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shahr = lunar month ?

Started by Mohammed., July 15, 2022, 01:29:42 PM

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Aladin Azra

So, you claim that Allah forgot to put fee there and you have to put it to make that sentence to have some sense? Or, maybe, just maybe, you put some random meanings in words Allah revealed to us so we can ponder over them and those meanings have no sense, because el-Hajj cannot be any months, lunar cycles, phases of the Moon...
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Noon waalqalami

^^^ you keep mindlessly ranting like before about spouses and can't read or understand a thing.

describes an action in the hajj  فى in اىام days معلومت well-known

22:28 لىشهدوا to witnessed they of منفع who benefit لهم for them وىذكروا and remembered they of اسم name الله the God فى in اىام days معلومت well-known

likewise read what was posted prior describes action during group of four i.e., timeframe of hajj
why so hard headed and total lack of basic cross-reference and reading comprehension skills?

Quote from: Noon waalqalami on July 24, 2022, 12:53:20 PM
??? timeframe is clearly there use context cross-reference

2:197 الحج the hajj اشهر lunar cycles معلومت well-known
فمن so who فرض undertakes فىهن fīhinna/in them (reference 9:36) الحج the hajj

9:36 ان indeed عده count الشهور the lunar cycles (pl.) عند near/with الله the God اثنا dual عشر ten (twelve) شهرا lunar cycle of فى in كتب book/writ الله the God ىوم day خلق creation السموت the skies والارض and the land
منها of them اربعه quartet (group of four) حرم inviolable ذلك such الدىن the creed القىم the value
فلا so not تظلموا thou wrong ye of فىهن fīhinna/in them (i.e., group of four) انفسكم souls yours


https://corpuscoranicum.de/en/verse-navigator/sura/9/verse/36/manuscripts








Aladin Azra

Fee in 22:28 won't magically make fee in 2:197. Why you're hard-headed and you won't even think that words can have many meanings and maybe, just maybe, ešhur here means something else?

22:28 is not saying about ešhur, but about days. It's your understanding that ešhur is set of days in 2:197. Moreover, if time adverb is used, as eyyaam in 2:184, it's in accusative, so we can clearly understand that Siyaam (for previous people) was during (not IN) a few days. Thus, if you think that ešhur in 2:197 is a time adverb it would be clear. Since it's not clear and it doesn't make sense we should try to figure out its (other) meaning.

If you think that you understand grammar of the Qur'an please explain and teach me how ešhur in 2:197 is a time adverb. Thank you in advance.
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Noon waalqalami

Quote from: Aladin Azra on July 24, 2022, 02:17:47 PM
If you think that you understand grammar of the Qur'an please explain and teach me how ešhur in 2:197 is a time adverb. Thank you in advance.

Already showed numerous times it pertains to timeframe "in them" ie group of four lunar cycles the hajj — how much clearer can this be? Otherwise translate exactly each word 2:197 and 9:36 let's see it and which word below is incorrectly translated by me?

2:197 الحج the hajj اشهر lunar cycles معلومت well-known
فمن so who فرض undertakes فىهن fīhinna/in them (reference 9:36) الحج the hajj

9:36 ان indeed عده count الشهور the lunar cycles (pl.) عند near/with الله the God اثنا dual عشر ten (twelve) شهرا lunar cycle of فى in كتب book/writ الله the God ىوم day خلق creation السموت the skies والارض and the land
منها of them اربعه quartet (group of four) حرم inviolable ذلك such الدىن the creed القىم the value
فلا so not تظلموا thou wrong ye of فىهن fīhinna/in them (i.e., group of four) انفسكم souls yours



Aladin Azra

I've already given my view on this, I will quote:

QuoteFirst, let's notice that there's no IN (fee فِي) at the start of 2:197, so it cannot mean that el-Hajj is IN anything. The proof for this is 22:28 where IN was used with eyām ma'loomāt فِي أَيَّامٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ. This means that el-Hajj IS ešhur ma'loomāt أَشْهُرٌ مَعْلُومَاتٌ and we have to figure out what this means.

Passive ma'loomāt is a feminine plural and it's an adjective of ešhur here. The passive participle means that some verb was done on its subject if there's no active participle, or it means that some verb is doing on its subject in case that there's an active participle. Since we can't see an active participle we should conclude that ma'lumāt already have their passive state. We should note that the language of the Qur'an has an anticausative also, which is expressed by verbal form VII. So, who made ešhur ma'lumāt?

We should note that ešhur is more likely masculine, especially in 65:4 since it has feminine number (3) or 9:5 where probably masculine adjective Hurum is used. Due to this we could conclude that ešhur, as all other words, has multiple meanings and that some meanings are masculine and some feminine, because it's obvious that in 2:197 ešhur should be feminine plural. As ešhur in 65:4 most probably means "(3) months" where it's masculine, we can conclude that ešhur in 2:197 has some other meaning.

Root šeen-ha-ra describes revealing of something step-by-step, or in case of the Moon by phases. Ešhur as a collective noun can mean all these steps or phases, thus in relation to the Moon it means "(lunar) month". This collective form is singular and plural same time, as, for example, enfus is singular and plural for "self" (selves). This also mean that ešhur is not a plural of šehr, which has its normal plural in šuhoor, as, for example, beyt has buyoot.

If ešhur are not months, then what it means here?

Due to its root meaning and noun's form we could conclude that ešhur is some sort of a collection of revealings. Since el-Hajj is debating, discussing we could conclude that ešhur means a collection of presentations speakers/participants in el-Hajj. Why they're ma'loomāt? Because the host (Ibrahim and people after him) already chosen and decided which set of topics and their presenters will be el-Hajj.

The rest of 2:197 talks about those who participiate IN THEM (fee hinne فِيهِنَّ), meaning speakers/participants in presentations of the Hajj.

I hope this makes sense...


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