The Night of Decree is the 27th day of the 9th moon: Incontrovertible proof

[hope4]

Selam

I think a point has been missed here. The Quran's description of Ramadan does not rely on any calander but naturally occuring phenomena. This meaning that at any point if an error is made in the calander system for any reason the actual timming of Ramadan could easily be determined by Allah's natural laws which we could easily witness around us. This way no one could lead no one else astray as the phenomena does not require mans input. Anyways, this is my understanding of the situation, Allah has given us free will to choose.

May Allah's guidance be with us.

Peace

[Ayisha]

Selam

I think a point has been missed here. The Quran's description of Ramadan does not rely on any calander but naturally occuring phenomena. This meaning that at any point if an error is made in the calander system for any reason the actual timming of Ramadan could easily be determined by Allah's natural laws which we could easily witness around us. This way no one could lead no one else astray as the phenomena does not require mans input. Anyways, this is my understanding of the situation, Allah has given us free will to choose.

May Allah's guidance be with us.

Peace

yes that is the point that is trying to be put across. As the calendar has changed there must be some way to know using the signs that Allah gave us and not using a man made calendar system at all, hence how would you know its ramadan if you woke up on a desert island.

[Ayisha]

And you know this because you saw a vision when you and your buddy were practicing voodooism on a full moon night in the summer solstice. And this is your evidence of truth. How awful!!!!!

you are insane.

We use the calendar system that has been established by Prophet Muhammad. It has been preserved for us (believer).

and dumb

You seem to think that if I start a new calendar today, my fasting month would be inconsistent from that of Prophet Muhammad. This is the thinking of ignorant, immature and wicked people. I will demonstrate this via an example which I posted in the Hot Ramadan debate thread (Re: Hot/"ramadan" Answer ? Reply #2087 on: October 01, 2009, 04:25:07 PM ?).  

As usual, Ayman doesn?t know what he is talking about. He turns a simple matter into a complex and complicated thing. This is his nature. I will illustrate Ayman?s ill thinking using a simple concept that uses Prophet Muhammad as the reference point. Other prophets can be used just as well.

Arbitrary Months:    1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12  
(Pre Quranic)


Prophet Muhammad: 1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12
(Receive revelation)


Prophet Muhammad: 1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12
(Defines Calendar)

Prophet Muhammad has the authority to define the arbitrary pre-Quranic months into Islamic months/calendar. Thus, Prophet Muhammad establishes the Islamic calendar with 9 as the month of Ramadan because that?s when he received the revelation from the God. Henceforth, by definition the calendar cannot be called arbitrary anymore. Thus, the Islamic calendar has been canonized by Prophet Muhammad.

Now, guest wants to establish an Islamic calendar with new initial point (mark or month 1)

Islamic Calendar: 10---11---12---1---2---3---4---5---6----7----8----9
Guest Calendar:     1---2----3----4---5---6---7---8---9---10---11---12

As a God fearing person, I would have to maintain synch with Prophet Muhammad defined month of Ramadan. Therefore, in Guest calendar, Ramadan is performed in the month 12. This way I have a different calendar, yet fasting in the same physical timeframe, even though Guest month is 12 and Islamic month is 9. Similarly, I can move the initial point to any point in time without compromising the calendar defined by Prophet Muhammad.

This is so simple, yet, Ayman doesn?t get it.

22:3 - Among the people, there are those who argue about GOD without knowledge, and follow every rebellious devil.

22:4 - It is decreed that anyone who allies himself with him, he will mislead him and guide him to the agony of Hell.

Ayisha, since your faulty logic on calendar has been exposed, I suggest you go into hiding with WayFinder and kick each other?s hiney.
This is the straw that breaks the camel's back. You need to get your head examined!

You have the nerve to equate Moses?s people with believers who fought with Prophet Muhammad with their life and money in the cause of Allah. You are truly a lost soul. Reflect on the following verse:

7:179 - We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.

with written proof of both

[guest]

Selam

I think a point has been missed here. The Quran's description of Ramadan does not rely on any calander but naturally occuring phenomena. This meaning that at any point if an error is made in the calander system for any reason the actual timming of Ramadan could easily be determined by Allah's natural laws which we could easily witness around us. This way no one could lead no one else astray as the phenomena does not require mans input. Anyways, this is my understanding of the situation, Allah has given us free will to choose.

May Allah's guidance be with us.

Peace

Peace

Your statement is very subjective. It does not add any value unless you say my system (my way) give me an error of plus minus: 0.00000000000000001 and here is the proof of it. In reality, the system you and Ayman are advocating makes an error of more than 30 days. If you invented new system then please give the detail of that system. 

[WayFinder]

[The true color of your buddy (WayFinder) has been exposed and he realizes it and went into hiding. ]

You are waaaay tooo smart for me... 

I think you should feel really good now... 

[hope4]

Peace

Your statement is very subjective. It does not add any value unless you say my system (my way) give me an error of plus minus: 0.00000000000000001 and here is the proof of it. In reality, the system you and Ayman are advocating makes an error of more than 30 days. If you invented new system then please give the detail of that system. 

Peace Guest

Hope you are well. Just to reply to the above I would like to say that the lunar calendar is out of sink with all natural systems, e.g. we could not use it to determine the seasons. What you have stated is not proof at all. How did you workout the error of plus/minus 10^-16? I think I have missed the point

In short no matter what calendar we use its only purpose is to serve as organising our lives. The Quran does not mention no calendar in use today but rather markers that are naturally occuring in which we can find a reference point inorder to count. The Islamic lunar calander only came into being around 638 A.D.  The question you must therefore ask is, what calander was in use before then, considering our prophets death occured around 632 A.D.?

Peace

[guest]

Peace Guest

Hope you are well. Just to reply to the above I would like to say that the lunar calendar is out of sink with all natural systems, e.g. we could not use it to determine the seasons. What you have stated is not proof at all. How did you workout the error of plus/minus 10^-16? I think I have missed the point

In short no matter what calendar we use its only purpose is to serve as organising our lives. The Quran does not mention no calendar in use today but rather markers that are naturally occuring in which we can find a reference point inorder to count. The Islamic lunar calander only came into being around 638 A.D.  The question you must therefore ask is, what calander was in use before then, considering our prophets death occured around 632 A.D.?

Peace

Peace

Lunar calendar is not out of sync with all natural systems. Lunar cycle itself is a natural system (Allah?s system). And what is season got to do with our deen. Nothing!

The lunar cycle, solar cycle and seasons are independent natural phenomenon. None of them are in synch with each other. If you use lunar cycle to stay in synch with the seasons, you will have to use a correction factor, say X. If you use solar cycle to stay in synch with the seasons, you will have to use a correction factor as well, say Y. The value of X may be larger than the value Y, the fact is a correction is required.

You can track the seasons with lunar cycle by applying the correction X. Likewise you can track the seasons with solar system by applying the correction factor Y. The key point is none of them are naturally in synch with the seasons. And this has nothing to do with religion.

You have talked about a natural marker. How accurately can you get back to the marker from year to year? You seem to imply the error is zero. I made the zero to a very small number. How do you assure yourself that your starting point is the same every year and not off by say 30 days.

[Ayisha]

Peace

Lunar calendar is not out of sync with all natural systems. Lunar cycle itself is a natural system (Allah?s system). And what is season got to do with our deen. Nothing!

The lunar cycle, solar cycle and seasons are independent natural phenomenon. None of them are in synch with each other. If you use lunar cycle to stay in synch with the seasons, you will have to use a correction factor, say X. If you use solar cycle to stay in synch with the seasons, you will have to use a correction factor as well, say Y. The value of X may be larger than the value Y, the fact is a correction is required.

The lunar cycle, the solar cycle and the seasons are from Allah, not a phenomenon. They are prefectly in sync with each other. The number of months in a year is 12 according to Allah. The moons orbit around the earth is once every 29.53 days, so x 12 = 354.36 in one year if the islamic calendar uses 12 lunar cycles. The Earth and its orbiting moon orbit the sun once every 365.25 days. The Islamic man made calendar has given the 12 months 30 (or 29) days each, and the total in a year is 354 days or sometimes 355 days, so this is out of sync with the solar calendar which give the seasons and the vegetation of those seasons by 11 days a year. The islamic calendar used now is not a lunar calendar based on any astronomical calculations as a lunar calendar is.

The calendar you are refering to with your x and y values is to bring it into sync. The original calendar used when Muhammed was here was a lunisolar calendar and every 3 years there was an intercalary month or a leap month added. This was repeated through all the months over the years so in the leap  year you have Muḥarram to Dhū al-Ḥajja + Dhū al-Ḥajja. the next leap year you have 2 months of Muḥarram then complete to Dhū al-Ḥajja, the next leap year you have Muḥarram and 2 months of Ṣafar then complete the year. With this you are postponing some forbidden months till the following month, cant you see that? So some leap years would even have 2 months of 'Ramadan' too. This obviously was what Allah referred to in verse 9.37 regarding postponing forbidden months.The Islamic calendar used now by most of the Muslim world was brought in after Muhammeds death

You can track the seasons with lunar cycle by applying the correction X. Likewise you can track the seasons with solar system by applying the correction factor Y. The key point is none of them are naturally in synch with the seasons. And this has nothing to do with religion.

the solar calendar is in sync with the seasons and adding  leap day every 4 years brings it in sync. This has everything to do with Allah and it is in Quran that you were given sun and moon to measure time and count the years and that you were given stars to guide you.

You have talked about a natural marker. How accurately can you get back to the marker from year to year? You seem to imply the error is zero. I made the zero to a very small number. How do you assure yourself that your starting point is the same every year and not off by say 30 days.

you cannot make  zero to a small number. You made the variation to a small number but you were not basing it on anything and took numbers out of your head. As I have said above the calendar used was off by 30 days and thats why there was a month added every 3 years because the Lunar cycle is out of sync with the solar one. The natural marker would be the sun and the seasons, the earth travelling round the sun, 365.25 days a year from one spring to the next spring etc. That is a marker. The moon travels round the earth but the earth AND its moon both travel around the sun, no sun = no life

[hope4]

Peace

Lunar calendar is not out of sync with all natural systems. Lunar cycle itself is a natural system (Allah?s system). And what is season got to do with our deen. Nothing!

The lunar cycle, solar cycle and seasons are independent natural phenomenon. None of them are in synch with each other. If you use lunar cycle to stay in synch with the seasons, you will have to use a correction factor, say X. If you use solar cycle to stay in synch with the seasons, you will have to use a correction factor as well, say Y. The value of X may be larger than the value Y, the fact is a correction is required.

You can track the seasons with lunar cycle by applying the correction X. Likewise you can track the seasons with solar system by applying the correction factor Y. The key point is none of them are naturally in synch with the seasons. And this has nothing to do with religion.

You have talked about a natural marker. How accurately can you get back to the marker from year to year? You seem to imply the error is zero. I made the zero to a very small number. How do you assure yourself that your starting point is the same every year and not off by say 30 days.

Selam guest

The sighting of the starting point is described here:


Anytime the moon is full, the sun and the moon are on opposite sides of the earth. Thus, if one is high in the sky, as the sun is around the summer solstice, the moon must be low. Of course, this is 100% consistent. So full moons that occur around the summer solstice are special because they follow the lowest path across the sky of all of the year's full moons.

The "scorching" aspect of the full moon occurs due to the same phenomenon that gives sunsets their red color. It is the scattering of light in the earth's dusty atmosphere close to the horizon. Thus, a full-moon that hangs lower across the horizon will appear and stay redder than one that quickly climbs to a higher altitude. Also, for some reason, our brains are wired to perceive such low hanging red full moons as much larger than normal. In addition, the red full-moon after the summer solstice is special because it occurs when the weather is starting to get very hot. Thus, the two aspects of "scorching" (the red color and heat) are associated with this particular full-moon.

Because of its color and appearance being associated with the hotter time of the year many ancient cultures had names for the full moon after the summer solstice such as hot moon, blood moon, red moon, etc. In a flat desert with its dusty atmosphere and very hot weather, this "scorching full moon" would have appeared very dramatic to the pre-quranic Arabs.

This is all easily verifiable by observing the full moon after the summer solstice when it appears. This is one of the easiest to witness attention-grabbing sights in the night sky.

It happens once a year every year. What a wonderful marker.

Peace

[guest]

Selam guest

The sighting of the starting point is described here:


Anytime the moon is full, the sun and the moon are on opposite sides of the earth. Thus, if one is high in the sky, as the sun is around the summer solstice, the moon must be low. Of course, this is 100% consistent. So full moons that occur around the summer solstice are special because they follow the lowest path across the sky of all of the year's full moons.

The "scorching" aspect of the full moon occurs due to the same phenomenon that gives sunsets their red color. It is the scattering of light in the earth's dusty atmosphere close to the horizon. Thus, a full-moon that hangs lower across the horizon will appear and stay redder than one that quickly climbs to a higher altitude. Also, for some reason, our brains are wired to perceive such low hanging red full moons as much larger than normal. In addition, the red full-moon after the summer solstice is special because it occurs when the weather is starting to get very hot. Thus, the two aspects of "scorching" (the red color and heat) are associated with this particular full-moon.

Because of its color and appearance being associated with the hotter time of the year many ancient cultures had names for the full moon after the summer solstice such as hot moon, blood moon, red moon, etc. In a flat desert with its dusty atmosphere and very hot weather, this "scorching full moon" would have appeared very dramatic to the pre-quranic Arabs.

This is all easily verifiable by observing the full moon after the summer solstice when it appears. This is one of the easiest to witness attention-grabbing sights in the night sky.

It happens once a year every year. What a wonderful marker.

Peace

Peace

How do you determine the full moon? What is the criterion?

How do you know that full moon you are looking at is a FULL MOON not a day away from the actual full moon?  It is not an on/off situation. Run a test with humans and you will know what I mean. This is the first error!

The second error you will make is with full moon that occurs few days prior to summer solstice vs. the full moon after the summer solstice.  There is your 30 day error. Just run an impartial test to determine the fact for yourself.

The third error will be the 13th moon. Somehow you have to make it disappear.

All these issues were discussed in the hot Ramadan thread. There is no need to rewrite them again in this thread.