Author Topic: The Prayer Issue Revived  (Read 54067 times)

c0de

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The Prayer Issue Revived
« on: February 24, 2009, 06:06:56 AM »
Ok, this is starting off from the middle of another thread in another section.
First I will quote my post, then the rebuttal, and then post my response.


Step 1: The initial argument on the subject of prayer:



Quote
I would like to point out that the number of 5 prayers can
be very soundly supported through the Quran itself. First of all:

...Prayer indeed has been enjoined on the believers at fixed times.
4:103

This verse makes it clear that there are fixed times and therefore a fixed number
of the contact prayers, (i.e the number is not arbitrary). Then there is the verse 17:78
which broadly defines all the 5 times together:

"Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night and
the morning recitation; surely the morning recitation is witnessed."

Notice that the words "from" and "until" are used, which indicate that the number
of prayers must be more then 3. And since there is another verse in the
Quran which mentions a "middle prayer" (2:238) it is clear that this number must
be an odd number. So we know that it must be more then 3, and and odd number.
This is Quranic evidence for the number 5. Taken together with the unbroken practice of
Muslims over generations (unless you can prove otherwise) is proof enough that
the established number of prayers is 5.



@ Bigmo


Is this mere suspicion enough to reject the practice? As I said, you would have to provide
evidence that there was a time when the Muslims used to pray any more or less then 5 contact prayers.
Also, you will have to admit that your argument is completely based on circumstantial evidence. This is what
I meant when I said that you will have a hard time proving the number 5 is wrong. I do appreciate the detail
and effort. But you have admit that it is basically all speculation.




@ Wakas



If there is evidence within the Quran. Then the popularity becomes
supporting evidence, and not a fallacy.

Observe the following verses which were part of the list you gave.
The first two verses clearly mention bowing down and standing as
part of the contact prayer. And the last verse clearly indicates that
there is a set form and length to each prayer, as we are allowed to
shorten it during travel.

And Keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those that bow down.
2:43

Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).
2.238

And when you journey in the earth there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer...
4:101


Basically, there is a lot of stuff that is not based in the Quran which you can challenge,
but the 5 contact prayers, their methods, and timings, this is not extra-Quranic. It is
a very essential obligation mentioned in the Quran.


Step 2, the Rebuttal:
I am combining the posts of Mr. Bigmo and Dr. Fazl



Quote
Not all of them are alike: of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long and then prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong; and they (hasten in emulation) in (all) good works; they are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

And there are certainly among the people of the Book those who believe in Allah in the revelation to you and in the revelation to them bowing in humility to Allah: they will not sell the signs of Allah for a miserable gain! for them is a reward with their Lord and Allah is swift in account.

16.48. Do they not look at Allah.s creation, (even) among (inanimate) things,- How their (very) shadows turn round, from the right and the left, prostrating themselves to Allah, and that in the humblest manner?

So we see that prostration is mentioned in the Koran but we see no specific standard for the salat you say. Its not whether the 5 salat are Sunnah or not its the question whether its the only way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If the acting salat is so important than the salat in action, then it is never possible. Muhammad accepted from Allah, the 50 times salat per day on his ascent to heaven to meet Allah. Only for the people's sake who will never follow the prophet Muhammad in this regard, he had to scale 50 down by heavily bargaining through nine meetings with Him reducing each time by 5 waqts. Then also Musa says the followers cannot pray so much. But muhammad was only ashamed to go to Allah again; had he done so definitely Allah would have removed the last remaining 5 waqts also. So it is not at all wrong to do away with the ritual, acting - the salat.

But one thing is definite! Muhammad would have surely followed 50 waqts every day because he had accepted the same from Allah and never bargained for reduction for himself but did so only for the fake people at large who will claim to follow him. What do the hadith followers have to say about the timings that muhammad observed daily for his 50 waqts prayer, if it is acting salat?

-----------------------------------


Point #1

Firstly, I did not say that the Quran mentions the standard, I said that the Quran says that
there is a standard. This is clear when we are told that we can shorten our
prayers when we are traveling, this implies that there is a set length to the prayer. If there
was no set length or standard, then why would God tell us we can "shorten" the prayer
? If
its length was arbitrary to begin with, this injunction would not have been necessary.

Point #2

Both of these rebuttals, do not address all the arguments made in the initial argument.
Also, once again the arguments you have made are based in circumstantial evidence.
You assume that since the methods of prayer of the Jews have been similar to Muslims in the past,
that our current methods of prayer are borrowed from them, and are not taught by the Prophet.
This is pure speculation.

Now I agree that the pattern of prayer is not as strict as the different sects claim,
but this does not mean that the method of prayer is arbitrary either. There is a general guideline
which all sects follow, e.g. The recitation of Surah Fatiah "The Opening" and the bowing down.
The number of rakats are very uniform within most schools of thought, but I am not here to
argue how many rakats you should pray. That is besides the point. The point is that there is
a fixed number of prayers, at fixed times, and there is a method that is given by the Prophet
for those prayers that should be followed.

Point #3:

There is clear evidence in the Quran that the number of prayers is more then 3, and is an odd
number
. Therefore, the number 5 is clearly supported by the overwhelming popularity of the
practice of 5 daily prayers. If you challenge this practice, then you would have to provide
evidence that there was a time in the ummah when the Muslims use to pray more or less then
5 daily prayers. So far, you have not provided any evidence to indicate this.

--Mohsin E.

Wakas

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2009, 06:22:24 AM »
peace,

Thanks for starting a new thread.

Before we begin:

Have you read the past discussions in this forum on the topic of: salat timing? meaning of "sujud"? meaning of "ruku"?
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

c0de

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2009, 06:49:07 AM »
peace,

Thanks for starting a new thread.

Before we begin:

Have you read the past discussions in this forum on the topic of: salat timing? meaning of "sujud"? meaning of "ruku"?

Nope, but the points you have mentioned do not apply to this thread,
I think, as it is making the case that: only if there were no verses in the
Quran to indicate the number, and the existence of a format, and the
existence of fixed times, only then could we move this discussion to realms
like the meaning of the words you mentioned. Because then there would be
evidence that the suspicion on this practice is warranted. But as it stands now,
there has not even been any proof provided that this practice was ever any
different then it is today.

Therefore, since all of these things have a foundation in the Quran, the practices
that we see in the ummah become supporting evidence for the contact
prayers as they are today. Thoughts?


PeAcE
--Mohsin E.

Wakas

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2009, 06:58:52 AM »
For sake of argument, let's ignore that for now, and get stuck in:

Quote
Notice that the words "from" and "until" are used, which indicate that the number
of prayers must be more then 3.

Explain/clarify.


Thanks.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Bigmo

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2009, 07:00:57 AM »
Nope, but the points you have mentioned do not apply to this thread,
I think, as it is making the case that: only if there were no verses in the
Quran to indicate the number, and the existence of a format, and the
existence of fixed times, only then could we move this discussion to realms
like the meaning of the words you mentioned. Because then there would be
evidence that the suspicion on this practice is warranted. But as it stands now,
there has not even been any proof provided that this practice was ever any
different then it is today.

Therefore, since all of these things have a foundation in the Quran, the practices
that we see in the ummah become supporting evidence for the contact
prayers as they are today. Thoughts?


PeAcE

All believers pray with fixed timings. Its part of the routine of life, like eating and sleeping. You are understanding fixed timing wrong. People usually pray in the mornings and evenings and some may pray at noon. Some Christians also pray before eating. Nearly all societies have fixed timings for praying as they have fixed timings for anything else in life. Believers are diligent about their prayers and know that if you keep slipping the time eventually you might abandon it. Its like charity, you always have a certaing percent you give out or else you will neglect it. So I do not see fixed timings as something related to what you are saying. The Koran does give us fixed timings and these fixed timings are typical for humans. Its another way of saying being consistent. Anyways Sunnis do not have fixed timings, only Maghrib has a certain small time frame. The verses that mention the timing of salat in the Koran says fajr and Isha, these are fixed timings and it says at the edges of the day, these are fixed timings. Some people pray before sleep, these are fixed timings. The problem is you believe these fixed timings are things that you should be given. Maybe you are not used to devicing your own. Its like exercising, those who are serious keep a routine and they stick with it.
88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe

c0de

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2009, 07:47:30 AM »
Wakas + Bigmo


@ Wakas


If there were only 3 times of the contact prayers, then the words "from"
and "until" would not need to be used. As the three times are already
mentioned in that verse.


@ Bigmo

But that is not what the verse is saying. It is not saying that all believers
have their own fixed times. It is clearly saying that the times for the prayers
are themselves fixed.

Also, you have not yet provided any proof that the practice of 5 daily prayers
at their stated times was ever any different then it is today. Unless you provide
evidence for this, you do not really have a case.



PeAcE 
--Mohsin E.

truthseeker11

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2009, 09:02:40 AM »
Peace code,

You are conveniently ignoring that the verse mentions "salaat" (singular), and not "salawaat" (plural), so the "from" and "until" mean it is the timing for one salaat and not more than one for that time period. The "from" and "until" combined with singular "salaat" actually refute the understanding of more than one salaat in that time period. I have seen this time and again that people twist the word of God based on their personal pre-conceived notions based on unverifiable hearsay and refuse to see the clear signs. This has been discussed in this forum ad nauseum so no further comments from me on this issue.
6:116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

10:36 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.

2:170 And if they are told: ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say: ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not understand anything and were not guided?

28:75 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say: ?Bring forth your proof.? They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.

simple

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2009, 10:07:33 AM »
Salaams the cOde  :peace:,

Quote
Salaams,
              This has been discussed a number of times but i wonder if you can visualise it from a different angle but using the quran in main:

4:103
---------- verily the Salaat is on the believers enjoined at fixed time and do not be weak----------.

Name of Allah: ALMUQEET = The possessor of power.

85.
[4:85]   Man yashfaAA shafaAAatan hasanatanyakun lahu naseebun minha waman yashfaAA shafaAAatansayyi-atan yakun lahu kiflun minha wakana AllahuAAala kulli shay-in MUQEETUN من يشفع شفاعة حسنة يكن له نصيب منها ومن يشفع شفاعة سيئة يكن له كفل منها وكان الله علي كل شئ مقيتا

    Whoever recommends and helps a good cause becomes a partner therein: And whoever recommends and helps an evil cause, shares in its burden: And Allah hath power over all things.

According to lanes(P 2571):

Muqeetun = Giving or giver of : Food/Sustenance/Keeping/Preserving/Guarding.

Mawqootan= Nourishment/Preservation/Protection  ; As is needful.

SO AN ALTERNATIVE TRANSLATION COULD WELL BE:

4:103
------------verily the Salaat is on the believers an enjoined requirement and not be weak-------------.e.t.c

God Bless.



Bigmo

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2009, 10:33:53 AM »
Wakas + Bigmo


@ Wakas


If there were only 3 times of the contact prayers, then the words "from"
and "until" would not need to be used. As the three times are already
mentioned in that verse.


@ Bigmo

But that is not what the verse is saying. It is not saying that all believers
have their own fixed times. It is clearly saying that the times for the prayers
are themselves fixed.

Also, you have not yet provided any proof that the practice of 5 daily prayers
at their stated times was ever any different then it is today. Unless you provide
evidence for this, you do not really have a case.



PeAcE 

But the verse does not say who are to fix it and there is nowhere in the Koran where it says what those fixed times are. It says it should be at the two ends of the day etc. Plus you want me to prove how the 5 daily prayers were not the way they were. However you still have not provided that they were fixed that way. Plus you still have not explained about how the Rika'at are from the prophet. Now the Koran says that:

51.19 And in their wealth the beggar and the outcast had due share.

What is the share?


88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe

c0de

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Re: The Prayer Issue Revived
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2009, 10:58:19 AM »
@ All

Salaam everyone.... rite then:

The problem with your arguments are basic: You are the ones who are
making a claim challenging the established ritual of prayer. So the
burden of proof is on you, not everyone else. You can't just make
an objection (which you have not proven) and then expect others
to provide proof before you have presented prof for your objection.

In logic, this would be considered an Argument from Ignorance.
Here is a description of this particular error from wikipedia:

Quote
Argument from ignorance ("appeal to ignorance"): The fallacy of assuming that something is true/false because it has not been proven false/true. For example: "The student has failed to prove that he didn't cheat on the test, therefore he must have cheated on the test."


The burden of proof is on you because you have raised the objection that the
established number of prayers was (at one time) something other then 5.
Until you provide this proof, as I said, you don't really have a real argument.
But for the sake of discussion lets continue:




Quote
You are conveniently ignoring that the verse mentions "salaat" (singular), and not "salawaat" (plural), so the "from" and "until" mean it is the timing for one salaat and not more than one for that time period.


You could only make that claim if verse 4:103
did not exist. Since it already makes it clear that there
are fixed times for the prayer and thus 17:78 points
out that those times are between:

1: in the Mourning and then a break...
2: then again starting from Mid Day
3: And Going on until night.. and then another break



Quote
nowhere in the Koran where it says what those fixed times are.

Of course it does not say what those exact times are
because the world is a sphere and the timings for each
section of the planet are different. You expect the Quran
to tell you that Zuhr is at 12:30pm?  :P

PeAcE
--Mohsin E.