The Prayer Issue Revived

[c0de]

The Jews don't really have anything to do with control of the NWO dude...
They are being played like everyone else. The banking elite don't really have
a religion... (unless you consider unadulterated materialism a "religion" (I do)).

And Muslims and Jews are not destined to fight each other... The Israelis
and the Arabs are destined to fight each other... according to the dictates
of the 1922 settlement created by the imperial powers... The coming wars
have nothing to do with religion... just wanted to make that clear.

There are no "good" sides here. The Muslims today are just as much part of
the system as anyone else.

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace Rami,

Simple. The authors of the Torah had no name for the King of Egypt except for Pharaoh. Thats heresy. All the Jews I asked never responded because they know it is true. It is like saying that the King of Israel was David then David then David! or saying that Melchizedek is a title for the King of Salem.

Ummm... Okay, what does this prove? Because the Torah doesn't mention the name of the Pharaoh, this makes the complete account fabricated? You've gotta be kidding me, man... This is not "heresy" at all, and it's just a lack of information. The Qur'aan doesn't mention the Pharaoh's name either, nor does it mention Melchizedek at all. Pharaoh wasn't used as a name in the Torah, it's a title. Therefore, there's a pharaoh. After he dies, his successor becomes... ANOTHER PHARAOH, and then another one. The title of "pharaoh" is NEVER used anywhere as a name, it's used as a title...

Wrong, actually the Rabbis knew this so they engineered a waiting period of 3 months speculated from the Genesis account.

This is another addition added into the Gemarra and placed in the Rabbinical Talmud. It doesn't appear in the Torah...

Another one on the house....

Exd 7:12   For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

20:65   They said: ?O Moses, either you cast down or we will be the first to cast down.?
20:66   He said: ?No, you cast down.? So their ropes and staffs appeared from their magic as if they were moving.

Mutually exclusive. The authors of Torah say Aaron is one who threw the rod and they believe in dark demonic powers creating things. In the Quran, the magicians rods appears to be like snakes but they can't be because the Spirit belongs to God. And Moses is the thrower.

This must be a joke... In the Biblical account, Moses is the thrower, and nothing says that Aaron threw down the rod. It simply says that the rod originally belonged to Aaron, and it was passed along to Moses... The aspect of the rods "transforming" into (or appearing to be) serpents is not a contradiction at all. The Qur'aan says the same thing. It just emphasizes that their rods were still RODS, not actual serpents, regardless of what they looked like. The account it the same in both books...

All these contradictions are benign. Now lets look at a very dangerous one! One that can literally destroy the world!

Deu 23:20   Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

4:161 And for their taking of usury, while they were told not to do so, and for their consuming people?s money unjustly. We have prepared for the disbelievers amongst them a painful retribution.
2:278   O you who believe, be aware of God and give up what is left from usury, if you are truly believers.
2:279   And if you will not do this, then take notice of a war from God and His messenger; but if you repent, then you will have back your principal money, you will not be wronged nor will you wrong.

This is not a contradiction. The Jews were condemned for usury against their own people, which is emphasized in the Qur'aan. This is why the Qur'aan encourages them to 'GIVE UP' their usury towards the Gentiles, since these previously were not forbidden... I don't know what your view of the "NWO" and the end of the world is, but it sounds like it's built on a political conspiracy theory, most of which are completely absurd and illogical.

Peace,

Ahmad

[Real Truth]

The Qur'aan leaves out a lot of details because (1) it's shorter than the Torah and (2) from a Gentile perspective, a lot of the information and insight about the prophets' lives is irrelevant and unnecessary. The Qur'aan only gives the "basics", and it doesn't elaborate on issues that wouldn't pertain to the people at hand. While a main focus of the Tanakh is to provide an indepth history of the Jewish nation (i.e. Bani Israel), this is not a focus of the Qur'aan, which is why the Qur'aan leaves out much of this information. Since most of the recipients of the Qur'aan were NON-Jews, elaborate information relating to Jewish history is irrelevant if it doesn't apply to the Gentiles. That's why the only prophet clearly chastised by G-d in the Qur'aan by is MUHAMMAD himself, not any of the other Jewish prophets. The error of Jonas is also mentioned (since he also preached to Gentiles), but he's quickly forgiven by G-d on the basis of his prayer from in the "darkness" of the fish. The other prophets appear nearly infallible...

Peace,

Ahmad

I mostly agree quran leaves out a lot of information because it was only sent to restore the true message. If the quran doesn't say otherwise, we must believe the torah. Quran is from a GOD perspective not a gentile . Solomon isn't appeared infallible, He got so addicted with horses he missed his prayer time.

Peace

[Real Truth]

The Jews and the Christians charge the Quran with being imperfect because of these
contradictions with the Torah. But we know that the version of events in the Quran
is perfect, while the Torah is not.

Which is why we must read the torah ALONG with the quran

[Rami]

Ummm... Okay, what does this prove? Because the Torah doesn't mention the name of the Pharaoh, this makes the complete account fabricated? You've gotta be kidding me, man... This is not "heresy" at all, and it's just a lack of information. The Qur'aan doesn't mention the Pharaoh's name either, nor does it mention Melchizedek at all. Pharaoh wasn't used as a name in the Torah, it's a title. Therefore, there's a pharaoh. After he dies, his successor becomes... ANOTHER PHARAOH, and then another one. The title of "pharaoh" is NEVER used anywhere as a name, it's used as a title...

It seems that you don't understand what I am talking about at all. There is no such thing as 'a' Pharaoh or 'the' Pharaoh. I am not talking about archaeology either. Pharaoh is used in both scriptures as a proper noun like Michael, Arbaham, Moses etc. If Pharaoh is a title, it should say THE Pharaoh or the Pharaoh of Egypt. Check out this

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H6547

They admit it is used nakedly as a proper noun. Need I say more?

This is another addition added into the Gemarra and placed in the Rabbinical Talmud. It doesn't appear in the Torah...

Which means the loophole is official. Thank you.

This must be a joke... In the Biblical account, Moses is the thrower, and nothing says that Aaron threw down the rod. It simply says that the rod originally belonged to Aaron, and it was passed along to Moses... The aspect of the rods "transforming" into (or appearing to be) serpents is not a contradiction at all. The Qur'aan says the same thing. It just emphasizes that their rods were still RODS, not actual serpents, regardless of what they looked like. The account it the same in both books...

You are kidding. Right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyNjL9vUXB4&NR=1

This is not a contradiction. The Jews were condemned for usury against their own people, which is emphasized in the Qur'aan. This is why the Qur'aan encourages them to 'GIVE UP' their usury towards the Gentiles, since these previously were not forbidden... I don't know what your view of the "NWO" and the end of the world is, but it sounds like it's built on a political conspiracy theory, most of which are completely absurd and illogical.

The Quran orders the people of Mohammed to give up usury. So now the Quran is changing the Torah and commanding the Jews not to charge interest on the gentiles. the Jews ofcourse won't comply as per Torah. So we have war, theoritically speaking. I know there is no such thing as NWO, it is just a war on resources. Oil and water. It is not really about religion. But the Islamic economic system is threatening to Western capitalistic economies. It won't be pretty later on. It is not a conspiracy at all, it is simply Real Politik. The struggle for monoply and power will never end.

Peace,

Rami

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace RT,

I mostly agree quran leaves out a lot of information because it was only sent to restore the true message. If the quran doesn't say otherwise, we must believe the torah. Quran is from a GOD perspective not a gentile . Solomon isn't appeared infallible, He got so addicted with horses he missed his prayer time.

I agree with you, and I didn't mean to imply that the Qur'aan is from a Gentile perspective. I meant to say the main targeted audience of the Qur'aan were non-Jews... And I forgot to mention that detail about Solomon neglecting the salaat obervance because he was preoccupied with horses. Thanks for bringing this up...

Which is why we must read the torah ALONG with the quran

I completely agree.

Peace,

Ahmad

[farida]

But the Islamic economic system is threatening to Western capitalistic economies. It won't be pretty later on. It is not a conspiracy at all, it is simply Real Politik. The struggle for monoply and power will never end.

Peace,

Rami

Salaam
Exactly; this is what I too always believed that the Islamic way of life would simply demolish Modern Capitalism, wihich is based on continious consupmtion, making money out of desires and a banking system to keep eveyone constantly in debt so the most important concern of a man would be not to lose his mortgaged house, which in turn make people conformist.

[Bigmo]

The Torah discusses the prohibition against taking interest in many places: Exodus 22:24; Leviticus 25:36-37; and Deuteronomy 23:20-21. (See also Ezekiel 18:8-17; 22:12; Psalms 15:5; and Proverbs 28:. Here is the biggest problem people have here. They do not understand that the Torah is not just Moses's teachings. It spans several centuries. It is refered to as the Torah because thats what people call it. There are also many scriptures not included in the Biblical collections of today but were in the past and many of the items there are included in the Koran. Catholic Bible also have scriptures not found in King James. The dead sea scroll also contained scriptures the Bible collectors did not compile for various reasons including their desire to have a chronological order of the scriptures.
Watch the documentary "banned from the Bible" in video google. They will show you verses in the Koran confirming material in the so called banned scriptures and give some reasons why some of these scriptures were not included in the Bible collection. Also the Ethopian Church included some scriptures not found in King James as it was not accepted. Banned in the Bible gives good undertsanding of the logic used in Bible collection and inclusion and many of the time it was due to convenience. But one thing Christians unanimously did was to only debate earlier written scriptures and they all refused the oral traditions, unlike Judaism or Islam which took the oral traditions and then abrogated the written scriptures due to their desire to manufacture a legal framework.

Anyways the view of usury of Ahmad Subhi Mansour is very similar to the Torah quote. Riba is to be done in business transactions and not personal lives and should be done to those who can afford it and not those who are desperate and seek loan not to run an enterprise or project but because they are desperate. Another worlds usury should not be exploitative.

The previous scriptures must be read with an undertsanding of its structure and historic lay out. The Koran deals with some issues that could only be understood in some cases by 7th century Medina realities since that is the time period it came down. And you can easily see that when you read some passages of the Koran. The Torah and the other scriptures in the OT spans literally hundreds and hundreds of years including many prophets and their teachings.

Even the Book of Jeremiah differs as to what Jeremiah preached in Jerusalem and what he preached in Babylon because the situations now differed. Does not the Koran also talk about different issues in Mecca and Medina?

No the opening paragraph I got from a Jewish website, but I did not include the whole material, you know why? Here is how it actually reads:

The Torah discusses the prohibition against taking interest in many places: Exodus 22:24; Leviticus 25:36-37; and Deuteronomy 23:20-21. (See also Ezekiel 18:8-17; 22:12; Psalms 15:5; and Proverbs 28:.

As is the case with most laws of the Torah, to gain a full understanding of the laws of ribit (usury) it is necessary to study the topic as it is explained on the Oral Law. The laws of ribit are discussed at length in the Code of Jewish Law, Yoreh De'ah 159-177. As is the case with most laws of the Torah, to gain a full understanding of the laws of ribit (usury) it is necessary to study the topic as it is explained on the Oral Law

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/256,328/Can-I-find-the-laws-of-usury-in-the-Old-Testament.html

And that my friend is Sunni/Shia Islam in action.

[Rami]

Peace all,

Read the following verses and you will know that most of the OT is written by the Babylonians priests and the adversaries of Solomon.

2:101   And when a messenger came to them from God, authenticating what was with them, a group of those who had already received the scripture placed God’s scripture behind their backs as if they did not know.
2:102   And they followed what the devils(adversaries) recited regarding Solomon’s kingship. Solomon did not reject, but it was the devils that rejected by teaching people magic, and teaching them what was sent down on the two angels in Babylon, Haroot and Maroot. They did not teach anyone until they would say: “We are a test, so do not lose faith!” Thus they teach what can separate between a person and his mate; but they cannot harm anyone except by God’s permission. And they learn what harms them and does not benefit them, and they have known that he who purchases such has no place in the Hereafter. Miserable indeed is what they purchased with their souls if only they knew!

Bingo, Solomon DID NOT reject. The adversaries of Solomon would want to paint that Solomon rejected as painted in the OT.

Peace,

Rami

[c0de]

@ RT + Bigmo + Ahmed

Salaam Brothers , this is a collective response to all.

Which is why we must read the torah ALONG with the quran

I never said that Muslims should not acquire knowledge of the Torah. But we should never
give the accounts in the Torah MORE PRIORITY then the Quran. There are 2 reasons for this.
One of them is historical (academic), and the other is religious (from the Muslim perspective):

1) The Torah (five books, of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) whose author
the Jews say (I checked) was Moses (pbuh) himself, is academically analyzed to have been compiled in the
Persian period (500-300 BCE) which means that it was compiled something like a 1000 years after
the death of its author. (look it up yourself, don't take my word for it). While the Quran was written
under the supervision of the Prophet and codified within the same generation.

2) There has also been irrefutable proof provided that the version of events in the Torah
contradicts the Quran. Which proves (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that the two scriptures can not
simultaneously be the direct word of God, and one of them is more accurate then the other. And since we
Muslims are obligated to believe in the Quran's supremacy, we must believe in the version of events in the Quran,
as basic article of faith. And therefore, everything in the Torah+Tanakh+Talmud which goes against the Quran
must be rejected immediately as a fabrication.

It is not a matter of the Torah being more detailed at all, that has nothing to do with it. Remember, Solomon PBUH was a Muslim
before he was a Semite. Therefore, the Muslims have more of a right to the Judaic prophets then the Jews themselves. This is why
the Quran redeems their image, as the Jews maligned their own prophets through adding fabrications in their scriptures. So
Solomon pbuh was not a heretic, David pbuh was not a murderer, Noah pbuh was not a drunk, and Lot pbuh did not commit incest!
(Do you see a pattern here?) These events are not conveniently ignored by God in the Quran because the Torah is allegedly more
detailed. They are ignored because they DID NOT OCCUR, and instead the Jews are charged with fabricating these things against
their prophets, and this is why the Quran retells the stories of these prophets and their work, to redeem them.

This is why the arguments which have been based in the Torah are not valid in an Islamic discussion
because the Torah can not be used as a foundation for any Islamic argument. We know for a fact that the Torah
is no more authentic then the hadith (historically speaking). In fact it is less authentic, because there are books
of the hadith (like the Muwatta, of Imaam Maliki) which were compiled only 150 years after the Prophet, while the
Torah was compiled a 1000 years after Moses (pbuh). So if you want to have an Islamic discussion without the hadith,
(because the hadith is unauthentic) then you must also, by the same argument, disregard other inauthentic
texts such as the Torah. As much as I hate this saying, it is applicable: "you can't have your cake and eat it too"


PeAcE