Seeking Clarity on the Quran's Preservation Over Centuries

[Fusion]

A friend recently shared their views on the Qur'an and its compilation, sparking a curiosity in me that I'd like to discuss here. They suggested that while the original divine revelations to Prophet Muhammad were the pure truth, the text might have been subject to tampering and distortion after his death. This brings up questions about the authenticity of the current Qur'an, especially considering that the compilation we have today was overseen by the third Caliph, Uthman ibn Affan, decades after the Prophet's death. Given the historical context and the possibility of alterations by early Islamic leaders, whom some historical accounts suggest had varying degrees of sincerity and faithfulness, how can we reconcile these concerns with our faith in the Qur'an's authenticity?

Moreover Quranists, who focus solely on the Qur'an and largely disregard the Hadith and Sunnah that detail events after the Prophet's death and the actions of the caliphs, face a particular conundrum. If the Qur'an's compilation is historically linked to these figures and events that Quranists do not necessarily hold in the same regard as the Qur'an itself, how does this affect their acceptance of the Qur'an as we know it today? Else how did we end up with the copy of Quran we have today???

Additionally, they raised an intriguing point about Qur'an 15:9, 56:77-80, and 85:21-22, suggesting these verses refer to the "Preserved Tablet" (Lawh Mahfouz) and the reminder (dhikr), not necessarily to the physical copy of the Qur'an we hold today. This perspective hints at a distinction between the eternal, unaltered divine message and the physical text compiled by humans. They argue this could be seen as circular reasoning—a logical fallacy where the conclusion is included in the premise—especially if one assumes that the divine promise of protection explicitly applies to the physical Qur'an.

This friend also suggests that by accepting the current text without question, we might inadvertently commit shirk by placing blind faith in a potentially altered text. How do you view the issues of compilation, historical authenticity, and the logical structure of divine protection promises? How can we, especially Quranists who adhere strictly to the Qur'an, be certain of the text's purity and divine origin in light of these considerations? I'm eager to hear your thoughts and insights on these matters, given the deep respect and love we all hold for the Qur'an as the cornerstone of our faith.

Some of the verses mentioned in the Quran is talking about
[Quran 15:9] Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.
[Quran 56:77-80] This is an honorable Quran. In a protected book. None can grasp it except the sincere. A revelation from the Lord of the universe.
[Quran 85:21-22] Indeed, it is a glorious Quran. In a preserved master tablet.


Note: I have already viewed the relevant thread below
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8314.msg22280#msg22280

[Layth]

Salam Fusion.

That is an excellent, though misleading question.

This argument has been recently formed (a couple of years now) by those who have given up defending the sunnah through the usual "obey God and obey and the messneger" as well as "how do you pray" arguments since those have both been completely refuted.

The question though is very loaded since they are willing now to attack the authenticity of the Quran itself to protect their precious idol (the sunna). They have also gone beyond "how can you trust the Quran if it was preserved by the same narrators of Hadith" with the recent "there is not one Quran - so, using the Quran alone, show us which is the real version!".

As I said - loaded questions.

Firsly, We accept the Quran as being the word of God by what it says and how it says it (that is also how the original recipients accepted it, for it spoke to their hearts and minds 4:82)

Secondly, we believe the Quran was written by the hands of the prohet himself (see 29:48, 85:22)

Thirdly, We believe the Qur'an was arranged by the Prophet through divine inspiration and that this arrangemnt is very deliberate as it scatters the topics throughout the Book - making it difficult to tamper with (see 16:101-102)

Now, if you accept the 3 points above, you will see that the argument that "people" participated in the Qur'an's preservation has no validity. However, what people can claim is that there were "scribes" that were copying the text from the original and that is how the Qur'an spread wide and far.

Did these scribes make errors? Yes, absolutely. That is why we have 7 or 14 versions of the Qur'an that have scribal differences (the "qiraat"). The way the sunnis deal with the Qiraat is to simply say "they are all from God" which is absolutely absurd and lazy thinking (did God say Rome "won" or was "defeated" in 33:2 - for both cannot be correct?). What we can say is that the Qur'an can be corrected by "context" and if the verse supports one over the other, then that is what we accept (e.g. Rome won, then was defeated).

I would also point out that some of our brothers and sisters accept that "19" proves the authenticity and preservation of the text - though I would say that argument works well for all the initialled suras, but not the rest.

In conclusion, people copying a text as it was given to them gives then no authority whatsoever in that text nor in its content (its like giving the printers of Harry Potter authority over its content!).

[Fusion]

Thank you for your insightful contribution. I want to ensure I've understood correctly:
Are you saying the Qur'an was compiled into its written form by the Prophet Muhammad during his lifetime, with this assertion based directly on Quranic verses which you have quoted, rather than historical narratives? Is this accurate?

Just to clarify, the question was posed by someone who follows Quran, not Sunni Islam.

While your response compellingly argues for divine protection and the Prophet Muhammad's direct role in inscribing the Qur'an, it lightly touches upon the historical processes involved in its preservation by the early Muslim community. This process, marked by a concerted effort to preserve the Qur'an accurately, underscores human involvement in safeguarding its textual integrity alongside divine oversight.

[Layth]

Salam Fusion.

Yes, that is correct. The Qur'an was written and later arranged by the Prophet himslef. The counter argument used to attempt to discredit the verses I mentioned are that the Prophet was "ummy" and therefore could not have written the text. This is a false interpretation as the word "ummy" is mostly used in opposition to those who have received the scripture (ahlul kitaab WAL umiyeen) - the word means "gentile" (one who did not receive any previous scripture). The One who sent to the "gentiles/umiyeen" a messenger from amongst them (62:2) - obviously the Prophet was not sent to an illeterate people, but people who never knew a scripture.

For the origin of the question, it started from the Sunnis and unfortunately some brothers and sisters have been repeating it as it caused them confusion.

Finally, I did not use divine protection as an argument (I said that could be said by those who accept code-19) - I am merely saying that the act of "copying" a work does not give the copier any authority or legitimacy (which is the subtle claim being alluded to by this argument). All our religious texts are in "copy" form and, unless we can find the original tablets of Moses, this will be the case until the end of time. As for the Qur'an, if we accept that it was in written form during the life of the Prophet, then this foundation discredits those that have falsly made it into a group effort (scribes wrote it after him, the sahaba gathered it, then they arranged it, then they burned the copies to cannonize the book into one book- what rubnish!).

[jkhan]

A friend recently shared their views on the Qur'an and its compilation, sparking a curiosity in me that I'd like to discuss here. They suggested that while the original divine revelations to Prophet Muhammad were the pure truth, the text might have been subject to tampering and distortion after his death. This brings up questions about the authenticity of the current Qur'an, especially considering that the compilation we have today was overseen by the third Caliph, Uthman ibn Affan, decades after the Prophet's death. Given the historical context and the possibility of alterations by early Islamic leaders, whom some historical accounts suggest had varying degrees of sincerity and faithfulness, how can we reconcile these concerns with our faith in the Qur'an's authenticity?

Moreover Quranists, who focus solely on the Qur'an and largely disregard the Hadith and Sunnah that detail events after the Prophet's death and the actions of the caliphs, face a particular conundrum. If the Qur'an's compilation is historically linked to these figures and events that Quranists do not necessarily hold in the same regard as the Qur'an itself, how does this affect their acceptance of the Qur'an as we know it today? Else how did we end up with the copy of Quran we have today???

Additionally, they raised an intriguing point about Qur'an 15:9, 56:77-80, and 85:21-22, suggesting these verses refer to the "Preserved Tablet" (Lawh Mahfouz) and the reminder (dhikr), not necessarily to the physical copy of the Qur'an we hold today. This perspective hints at a distinction between the eternal, unaltered divine message and the physical text compiled by humans. They argue this could be seen as circular reasoning—a logical fallacy where the conclusion is included in the premise—especially if one assumes that the divine promise of protection explicitly applies to the physical Qur'an.

This friend also suggests that by accepting the current text without question, we might inadvertently commit shirk by placing blind faith in a potentially altered text. How do you view the issues of compilation, historical authenticity, and the logical structure of divine protection promises? How can we, especially Quranists who adhere strictly to the Qur'an, be certain of the text's purity and divine origin in light of these considerations? I'm eager to hear your thoughts and insights on these matters, given the deep respect and love we all hold for the Qur'an as the cornerstone of our faith.

Some of the verses mentioned in the Quran is talking about
[Quran 15:9] Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.
[Quran 56:77-80] This is an honorable Quran. In a protected book. None can grasp it except the sincere. A revelation from the Lord of the universe.
[Quran 85:21-22] Indeed, it is a glorious Quran. In a preserved master tablet.


Note: I have already viewed the relevant thread below
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8314.msg22280#msg22280

Peace Fusion..

It seems like you are still in same old confusion you were in few years back and seems it is hard for you to get out of it...
Something is concealed in you that you are not being able to get rid of and not even aware of what it is .. Just find that out and figure out what causes it.. Layth is right it is so misleading.. .

Well.  Let me get back to your concern..  How do you believe that God or your Creator does exist...?  Are you convinced in that, if so how?  If your answer within yourself is YES.. then hunt for the truth... What Truth?  Yes.. God's  path...  Has God communicated literally ? Does He want us to follow a path?  What is it?
Just believing in the existence of God won't make any sense if God has nothing to do with everyone's life style they have chosen be it GOOD or EVIL?  Isn't it? God exists but not ever communicated with humam being means, God doesn't care at all of His creations... Would that be possible or make sense after creating all these? 

So ...if you believe that God does exist then there must be God's communication through His messengers to herald His message... Why God communicated? So.. Compare God's creations and His might and find whether these revelations befit for such a powerful Creator or are these mere revelations or rather inventions of human claimed to be from God.. Find it out as you found out that God exists..

I feel really pity for you in an angle in which I sense... It's not a question of a true believer..

Ask your self.. Would you ever have believed in the revelation, had you happened to be lived with Messenger of Quran?  How would you judge the Messenger to be truthful while he had no so called miracles save the verses which he revealed intermittently..  It would have been impossible for you in my assumption if it is hard for you to believe in this Quran with all researches possible now.. How would one believe in another human being just cuz he claims these are verses from the Creator sent down from God's Malak.. So.. There is a faith issue which is not convinced in you unfortunately in my SPECULATION..
It's not about the authenticity of the book or how it reached to us which is significant but what it has written and how we feel with such verses while we already convinced in the existence of God.. Do we perceive that it is from God or from human?  If we feel the revelations are from human then either the revelations are not from the Creator or the Creator has not opened our hearts to His communication provided that we not approached His book with confidence but with doubt..
Why we need to worry about different versions of Quran while words are all same?  If there are various versions of QURANs where words are not identical or verses missing or  verses added then it's a huge issue for a person to choose but still Allah willing believers will approach God's message in the sane way they accepted GOd in life in the first place.. .. None can approach save true believers.. Even if the Quran you and me reading is intact none can touch its true meaning save believers who are guided by Allah.. So it's a connection.. Author has written a book and taken the responsibility to ensure it reaches certain readers who choose by Himself.. Not every reader..

So.. Dear.. Leave this issue which is in your heart if possible and Allah willing.. In my perception it's a mammoth challenge for you to overcome it.. Cuz None doubt the Quran save disbelievers..

29:47 "...... And none reject Our verses except the disbelievers."

Your friend is certainly not convinced neither you to raise this question..
It's like.. If I present an analogy.. One lives as husband and wife and with a certain test they disclose all what was in their heart so both get seperated...  Similarly one can somehow may attached to the book of Quran but if it is not real it can get separated at any given point of time cuz of the fact that,  the doubt or concern was always in him or her but for whatever reasons continued with it but not with extreme willingness..

Sorry for late entry to this topic due to various personal stress these days.. But hope topic is still hot..

[Euphoric]

This brings up questions about the authenticity of the current Qur'an, especially considering that the compilation we have today was overseen by the third Caliph, Uthman ibn Affan, decades after the Prophet's death. Given the historical context and the possibility of alterations by early Islamic leaders, whom some historical accounts suggest had varying degrees of sincerity and faithfulness, how can we reconcile these concerns with our faith in the Qur'an's authenticity?

Here is my understanding:

No one can avoid blind faith in anything.

The Quran today being exactly the same as the one the Messenger brought is faith based, and cannot be backed by any textual and empirical evidence.

Has the Quran been preserved? That is a matter of what "preservation" means to you and how you will prove it.

[Fusion]

Here is my understanding:

No one can avoid blind faith in anything.

The Quran today being exactly the same as the one the Messenger brought is faith based, and cannot be backed by any textual and empirical evidence.

Has the Quran been preserved? That is a matter of what "preservation" means to you and how you will prove it.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I appreciate how you've articulated your thoughts in a manner that resonates with my own views, rather than using strong, imposing statements....
It's refreshing to engage in a discussion where ideas are expressed thoughtfully without personal attacks. I agree that faith plays a significant role in our interpretations and beliefs, and it's important to recognize that as we continue to discuss and learn from each other in this forum.

[good logic]

what is a scripture?
Is Qoran a scripture? Why?
  Trying to answer these two questions leads one to check out the contents and then see for themselves.

So even if one cannot go back to the time of the prophet or any time after that, they look at what they have now. Any Arabic copy of Qoran available today will do.
So what does the content of Qoran tell the student of Qoran now?

Here is some small examples of the letters, words and verses composition of some of the verses of this Qoran:
Pay attention to the words,subject and style and compare with human authors :

وَذَرِ الَّذينَ اتَّخَذوا دينَهُم لَعِبًا وَلَهوًا وَغَرَّتهُمُ الحَيوٰةُ الدُّنيا وَذَكِّر بِهِ أَن تُبسَلَ نَفسٌ بِما كَسَبَت لَيسَ لَها مِن دونِ اللَّهِ وَلِىٌّ وَلا شَفيعٌ وَإِن تَعدِل كُلَّ عَدلٍ لا يُؤخَذ مِنها أُولٰئِكَ الَّذينَ أُبسِلوا بِما كَسَبوا لَهُم شَرابٌ مِن حَميمٍ وَعَذابٌ أَليمٌ بِما كانوا يَكفُرونَ

قُل أَنَدعوا مِن دونِ اللَّهِ ما لا يَنفَعُنا وَلا يَضُرُّنا وَنُرَدُّ عَلىٰ أَعقابِنا بَعدَ إِذ هَدىٰنَا اللَّهُ كَالَّذِى استَهوَتهُ الشَّيٰطينُ فِى الأَرضِ حَيرانَ لَهُ أَصحٰبٌ يَدعونَهُ إِلَى الهُدَى ائتِنا قُل إِنَّ هُدَى اللَّهِ هُوَ الهُدىٰ وَأُمِرنا لِنُسلِمَ لِرَبِّ العٰلَمينَ

وَأَن أَقيمُوا الصَّلوٰةَ وَاتَّقوهُ وَهُوَ الَّذى إِلَيهِ تُحشَرونَ

وَهُوَ الَّذى خَلَقَ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالأَرضَ بِالحَقِّ وَيَومَ يَقولُ كُن فَيَكونُ قَولُهُ الحَقُّ وَلَهُ المُلكُ يَومَ يُنفَخُ فِى الصّورِ عٰلِمُ الغَيبِ وَالشَّهٰدَةِ وَهُوَ الحَكيمُ الخَبيرُ
...
One can ignore the interpretation of the above verses used below and interpret/translate  themselves :

You shall disregard those who take their religion in vain, as if it is a social function, and are totally absorbed in this worldly life. Remind with this (Qoran), lest a soul may suffer the consequences of its evil earnings. It has none beside God as a Lord and Master, nor an intercessor. If it could offer any kind of ransom, it would not be accepted. They suffer the consequences of the evil works they earn; they have incurred  a painful retribution because of their disbelief.

Say, "Shall we implore, beside God, what possesses no power to benefit us or hurt us, and turn back on our heels after God has guided us? In that case, we would join those possessed by the devils, and rendered utterly confused, while their friends try to save them: `Stay with us on the right path.' " Say, "God's guidance is the right guidance. We are commanded to submit to the Lord of the universe.

"And to observe The Salat and to reverence Him - He is the One before whom you will be summoned (for the reckoning)."

He is the One who created the heavens and the earth, truthfully. Whenever He says, "Be," it is. His word is the absolute truth. All sovereignty belongs to Him the day the horn is blown. Knower of all secrets and declarations, He is the Most Wise, the Cognizant.

And these verses:

وَما قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدرِهِ إِذ قالوا ما أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلىٰ بَشَرٍ مِن شَىءٍ قُل مَن أَنزَلَ الكِتٰبَ الَّذى جاءَ بِهِ موسىٰ نورًا وَهُدًى لِلنّاسِ تَجعَلونَهُ قَراطيسَ تُبدونَها وَتُخفونَ كَثيرًا وَعُلِّمتُم ما لَم تَعلَموا أَنتُم وَلا ءاباؤُكُم قُلِ اللَّهُ ثُمَّ ذَرهُم فى خَوضِهِم يَلعَبونَ
.
وَهٰذا كِتٰبٌ أَنزَلنٰهُ مُبارَكٌ مُصَدِّقُ الَّذى بَينَ يَدَيهِ وَلِتُنذِرَ أُمَّ القُرىٰ وَمَن حَولَها وَالَّذينَ يُؤمِنونَ بِالـٔاخِرَةِ يُؤمِنونَ بِهِ وَهُم عَلىٰ صَلاتِهِم يُحافِظونَ

وَمَن أَظلَمُ مِمَّنِ افتَرىٰ عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا أَو قالَ أوحِىَ إِلَىَّ وَلَم يوحَ إِلَيهِ شَىءٌ وَمَن قالَ سَأُنزِلُ مِثلَ ما أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلَو تَرىٰ إِذِ الظّٰلِمونَ فى غَمَرٰتِ المَوتِ وَالمَلٰئِكَةُ باسِطوا أَيديهِم أَخرِجوا أَنفُسَكُمُ اليَومَ تُجزَونَ عَذابَ الهونِ بِما كُنتُم تَقولونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ غَيرَ الحَقِّ وَكُنتُم عَن ءايٰتِهِ تَستَكبِرونَ

وَلَقَد جِئتُمونا فُرٰدىٰ كَما خَلَقنٰكُم أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَتَرَكتُم ما خَوَّلنٰكُم وَراءَ ظُهورِكُم وَما نَرىٰ مَعَكُم شُفَعاءَكُمُ الَّذينَ زَعَمتُم أَنَّهُم فيكُم شُرَكٰؤُا۟ لَقَد تَقَطَّعَ بَينَكُم وَضَلَّ عَنكُم ما كُنتُم تَزعُمونَ

إِنَّ اللَّهَ فالِقُ الحَبِّ وَالنَّوىٰ يُخرِجُ الحَىَّ مِنَ المَيِّتِ وَمُخرِجُ المَيِّتِ مِنَ الحَىِّ ذٰلِكُمُ اللَّهُ فَأَنّىٰ تُؤفَكونَ

فالِقُ الإِصباحِ وَجَعَلَ الَّيلَ سَكَنًا وَالشَّمسَ وَالقَمَرَ حُسبانًا ذٰلِكَ تَقديرُ العَزيزِ العَليمِ

وَهُوَ الَّذى جَعَلَ لَكُمُ النُّجومَ لِتَهتَدوا بِها فى ظُلُمٰتِ البَرِّ وَالبَحرِ قَد فَصَّلنَا الـٔايٰتِ لِقَومٍ يَعلَمونَ

وَهُوَ الَّذى أَنشَأَكُم مِن نَفسٍ وٰحِدَةٍ فَمُستَقَرٌّ وَمُستَودَعٌ قَد فَصَّلنَا الـٔايٰتِ لِقَومٍ يَفقَهونَ

وَهُوَ الَّذى أَنزَلَ مِنَ السَّماءِ ماءً فَأَخرَجنا بِهِ نَباتَ كُلِّ شَىءٍ فَأَخرَجنا مِنهُ خَضِرًا نُخرِجُ مِنهُ حَبًّا مُتَراكِبًا وَمِنَ النَّخلِ مِن طَلعِها قِنوانٌ دانِيَةٌ وَجَنّٰتٍ مِن أَعنابٍ وَالزَّيتونَ وَالرُّمّانَ مُشتَبِهًا وَغَيرَ مُتَشٰبِهٍ انظُروا إِلىٰ ثَمَرِهِ إِذا أَثمَرَ وَيَنعِهِ إِنَّ فى ذٰلِكُم لَـٔايٰتٍ لِقَومٍ يُؤمِنونَ

Again this interpretation can be ignored and do your own:

They never valued God as He should be valued. Thus, they said, "God does not reveal anything to any human being." Say, "Who then revealed the scripture that Moses brought, with light and guidance for the people?" You put it down on paper to proclaim it, while concealing a lot of it. You were taught what you never knew - you and your parents. Say, "God (is the One who revealed it)," then leave them in their heedlessness, playing.

This too is a blessed scripture that we have revealed, confirming the previous scriptures, that you may warn the most important community* and all those around it. Those who believe in the Hereafter will believe in this (scripture), and will observe the Salat

Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies and attributes them to God, or says, "I have received divine inspiration," when no such inspiration was given to him, or says, "I can write the same as God's revelations?" If only you could see the transgressors at the time of death! The angels extend their hands to them, saying, "Let go of your souls. Today, you have incurred a shameful retribution for saying about God other than the truth, and for being too arrogant to accept His revelations.

"You have come back to us as individuals, just as we created you the first time, and you have left behind what we provided for you. We do not see with you the intercessors that you idolized and claimed that they will help you. All ties among you have been severed; the idols you set up have abandoned you."

God is the One who causes the grains and the seeds to crack and germinate. He produces the living from the dead, and the dead from the living. Such is God; how could you deviate!

At the crack of dawn, He causes the morning to emerge. He made the night still, and He rendered the sun and the moon to serve as calculation devices. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.

And He is the One who made the stars to guide you during the darkness, on land and on sea. We thus clarify the revelations for people who know.

He initiated you from one person, and decided your path, as well as your final destiny. We thus clarify the revelations for people who understand.

He is the One who sends down from the sky water, whereby we produce all kinds of plants. We produce from the green material multitudes of complex grains, palm trees with hanging clusters, and gardens of grapes, olives and pomegranate; fruits that are similar, yet dissimilar. Note their fruits as they grow and ripen. These are signs for people who believe.

Yes ,  a very simple logic is to check and study the contents of a claimed scripture . Then you should decide for yourself if the scripture is really from GOD or not.

SO is Qoran a scripture from GOD? why or why not? You decide for yourself by doing your own check /study.
Yes even if others say it is and preserved or it is not.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

[hawk99]

A friend recently shared their views on the Qur'an and its compilation, sparking a curiosity in me that I'd like to discuss here. They suggested that while the original divine revelations to Prophet Muhammad were the pure truth, the text might have been subject to tampering and distortion after his death. This brings up questions about the authenticity of the current Qur'an, especially considering that the compilation we have today was overseen by the third Caliph, Uthman ibn Affan, decades after the Prophet's death. Given the historical context and the possibility of alterations by early Islamic leaders, whom some historical accounts suggest had varying degrees of sincerity and faithfulness, how can we reconcile these concerns with our faith in the Qur'an's authenticity?

Peace Fusion,

    The Quran is a personal guide to live a righteous life.  A teaching to direct us to peace.
It covers all aspects of our existence.  We learn how to live and engage with one another.
For those who say something is missing my question is "what are they looking for"?  Yes we must be
careful of the different translations and learn the true meanings of its ayats because different
a translators may have a bias or an agenda.  But as a whole the book can put one the path
intended.

Yes,  [Quran 56:77-80] This is an honorable Quran. In a protected book. None can grasp it except the sincere. A revelation from the Lord of the universe.


God bless


                                     

[Fusion]

Peace Fusion,

God bless


                                     

That is precisely my point; it is not about something missing in the book. Rather, it's about how some people are hell-bent on imposing their own understanding of the verses on others, insisting that only their interpretation is correct. They debate their logic until they 'win' the argument. I believe that if one understands the Quran to the best of their ability, with a humble heart, the Lord will guide them. And if someone gets something wrong, it's not the end of the world, despite how some advocates might make it seem.


"O Messenger of Allah! It is a great Mercy of God that you are gentle and kind towards them; for, had you been harsh and hard-hearted, they would all have broken away from you."