12: "And for Sulaiman the wind ghuduwuhaa shahr and rawaahuhaa shahr..."  If one translates it using 'month' then the translations that I've seen have to add the word 'journey' which is not mentioned in the verse as far as I see.  If you translate it as 'full moon' then how do you understand this verse?  ??? I do not know a whole lot about the science of wind and all so maybe I am missing something, I don't know.  However, I clearly do not like and do not accept when translators add words to seemingly make a verse more complete and clear as if it wasn't already!

Br. Ayman, maybe you missed this.

Salam everyone:

Now why are you so confused like Ayman in number of days per Moon Month?

Peace Br. belalhammad,

I'm not confused it's just that I haven't personally began from one full moon and then counted the number of days between it and the next.  I just wanted to leave open the possibility that it could differ.  The topic however is about the full moon itself and using it as a marker.


The Number of Days will be the same if you were Honest when calculating; but Ayman is trying to Cheat Allah in Fasting by discounting the Month Days to 10 days.
  :)


How did you conclude that this opinion is discounting 'month days' to 10 days?  We are not saying that a 'month' is ten days.  We are saying that 'shahr' should be translated as 'full moon', using it as a marker to begin the fasting and then the number of days total is based on the additional analysis of the verses. 

I hope this clarifies what I am discussing.  I was also looking for those who could answer directly the questions that I raised in my post if possible, those who take shahr to mean 'month'.

It could be completely flawed but, in the interest of finding out the truth, we must all let go off our egos and work together.

Peace Sis Farida,

Please Farida, you made two such comments and I really don't believe that it helps any.  You are making an assumption that all of us here have egos just because we disagree and I am offended by that.  I seek refuge with the god from arrogance and I hate it as well.  I am posting here in all honestly to aid in arriving at the truth so please don't assume otherwise without proof as the god has told us that much suspicion is sin. 


Please note that in this verse word Ramadan is mentioned and that this is the time of the great event when the Qur?an was sent down as guidance for mankind.
This was the great event for the whole mankind, it was hot in northern hemisphere and cold in the southern hemisphere that is when the night of degree originated. It happened therefore that this single event fell in different seasons in different parts of the world. We cannot make it a seasonal event related to Arabia only as that would mean the event  should take place again and again and again for rest of the world. No it was one time for the whole world and if we make it a summer event, expecting everyone to celebrate it only in the summer, it becomes a local event not a universal one.

We sent it down during a Blessed NIGHT: for We (ever) wish to warn (against Evil).
The moon (not full) is used to calculate events a timing device used to mark fixed periods of time: 2:189

That's a good point that you are pointing out and it's true. I will consider that some more however, remember also that this issue involves the forbidden 'full moons' in which hunting wild life is forbidden.  How could this change from year to year?  Also, as far as the descending of the reading, we do know that it was sent down upon one man, the messenger/ prophet Muhammad and he was in a particular area.  We can also try looking at it from this angle.  In verse 2:189 are you translating 'ahillah' as 'moon'??

I read the rest of your post about 'sanah' and ''aam' and as I was looking over this issue I also realized that maybe now I can look into these two words.  Since I haven't done so yet I really can't comment on this part but when I do we can exchange viewpoints on it.  :)  Also if you can answer some of the questions I raised initially, directly, I would appreciate that.  Take care all.

Umm Tariq
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Samia on September 15, 2008, 03:00:25 AM
From Arabic Classical dictionaries:

sana/sineen: periods of little/no rain/dryness/drought:

7:130: And We took the people of the Pharoh  by drought

3aam: period of rain/vegetation (from 3aam: tall; for plant):

12:47 "He said: you will farm tiredlessly seven periods of little rain, so leave what you harvested on its /ears cobs, save for the little you will eat"
12: 48 " then will come seven periods of extreme hardness that will eat what you provided except the little that you saved"
12:49 "then after that comes a time of abundant rain when people will press". (the harvest)

The other verses containing these two words are not as explicit as these foor me. Any opinion?
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: Nun de plume on September 15, 2008, 05:29:00 AM
Peace all --

2:226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait for four months...

Depending on the day in which this oath occurs waiting four full moons can vary by 28 days.


9:2 So walk/go/travel in the earth, four months?

How much time exactly does travel freely four full moons?


9:36 That the months' number/count at God (are) twelve in God's scripture, (on) the day He created the skies/space and the earth, from it four (are) sacred?

12 full moons which 4 full moons (i.e. sightings/snapshots) are sacred? What does that mean?

Time is continuous (infinite snapshots) from a point in time to another point in time.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/C_solarcorona2003.gif)


2:234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they (the wives) wait with themselves four months, and ten (days)?

http://www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/full/index.php

IF a man dies on August 17; his widow must wait 4 ?full moons? and 10 days.

Full Moon Dates 2008
August        16 4:18 P.M.
September   15 4:15 A.M.
October       14 3:04 P.M.
November   13 12:19 A.M.
December   12 10:38 A.M.

Add 10 days ? December 22, 2008 is the term date

Calculate duration between two dates
http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duration.html

From and including: Sunday, August 17, 2008
To and including: Monday, December 22, 2008
It is 128 days from the start date to the end date, end date included

IF a man dies on September 14; his widow must wait 4 ?full moons? and 10 days.

From and including: Sunday, September 14, 2008
To and including: Monday, December 22, 2008
It is 100 days from the start date to the end date, end date included

If shahr is month this woman is breaking the commandment by 28 days too early.

One can argue it is based on a menstrual cycle and each woman waits 4 periods and 10 days.

What about women past menopause between age of 45 and 55?


A third defect is that 2:185 asks us to witness/"shahida" a "shahr". How can one "witness" a "month", which is an arbitrary man-made time period ?

To bear witness is to have knowledge of a thing which is not always physical.

Surah 85

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIZrM7qYYrM

Peace

Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 15, 2008, 06:22:14 AM
Peace,

Truth seeker, feeding people to subsitute for a fast is expiating the fast. Plain and simple. THe reasons for the fast are to either to compensate certain actions or to uphold God's commands. But we expiate daily fasts by feeding people for each fast we do not do. That is not illogical or misleading.

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: progod on September 15, 2008, 06:27:28 AM
Peace,

Ayman I would like to point out that all of those quotes specififically refer to the feeling of heat, including the heat felt in a burning eye and from two thighs rubbing together. It is only your implication or better said, your guesswork, about the color being red. No color is mentioned in any of those quotes and all of them logically imply the feeling of heat as the main root ramada implies. So why are you guessing and putting the idea of color in here when it is not there? 

Godbless,
Anwar
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 15, 2008, 08:54:23 AM
Peace Anwar,

Ayman I would like to point out that all of those quotes specififically refer to the feeling of heat, including the heat felt in a burning eye and from two thighs rubbing together. It is only your implication or better said, your guesswork, about the color being red. No color is mentioned in any of those quotes and all of them logically imply the feeling of heat as the main root ramada implies. So why are you guessing and putting the idea of color in here when it is not there? 

Now you are just being argumentative and when you do that like some people here you forget your god-given common sense. Last time I checked no one who felt his eye burning had their eyes turn blue, white, or black. Their eyes always turn red. You think عيناها تَرْمَضانِ is refered to as "pink eye" or "red eye" in English for nothing? The term scorching is clearly about two things, heat and glowing red. So when referring to "shahr"/full-moon, they can only refer to the full-moon immediately after the summer solstice. Notice that you are now not arguing anymore about the indisputable scientific fact that this full moon will appear more red than the other full moons.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 15, 2008, 09:55:44 AM
Peace Umm Tariq,

Br. Ayman, I'd like to say thanks for that post on showing the differences in the different opinions on sharh ramadan, it was a useful way for me to look at the issue more deeply.

All thanks is due to the god sister. I only get credit for any mistakes. The god shows us the straight path by contrasting it with the paths of those who are lost (1:6-7). So it is always useful to compare all the different approaches and see which one is closest to the straight path to the truth.

As of now, I am convinced that sharh, as used in the reading, translates to full moon in all of the reading.  I have noticed that for those who take the meaning to be 'month', containing anywhere from 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons. 

This would depend on when the event of the full-moon occured. Remember your excellent analogy of full-moons and menstruations. The number of days will depend on when those events occur in relation to the start of the counting.

However, I do have one question for you about the first part of the verse 34:12: "And for Sulaiman the wind ghuduwuhaa shahr and rawaahuhaa shahr..."  If one translates it using 'month' then the translations that I've seen have to add the word 'journey' which is not mentioned in the verse as far as I see.  If you translate it as 'full moon' then how do you understand this verse?  ??? I do not know a whole lot about the science of wind and all so maybe I am missing something, I don't know.  However, I clearly do not like and do not accept when translators add words to seemingly make a verse more complete and clear as if it wasn't already!

I don't think that anyone (including me) can say with certainty what 34:12 is talking about.

"The interrelationship of the solar wind and the earth?s magnetosphere is receiving considerable attention in recent years. It has been suggested that the passage of the moon through the earth?s magnetic shield may serve to trigger various weather and magnetic activity. The interrelationship of indicators like the geomagnetic index, solar flux and other measures of solar activity with the moon is just now in the process of being researched and understood." (From: http://lessons.astrology.com/course/show/The-Astrology-of-Space/3031-The-Solar-Wind )

There is also other information that may be interesting but I don't think that it is scientifically proven:

http://www.policeops.com/full-moon-ion-effect.htm

Regarding verse 9:37, right after the god tells us about the count of 12 ashhur, it seems to me that if the people at the time of the revelation of the book were going by counting full moons, and there is sometimes this extra 13th full moon the god tells us that to sometimes count it and sometimes not is an increase in disbelief. Correct me if I am wrong but what I also get out of this is that when people decide to use a certain 'calendar' per se, at least in our times, they don't make it sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 since it's a 'calendar' that is used to regulate the systems we follow.  The traditional sunni lunar calendar stays 12 months, by some names that I don't know where they came from and doesn't even recognize the seasons as meaning anything related to the great reading which is a big crime.  Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?

If the "nasi" is the 13th full moon (we don't know this for sure) then the problem was with making it permissible some years and not others. What we are told in the great reading is that we should never count it (i.e., we should skip it and start counting again at the next full-moon). A year with 13 full-moons occurs every three years and interestingly this simple and elegant method given in 9:36 would automatically and accurately maintain the lunar cycle in sync with the seasons.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 15, 2008, 10:22:42 AM
Peace all,

The topic however is about the full moon itself and using it as a marker.

How did you conclude that this opinion is discounting 'month days' to 10 days?  We are not saying that a 'month' is ten days.  We   are saying that 'shahr' should be translated as 'full moon', using it as a marker to begin the fasting and then the number of days total is based on the additional analysis of the verses. 

Peace Sis Farida,

Please Farida, you made two such comments and I really don't believe that it helps any.  You are making an assumption that all of us here[/b] have egos just because we disagree and I am offended by that.  I seek refuge with the god from arrogance and I hate it as well.   

Umm Tariq

Salaam Umm Tariq,
Please read my reply again:
Quote
Quote from: farida on Today at 12:13:41 AM
It could be completely flawed but, in the interest of finding out the truth, we must all let go off our egos and work together.

You are a new member here and I hardly know you, I am surprised that you are offended by my general statement where I used the word "we"; that means including myself, I am sorry, its your problem if you took it as directed towards you. However I have highlighed above in red ,in your reply, where you are calling yourself part of Ayman's camp even though you say that you need to study this subject.
You seek refuge with the god from arrogance, so do I, but I do not see Ayman doing that, as he clearly wants to impose his theory or he calls others ignorant, "those who are lost" to him he is the only informed one and his is the "simple and elegant method" ::)

Quote
I am posting here in all honestly to aid in arriving at the truth so please don't assume otherwise without proof as the god has told us that much suspicion is sin.

When did I cast doubt on YOUR honesty ??? Assume what? That you are part of Ayman/'s team????  Did I touch some raw nerve ???

Quote
That's a good point that you are pointing out and it's true. I will consider that some more however, remember also that this issue involves the forbidden 'full moons' in which hunting wild life is forbidden.  How could this change from year to year

Thank you for noticing the good point and thank you again for considering it.  While doing that do keep in mind that I am talking of two models to follow No single man made calender; one the lunar months that we follow for the month of fasting and Ayman's version could be acceptable for seasonal events like harvesting, restricted months etc.

Quote
Also, as far as the descending of the reading, we do know that it was sent down upon one man, the messenger/ prophet Muhammad and he was in a particular area.  We can also try looking at it from this angle.
Why not use simple common sense!!!
Yes the message was descended on one man but for the benefit of the whole mankind. So its the event not the messanger who is our concern but the message. Its not a local even but a universal one, and it cannot be repeated in a mock exercise round the globe.
The 'night of measure' was a special night it was a night, during which there was night in one side of the world, afternoon at the other or early morning, what ever in other parts but, as Nun says in his last post "Time is continuous " so the event continued from then onward and has been revolving around the globe so everyone can witness that night as it falls in their region. This is the simple logic and this is the truth for those who reflect!!!

Quote
In verse 2:189 are you translating 'ahillah' as 'moon'
I did not translate the verse as I am not like some who manipulate translations according to their theory I said this:
The moon (not full) is used to calculate events a timing device used to mark fixed periods of time: 2:189
Yes full cycle of moon from start to finish from one cresent to last one. I hope I made it clear now.

Quote
I read the rest of your post about 'sanah' and ''aam' and as I was looking over this issue I also realized that maybe now I can look into these two words.  Since I haven't done so yet I really can't comment on this part but when I do we can exchange viewpoints on it.  :) 
It will benefit us all if we consider this:
18:12 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried!
 
Quote
Also if you can answer some of the questions I raised initially, directly, I would appreciate that.  Take care all
If you read my replies in this thread it does answer your concerns, and its backed by the verses of the Quran. In my last reply to you I did reply to your questions by saying:
I am 100% convinced that the solstice moon has no bearing on ascertaining the month of fasting.

Regarding the subject of witness now more signs for all and  following  Nun's post,  how many more proof do you need after this :
Peace all --

2:226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait for four months...

9:2 So walk/go/travel in the earth, four months?[/color]

How much time exactly does travel freely four full moons?


9:36 That the months' number/count at God (are) twelve in God's scripture, (on) the day He created the skies/space and the earth, from it four (are) sacred?

12 full moons which 4 full moons (i.e. sightings/snapshots) are sacred? What does that mean?

Time is continuous (infinite snapshots) from a point in time to another point in time.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/C_solarcorona2003.gif)

To bear witness is to have knowledge of a thing which is not always physical.

Surah 85

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIZrM7qYYrM

Peace



Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: ayman on September 15, 2008, 10:24:05 AM
Peace Farida,

From the above observations  I understand that "sana(t)" is used when referring to seasonal events ie harvest or restricted months and it is not fixed for the whole mankind but rotates according to movement of sun and the moon so in this type of calculations the summer solstice may be used As restricted/sacred month was observed by the pagans too. I wonder if sana(t) is the year which was used when it was divided into four/six season were used in a year prior to Islam.
And 3am is the years which take into account of seasonal as well as fixed term and making the total number of months 12.

Wow I think that you might have just solved the question that has been bugging me for so long. Excellent work.

When I pondered on what you wrote and checked the passages where the words "3am" and "sanat" occur, I noticed something interesting that you indicated and that differentiates those two terms. In 9:28, we hear the god refering to "3am" as "their 3am". Why is this? You provided the answer in your analysis. It is because, as you said, "sanat" refers to the natural annual seasonal cycle and it is not fixed for the whole mankind but rotates according to movement of sun and the moon. On the other hand, from the passage "3am" was the year in the specific calendar used by the Arab audience at the time of the revelation of the passage and thus it is "their 3am". In 9:37, we hear the word "3am" again as referring to the Arab's specific calendar system in contrast to the god's natural system (the day he created the heavens and the earth) in 9:36.

This newly found understanding about the difference between "3am" and "sanat" further points to the period of the restriction and thus the timing of the fast and the feast ("hagg") being in accordance with the god's natural system and not specific manmade calendars that are fixed for certain people at certain times in history.
 
Thank you sister and may the god reward you for your efforts and bless you and have mercy on us all.

Peace,

Ayman
Title: Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer
Post by: farida on September 15, 2008, 10:51:17 AM
Peace Farida,

Wow I think that you might have just solved the question that has been bugging me for so long. Excellent work.

When I pondered on what you wrote and checked the passages where the words "3am" and "sanat" occur, I noticed something interesting that you indicated and that differentiates those two terms. In 9:28, we hear the god refering to "3am" as "their 3am". Why is this? You provided the answer in your analysis. It is because, as you said, "sanat" refers to the natural annual seasonal cycle and it is not fixed for the whole mankind but rotates according to movement of sun and the moon. On the other hand, from the passage "3am" was the year in the specific calendar used by the Arab audience at the time of the revelation of the passage and thus it is "their 3am". In 9:37, we hear the word "3am" again as referring to the Arab's specific calendar system in contrast to the god's natural system (the day he created the heavens and the earth) in 9:36.

This newly found understanding about the difference between "3am" and "sanat" further points to the period of the restriction and thus the timing of the fast and the feast ("hagg") being in accordance with the god's natural system and not specific manmade calendars that are fixed for certain people at certain times in history.
 
Thank you sister and may the god reward you for your efforts and bless you and have mercy on us all.

Peace,

Ayman

Salaam Ayman,

If you read my post you would notice that I do not have an inflated ego and I do not feel ashamed to acknowledge something worth considering.
The two Models for counting I mentioned means two types of calculations and it needs lots of brilliant minds here to work it out, it is not as simple as you think.
When it comes to celebrating the month of fasting your mode of calculation is NOT ACCEPTABLE as the Night of Measure was the birth of an event and for that we need fixed term calculations using the phases of the moon --- lunar calendar if that's what you call it.
Please do pay a lot o