shahr = lunar month ?

[Mohammed.]

Peace,

There seems an issue with this article on shahr/timing
(I don't know this is already discussed, I searched the forum but didn't find)

From the article:
We also know from 2:189 that we should come into houses from the obvious front doors and not from the obscure backs. This hints to us that the "7ajj"/debate starts with the obvious full moon and that the unobvious crescent is what ends the "7ajj"/debate.

But 36:39 says:
And the moon we have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns like an old curved sheath.

Since it says "until it returns" (see ʿāda in 2:275 & 5:95) it implies that the moon becomes what it was in the beginning (it's initial shape, like an old curved sheath). So in 2:189 when God says we should come into houses from the doors/entrances not from the back, it hints to us to enter into the lunar cycles/months (shuhur) from the front/start/newmoon, not from other stages.

2:189
They ask you about the crescent moons. Say, "They are markers of time for mankind and for the hajj." It is not piety that you should come to houses from their rear, but piety is he who is reverent and comes into houses by their doors/entrances. So reverence God, that you may succeed.

So crescent moons serve as timing devices for the start and end of shuhur (including the lunar months for hajj).

[Wakas]

That article was discussed over 262 pages:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0

And if you dont want to read 250+ pages, I did it for you, and gave my views here:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg388725#msg388725

[Aladin Azra]

This hints to us that the "7ajj"/debate starts with the obvious full moon and that the unobvious crescent is what ends the "7ajj"/debate.[/i]

I'm confused now. Who's saying that el-ehillet are "full moons"? Are they ppl from fm.org? I suppose next is your understanding...

They ask you about the crescent moons.

I wonder how you come to conclusion that el-ehillet are the crescent moons? And why would anybody ask (or better: keep on asking, due to imperfect used) about the crescent moon or any moon? Btw, if you think that el-ehillet is a plural of hilaal, I agree that hilaal is crescent moon and not new moon, but I don't agree these are singular and plural of the same word.

From what you said you have a problem with 2 crescent moon which last a few days every lunar month. So, "Hatta `aade" in 36:39 for you should be the time when the moon is going to fully disappear (become invisible, ie. be a new moon)? If I understood what you wanted to say, the lunar month starts before new moon (from last quarter to new moon, which is crescent phase), not with new moon, right?

But, I think we should first see what el-ehillet means, especially in the only 1 occurence used.

[Euphoric]

The word MONTH comes from the word MOON even in the Arabic language.

[Mohammed.]

That article was discussed over 262 pages:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0

And if you dont want to read 250+ pages, I did it for you, and gave my views here:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg388725#msg388725

Thanks for the links. Yeah, unlike with ashhur(consecutive fullmoons), it doesn't make sense with singular.

[Mohammed.]

I wonder how you come to conclusion that el-ehillet are the crescent moons?

it occurs only once in the Qur'an, and Arabic lexicons give crescent moons or new moons. I think both the meanings fit here.

And why would anybody ask (or better: keep on asking, due to imperfect used) about the crescent moon or any moon?

They were not familiar with islamic systems, here, islamic tyming system and which is based on Sun and Moon (10:5).
Please see all other places/contexts where this phrase (yas-alunaka) is used.

From what you said you have a problem with 2 crescent moon which last a few days every lunar month. So, "Hatta `aade" in 36:39 for you should be the time when the moon is going to fully disappear (become invisible, ie. be a new moon)? If I understood what you wanted to say, the lunar month starts before new moon (from last quarter to new moon, which is crescent phase), not with new moon, right?

No, lunar month starts with new moon.
In short, as per 36:39 God mentions Moon phases from new moon, not from full moon. i.e. islamic tyming system starts (e.g. for hajj) with newmoon itself (enter houses from the doors).

[Noon waalqalami]

Peace — pregnancy calculations and breastfeeding durations e.g., pregnancy 6 lunar cycles require 24 cycles breastfeeding (30 total) or 9 cycles pregnancy (average) require 21 cycles breastfeeding (30 total) etc., confirm that lunar cycle is exactly 29 days and year is solar exactly 365 days (dawn-to-dawn) see details in paper below

https://www.academia.edu/60573093/Pregnancy_weaning_calculations_in_Qur_an

[Aladin Azra]

it occurs only once in the Qur'an, and Arabic lexicons give crescent moons or new moons. I think both the meanings fit here.
They were not familiar with islamic systems, here, islamic tyming system and which is based on Sun and Moon (10:5).
Please see all other places/contexts where this phrase (yas-alunaka) is used.
No, lunar month starts with new moon.
In short, as per 36:39 God mentions Moon phases from new moon, not from full moon. i.e. islamic tyming system starts (e.g. for hajj) with newmoon itself (enter houses from the doors).

You haven't seen a problem? There are 2 crescent moons in each lunar month:

1) new moon - CRESCENT - 1st quarter...
2) full moon - 3/4 moon (gibbous, greater then a half moon) - half moon - CRESCENT

If you think that moon should go back to be "like an old palm tree", then this should mean that the moon should go back to crescent, and this would mean that the new lunar month starts and will go like: CRESCENT - new moon - CRESCENT - 1st quarter... but then there will be another problem, because crescent came back after just 2 phases and a new month should start from here to 1st quarter, etc. to another CRESCENT, then new moon, etc. Practically, there would be two months in what we currently count as one lunar month. This is why we should rethink about word el-'urjoon الْعُرْجُون in 36:39, maybe it's not from the root 'ayn-ra-jim-noon, as the only word from this root, maybe it's from 'ayn-ra-jim and describes ascending, which has a lot connection with moon's phases and its motion, much more then some figurative word, which maybe never existed.

---

I know that el-ehillet exists in only one aayet, but that should not be a reason for us to guess its meaning from lexicons, especially cuz they lack of explanation and examples for this word. We should notice that this word is very, very, very important, since it's something people keep on asking, and it's 2nd question mentioned in the Qur'an, just after asking about (nearness of) Allah.

There's no "islamic timing system"; time is time. If you think something like "time for Hajj" then you should think about that Ibrahim set the Hajj and it was praxis of the people from Ibrahim to Muhammed, so el-ehillet as a reason (or time) for Hajj existed much before the Qur'an was revealed, for many of different people (generations).

As I understood, these people asking about el-ehillet didn't know what ehillet are, what's their use (since they were forbidden something, and figured out that they got something wrong about this word).

It would be good if you can provide your translation of 2:189 and 36:39, or anybody else's you can accept, if you cannot translate it.

And, most important for the end: Your topic is about shehr, but shehr is not mentioned in 2:189 nor in 36:39.

[Mohammed.]

There are 2 crescent moons in each lunar month:

Yeah, but there are several phases of crescent moons in a lunar cycle.

Waxing crescent Moon - The intermediate Moon phase comes after New Moon and lasts until half of the Moon's visible surface is illuminated at First Quarter Moon.
Waning crescent Moon - Starts just after the Third Quarter Moon and lasts until the following New Moon.
https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/moon/waxing-crescent.html

There's no "islamic timing system"; time is time.

islamic systems or islamic timing system = what the infinite creator has set for His human servants (or probably for all other creatures too) to accomplish their worldly life. God was teaching people the same system that Abraham followed, through Muhammad. But there could be time to time change/updation in Guidance.

[Mohammed.]

Waxing crescent Moon - The intermediate Moon phase comes after New Moon

But I consider New Moon as a part of crescent Moon.

[Mohammed.]

Peace Noon,

I read your article a bit late, interesting observation, & thanks for sharing.

Could you tell why you say lunar cycle is exactly 29 days ? (Why not >29 or ~29.5).
12 lunar cycles take around 354/355 days. So thalathuna shahr would be >870 days ?

[Mohammed.]

God mentions Moon phases from new moon, not from full moon. i.e. islamic timing system starts (e.g. for hajj) with new moon itself (enter houses from the doors).

I hope it's not confusing. Time for hajj starts with the new moon of first month of the well known /inviolable /restricted months. i.e. unlike in the article, one can choose any set of days within these months.

[Aladin Azra]

Time for the Hajj is when its host announce it, as was told to Ibrahim.

There's also bogus understanding of 2:197 when people think that ešhur means "months", so some take it as the Hajj is in a few months and some take it as the Hajj is these months.

[Noon waalqalami]

Peace Noon,

I read your article a bit late, interesting observation, & thanks for sharing.

Could you tell why you say lunar cycle is exactly 29 days ? (Why not >29 or ~29.5).
12 lunar cycles take around 354/355 days. So thalathuna shahr would be >870 days ?

peace Mohammed,

pregnancy time and breastfeeding calculations would contradict if natural birth occurs before cutoff time similar type of contradiction as with fingerprints i.e., each individual has unique prints even identical twins (see 75:3-4)

•   contradicts If lunar cycle = 29.53059 days, and if year = lunar 354.36708 days
•   contradicts If lunar cycle = 29.53059 days, and if year = solar 365.242199 days
•   contradicts If lunar cycle = 29 days, and if year = lunar 354

math only works if lunar cycle = 29 days and if year = solar 365 days
(i.e., full days e.g., dawn-to-dawn or sunset-to-sunset)

3:41 قال said رب lord اجعل makes لى for me اىه sign قال said اىتك sign your (sing.) الا that not تكلم thou talk الناس the people ثلثه trio (group of three) اىام days الا except رمزا symbol (gesture) of واذكر and remembrance (mention) ربك lord your (sing.) كثىرا much of وسبح and glorify بالعشى in the evening والابكر and the early part

likewise, doesn't say 12 lunar cycles in a year rather the count is twelve!

9:36 ان indeed عده iddata/count الشهور the lunar cycles (pl.) عند near/with الله the God اثنا dual عشر ten (twelve) شهرا lunar cycle of فى in كتب book (writ) الله the God

choose a marker e.g., summer solstice, full-moon, etc., count full days until next event

like many words when written with leading alif denotes plural

2:185 شهر lunar cycle (sing.) رمضن ramadan
perf558 شهر lunar cycle (sing.) جمدى jumada الاولى the first من of سنه year اثنىن twosome وعشرىن and twenty (22)



2:197 الحج the hajj اشهر lunar cycles (pl.) معلومت well-known

2:226 للذىن for the ones ىولون turning (forswearing) من from نساىهم womenfolk theirs (m/p) تربص wait اربعه quartet (i.e., group of four successive not any اربع arbaa/four) اشهر lunar cycles (pl.)

2:234 والذىن and the ones ىتوفون taketh being (dying) منكم among you (m/p) وىذرون and leaving ازوجا spouses of ىتربصن waited they (f/p) بانفسهن in (by) souls theirs/themselves (f/p) اربعه quartet (group of four) اشهر lunar cycles (pl.) وعشرا and ten of

4:92,58:4 فمن so who لم not ىجد find فصىم so abstinence شهرىن lunar cycles two متتبعىن successive two

9:2 فسىحوا so move about فى in الارض the land اربعه quartet (group of four) اشهر lunar cycles (pl.)
9:5 فاذا so when of (i.e., future event) انسلخ withdraws الاشهر the lunar cycles (pl.)

65:4 والى and those (f/p) ىىسن despaired من from المحىض the menstruation من from نساىكم womenfolk yours ان if ارتبتم doubts you (pl.) فعدتهن so count theirs ثلثه trio (group of three) اشهر lunar cycles (pl.)

the meanings in context are obvious and pregnancy/breastfeeding calculations times clarify

[Aladin Azra]

Same question goes: How the Hajj can be lunar cycles? What does that mean?

[Mohammed.]

I also count year solar, but when you say 30 lunar cycles = 870 days (or lunar cycle is 29 days), it contradicts with what we observe in reality / what God has arranged.

[Noon waalqalami]

Same question goes: How the Hajj can be lunar cycles? What does that mean?

it means the same as 22:28 فى in اىام days معلومت well-known

I also count year solar, but when you say 30 lunar cycles = 870 days (or lunar cycle is 29 days), it contradicts with what we observe in reality / what God has arranged.

Not what I say what Qur'an says — what does it contradict?
Did you understand how to solve inequality equation given?

https://www.mathsisfun.com/algebra/inequality-solving.html

[Noon waalqalami]

We could use lunar cycle = 29.530575 days
Pregnancy = 2x365 - 30x29.53 = 156+ days

Hence cutoff = 156/7 = 22 weeks + 2 days
These two cases (suspect?) violate above?

"In 2014, Lyla Stensrud, born in San Antonio, Texas, U.S. became the youngest premature baby in the world. She was born at 21 weeks 4 days and weighed 410 grams (less than a pound). Kaashif Ahmad resuscitated the baby after she was born."

"Amillia Taylor is also often cited as the most premature baby. She was born on 24 October 2006 in Miami, Florida, U.S. at 21 weeks and 6 days' (153 days) gestation. This report has created some confusion as her gestation was measured from the date of conception (through in vitro fertilization) rather than the date of her mother's last menstrual period, making her appear 2 weeks younger than if gestation was calculated by the more common method."

[Aladin Azra]

it means the same as 22:28 فى in اىام days معلومت well-known

It can't mean the same because there's no fee there.

[Noon waalqalami]

It can't mean the same because there's no fee there.

timeframe is clearly there use context cross-reference

2:197 الحج the hajj اشهر lunar cycles معلومت well-known
فمن so who فرض undertakes فىهن fīhinna/in them (reference 9:36) الحج the hajj

9:36 ان indeed عده count الشهور the lunar cycles (pl.) عند near/with الله the God اثنا dual عشر ten (twelve) شهرا lunar cycle of فى in كتب book/writ الله the God ىوم day خلق creation السموت the skies والارض and the land
منها of them اربعه quartet (group of four) حرم inviolable ذلك such الدىن the creed القىم the value
فلا so not تظلموا thou wrong ye of فىهن fīhinna/in them (i.e., group of four) انفسكم souls yours

https://corpuscoranicum.de/en/verse-navigator/sura/9/verse/36/manuscripts

[Aladin Azra]

So, you claim that Allah forgot to put fee there and you have to put it to make that sentence to have some sense? Or, maybe, just maybe, you put some random meanings in words Allah revealed to us so we can ponder over them and those meanings have no sense, because el-Hajj cannot be any months, lunar cycles, phases of the Moon...

[Noon waalqalami]

^^^ you keep mindlessly ranting like before about spouses and can't read or understand a thing.

describes an action in the hajj  فى in اىام days معلومت well-known

22:28 لىشهدوا to witnessed they of منفع who benefit لهم for them وىذكروا and remembered they of اسم name الله the God فى in اىام days معلومت well-known

likewise read what was posted prior describes action during group of four i.e., timeframe of hajj
why so hard headed and total lack of basic cross-reference and reading comprehension skills?

timeframe is clearly there use context cross-reference

2:197 الحج the hajj اشهر lunar cycles معلومت well-known
فمن so who فرض undertakes فىهن fīhinna/in them (reference 9:36) الحج the hajj

9:36 ان indeed عده count الشهور the lunar cycles (pl.) عند near/with الله the God اثنا dual عشر ten (twelve) شهرا lunar cycle of فى in كتب book/writ الله the God ىوم day خلق creation السموت the skies والارض and the land
منها of them اربعه quartet (group of four) حرم inviolable ذلك such الدىن the creed القىم the value
فلا so not تظلموا thou wrong ye of فىهن fīhinna/in them (i.e., group of four) انفسكم souls yours

https://corpuscoranicum.de/en/verse-navigator/sura/9/verse/36/manuscripts

[Aladin Azra]

Fee in 22:28 won't magically make fee in 2:197. Why you're hard-headed and you won't even think that words can have many meanings and maybe, just maybe, ešhur here means something else?

22:28 is not saying about ešhur, but about days. It's your understanding that ešhur is set of days in 2:197. Moreover, if time adverb is used, as eyyaam in 2:184, it's in accusative, so we can clearly understand that Siyaam (for previous people) was during (not IN) a few days. Thus, if you think that ešhur in 2:197 is a time adverb it would be clear. Since it's not clear and it doesn't make sense we should try to figure out its (other) meaning.

If you think that you understand grammar of the Qur'an please explain and teach me how ešhur in 2:197 is a time adverb. Thank you in advance.

[Noon waalqalami]

If you think that you understand grammar of the Qur'an please explain and teach me how ešhur in 2:197 is a time adverb. Thank you in advance.

Already showed numerous times it pertains to timeframe "in them" ie group of four lunar cycles the hajj — how much clearer can this be? Otherwise translate exactly each word 2:197 and 9:36 let's see it and which word below is incorrectly translated by me?

2:197 الحج the hajj اشهر lunar cycles معلومت well-known
فمن so who فرض undertakes فىهن fīhinna/in them (reference 9:36) الحج the hajj

9:36 ان indeed عده count الشهور the lunar cycles (pl.) عند near/with الله the God اثنا dual عشر ten (twelve) شهرا lunar cycle of فى in كتب book/writ الله the God ىوم day خلق creation السموت the skies والارض and the land
منها of them اربعه quartet (group of four) حرم inviolable ذلك such الدىن the creed القىم the value
فلا so not تظلموا thou wrong ye of فىهن fīhinna/in them (i.e., group of four) انفسكم souls yours

[Aladin Azra]

I've already given my view on this, I will quote:

First, let's notice that there's no IN (fee فِي) at the start of 2:197, so it cannot mean that el-Hajj is IN anything. The proof for this is 22:28 where IN was used with eyām ma'loomāt فِي أَيَّامٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ. This means that el-Hajj IS ešhur ma'loomāt أَشْهُرٌ مَعْلُومَاتٌ and we have to figure out what this means.

Passive ma'loomāt is a feminine plural and it's an adjective of ešhur here. The passive participle means that some verb was done on its subject if there's no active participle, or it means that some verb is doing on its subject in case that there's an active participle. Since we can't see an active participle we should conclude that ma'lumāt already have their passive state. We should note that the language of the Qur'an has an anticausative also, which is expressed by verbal form VII. So, who made ešhur ma'lumāt?

We should note that ešhur is more likely masculine, especially in 65:4 since it has feminine number (3) or 9:5 where probably masculine adjective Hurum is used. Due to this we could conclude that ešhur, as all other words, has multiple meanings and that some meanings are masculine and some feminine, because it's obvious that in 2:197 ešhur should be feminine plural. As ešhur in 65:4 most probably means "(3) months" where it's masculine, we can conclude that ešhur in 2:197 has some other meaning.

Root šeen-ha-ra describes revealing of something step-by-step, or in case of the Moon by phases. Ešhur as a collective noun can mean all these steps or phases, thus in relation to the Moon it means "(lunar) month". This collective form is singular and plural same time, as, for example, enfus is singular and plural for "self" (selves). This also mean that ešhur is not a plural of šehr, which has its normal plural in šuhoor, as, for example, beyt has buyoot.

If ešhur are not months, then what it means here?

Due to its root meaning and noun's form we could conclude that ešhur is some sort of a collection of revealings. Since el-Hajj is debating, discussing we could conclude that ešhur means a collection of presentations speakers/participants in el-Hajj. Why they're ma'loomāt? Because the host (Ibrahim and people after him) already chosen and decided which set of topics and their presenters will be el-Hajj.

The rest of 2:197 talks about those who participiate IN THEM (fee hinne فِيهِنَّ), meaning speakers/participants in presentations of the Hajj.

I hope this makes sense...