If the Tauwrat, Zabur and Injeel are corrupted, why does the Quran say...

[SeekingThePrayer]

An English translation of the Quran - 5:47 And let the people of the Gospel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.

5:68 Say: "O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord." And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people.

How can we be so ignorant. The Quran told us to let the people of the Injeel judge with it. It told us to uphold the Torah and the Injeel.

How can they be manipulated if God is telling us to uphold them and believe in them and judge with them? Would God ask us to uphold manipulated books and commit shirk, or do you follow people who lie?

More verses on this topic, 2:285, 3:3, 4:136, 5:43, 29:46 etc.

[Abdul-Hadi]

Greetings and Peace, all 

People of the Book is used to refer to other monotheistic systems/religions, that is, other than islam (which is really a deen and not a religion). The Almighty has sent down Guidance to all nations...and many nations have adulterated the Guidance. It should be obvious that we should in no way uphold the additions of people.

Examples follow:

Does the Almighty teach falsehood?

Rabbits chewing cud, bats are birds, etc...

Does the Almighty change Guidance throughout time?

Shellfish are expressly allowed in the Qur'an and expressly disallowed in Old Testament.

The KJV of the Bible even inserts verses, including one referring to a trinity that is not found before.

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/justintaylor/2010/08/23/why-does-the-king-james-bible-have-some-different-verses-than-modern-translations/

I can't uphold what is known to be false, and I can't in good conscience tell anyone else to uphold it either.

I don't deny that the core of the Books is good...but the Books have had additions and bad translations twist them beyond what was sent down. Even the Qur'an has had its share of bad translations. Then hadith and Concordances and canon and Sunnah and Catechisms and traditions all bog the entire thing down even more. It takes some effort to separate what is real from what is fantasy, and to accept it all without critical analysis will essentially mean that garbage in equals garbage out.

Different people have different traditions and different laws. There is no compulsion in the deen, and we are not to dispute over rites. It is entirely okay for other people to judge where they have power according to their traditions, rites, and laws.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.



~Abdul-Hadi

[Abdun Nur]

Because Tauwrat, Zabur and Injeel do not reference religious books, that is the corruption, to claim they do.

[Man of Faith]

Because Tauwrat, Zabur and Injeel do not reference religious books, that is the corruption, to claim they do.

I can agree with that.

[SAJ]

Because Tauwrat, Zabur and Injeel do not reference religious books, that is the corruption, to claim they do.

yes, absolutely. What do you believe Tauwrat, Zabur and Injeel are actually referring to? thank you.

[owlwithbow]

Greetings and Peace, all 

People of the Book is used to refer to other monotheistic systems/religions, that is, other than islam (which is really a deen and not a religion). The Almighty has sent down Guidance to all nations...and many nations have adulterated the Guidance. It should be obvious that we should in no way uphold the additions of people.

Examples follow:

Does the Almighty teach falsehood?

Rabbits chewing cud, bats are birds, etc...

Does the Almighty change Guidance throughout time?

Shellfish are expressly allowed in the Qur'an and expressly disallowed in Old Testament.

The KJV of the Bible even inserts verses, including one referring to a trinity that is not found before.

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/justintaylor/2010/08/23/why-does-the-king-james-bible-have-some-different-verses-than-modern-translations/

I can't uphold what is known to be false, and I can't in good conscience tell anyone else to uphold it either.

I don't deny that the core of the Books is good...but the Books have had additions and bad translations twist them beyond what was sent down. Even the Qur'an has had its share of bad translations. Then hadith and Concordances and canon and Sunnah and Catechisms and traditions all bog the entire thing down even more. It takes some effort to separate what is real from what is fantasy, and to accept it all without critical analysis will essentially mean that garbage in equals garbage out.

Different people have different traditions and different laws. There is no compulsion in the deen, and we are not to dispute over rites. It is entirely okay for other people to judge where they have power according to their traditions, rites, and laws.

May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers.



~Abdul-Hadi

Not all Laws sent down to a nation should also be uphold by other nations. So there a specific Laws for specific people.

You say that the Scriptures we have now contradict themselves? Well, how good is your Hebrew and Greek? Or are you assuming, based upon a translation that you have read?

About translations, they can be very dangerous. Not only people among the Christians play with translations but also among the Arabs different sects are playing with translations. So my point now is: We can't make conclusions based upon a translation only. We need to know the language of the Book and study it for a while and ask God alone for understanding before we might even think about if it's true or false.

Don't be like those people who can't read a single letter of Arabic, but claim that the Quran is false.

[Stardusx]

No wonder this story is this. You do well

[Jafar]

-- wrong topic --

[almarh0m]

Peace

Al Qur'an is definitely not a book of religious instructions but rather a user manual for all human in how to live in/on this earth of the creator. As for all the previous scriptures or user manuals mentioned in the Qur'an, they are all Qur'an in non Arabic languages.

Peace to all

[centi50]

An English translation of the Quran - 5:47 And let the people of the Gospel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.

5:68 Say: "O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord." And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people.

How can we be so ignorant. The Quran told us to let the people of the Injeel judge with it. It told us to uphold the Torah and the Injeel.

How can they be manipulated if God is telling us to uphold them and believe in them and judge with them? Would God ask us to uphold manipulated books and commit shirk, or do you follow people who lie?

More verses on this topic, 2:285, 3:3, 4:136, 5:43, 29:46 etc.

God is Telling the people of the book to uphold the Torah and injeel. I am wondering now if those two the Torah and injeel we (I mean majority of traditional Muslims) say is corrupt why would God still tell the people of the book to uphold it and judge by it.

Please someone explain this to me.

So far I haven't understood the discussion on it

God bless you all

God bless

[si di]

@centi50

can i give my comment on it as i am now studying the story of Noah.By reading the story of Noah in the Bible,i came to the gopher wood and Moses (author?) didn?t know what Wood it is so i was sugesting that it is a tree unknown to eastern People.


And the Bible says that take seven pairs of the animal and backed with the quran i belive that the ark wasn?t so big as a part of the Bible is desribing it because of the 7 pairs and the quran is telling us that it is a localflood not worlwide.



So in my humble opinion they complement eachother

[quincy]

When you see Al-Injeel in Qur'an it doesnt mean that GOD mentions the canonized Gospels in todays Bible. GOD doesnt even mention Christianity, because Christianity main figure is Paul and his version of the "eternal Christ" and not 'Isa bin Maryam or Iesu-Maria, Yahushua, Emmanuel. GOD mentions the Nazarenes and the original aramaic Gospel of the Nazarenes which you can find if you search in the web, but i still think that it was altered by tibetian Monks. Paul violated the Torah to an extent that the "Goyim" now have a completely different religion, some of the Christians even believe that the God of the Old Testament and the God from the New Testament are 2 different deities. The Nazarene way was based on the Torah with addition of a liberal intepration from 'Isa bin Maryam which was called Al-Injeel.

If you read todays Bible on the Basis of the Qur'an, you wont go astray 

[si di]

If you read todays Bible on the Basis of the Qur'an, you wont go astray

thats good view but hardly someone is doing this and i would add to you pleasant sentce vice versa

[Novice]

God is Telling the people of the book to uphold the Torah and injeel. I am wondering now if those two the Torah and injeel we (I mean majority of traditional Muslims) say is corrupt why would God still tell the people of the book to uphold it and judge by it.

Please someone explain this to me.

So far I haven't understood the discussion on it

God bless you all

God bless

Quran is not telling us to let followers of Al-Injeel to decide as per their book but they were to decide as per their book when it was revealed to them. Please read 5:46-47 together to see what they mean.

5:46-47
وَقَفَّيۡنَا عَلَىٰٓ ءَاثَـٰرِهِم بِعِيسَى ٱبۡنِ مَرۡيَمَ مُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوۡرَٮٰةِ‌ۖ وَءَاتَيۡنَـٰهُ ٱلۡإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدً۬ى وَنُورٌ۬ وَمُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوۡرَٮٰةِ وَهُدً۬ى وَمَوۡعِظَةً۬ لِّلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٤٦)

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

وَلۡيَحۡكُمۡ أَهۡلُ ٱلۡإِنجِيلِ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فِيهِ‌ۚ وَمَن لَّمۡ يَحۡڪُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ هُمُ ٱلۡفَـٰسِقُونَ
so that let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah revealed therein. And whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed - then it was those who were the defiantly disobedient.

[huruf]

It must not be forgotten that the Bible is not revelation but a collection of different books which contain different things. There are some that are more unified and there are others that are not. The Gospels ar not the injil but a collection of writings which may have some content handed down from old, but which are not textual renditions of anything that might or might not have been given to 'isaa. They have four authors, and each is different and there are many other gospels that are not included in the Bible.

It is useless to bind the Qur'an to the bible, the Bible is a haphazard collection in which some revelations may have been included, but there is no guarantee to it save what is in agreement with Qur'an and that is why Muhammad is khaam an nabiyiin: what agrees with Qur'an may be taken as coming from God, what does not should not be considered as such, no matter where it is wrritten or collected. What is worth in the bible is in the Qur'an, if it is not in the Qur'an then it is just as any other book or tradition handed down, we should  not take it as sacred or guaranteed. And if we do, it is at our own risk nd certainly it would be absurd to expect other Qur'an believers to take those texts or traditions as obligatory or even helpful. There are many a passage int the Bible which outright heinous.

Salaam

[centi50]

Salam to all
THE JEWS JUDGED BY THE TORAH



005.043
But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?  therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith.

at the point of revelation to Prophet Muhammad, (pbuh) the Torah and particularly the Gospels had already undergone canonisation, the council of Nicaea had already convened in 325 AD under Constantine (nearly 300 years earlier), some Gospels had already been assigned an Apocrypha status and the Jewish Tanakh and Talmud had already been canonized as well as the orthodox Gospels.



Despite this, the Quran's focus still remains on what the Christian and Jewish Arabs, during Muhammad's (pbuh) ministry were reading and believed. These people were part of the primary audience that the Quran was addressing. The immediate focus group was not all of Christendom or the Jewish followers throughout the world in a state of Diaspora, but the immediate contemporaries of the Prophet and what knowledge (scriptures et al) was with them




THE CHRISTIANS JUDGED BY THEIR OWN GOSPELS



005.046

"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him (Arabic: Bayna yadayhi) : We sent him the Gospel: in it was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God."

005.047

"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel (Arabic: Fasiquna)."

  By the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) (Late 6th early 7th century), parts of the Bible had already undergone changes and a creed had developed (The Council of Nicaea congregated in 325AD). The Quran however, is still clearly recognising the text that lay with them.

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

Quran is not telling us to let followers of Al-Injeel to decide as per their book but they were to decide as per their book when it was revealed to them. Please read 5:46-47 together to see what they mean.

5:46-47
وَقَفَّيۡنَا عَلَىٰٓ ءَاثَـٰرِهِم بِعِيسَى ٱبۡنِ مَرۡيَمَ مُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوۡرَٮٰةِ‌ۖ وَءَاتَيۡنَـٰهُ ٱلۡإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدً۬ى وَنُورٌ۬ وَمُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوۡرَٮٰةِ وَهُدً۬ى وَمَوۡعِظَةً۬ لِّلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٤٦)

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

وَلۡيَحۡكُمۡ أَهۡلُ ٱلۡإِنجِيلِ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فِيهِ‌ۚ وَمَن لَّمۡ يَحۡڪُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ هُمُ ٱلۡفَـٰسِقُونَ
so that let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah revealed therein. And whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed - then it was those who were the defiantly disobedient.

Peace Novice,

So you are saying that 5:47-48 is referring to the people of the Injeel during the time of Jesus, and not during the time of Mohammad? Thanks.

[LetTheTruthBeTold]

Because Tauwrat, Zabur and Injeel do not reference religious books, that is the corruption, to claim they do.

Peace Abdun Nur,

Can you please elaborate more on your position, I am intrigued. Thank you.

[John]

1. Where is any copy of this "injeel" now?

2. What evidence is there that there was an injeel different from the Gospels before and/or at the time of Muhammad?

3. How come your god couldn't stop people tampering with and destroying it?

4. How logistically could a man or group of men go all the way around the world, to every nook and cranny, to every church, home, library, king's palace, monastery, university, rich man's house...and steal the "original" 1000's of injeels and replace it with a fake one OR alter its words? How could this occur and no one get caught or there be no one waking up in the morning going, "Hey, who's been altering my injeel?"

I'm still waiting for an honest Muslim (I know, an oxymoron!).

[Jafar]

Here's a 100% honest answer:

The other books need to be INFERIORIZED in order to SUPREMIZE a specific book.

When we put something on a pedestal, thus higher than others, we need to legitimize such act by putting others as lower compared to the thing that we put on a pedestal.

The mechanism on how we 'lowerize' others varied...
Claiming that "others" are corrupted is only one common example among many.
Others are corrupted while "my/our" idol on the pedestal is not thus it is SUPERIOR compared to others.

So does the thing that we put on the pedestal, it varied, it can be:
- My holy book
- My religion
- My god
- My idol
- My ethnicity
- My nationality
- My political party
- My ideology
- My candidate
- My tribe
- My football club
- My Car
- My Product
- My wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend
- My-SELF

And millions of others that we IDENTIFY ourselves with.
In order to SUPERIORIZE the thing we IDENTIFY ourselves with, we need to INFERIORIZE others.

[John]

Here's a 100% honest answer:

The other books need to be INFERIORIZED in order to SUPREMIZE a specific book.

When we put something on a pedestal, thus higher than others, we need to legitimize such act by putting others as lower compared to the thing that we put on a pedestal.

The mechanism on how we 'lowerize' others varied...
Claiming that "others" are corrupted is only one common example among many.
Others are corrupted while "my/our" idol on the pedestal is not thus it is SUPERIOR compared to others.

So does the thing that we put on the pedestal, it varied, it can be:
- My holy book
- My religion
- My god
- My idol
- My ethnicity
- My nationality
- My political party
- My ideology
- My candidate
- My tribe
- My football club
- My Car
- My Product
- My wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend
- My-SELF

And millions of others that we IDENTIFY ourselves with.
In order to SUPERIORIZE the thing we IDENTIFY ourselves with, we need to INFERIORIZE others.

Jafar, honestly, you didn't address my argument. You did a little avoidance.

What you did do was confirm my charge against Muslims, viz., how could it come about that the Bible today is not the real injeel or Taurat and was replaced by a fake or altered one?

So, I will ask the same questions hoping for evidence of how this great undetected conspiracy arose.

1. Where is any copy of this "injeel" now?

2. What evidence is there that there was an injeel different from the Gospels before and/or at the time of Muhammad?

3. How come your god couldn't stop people tampering with and destroying it?

4. How logistically could a man or group of men go all the way around the world, to every nook and cranny, to every church, home, library, king's palace, monastery, university, rich man's house...and steal the "original" 1000's of injeels and replace it with a fake one OR alter its words? How could this occur and no one get caught or there be no one waking up in the morning going, "Hey, who's been altering my injeel?"

I'm still waiting for an honest Muslim (I know, an oxymoron!). Any takers? Anyone brave enough?

[centi50]

Quran is not telling us to let followers of Al-Injeel to decide as per their book but they were to decide as per their book when it was revealed to them. Please read 5:46-47 together to see what they mean.

5:46-47
وَقَفَّيۡنَا عَلَىٰٓ ءَاثَـٰرِهِم بِعِيسَى ٱبۡنِ مَرۡيَمَ مُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوۡرَٮٰةِ‌ۖ وَءَاتَيۡنَـٰهُ ٱلۡإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدً۬ى وَنُورٌ۬ وَمُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوۡرَٮٰةِ وَهُدً۬ى وَمَوۡعِظَةً۬ لِّلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٤٦)

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

وَلۡيَحۡكُمۡ أَهۡلُ ٱلۡإِنجِيلِ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فِيهِ‌ۚ وَمَن لَّمۡ يَحۡڪُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ هُمُ ٱلۡفَـٰسِقُونَ
so that let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah revealed therein. And whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed - then it was those who were the defiantly disobedient.

005.047

"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel



By the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) (Late 6th early 7th century), parts of the Bible had already undergone changes and a creed had developed (The Council of Nicaea congregated in 325AD). The Quran however, is still clearly recognising the text that lay with them.

But then again God says

005.077

"Say: "O people of the Book! do not exceed in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by, who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way."

And again we are told by God to say


005.068

"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"

If there is no truth, why God again tells to tell the people of the book to stand by the Torah and gospel.

This is again during the time of prophet Muhammad

THE JEWS JUDGED BY THE TORAH



005.043
But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?  therein is the (plain) command of


Again we are told among the people of the book there are  those who are good

003:113-114

"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand: They rehearse the verses of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good deeds: They are in the ranks of the righteous"

005.082-83

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers you will find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers you will find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, you will see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses."

007.159

"Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth."



005.066

"If only they had stood firmly by the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelations that were sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil."



003.075

"Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless you constantly stand demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it."



010.094

"If you were in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before you: the Truth has indeed come to you from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt."



Note this is being revealed to the prophet after the scribes and law bearers of the previous scriptures have allowed some textual accretions to be absorbed as part of the text. So therefore, it is clear from this statement that the truth still existed amongst them and there were knowledgeable folk amongst the people of the book.

God bless all

[shakeel]

I've always had an issue with this too. Unless the Quran is talking about the gospel of Thomas or other Apocrypha as being the real injeel.
Or maybe the so called Q gospel. who knows