Surrogacy

[Sania Haque]

I tried to search posts on this topic but I wasn't able to find anything. Sectarians prohibit it for weird reasons which I personally donot find convincing. From the pov of Quran, is it ethically wrong ? To some extent I can see that if it's traditional surrogacy where surrogate is the biological mother of the child and her egg is combined with the intended father's or donor's sperm and the donor and the surrogate are not married but what about gestational surrogacy (aka the Host method) in which the surrogate becomes pregnant via embryo transfer with a child of which she is not the biological mother ?

Hadithians prohibit even the traditional surrogacy if the biological mother is not married to the father and give reasons like it will create a lineage problem. But I donot see how it's going to create any problem. It's the same as adopting and even it is same has a husband having a child from second wife ( this has been practiced since ages ). They say that this is equivalent to zina  since the surrogate is using the sperm of a person who is not her husband but how is fusion of two gametes can be equal to zina I donot see their logic here tbh. I didn't know Allah prohibited zina because the couple are producing illegitimate babies. Hearing their argument just killed my brain cells but I would like a Quranic input here. 

As for gestational surrogacy they quote the verse in Surah al-Mujadalah (58: 2) where the Quran says:

"...their mothers are only those who conceived them and gave birth to them (waladna hum)."

As i said to some extent i understood that traditional surrogacy could be wrong if the donor is not surrogate's husband but I didn't find anything wrong with gestational surrogacy. But now they quote this verse and I dont know what to think. I dont want to blindly believe them. Is it really true that Quran doesn't consider the egg donor as a biological mom, but a woman who carried the baby despite not sharing any genetic ties with baby ? I do feel that they might have twisted the verse as the whole ayah goes like this

Those of you who ˹sinfully˺ divorce their wives by comparing them to their mothers ˹should know that˺ their wives are in no way their mothers. None can be their mothers except those who gave birth to them. What they say is certainly detestable and false. Yet Allah is truly Ever-Pardoning, All-Forgiving.

But I am not sure. I think I am not being able to get out of my sectarian mindset of trying to find the the haramness/halalness of everything. my rational side says this is utter bs and surrogacy is definitely not forbidden. My brainwashed side says to even confirm whether breathing is haram or not (jk). What's your opinion on this ?

PS bit off topic but how do you delete a post/reply here

[jkhan]

I tried to search posts on this topic but I wasn't able to find anything. Sectarians prohibit it for weird reasons which I personally donot find convincing. From the pov of Quran, is it ethically wrong ? To some extent I can see that if it's traditional surrogacy where surrogate is the biological mother of the child and her egg is combined with the intended father's or donor's sperm and the donor and the surrogate are not married but what about gestational surrogacy (aka the Host method) in which the surrogate becomes pregnant via embryo transfer with a child of which she is not the biological mother ?

Hadithians prohibit even the traditional surrogacy if the biological mother is not married to the father and give reasons like it will create a lineage problem. But I donot see how it's going to create any problem. It's the same as adopting and even it is same has a husband having a child from second wife ( this has been practiced since ages ). They say that this is equivalent to zina  since the surrogate is using the sperm of a person who is not her husband but how is fusion of two gametes can be equal to zina I donot see their logic here tbh. I didn't know Allah prohibited zina because the couple are producing illegitimate babies. Hearing their argument just killed my brain cells but I would like a Quranic input here. 

As for gestational surrogacy they quote the verse in Surah al-Mujadalah (58: 2) where the Quran says:

"...their mothers are only those who conceived them and gave birth to them (waladna hum)."

As i said to some extent i understood that traditional surrogacy could be wrong if the donor is not surrogate's husband but I didn't find anything wrong with gestational surrogacy. But now they quote this verse and I dont know what to think. I dont want to blindly believe them. Is it really true that Quran doesn't consider the egg donor as a biological mom, but a woman who carried the baby despite not sharing any genetic ties with baby ? I do feel that they might have twisted the verse as the whole ayah goes like this

Those of you who ˹sinfully˺ divorce their wives by comparing them to their mothers ˹should know that˺ their wives are in no way their mothers. None can be their mothers except those who gave birth to them. What they say is certainly detestable and false. Yet Allah is truly Ever-Pardoning, All-Forgiving.

But I am not sure. I think I am not being able to get out of my sectarian mindset of trying to find the the haramness/halalness of everything. my rational side says this is utter bs and surrogacy is definitely not forbidden. My brainwashed side says to even confirm whether breathing is haram or not (jk). What's your opinion on this ?

PS bit off topic but how do you delete a post/reply here

Peace everyone..

First of all Sania, let's find out the root cause, WHY a person or persons go for the option of surrogacy OR surrogate mother?

Possible options

1 ... Wedded couple but no child naturally
2... Wedded couple no child coz of some unfortunate reasons/incidents..
3... Anyone who wishes to adopt a child of his own sperm without marriage.. Etc etc..

Also possible option for a woman willingly agrees to be a surrogate mother ..

1... Money for her immediate reasons
2.. Business addicted
3.. Lost her respect/ chastity due to some unfortunate reasons or intentionally..
4.... Never loves to grow children of her own.. Etc etc..

Well note the suffering of Maryam she went through in her society without a father even though it was God's will.. .. So,  It clearly indicates no chaste woman will voluntarily accept any such act to bear a child of another and in the end doesn't belong to her legally.. So only a woman who has no self respect to her chastity can contribute to such act... Do you agree as a woman to my statement above? It not explain why..

Let's see what Quran says.. 42:49-50 "..... .... He creates what he wills. He gives to whom He wills female [children], and He gives to whom He wills males. Or He makes them [both] males and females, and He renders whom He wills barren. Indeed, He is Knowing and Competent.

Now God says He Wills He grants... So that's God's will.. So being barren is God's will or having children...
So.. When one is barren and if still they Get child that means it was not the will of God... Baby cannot be a wedded couple's  child if surrogate mother gives birth.. Coz genuinely God rendered her barren... Well..well here she has a child and rejoicing while God rendered her barren. Did God grant the couple in fact a child?  No... That's totally against ethical way and only through unethical way it can be achieved... Against God's will and grant.. It is like God didn't give one riches but he opted to gain riches in unethical ways and here he has riches.. Does it mean Did God give riches to him?  No..
Unethical ways evil ways are always evil.. God doesn't prohibit each and everything in Quran but God never recommend evil ways.. Further God always says to us follow the best in Quran and explore QURAN... So for certain matters of life we have to penetrate with exploration in quran and take the best to follow...

Without an unchaste woman you will never have that baby if your wife is barren... Not only that surrogate mother is unchaste but she has to be heartless to give a baby whome she bore for 9 months to couples every year.. Selling her womb for petty price... Like selling ones own organ for price.. Example kidney ..
If God rendered your wife barren why you reject God's decision?  Why not pray for ages for a child .. Losing hope is not the sign of believer...

Further adoption is not at all comparable with this act.. Coz adopted child is not ones biological child at all.. That's  very manifest within Quran.. you may know the child's parents or not while adopting.. No harm.. Allowed.. Ethical.. .
Reasons for adoption is pure...
1... From parents who have many children who is finding unable to bring them up... So willingly give for adoption.. Still they are the biological parents..
2...from orphanage
3... From unknown sources... Left on public places.. Etc etc..
These make perfect sense.. Purely ethical and quranically allowed even directly.. Under the conditions no adopted child is biological child of anyone.. Call them by their biological parents name.. Though they live with adopted parents.. So simple..
Your view of husband having second marriage is no way near to the subject surrogacy.. Use your wits pls..

God allows breastfeeding by mothers other than the child/ren...so blood of another goes into another's body.. So donating blood can be much acceptable based on that rendition in quran .. That's my take..
But donating sperm or surrogate mother is not ethical.. But evil... If one donate sperm coz of his donation of sperm many a babies are born but he is unaware.. That's so unethical... Unnecessary reproduction going against nature and agsinst willingness of God.. Everything happens according to the will of God but not with willingness of God..

Satan promised he will corrupt the nature... So it's only that he can corrupt nature if one follows Satan.. ... It clearly shows that such evil act is prompted by Satan making it seem perfectly alright.. Whoever follows Satan he misguides you..

[Sania Haque]

Peace everyone..

First of all Sania, let's find out the root cause, WHY a person or persons go for the option of surrogacy OR surrogate mother?

Possible options

1 ... Wedded couple but no child naturally
2... Wedded couple no child coz of some unfortunate reasons/incidents..
3... Anyone who wishes to adopt a child of his own sperm without marriage.. Etc etc..

Also possible option for a woman willingly agrees to be a surrogate mother ..

1... Money for her immediate reasons
2.. Business addicted
3.. Lost her respect/ chastity due to some unfortunate reasons or intentionally..
4.... Never loves to grow children of her own.. Etc etc..

Well note the suffering of Maryam she went through in her society without a father even though it was God's will.. .. So,  It clearly indicates no chaste woman will voluntarily accept any such act to bear a child of another and in the end doesn't belong to her legally.. So only a woman who has no self respect to her chastity can contribute to such act... Do you agree as a woman to my statement above? It not explain why..

Let's see what Quran says.. 42:49-50 "..... .... He creates what he wills. He gives to whom He wills female [children], and He gives to whom He wills males. Or He makes them [both] males and females, and He renders whom He wills barren. Indeed, He is Knowing and Competent.

Now God says He Wills He grants... So that's God's will.. So being barren is God's will or having children...
So.. When one is barren and if still they Get child that means it was not the will of God... Baby cannot be a wedded couple's  child if surrogate mother gives birth.. Coz genuinely God rendered her barren... Well..well here she has a child and rejoicing while God rendered her barren. Did God grant the couple in fact a child?  No... That's totally against ethical way and only through unethical way it can be achieved... Against God's will and grant.. It is like God didn't give one riches but he opted to gain riches in unethical ways and here he has riches.. Does it mean Did God give riches to him?  No..
Unethical ways evil ways are always evil.. God doesn't prohibit each and everything in Quran but God never recommend evil ways.. Further God always says to us follow the best in Quran and explore QURAN... So for certain matters of life we have to penetrate with exploration in quran and take the best to follow...

Without an unchaste woman you will never have that baby if your wife is barren... Not only that surrogate mother is unchaste but she has to be heartless to give a baby whome she bore for 9 months to couples every year.. Selling her womb for petty price... Like selling ones own organ for price.. Example kidney ..
If God rendered your wife barren why you reject God's decision?  Why not pray for ages for a child .. Losing hope is not the sign of believer...

Further adoption is not at all comparable with this act.. Coz adopted child is not ones biological child at all.. That's  very manifest within Quran.. you may know the child's parents or not while adopting.. No harm.. Allowed.. Ethical.. .
Reasons for adoption is pure...
1... From parents who have many children who is finding unable to bring them up... So willingly give for adoption.. Still they are the biological parents..
2...from orphanage
3... From unknown sources... Left on public places.. Etc etc..
These make perfect sense.. Purely ethical and quranically allowed even directly.. Under the conditions no adopted child is biological child of anyone.. Call them by their biological parents name.. Though they live with adopted parents.. So simple..
Your view of husband having second marriage is no way near to the subject surrogacy.. Use your wits pls..

God allows breastfeeding by mothers other than the child/ren...so blood of another goes into another's body.. So donating blood can be much acceptable based on that rendition in quran .. That's my take..
But donating sperm or surrogate mother is not ethical.. But evil... If one donate sperm coz of his donation of sperm many a babies are born but he is unaware.. That's so unethical... Unnecessary reproduction going against nature and agsinst willingness of God.. Everything happens according to the will of God but not with willingness of God..

Satan promised he will corrupt the nature... So it's only that he can corrupt nature if one follows Satan.. ... It clearly shows that such evil act is prompted by Satan making it seem perfectly alright.. Whoever follows Satan he misguides you..

Why do you have to always assume the worse ? Do you realize that family members also lend their wombs? There are mothers who lend their wombs to their daughters. There are sisters who lend their wombs to their siblings. yoou cannot lump everyone in the same category. I am not asking for a woman's character certificate here, I dont care why other choose to do something, that's their life, I am not in their shoes to judge them. Some people are desperate and only Allah knows what's going in their life. Now so I am asking what's your opinion on prosthetic body parts ? Allah chose to make them disabled so they should live with it. That can be your opinion but that's not mine.. Allah rendered that person disabled but well well they are going against Allah's plan, definitely they are inviting Allah's wrath. That is just unethical.  If God rendered you disabled why dont you just ask for sabr from Allah. Alternative options doesn't mean someone is going against Allah.I definitely don't think that if a person gets a prosthetic, even though God made him disabled, they are going against the will of Allah. And I definitely donot agree with your statement.  The society in which Maryam as lived is far more different than the society we are living. Anyways yours and mine definition of evil definitely differs. Thanks for your input. Peace, brother.

[Sania Haque]

Why do you have to always assume the worse ? Do you realize that family members also lend their wombs? There are mothers who lend their wombs to their daughters. There are sisters who lend their wombs to their siblings. yoou cannot lump everyone in the same category. I am not asking for a woman's character certificate here, I dont care why other choose to do something, that's their life, I am not in their shoes to judge them. Some people are desperate and only Allah knows what's going in their life. Now so I am asking what's your opinion on prosthetic body parts ? Allah chose to make them disabled so they should live with it. That can be your opinion but that's not mine.. Allah rendered that person disabled but well well they are going against Allah's plan, definitely they are inviting Allah's wrath. That is just unethical.  If God rendered you disabled why dont you just ask for sabr from Allah. Alternative options doesn't mean someone is going against Allah.I definitely don't think that if a person gets a prosthetic, even though God made him disabled, they are going against the will of Allah. And I definitely donot agree with your statement.  The society in which Maryam as lived is far more different than the society we are living. Anyways yours and mine definition of evil definitely differs. Thanks for your input. Peace, brother.

Secondly, Maryam as suffered the humiliation Because the society thought she committed zina. She was a chaste woman and people accused her of being with a man. I donot expect someone like yourself to twist the story of Maryam as to support your opinion. As for saying breastfeeding involves transfer of blood, i dont know if you mean it in literal sense or you actually mean WBCs.

[Amra94]

Peace everyone..

First of all Sania, let's find out the root cause, WHY a person or persons go for the option of surrogacy OR surrogate mother?

Possible options

1 ... Wedded couple but no child naturally
2... Wedded couple no child coz of some unfortunate reasons/incidents..
3... Anyone who wishes to adopt a child of his own sperm without marriage.. Etc etc..

Also possible option for a woman willingly agrees to be a surrogate mother ..

1... Money for her immediate reasons
2.. Business addicted
3.. Lost her respect/ chastity due to some unfortunate reasons or intentionally..
4.... Never loves to grow children of her own.. Etc etc..

Well note the suffering of Maryam she went through in her society without a father even though it was God's will.. .. So,  It clearly indicates no chaste woman will voluntarily accept any such act to bear a child of another and in the end doesn't belong to her legally.. So only a woman who has no self respect to her chastity can contribute to such act... Do you agree as a woman to my statement above? It not explain why..

Let's see what Quran says.. 42:49-50 "..... .... He creates what he wills. He gives to whom He wills female [children], and He gives to whom He wills males. Or He makes them [both] males and females, and He renders whom He wills barren. Indeed, He is Knowing and Competent.

Now God says He Wills He grants... So that's God's will.. So being barren is God's will or having children...
So.. When one is barren and if still they Get child that means it was not the will of God... Baby cannot be a wedded couple's  child if surrogate mother gives birth.. Coz genuinely God rendered her barren... Well..well here she has a child and rejoicing while God rendered her barren. Did God grant the couple in fact a child?  No... That's totally against ethical way and only through unethical way it can be achieved... Against God's will and grant.. It is like God didn't give one riches but he opted to gain riches in unethical ways and here he has riches.. Does it mean Did God give riches to him?  No..
Unethical ways evil ways are always evil.. God doesn't prohibit each and everything in Quran but God never recommend evil ways.. Further God always says to us follow the best in Quran and explore QURAN... So for certain matters of life we have to penetrate with exploration in quran and take the best to follow...

Without an unchaste woman you will never have that baby if your wife is barren... Not only that surrogate mother is unchaste but she has to be heartless to give a baby whome she bore for 9 months to couples every year.. Selling her womb for petty price... Like selling ones own organ for price.. Example kidney ..
If God rendered your wife barren why you reject God's decision?  Why not pray for ages for a child .. Losing hope is not the sign of believer...

Further adoption is not at all comparable with this act.. Coz adopted child is not ones biological child at all.. That's  very manifest within Quran.. you may know the child's parents or not while adopting.. No harm.. Allowed.. Ethical.. .
Reasons for adoption is pure...
1... From parents who have many children who is finding unable to bring them up... So willingly give for adoption.. Still they are the biological parents..
2...from orphanage
3... From unknown sources... Left on public places.. Etc etc..
These make perfect sense.. Purely ethical and quranically allowed even directly.. Under the conditions no adopted child is biological child of anyone.. Call them by their biological parents name.. Though they live with adopted parents.. So simple..
Your view of husband having second marriage is no way near to the subject surrogacy.. Use your wits pls..

God allows breastfeeding by mothers other than the child/ren...so blood of another goes into another's body.. So donating blood can be much acceptable based on that rendition in quran .. That's my take..
But donating sperm or surrogate mother is not ethical.. But evil... If one donate sperm coz of his donation of sperm many a babies are born but he is unaware.. That's so unethical... Unnecessary reproduction going against nature and agsinst willingness of God.. Everything happens according to the will of God but not with willingness of God..

Satan promised he will corrupt the nature... So it's only that he can corrupt nature if one follows Satan.. ... It clearly shows that such evil act is prompted by Satan making it seem perfectly alright.. Whoever follows Satan he misguides you..

Yes like you said God makes some women barren, doing unnatural things like surrogacy is going against God's will. And there are so many orphans, if you really want a child adopt one. Quran sure talks a lot about caring for orphans.

[Sania Haque]

I tried to search posts on this topic but I wasn't able to find anything. Sectarians prohibit it for weird reasons which I personally donot find convincing. From the pov of Quran, is it ethically wrong ? To some extent I can see that if it's traditional surrogacy where surrogate is the biological mother of the child and her egg is combined with the intended father's or donor's sperm and the donor and the surrogate are not married but what about gestational surrogacy (aka the Host method) in which the surrogate becomes pregnant via embryo transfer with a child of which she is not the biological mother ?

Hadithians prohibit even the traditional surrogacy if the biological mother is not married to the father and give reasons like it will create a lineage problem. But I donot see how it's going to create any problem. It's the same as adopting and even it is same has a husband having a child from second wife ( this has been practiced since ages ). They say that this is equivalent to zina  since the surrogate is using the sperm of a person who is not her husband but how is fusion of two gametes can be equal to zina I donot see their logic here tbh. I didn't know Allah prohibited zina because the couple are producing illegitimate babies. Hearing their argument just killed my brain cells but I would like a Quranic input here. 

As for gestational surrogacy they quote the verse in Surah al-Mujadalah (58: 2) where the Quran says:

"...their mothers are only those who conceived them and gave birth to them (waladna hum)."

As i said to some extent i understood that traditional surrogacy could be wrong if the donor is not surrogate's husband but I didn't find anything wrong with gestational surrogacy. But now they quote this verse and I dont know what to think. I dont want to blindly believe them. Is it really true that Quran doesn't consider the egg donor as a biological mom, but a woman who carried the baby despite not sharing any genetic ties with baby ? I do feel that they might have twisted the verse as the whole ayah goes like this

Those of you who ˹sinfully˺ divorce their wives by comparing them to their mothers ˹should know that˺ their wives are in no way their mothers. None can be their mothers except those who gave birth to them. What they say is certainly detestable and false. Yet Allah is truly Ever-Pardoning, All-Forgiving.

But I am not sure. I think I am not being able to get out of my sectarian mindset of trying to find the the haramness/halalness of everything. my rational side says this is utter bs and surrogacy is definitely not forbidden. My brainwashed side says to even confirm whether breathing is haram or not (jk). What's your opinion on this ?

PS bit off topic but how do you delete a post/reply here

Okay I would like to make one correction here, I do want your opinion but which is based on solid proofs from Quran and not on circular reasoning. I hold a strong opinion that surrogacy is very much permissible in Islam. If not for the verse I mentioned I wouldn't even be asking this question. The other options like fostering/adoption better ? Yes. But that doesn't mean that other ways are prohibited if it is better and different from the traditional ways. As of now I really donot pay any heed to conservative Quranist's opinions. Their beliefs and way of reasoning mirrors the sectarians and there's nothing wrong with it but I have spent my whole life trying to view Quran through circular reasonings, now when I am trying to re discover Quran I want to use more logic now. Human opinions matter nothing at all in the face of Quranic evidences. I really dont care what others find unethical, I want some kind Quranic evidences that at least makes me ponder upon on it ( for example the one i mentioned in my original post ), i dont want personal deductions and reasoning when the message of some of the verses is obviously clear. Surrogacy does not create problem with lineage because obviously we know who's genes are being contributed. There is no freaking  way surrogacy = sexual intercourse and whoever says that then I am sorry i really feel like you are functioning on one brain cell ( no offense ). From my understanding of the verse, Allah is trying to say that no one is your mother except who gave birth to you because obviously you share her genes. But since I have not extensively studied the Quran properly and I have just started reading it from the very start, I want to be sure before accepting my view. Thanks, peace

[Noon waalqalami]

peace, natural/surrogate woman who gives birth or breastfeeds is considered a mother.

Gotthelf Bergstrasse Archive: Cairo, National Library: qāf 47
606-652, CE (95.4%) [¹⁴C-dating from ms.or.fol. 4313]
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/23?handschrift=73



31:14 ووصينا and instruct we of الانسن the humankind بولديه with parents his/said person حملته carry she him امه mother his وهنا weakness of علي on وهن weakness وفصاله and separation his في in (within <= less than or equal to) عامين year two ان that اشكر be thankful لي to me ولولديك and to parents your الي to me المصير the destiny

46:15 ووصينا and instruct we of الانسن the humankind بولديه with parents his/said person حسنا best/goodness of حملته carry she him امه mother his كرها dislike of/unwillingly ووضعته and gave birth him كرها dislike of/unwillingly وحمله and carry his وفصاله and separation his ثلثون thirty شهرا lunar cycle of حتي until اذا when of بلغ reach اشده vigor his وبلغ and reach اربعين group of forty سنه year/timeframe قال said رب lord اوزعني grants me ان that اشكر I thank نعمتك favor your التي the one انعمت favors thou علي upon me وعلي and upon ولدي parents mine وان and that اعمل I work صلحا righteous of ترضه please you واصلح and reconciles لي for me في in ذريتي progeny mine اني indeed I تبت turn (repent) اليك to you واني and indeed I من of المسلمين those acquiescent

Thus regardless conception method: same calculations apply min natural survival ~5 months.

p = pregnancy time/carry his (variable)
w = weaning time/separation his (variable)
w <= 730 days {31:14 (2 x 365 days = 730 days i.e. <= 2 solar years)}

870 days – p <= 730 days {46:15 30 x (lunar months / day) = 870 days}
p = 870 days – 730 days = 140+ days

30 shr = preg | preg | preg + wean | wean | wean
(Days) #days | #wks |#mths + #days| #wks| #mths

870.00 = 116.00 16.57 4.00 + 754.00 107.71 26.00 <= amayni (solar) 730 days (False!)
_____________________________________________________________________
870.00 = 140.00 20.00 4.83 + 730.00 104.29 25.17 <= amayni (solar) 730 days (True!)
870.00 = 145.00 20.71 5.00 + 725.00 103.57 25.00 <= amayni (solar) 730 days (True!)
870.00 = 151.00 21.57 5.21 + 719.00 102.71 24.79
870.00 = 153.00 21.86 5.28 + 717.00 102.43 24.72
870.00 = 164.00 23.43 5.66 + 706.00 100.86 24.34
870.00 = 174.00 24.86 6.00 + 696.00 99.43 24.00
870.00 = 179.20 25.60 6.18 + 690.80 98.69 23.82
870.00 = 203.00 29.00 7.00 + 667.00 95.29 23.00
870.00 = 232.00 33.14 8.00 + 638.00 91.14 22.00
870.00 = 261.00 37.29 9.00 + 609.00 87.00 21.00 (average pregnancy 9 + 21 weaning)
870.00 = 290.00 41.43 10.00 + 580.00 82.86 20.00
870.00 = 319.00 45.57 11.00 + 551.00 78.71 19.00
870.00 = 348.00 49.71 12.00 + 522.00 74.57 18.00

53:32 الذين the ones يجتنبون avoiding كباير greater الاثم the detriment والفوحش and the immoralities الا except اللمم the small faults ان indeed ربك lord your واسع extensive المغفره the forgiveness هو he اعلم knows بكم in/concerning you اذ when انشاكم raises you من from الارض the land واذ and when انتم are you اجنه fetuses في in بطون interior body امهتكم mothers yours فلا so not تزكوا thou purify ye of انفسكم souls yours/yourselves هو he اعلم knows بمن in who اتقي heeds he

[Neptin]

Salaam, gestational surrogacy is permissible in Qur'anic principles, as for traditional surrogacy, I'm not quite certain.

You say you're looking for verses. There are no verses, it's all about principles. There is no extramarital sex involved, there is no kind of harm involved. So, it is all good.

[jkhan]

Why do you have to always assume the worse ? Do you realize that family members also lend their wombs? There are mothers who lend their wombs to their daughters. There are sisters who lend their wombs to their siblings. yoou cannot lump everyone in the same category. I am not asking for a woman's character certificate here, I dont care why other choose to do something, that's their life, I am not in their shoes to judge them. Some people are desperate and only Allah knows what's going in their life. Now so I am asking what's your opinion on prosthetic body parts ? Allah chose to make them disabled so they should live with it. That can be your opinion but that's not mine.. Allah rendered that person disabled but well well they are going against Allah's plan, definitely they are inviting Allah's wrath. That is just unethical.  If God rendered you disabled why dont you just ask for sabr from Allah. Alternative options doesn't mean someone is going against Allah.I definitely don't think that if a person gets a prosthetic, even though God made him disabled, they are going against the will of Allah. And I definitely donot agree with your statement.  The society in which Maryam as lived is far more different than the society we are living. Anyways yours and mine definition of evil definitely differs. Thanks for your input. Peace, brother.

Dear...
I quoted a Quranic verse and surrounded my explanation with it...if you failed to grasp it then it is your weakness.. Worse is that if one happen to do that...
Family members may do with love,  but cannot go against God's teaching...
God says I gave you two eyes for you to see... If he donate one eye to family member for love,  that is against God's creation... Love of family cannot break law of God.. If sister gives her womb to her sister out of love that doesn't make sense.. then Biologically father of the children of both sisters is one.. Can you suicide for the love of your family so that enough food for others ?  No. There are things that you can sacrifice for the sake of family and there things you shouldn't..
Maryam I brought to illustrate a chaste woman's character.. Is Maryam only the chaste woman on this earth.. No.. Chaste woman can't do this.. For love or any reason she can't bear a child of another in her womb.. Time of Maryam or now or future..society is same.i dont need to give woman's character  certificate but God gives.. God calls Maryam in Quran she was a chaste woman and a virgin.. So being chaste in the eyes of God pure.. . By giving a birth to a child to someone who has no child you are not doing any favor to God any good to your account.. But you only violate God's system and you practice evil..

You asked my opinion on prosthetic body parts.. And you answered on behalf of me.. Who gave that authority to you?  Did I say so.. Just don't rush Sania... Either you read Quran thoroughly and question others or be silent till God guides you.. Jumping to run before trigering the lever is meaningless..
Artificial or prosthetic objects (body parts, gadgets etc)  absolutely fine...
God asked Musa what is in your hand... Musa said that this is my club it helps me for various purposes... Hope you get what that means..
To use what Human created is never objecced by God..
For example God didn't create the knife for you but material..but human.. So with that our lives are made easy...making our lives easy by using others help it objects is absolutely  fine..
If one lost his leg by accident or he doesn't have a leg by birth he is deprived of walking.. But God didn't take his life away.  So he will find a way to walk in hardship.. Getting assistance from others / other objects is never against the nature of God..  It is not changing nature.. But note carefully... Choosing evil way to accomplish our misfortunes is against God's law / God's nature.. Hope that sums up all your such concerns..
You may ask what's wrong in abortion... Root cause of abortion is misfortunes... To hide or avoid a misfortunes fallen in one's life cannot choose an evil way...

Evil is evil even it helps for self or others...

[Sania Haque]

Dear...
I quoted a Quranic verse and surrounded my explanation with it...if you failed to grasp it then it is your weakness.. Worse is that if one happen to do that...
Family members may do with love,  but cannot go against God's teaching...
God says I gave you two eyes for you to see... If he donate one eye to family member for love,  that is against God's creation... Love of family cannot break law of God.. If sister gives her womb to her sister out of love that doesn't make sense.. then Biologically father of the children of both sisters is one.. Can you suicide for the love of your family so that enough food for others ?  No. There are things that you can sacrifice for the sake of family and there things you shouldn't..
Maryam I brought to illustrate a chaste woman's character.. Is Maryam only the chaste woman on this earth.. No.. Chaste woman can't do this.. For love or any reason she can't bear a child of another in her womb.. Time of Maryam or now or future..society is same.i dont need to give woman's character  certificate but God gives.. God calls Maryam in Quran she was a chaste woman and a virgin.. So being chaste in the eyes of God pure.. . By giving a birth to a child to someone who has no child you are not doing any favor to God any good to your account.. But you only violate God's system and you practice evil..

You asked my opinion on prosthetic body parts.. And you answered on behalf of me.. Who gave that authority to you?  Did I say so.. Just don't rush Sania... Either you read Quran thoroughly and question others or be silent till God guides you.. Jumping to run before trigering the lever is meaningless..
Artificial or prosthetic objects (body parts, gadgets etc)  absolutely fine...
God asked Musa what is in your hand... Musa said that this is my club it helps me for various purposes... Hope you get what that means..
To use what Human created is never objecced by God..
For example God didn't create the knife for you but material..but human.. So with that our lives are made easy...making our lives easy by using others help it objects is absolutely  fine..
If one lost his leg by accident or he doesn't have a leg by birth he is deprived of walking.. But God didn't take his life away.  So he will find a way to walk in hardship.. Getting assistance from others / other objects is never against the nature of God..  It is not changing nature.. But note carefully... Choosing evil way to accomplish our misfortunes is against God's law / God's nature.. Hope that sums up all your such concerns..
You may ask what's wrong in abortion... Root cause of abortion is misfortunes... To hide or avoid a misfortunes fallen in one's life cannot choose an evil way...

Evil is evil even it helps for self or others...

See, I do not believe in the kind of circular reasoning you are giving. I do appreciate you trying to educate me but no offense but the way you reason is just like how any sectarians reasons. I think we have different ethical values that's why we are not able to find common grounds. And I wasn't talking on behalf of you ( i was being sarcastic in previous comment sorry 👉🏻👈🏻 ) anyways I donot see God giving any character certificate to women. Your beliefs I respect it, I just don't agree with it. I honestly donot get the logics you use. Thank you, peace

[Sania Haque]

peace, natural/surrogate woman who gives birth or breastfeeds is considered a mother.

Gotthelf Bergstrasse Archive: Cairo, National Library: qāf 47
606-652, CE (95.4%) [¹⁴C-dating from ms.or.fol. 4313]
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/23?handschrift=73



31:14 ووصينا and instruct we of الانسن the humankind بولديه with parents his/said person حملته carry she him امه mother his وهنا weakness of علي on وهن weakness وفصاله and separation his في in (within <= less than or equal to) عامين year two ان that اشكر be thankful لي to me ولولديك and to parents your الي to me المصير the destiny

46:15 ووصينا and instruct we of الانسن the humankind بولديه with parents his/said person حسنا best/goodness of حملته carry she him امه mother his كرها dislike of/unwillingly ووضعته and gave birth him كرها dislike of/unwillingly وحمله and carry his وفصاله and separation his ثلثون thirty شهرا lunar cycle of حتي until اذا when of بلغ reach اشده vigor his وبلغ and reach اربعين group of forty سنه year/timeframe قال said رب lord اوزعني grants me ان that اشكر I thank نعمتك favor your التي the one انعمت favors thou علي upon me وعلي and upon ولدي parents mine وان and that اعمل I work صلحا righteous of ترضه please you واصلح and reconciles لي for me في in ذريتي progeny mine اني indeed I تبت turn (repent) اليك to you واني and indeed I من of المسلمين those acquiescent

Thus regardless conception method: same calculations apply min natural survival ~5 months.

p = pregnancy time/carry his (variable)
w = weaning time/separation his (variable)
w <= 730 days {31:14 (2 x 365 days = 730 days i.e. <= 2 solar years)}

870 days – p <= 730 days {46:15 30 x (lunar months / day) = 870 days}
p = 870 days – 730 days = 140+ days

30 shr = preg | preg | preg + wean | wean | wean
(Days) #days | #wks |#mths + #days| #wks| #mths

870.00 = 116.00 16.57 4.00 + 754.00 107.71 26.00 <= amayni (solar) 730 days (False!)
_____________________________________________________________________
870.00 = 140.00 20.00 4.83 + 730.00 104.29 25.17 <= amayni (solar) 730 days (True!)
870.00 = 145.00 20.71 5.00 + 725.00 103.57 25.00 <= amayni (solar) 730 days (True!)
870.00 = 151.00 21.57 5.21 + 719.00 102.71 24.79
870.00 = 153.00 21.86 5.28 + 717.00 102.43 24.72
870.00 = 164.00 23.43 5.66 + 706.00 100.86 24.34
870.00 = 174.00 24.86 6.00 + 696.00 99.43 24.00
870.00 = 179.20 25.60 6.18 + 690.80 98.69 23.82
870.00 = 203.00 29.00 7.00 + 667.00 95.29 23.00
870.00 = 232.00 33.14 8.00 + 638.00 91.14 22.00
870.00 = 261.00 37.29 9.00 + 609.00 87.00 21.00 (average pregnancy 9 + 21 weaning)
870.00 = 290.00 41.43 10.00 + 580.00 82.86 20.00
870.00 = 319.00 45.57 11.00 + 551.00 78.71 19.00
870.00 = 348.00 49.71 12.00 + 522.00 74.57 18.00

53:32 الذين the ones يجتنبون avoiding كباير greater الاثم the detriment والفوحش and the immoralities الا except اللمم the small faults ان indeed ربك lord your واسع extensive المغفره the forgiveness هو he اعلم knows بكم in/concerning you اذ when انشاكم raises you من from الارض the land واذ and when انتم are you اجنه fetuses في in بطون interior body امهتكم mothers yours فلا so not تزكوا thou purify ye of انفسكم souls yours/yourselves هو he اعلم knows بمن in who اتقي heeds he

No I do understand that surrogate mothers are considered the mothers. They say surrogacy creates a problem Because the biological mother whose genes baby carries is not considered thr mother of the baby since Quran says that a mother is who carries the baby for 9 months, gives birth to them and breastfed them. On the other hand biological mothers are mothers in Islam. 😐 What is the heck is even this reasoning.

[Sania Haque]

Salaam, gestational surrogacy is permissible in Qur'anic principles, as for traditional surrogacy, I'm not quite certain.

You say you're looking for verses. There are no verses, it's all about principles. There is no extramarital sex involved, there is no kind of harm involved. So, it is all good.

Ah no I am looking for verses which can give me some insight whether the claim by sectarians that biological mother is not considered the mother of the baby Because according to Quran a mother is the one who carries you and breastfeed you, not the one with whom you share your genes, is true or not ? I was looking for more Quranic evidences like that because then the sectarians are implying that the baby can also marry the biological mother since according to their understanding of Quran biological mothers are not actually mothers. Which kind of sounds absurd. I donot understand why some people have a problem with it. At the end of the day it's just transfering the cells into your body. Dont we transfer blood, kidney, cornea etc ? In my eyes it's the same thing tbh

[jkhan]

See, I do not believe in the kind of circular reasoning you are giving. I do appreciate you trying to educate me but no offense but the way you reason is just like how any sectarians reasons. I think we have different ethical values that's why we are not able to find common grounds. And I wasn't talking on behalf of you ( i was being sarcastic in previous comment sorry 👉🏻👈🏻 ) anyways I donot see God giving any character certificate to women. Your beliefs I respect it, I just don't agree with it. I honestly donot get the logics you use. Thank you, peace

Peace...

I don't blame you.. Coz I know you are very young but curious as well to pose questions... Posing questions and finding answers cultivate a person...
I never want you to take my way... My way is satisfied to me coz I am certain that I take Quran for guidance... Ensure yourself whether you take Quran for guidance... I mean in the end for salvation...

Note:  quran is a book to explore and get what suits best for our questions and concerns... There are in Quran straight forward rules and there are within Quran you have to penetrate for finding the right path...
Just tell me simply... I hope I have asked this question before also to someone in this forum... Has Allah forbidden a biological daughter from marrying her father?
4:23 prohibits a father from marrying a daughter but not a daughter marrying a father... Or can a woman marry her father in  law? No separate instructions given to daughter etc.. Further, does Quran prohibits a brother marrying another brother? If not how you or anyone say that brother to brother or sister to sister marriage is not allowed?  Or you or anyone make it allowed since Quran not prohibited literally? That's why God says do they not explore deeply QURAN,  are their hearts locked up?  47:24 why we need to explore Quran if things are manifest.. What happens if we deeply explore QURAN.. Do we understand same way as they who didn't explore it..

I explored the Quran and explained what I understood from my exploration but you don't like the way I reason it saying that I don't like the way you circular reason it and it doesn't  make logic.. That's your quote... No grudges.. Coz path is manifest in Quran... failing to perceive is one's destiny..

So answer to my above questions within Quran.....

If one person sells his sperm for money and somewhere a boy got birth and with the time this person's own daughter and his sperm son fall in love unknown and they get married.. Who is responsible for this crime against Quranic law? The one who allowed surrogacy is responsible..

If you don't use quran in its entirety, then it is your choice to accept anything that pleases you regardless whether God allowed or not
That's all..

[Sania Haque]

Peace...

I don't blame you.. Coz I know you are very young but curious as well to pose questions... Posing questions and finding answers cultivate a person...
I never want you to take my way... My way is satisfied to me coz I am certain that I take Quran for guidance... Ensure yourself whether you take Quran for guidance... I mean in the end for salvation...

Note:  quran is a book to explore and get what suits best for our questions and concerns... There are in Quran straight forward rules and there are within Quran you have to penetrate for finding the right path...
Just tell me simply... I hope I have asked this question before also to someone in this forum... Has Allah forbidden a biological daughter from marrying her father?
4:23 prohibits a father from marrying a daughter but not a daughter marrying a father... Or can a woman marry her father in  law? No separate instructions given to daughter etc.. Further, does Quran prohibits a brother marrying another brother? If not how you or anyone say that brother to brother or sister to sister marriage is not allowed?  Or you or anyone make it allowed since Quran not prohibited literally? That's why God says do they not explore deeply QURAN,  are their hearts locked up?  47:24 why we need to explore Quran if things are manifest.. What happens if we deeply explore QURAN.. Do we understand same way as they who didn't explore it..

I explored the Quran and explained what I understood from my exploration but you don't like the way I reason it saying that I don't like the way you circular reason it and it doesn't  make logic.. That's your quote... No grudges.. Coz path is manifest in Quran... failing to perceive is one's destiny..

So answer to my above questions within Quran.....

If one person sells his sperm for money and somewhere a boy got birth and with the time this person's own daughter and his sperm son fall in love unknown and they get married.. Who is responsible for this crime against Quranic law? The one who allowed surrogacy is responsible..

If you don't use quran in its entirety, then it is your choice to accept anything that pleases you regardless whether God allowed or not
That's all..

Aren't you talking of artificial insemination ? Surrogacy is totally different from. Artificial insemination Because the biological father and mother of the baby is totally known. Secondly, the demerits of something doesn't renders it prohibited. That's really weak reasoning. A person always has the chance to get addicted to antidepressants and anti anxiety drugs and addiction is totally haram in Islam. Does that mean using Quran's reasoning we would say anti depressants and anti anxiety pills are forbidden ? But to answer your question people using Artificial insemination wrongly doesn't makes the whole thing prohibited. In Islam, people are responsible for their own actions, Allah doesn't prohibits a thing because some people are exploiting the things he made lawful. If a crime like that is committed then only Allah knows what's gonna happen. It all depends on the intentions of the person selling his sperm, whether he did out of necessity or he did it out of greed, nothing is going to happen to the brother and sister Because they are innocent and they have had no idea. If they find out in the future the. It's their decision what to do. And this is something that can totally happen in a traditional conceptions as well. There are fathers who leave behind their wives and kids and cut off all connections from them. Then they get married to someone else and have a child. Now just imagine, his two kids meet each other and fall in love and get married. Eho is to blame here? In no way artificial insemination is haram, and hence it's necessary for you to remember that there are many people who practice AI safely.

[Neptin]

Okay I would like to make one correction here, I do want your opinion but which is based on solid proofs from Quran and not on circular reasoning. I hold a strong opinion that surrogacy is very much permissible in Islam. If not for the verse I mentioned I wouldn't even be asking this question.

Peace. That's his opinion based on his own proof from the Qur'an. You can't hope for anything different. If you do, then you're probably putting Qur'anists on a pedestal. Like any other theist, a Qur'anist's beliefs are mostly influenced by their cultural and personal dispositions.

I think the opponents are just naturally averse to the idea of surrogacy, accordingly they resort rationalizing their aversion with the Qur'an. But then they do it so badly as all they cite are passages that have no bearing with surrogacy. It's a form of abusing the Qur'an. Take the Qur'an and find in it justification to ban or dissuade others for things that personally offends or appalls them. Kind of like what Muslims do on other subjects like anal sex.

The other options like fostering/adoption better ? Yes.

No. Adoption is not necessarily better. It's a mixed bag. Especially, if you already have a full biological child, bringing in an adoptee could sow the seeds for future envy and rivalry between your adoptee and non-adopted children. Plus, you could lose your adoptee at anytime to their biological parents.

As of now I really donot pay any heed to conservative Quranist's opinions. Their beliefs and way of reasoning mirrors the sectarians and there's nothing wrong with it but I have spent my whole life trying to view Quran through circular reasonings, now when I am trying to re discover Quran I want to use more logic now.

  @underlined.

Hadith was never the problem, this is what 7.5 years in Qur'anist forums have taught me. The real problem is with how people are. Your approach to Qur'an and Islam is a function of the kind of person you are, which is a product of your genes, cultural background and real experiences. Your religious beliefs are an adaptation to whom you are.

So when people state, "I support X because the Qur'an prescribed it", that's kind of half truth. They support X primarily because they've been naturally conditioned to accept it. And realizing this, is very key to understanding why people hold certain beliefs that may be poorly conceived, antiquated and impractical.

Because according to Quran a mother is the one who carries you and breastfeed you, not the one with whom you share your genes, is true or not ? I was looking for more Quranic evidences like that because then the sectarians are implying that the baby can also marry the biological mother since according to their understanding of Quran biological mothers are not actually mothers. Which kind of sounds absurd

@underlined is no better than half truth. There is no definition of mother in the Qur'an. The verse 58:2 was addressed to specific men pertaining to an incident at the time of the prophet. And yes, the mothers of those men were only those who conceived and gave birth to them. But the purpose of that verse wasn't to define a mother.

The Qur'an's terms and language are restricted to the knowledge of the 7th century. At the time of it's revelation, every baby automatically carried the genes of the woman that conceives and give birth to them. They didn't even fathom gestational surrogacy then. Hence, the Qur'an never distinguished genetic mother from surrogate mother.

PS: You may state that I'm restricting the audience of Qur'an primarily to the 7th century Arabs, and I'd say "Yes". Even if we argue that Qur'an is for all times, it's language and context is limited to the 7th century Arabia.

[jkhan]

Aren't you talking of artificial insemination ? Surrogacy is totally different from. Artificial insemination Because the biological father and mother of the baby is totally known. Secondly, the demerits of something doesn't renders it prohibited. That's really weak reasoning. A person always has the chance to get addicted to antidepressants and anti anxiety drugs and addiction is totally haram in Islam. Does that mean using Quran's reasoning we would say anti depressants and anti anxiety pills are forbidden ? But to answer your question people using Artificial insemination wrongly doesn't makes the whole thing prohibited. In Islam, people are responsible for their own actions, Allah doesn't prohibits a thing because some people are exploiting the things he made lawful. If a crime like that is committed then only Allah knows what's gonna happen. It all depends on the intentions of the person selling his sperm, whether he did out of necessity or he did it out of greed, nothing is going to happen to the brother and sister Because they are innocent and they have had no idea. If they find out in the future the. It's their decision what to do. And this is something that can totally happen in a traditional conceptions as well. There are fathers who leave behind their wives and kids and cut off all connections from them. Then they get married to someone else and have a child. Now just imagine, his two kids meet each other and fall in love and get married. Eho is to blame here? In no way artificial insemination is haram, and hence it's necessary for you to remember that there are many people who practice AI safely.

You didn't reply to my question...

Further out of necessity, evil cannot be applied as right... Try to understand  that pls..

[jkhan]

Dear Neptin

Below your quote..
"I think the opponents are just naturally averse to the idea of surrogacy"

I hope you address me here as well since I am opponent  to surrogacy...
Look brother we are not againat to any act naturally...thats your wrong assumption... We can't believe in extreme truth of Quran by being already prejudice to anything.. So then our opinion overpowers Quranic truth... Surrogacy is evil coz it is evil as I explained within Quran...
Everything God doesn't need to lose out that this is haram and this halal.. Just use the tone of Quran you will find what to avoid and what to accept  ....
4:23 is a good example

[Sania Haque]

Peace. That's his opinion based on his own proof from the Qur'an. You can't hope for anything different. If you do, then you're probably putting Qur'anists on a pedestal. Like any other theist, a Qur'anist's beliefs are mostly influenced by their cultural and personal dispositions.

I think the opponents are just naturally averse to the idea of surrogacy, accordingly they resort rationalizing their aversion with the Qur'an. But then they do it so badly as all they cite are passages that have no bearing with surrogacy. It's a form of abusing the Qur'an. Take the Qur'an and find in it justification to ban or dissuade others for things that personally offends or appalls them. Kind of like what Muslims do on other subjects like anal sex.

No. Adoption is not necessarily better. It's a mixed bag. Especially, if you already have a full biological child, bringing in an adoptee could sow the seeds for future envy and rivalry between your adoptee and non-adopted children. Plus, you could lose your adoptee at anytime to their biological parents.

  @underlined.

Hadith was never the problem, this is what 7.5 years in Qur'anist forums have taught me. The real problem is with how people are. Your approach to Qur'an and Islam is a function of the kind of person you are, which is a product of your genes, cultural background and real experiences. Your religious beliefs are an adaptation to whom you are.

So when people state, "I support X because the Qur'an prescribed it", that's kind of half truth. They support X primarily because they've been naturally conditioned to accept it. And realizing this, is very key to understanding why people hold certain beliefs that may be poorly conceived, antiquated and impractical.

@underlined is no better than half truth. There is no definition of mother in the Qur'an. The verse 58:2 was addressed to specific men pertaining to an incident at the time of the prophet. And yes, the mothers of those men were only those who conceived and gave birth to them. But the purpose of that verse wasn't to define a mother.

The Qur'an's terms and language are restricted to the knowledge of the 7th century. At the time of it's revelation, every baby automatically carried the genes of the woman that conceives and give birth to them. They didn't even fathom gestational surrogacy then. Hence, the Qur'an never distinguished genetic mother from surrogate mother.

PS: You may state that I'm restricting the audience of Qur'an primarily to the 7th century Arabs, and I'd say "Yes". Even if we argue that Qur'an is for all times, it's language and context is limited to the 7th century Arabia.

I have no problem with them giving me their reasonings but damn that has to have some correlation with my question. As I said there's nothing wrong with a Quranist using sectarian's way of thinking, especially because Quranist donot impose their ideas on others ( and i think that's one of the best thing community). Jkhan has been an amazing brother to me who has from the day one encouraged me to use my own critical thinking and knowledge to come to conclusions. He can have his own views and I can have my views and we can co exist peacefully.

But that doesn't change the fact that the same kind of reasoning is made by scholars of hadith. They use the same method to derive meanings from different verses which has nothing to do with the actual questions. I have been hearing them say the same thing my whole life. It has made sense then, when I used to think that God is there to prohibit everything and make us miserable. It doesn't makes sense to me anymore. So that's why I think I am at a point where I am mostly going to disgree with conservative Quranists

[Sania Haque]

You didn't reply to my question...

Further out of necessity, evil cannot be applied as right... Try to understand  that pls..

See here, I am going to disagree with you because as you said it's not necessary that what you think evil is also perceived in the same way by others. I have already answered your question so i donot know what you want me to say now. Artificial insemination is not haram. It's not prohibited. At least bring some coherent arguement here. Anecdotes and personal opinions donot form the laws of Quran. I can whine that breastfeed a kid doesn't makes you that kid's mother but if Allah has ordained it then this is the law we have to follow it. You can give 1000s of reasons why something can be exploited and can be a crime but if Quran doesn't have any evidences against it then that thing cannot be prohibited. Simple

[jkhan]

See here, I am going to disagree with you because as you said it's not necessary that what you think evil is also perceived in the same way by others. I have already answered your question so i donot know what you want me to say now. Artificial insemination is not haram. It's not prohibited. At least bring some coherent arguement here. Anecdotes and personal opinions donot form the laws of Quran. I can whine that breastfeed a kid doesn't makes you that kid's mother but if Allah has ordained it then this is the law we have to follow it. You can give 1000s of reasons why something can be exploited and can be a crime but if Quran doesn't have any evidences against it then that thing cannot be prohibited. Simple

Peace...
Remember Sania if you say another that you can't forbid one thing at the same time you can't allow it as well for yourself, coz QURAN has not allowed it literally .. If you allow it is your own opinion only as well.. Not Quran's.. ...to avoid and reject,  Quran verses should be compared... BTW I never referred artificial insemination of wedded couple.. I know what surrogacy is.. Lol..

Okay.. Let me bring some similar questions...

1...Can one have sex before marriage with his boy friend ?
2... Can one have sex willingly with a prostitute .. Coz it is their body and both consent for pleasure?
3... Can one watch porn?   And watch porn and do sex?
4... Can one act/play a role in porn video for fun for money?
5... Can one do profession of prostitution willingly?
6.... Can one be a pimp?
7... Can one have anal sex with wife without her consent?
8... Can one have homosex since he or she is naturally addicted to homosex instead of?

9... Can one kiss a girl with her permission...
10...can one take another's help to get his masturbation done?

11... Can one have sex with animals of their choice.. If animal seems interested in it... ?

12... Can one sell his kidney etc since offer is so high while living?

13...can one have sex with robots, gadgets etc.. Etc

14... Can one live without marriage but as couple ciz of not being able take responsibilities of wedded life .. Can they live shifting their partners at will... Etc etc

Above such questions and such acts not harm anyone literally coz they do with consent... If you try direct orders from Quran I am afraid you won't find. 

Purpose of evil and purpose of good play a huge role to identify things crystal clearly...

9:67 "The hypocrite men and hypocrite women are of one another. They enjoin what is wrong and forbid what is right and close their hands. They have forgotten Allah , so He has forgotten them [accordingly]. Indeed, the hypocrites - it is they who are the defiantly disobedient"

9:112 "..... those who enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong, and those who observe the limits of Allah. And give good tidings to the believers."

As I said earlier,  God has not listed out every Evil and every good act.. It is believers who perceive them within Quran with the magnitude of act.. Failing to perceive Quran results in allowing them.. For example has God forbidden the flesh of human being for consumption? Coz only 4 things God has forbidden in which human flesh is not included... Unless you don't understand the tone of Quran you can say God has not forbidden human flesh then who the hell you are to forbid it and you also a sectarian ..
Evil is self perception and comparison of verses and outcome of act etc...
Likewise God didn't forbid homosex marriage...but comparisons allow you to perceive that it is evil.. Needless for God to mention such a common sense..

For you your way and for me my way... I am responsible for what I do and what I avoid.. And yours is your choice.

Little tip.. Find out thoroughly the evil in an act before avoiding it or allowing in one's own life not for others ..

Laws are equal to all. If surrogacy OR homosex is allowed for one and it should be allowed to all..

If suurgacy is allowed coz the technology is developed now,  so,  best way a surrogacy could be practices in the ancient time is taking the permission of barren wife by husband and have sex with surrogate mother until she conceives.. And take the baby... And why surrogacy is allowed now and not before in whay is possible for them ..

If a mother of daughter agrees to bear the created embryo, in fact she gives a birth to a child and she becomes grand mother of her own delivered child.. Though biologically grandchild is not her own coz eggs and sperm is her daughter's and son in law ... What a shame?

If such acts are very reasonable then advise to people to carry out and be responsible for what you advised.. Coz your only criteria is QURAN not forbidden..so allow human flesh as well coz not forbidden

[jkhan]

Peace everyone

Sania I am not addressing  here merely you but everyone who wish to read and may ponder and choose what probably God has in fact ordered..

33:04 " ...... Allah has not made for a man two hearts in his interior. And He has not made your wives whom you declare unlawful your mothers, And he has not made your adopted sons your [true] sons. That is [merely] your saying by your mouths, but Allah says the truth, and He guides to the

way.

33:05 "Call them by [the names of] their fathers; it is more just in the sight of Allah. But if you do not know their fathers - then they are [still] your brothers in religion and those entrusted to you. And there is no blame upon you for that in which you have erred but [only for] what your hearts intended. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful"


Above two verses almost everyone would have read.. In them God clearly talks about Adopted child/ren.. He has ALLOWED/Halal adopting a child or NOT is Upto us to decide using the reasons of the verses.. But in literal verses not listed as ALLOWED.. But we deduce it allowed..

Significant point is once we take it is allowed,  then who are these adopted children.. Are they really our own children?  No.. Strong objection from God.. Coz God refuses to call them even by adopted person as father.. If Known who the father is call them by his name and if not just as brothers (not biological but in religion)...  So if another person give birth to a child that can be only theirs... By any means child belongs to another to the extent of parents of child relationships... That further confirms by below verse..

58:02 "they are not [consequently] their mothers. Their mothers are none but those who gave birth to them"
It's common not specific to one group..

Now if one adopted a child in the form of surrogacy... Child deserves legally a father and mother in his her life.. Leave legal aside, child needs from childhood to call someone as his her father and mother..
But parents will definitely 99% will hide his her true birth mother.. Coz it is an agreement.. Once baby is delivered no more connection..
But God keeps claiming Non is one's mother other than the one who gave birth to a child.. How can one separate a birth mother from child... So..
to practice surrogacy many a Quranic instructions need to be violated obviously as under
1... Making adopted son as son or daughter ... Violation of quran.. Such parent will never call the baby adopted..
2.... Taking as mother who didn't give birth literally..
3... Discarding the one who gave birth who is in fact mother according to Quran ...
4... God says treat your parents... Depriving the child from it.. One cannot have two mothers like one cannot have two hearts

[Noon waalqalami]

Ah no I am looking for verses which can give me some insight whether the claim by sectarians that biological mother is not considered the mother of the baby Because according to Quran a mother is the one who carries you and breastfeed you, not the one with whom you share your genes, is true or not ? I was looking for more Quranic evidences like that because then the sectarians are implying that the baby can also marry the biological mother since according to their understanding of Quran biological mothers are not actually mothers. Which kind of sounds absurd. I donot understand why some people have a problem with it. At the end of the day it's just transfering the cells into your body. Dont we transfer blood, kidney, cornea etc ? In my eyes it's the same thing tbh

Peace,
The birth mother and her mother, etc. are considered mothers theirs.
Regardless of the conception method they become inheritors as well.

Quranically woman who gives birth is the mother, surrogate example:

3:47 قالت said (f) رب lord اني whence يكون being لي to me ولد offspring ولم and not يمسسني touched me بشر mortal قال said كذلك like such الله the god يخلق created ما what يشا willed اذا when of قضي decree امرا directive of فانما so solely يقول speaketh له to it كن be فيكون so being

Sanaa, Dār al-maḫṭūṭāt: DAM 01-29.1
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/47?handschrift=173



Likewise, if the father (i.e. donor) is known they are called thus otherwise brethren and friends.

33:4 ما not جعل made الله the god لرجل for man من of قلبين hearts two في in جوفه interior his وما and not جعل made ازوجكم spouses yours الي those (f/p) تظهرون thou declaring منهن of them امهتكم mothers yours وما and not جعل made ادعيكم adopted sons yours ابنكم sons yours ذلكم such yours قولكم speech yours بافوهكم with mouths yours والله and the god يقول speaketh الحق the truth وهو and he يهدي guided السبيل the pathway
33:5 ادعوهم calls ye them لابيهم to fathers theirs هو it اقسط more just عند with الله the god فان so if لم not تعلموا know ye of اباهم fathers theirs فاخونكم so brethren yours في in الدين the creed وموليكم and friends yours وليس and not is عليكم upon you جنح guilt فيما in what اخطاتم err you به in it ولكن and however ما what تعمدت intended قلوبكم hearts yours وكان and be الله the god غفورا forgiver of رحيما merciful of


The same applies with in vitro fertilization mother gives birth, father/donor if known.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterm_birth
Amillia Taylor is also often cited as the most premature baby. She was born on 24 October 2006 in Miami, Florida, U.S. at 21 weeks and 6 days (153 days) gestation. This report has created some confusion as her gestation was measured from the date of conception (through in vitro fertilization) rather than the date of her mothers last menstrual period, making her appear 2 weeks younger than if gestation was calculated by the more common method.

21 weeks + 6 days = 153 days = 5.28 months pregnancy time
Amillia requires 24.72 (25) months (30 – 5.28 (5)) breastfeeding

[Sania Haque]

Peace everyone

Sania I am not addressing  here merely you but everyone who wish to read and may ponder and choose what probably God has in fact ordered..

33:04 " ...... Allah has not made for a man two hearts in his interior. And He has not made your wives whom you declare unlawful your mothers, And he has not made your adopted sons your [true] sons. That is [merely] your saying by your mouths, but Allah says the truth, and He guides to the

way.

33:05 "Call them by [the names of] their fathers; it is more just in the sight of Allah. But if you do not know their fathers - then they are [still] your brothers in religion and those entrusted to you. And there is no blame upon you for that in which you have erred but [only for] what your hearts intended. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful"


Above two verses almost everyone would have read.. In them God clearly talks about Adopted child/ren.. He has ALLOWED/Halal adopting a child or NOT is Upto us to decide using the reasons of the verses.. But in literal verses not listed as ALLOWED.. But we deduce it allowed..

Significant point is once we take it is allowed,  then who are these adopted children.. Are they really our own children?  No.. Strong objection from God.. Coz God refuses to call them even by adopted person as father.. If Known who the father is call them by his name and if not just as brothers (not biological but in religion)...  So if another person give birth to a child that can be only theirs... By any means child belongs to another to the extent of parents of child relationships... That further confirms by below verse..

58:02 "they are not [consequently] their mothers. Their mothers are none but those who gave birth to them"
It's common not specific to one group..

Now if one adopted a child in the form of surrogacy... Child deserves legally a father and mother in his her life.. Leave legal aside, child needs from childhood to call someone as his her father and mother..
But parents will definitely 99% will hide his her true birth mother.. Coz it is an agreement.. Once baby is delivered no more connection..
But God keeps claiming Non is one's mother other than the one who gave birth to a child.. How can one separate a birth mother from child... So..
to practice surrogacy many a Quranic instructions need to be violated obviously as under
1... Making adopted son as son or daughter ... Violation of quran.. Such parent will never call the baby adopted..
2.... Taking as mother who didn't give birth literally..
3... Discarding the one who gave birth who is in fact mother according to Quran ...
4... God says treat your parents... Depriving the child from it.. One cannot have two mothers like one cannot have two hearts

Everything just went above my head. At this point you are asking questions that are plainly illogical. A surrogate baby is going to have a biological father and a biological mother so i have no idea how a baby is going to be deprived of parents. As for the surrogate mother, it depends on the contract form between the parents if she wants to be the part of baby's life or not. There are so many parents who let their children know their surrogate mothers ( if the surrogate mother wants it ). You are bringing your own emotions here. I think we should stop this discussion here. And I agree with brother neptin that Quran was revealed in the context of 7th century when the baby automatically carried the genes of the mother who conceived them.

To answer your question,

Isn't Zina forbidden? So basically how can someone has sex with their boyfriend.
Can one have sex with prostitute ? Yes they definitely can. It's their choice to disobey Allah when he has CLEARLY made zina forbidden.
And to answer all your questions, one can do whatever they want. You cannot take away someone's right just because Allah has forbidden something. Allah has given everyone a free will

And for the sins that affects the other party, can someone rape their wife ? They can, but it is punishable both by the religion and law because it's violating someone else.

Can you have sex with animals. Yes, so many People still do it. But is it correct ? Not at all because animals cannot consent, and sex outside of marriage is haram. And to get married you have to have consent of a person. So can you marry an animal ? Unless an animal starts speaking the language of humans and gives consent, the answer is no.

You are under misconception that ancient people have not practiced the traditional surrogacy. I dont know in what world you are living, but people have had and still practice surrogacy in some way. Husbands do get a second wife to conceive a baby. You are acting like surrogate mothers go through some sort of oppression. If a woman decides to become a surrogate she has done it after thinking it through. In case of surrogacy a baby has two mothers. You are acting like a child is being deprived of mother's love, when the truth is he still has a mother.

[jkhan]

Everything just went above my head. At this point you are asking questions that are plainly illogical. A surrogate baby is going to have a biological father and a biological mother so i have no idea how a baby is going to be deprived of parents. As for the surrogate mother, it depends on the contract form between the parents if she wants to be the part of baby's life or not. There are so many parents who let their children know their surrogate mothers ( if the surrogate mother wants it ). You are bringing your own emotions here. I think we should stop this discussion here. And I agree with brother neptin that Quran was revealed in the context of 7th century when the baby automatically carried the genes of the mother who conceived them.

To answer your question,

Isn't Zina forbidden? So basically how can someone has sex with their boyfriend.
Can one have sex with prostitute ? Yes they definitely can. It's their choice to disobey Allah when he has CLEARLY made zina forbidden.
And to answer all your questions, one can do whatever they want. You cannot take away someone's right just because Allah has forbidden something. Allah has given everyone a free will

And for the sins that affects the other party, can someone rape their wife ? They can, but it is punishable both by the religion and law because it's violating someone else.

Can you have sex with animals. Yes, so many People still do it. But is it correct ? Not at all because animals cannot consent, and sex outside of marriage is haram. And to get married you have to have consent of a person. So can you marry an animal ? Unless an animal starts speaking the language of humans and gives consent, the answer is no.

You are under misconception that ancient people have not practiced the traditional surrogacy. I dont know in what world you are living, but people have had and still practice surrogacy in some way. Husbands do get a second wife to conceive a baby. You are acting like surrogate mothers go through some sort of oppression. If a woman decides to become a surrogate she has done it after thinking it through. In case of surrogacy a baby has two mothers. You are acting like a child is being deprived of mother's love, when the truth is he still has a mother.

I am sorry sanya...
I feel like I am addressing someone like.. It is written in the board "ladies only" but he claims it's my seat coz it is not written on the seat.. So it is for males as well.. That's bizzare.. God has written loads of verses,  find the best for our concerns... Rather than saying literally not Forbidden or literally not allowed...

Now you have come to the exact point... How contradictory your claims now... Sexual pleasure is what those who do zina get... Unless if you forge a different meaning to zina... So if zina God has forbidden why do you support homosex? What they get by having homosex if not sexual pleasure .. So how can they do homosex without marriage.. Anal sex could be the best possible option for homosexual people(males)...
To get sexual pleasure different rules to different people?  How come?

If sex outside marriage is haram as you say,  why homosex is fine and strongly support ,  or do you say God allowed same sex marriage ... Sex outside marriage is not allowed so having sex with animal not allowed but gay and lesbian okay coz they are innocent ... Animal also innocent.  Dude..

I am living in the same period same stationary earth that you live.. Lol.. Ancient people did surrogacy or not they knew well..
But my concern is surrogacy within the norms of Quran..
You say proudly ancient people did surrogacy saying he married another woman.. Marrying another is within the possibility of Quran.. So.. It is not surrogacy.. But genuine marriage.. But QURAN has set limits and conditions when one can marry another woman.. Is not having a child a valid reason to marry another woman while having the first wife.. That's another big subject... Divorce is allowed remember..
I don't care what anceint people did or current people do.  My concern is, is it permissible within the Quran's norms for a believer to practice such and such acts ...

You are skipping my crucial questions.. Either you are prejudiced with you view it neglecting Quranic verses without comparing to conclude.. Or you are turning this into strawman argument..

[Sania Haque]

I am sorry sanya...
I feel like I am addressing someone like.. It is written in the board "ladies only" but he claims it's my seat coz it is not written on the seat.. So it is for males as well.. That's bizzare.. God has written loads of verses,  find the best for our concerns... Rather than saying literally not Forbidden or literally not allowed...

Now you have come to the exact point... How contradictory your claims now... Sexual pleasure is what those who do zina get... Unless if you forge a different meaning to zina... So if zina God has forbidden why do you support homosex? What they get by having homosex if not sexual pleasure .. So how can they do homosex without marriage.. Anal sex could be the best possible option for homosexual people(males)...
To get sexual pleasure different rules to different people?  How come?

If sex outside marriage is haram as you say,  why homosex is fine and strongly support ,  or do you say God allowed same sex marriage ... Sex outside marriage is not allowed so having sex with animal not allowed but gay and lesbian okay coz they are innocent ... Animal also innocent.  Dude..

I am living in the same period same stationary earth that you live.. Lol.. Ancient people did surrogacy or not they knew well..
But my concern is surrogacy within the norms of Quran..
You say proudly ancient people did surrogacy saying he married another woman.. Marrying another is within the possibility of Quran.. So.. It is not surrogacy.. But genuine marriage.. But QURAN has set limits and conditions when one can marry another woman.. Is not having a child a valid reason to marry another woman while having the first wife.. That's another big subject... Divorce is allowed remember..
I don't care what anceint people did or current people do.  My concern is, is it permissible within the Quran's norms for a believer to practice such and such acts ...

You are skipping my crucial questions.. Either you are prejudiced with you view it neglecting Quranic verses without comparing to conclude.. Or you are turning this into strawman argument..

I think I have in my previous post about homosexuality have already mentioned that I believe that God cannot be partial to homosexuals and all the evidences are in support that homosexuality but a very strong and valid argument raised by the opponents of homosexuality-that God didn't establish the marriage between people of same gender- cannot be ignored. I am not in anyway neglecting Quran but you are hellbent on seeing it through your own biased lens. I HAVE NOT SKIPPED ANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS since your questions are just senseless. Neither I have started to claim that my point is correct and that hômosexuality is allowed in Islam. I had posed a question because everyone has a different understanding of Quran and I wanted to see with what valid arguments people come up with. I really donot expect a conservative like you to understand that hômosexuality is not all about sex. People donot have tha ability to love the opposite gender in the same romantic way. I really donot like your tone how you invalidate the feelings and experiences of other people when you donot have to go through what they have to. Your own aversions have made you so blind that you cannot see past it. You compared a surrogate mother to unchaste women, you compared hômosexual people to someone who are just after sex. It is your own traditionalist views that cannot accept that not everyone is out for money and sex. You are the one who is lumping up people in one small box Because if you can resist doing XYZ then why can't others. You are being openly homophobic by comparing a relationship between TWO CONSENTING ADULT to bestiality where the animal cannot even consent. You have given no evidences from Quran, just your own opinions how you find surrogacy repulsive by twisting the meaning of clear verses from Quran which has nothing to do with it. In Quran, it has already been seen that a child can have more than one mother through suckling, does that mean a child is being deprived of a mother if he stays with only one mother ? The biological mother has more rights over the kid. I am done with you. I donot want to have any further discussion on this topic with you because it is leading nowhere. Peace

[Sania Haque]

Peace everyone

Sania I am not addressing  here merely you but everyone who wish to read and may ponder and choose what probably God has in fact ordered..

33:04 " ...... Allah has not made for a man two hearts in his interior. And He has not made your wives whom you declare unlawful your mothers, And he has not made your adopted sons your [true] sons. That is [merely] your saying by your mouths, but Allah says the truth, and He guides to the

way.

33:05 "Call them by [the names of] their fathers; it is more just in the sight of Allah. But if you do not know their fathers - then they are [still] your brothers in religion and those entrusted to you. And there is no blame upon you for that in which you have erred but [only for] what your hearts intended. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful"


Above two verses almost everyone would have read.. In them God clearly talks about Adopted child/ren.. He has ALLOWED/Halal adopting a child or NOT is Upto us to decide using the reasons of the verses.. But in literal verses not listed as ALLOWED.. But we deduce it allowed..

Significant point is once we take it is allowed,  then who are these adopted children.. Are they really our own children?  No.. Strong objection from God.. Coz God refuses to call them even by adopted person as father.. If Known who the father is call them by his name and if not just as brothers (not biological but in religion)...  So if another person give birth to a child that can be only theirs... By any means child belongs to another to the extent of parents of child relationships... That further confirms by below verse..

58:02 "they are not [consequently] their mothers. Their mothers are none but those who gave birth to them"
It's common not specific to one group..

Now if one adopted a child in the form of surrogacy... Child deserves legally a father and mother in his her life.. Leave legal aside, child needs from childhood to call someone as his her father and mother..
But parents will definitely 99% will hide his her true birth mother.. Coz it is an agreement.. Once baby is delivered no more connection..
But God keeps claiming Non is one's mother other than the one who gave birth to a child.. How can one separate a birth mother from child... So..
to practice surrogacy many a Quranic instructions need to be violated obviously as under
1... Making adopted son as son or daughter ... Violation of quran.. Such parent will never call the baby adopted..
2.... Taking as mother who didn't give birth literally..
3... Discarding the one who gave birth who is in fact mother according to Quran ...
4... God says treat your parents... Depriving the child from it.. One cannot have two mothers like one cannot have two hearts

And maybe just go take a look at dictionary and see what surrogacy is . It totally feels like you dont even know what you are talking about and what actually surrogacy is.

[Sania Haque]

Peace,
The birth mother and her mother, etc. are considered mothers theirs.
Regardless of the conception method they become inheritors as well.

Quranically woman who gives birth is the mother, surrogate example:

3:47 قالت said (f) رب lord اني whence يكون being لي to me ولد offspring ولم and not يمسسني touched me بشر mortal قال said كذلك like such الله the god يخلق created ما what يشا willed اذا when of قضي decree امرا directive of فانما so solely يقول speaketh له to it كن be فيكون so being

Sanaa, Dār al-maḫṭūṭāt: DAM 01-29.1
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/47?handschrift=173



Likewise, if the father (i.e. donor) is known they are called thus otherwise brethren and friends.

33:4 ما not جعل made الله the god لرجل for man من of قلبين hearts two في in جوفه interior his وما and not جعل made ازوجكم spouses yours الي those (f/p) تظهرون thou declaring منهن of them امهتكم mothers yours وما and not جعل made ادعيكم adopted sons yours ابنكم sons yours ذلكم such yours قولكم speech yours بافوهكم with mouths yours والله and the god يقول speaketh الحق the truth وهو and he يهدي guided السبيل the pathway
33:5 ادعوهم calls ye them لابيهم to fathers theirs هو it اقسط more just عند with الله the god فان so if لم not تعلموا know ye of اباهم fathers theirs فاخونكم so brethren yours في in الدين the creed وموليكم and friends yours وليس and not is عليكم upon you جنح guilt فيما in what اخطاتم err you به in it ولكن and however ما what تعمدت intended قلوبكم hearts yours وكان and be الله the god غفورا forgiver of رحيما merciful of


The same applies with in vitro fertilization mother gives birth, father/donor if known.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterm_birth
Amillia Taylor is also often cited as the most premature baby. She was born on 24 October 2006 in Miami, Florida, U.S. at 21 weeks and 6 days (153 days) gestation. This report has created some confusion as her gestation was measured from the date of conception (through in vitro fertilization) rather than the date of her mothers last menstrual period, making her appear 2 weeks younger than if gestation was calculated by the more common method.

21 weeks + 6 days = 153 days = 5.28 months pregnancy time
Amillia requires 24.72 (25) months (30 – 5.28 (5)) breastfeeding

Thank you. This was really helpful. ❤️

[jkhan]

Hello folks..
Salam

Since this surrogacy has become part and parcel of most rich people and it has become a common thing in major hospitals I would like to dig deep in this topic...

People have children now in this method... Three people are involved anyhow.. Husband wife and another female who volunteered basically the one who carried the baby for 9 or so months... But she won't play any role after birth...

How a such a child would react to Quran verses if in case his or her parents are believers to some extent... It is not natural and not the way of God literally... I am against it with basic Quranic concept.. But as you know such things are not literally banned in Quran with word haram or equal..
Few children in the class of my friend (teacher)  are children who who are actually born with surrogacy...
Your thoughts are welcome  believers...

[jkhan]

In case if this practice of surrogacy is permitted in anyone's assumption then my question is to them is..  The one who gave birth is allowed for him to marry her according to Quranic principles...  Coz nursing mothers other than biological mother are forbidden to marry.. Since scientifically the one who birth to a surrogate child is biologically not his mother... With all these obvious contradictions hiw one would allow his and her sperm or rather fertilized egg into another woman's womb?
Any idea...