Peace
Quote from: Freemind0 on September 03, 2009, 04:06:57 AM
1- How can Muhammad�s character be irrelevant to his claim? How can we be sure that he was not a liar? What if he lied for the same reason Jim Jones and thousands of other charlatan, impostor cult leaders lie manipulate and control the foolhardy?
As Wakas has already pointed out, your above arguements are fallacious.
I just wanted to add:
68:1 N, the pen, and what they write.
68:2 You are not, by the blessing of your Lord, crazy.
68:3 You will have a reward that is well deserved.
68:4 You are blessed with a great moral character.
Quote from: Freemind0 on September 03, 2009, 04:06:57 AM
2- Muhammad made so many bogus claims about being the best of the creation, and a perfect example to follow. How can we verify these self adulating claims?
Good question. Hadiths are not reliable.
Quote from: Freemind0 on September 03, 2009, 04:06:57 AM
And how are we supposed to follow his examples as Allah asked us to do in the Quran if we are not allowed to read his history or believe it?
It's IN (yes IN) the Quran. There is an article on free-minds that deals with this. I cant find it right now, sry.
Quote from: Freemind0 on September 03, 2009, 04:06:57 AM
3- I asked you to explain the meaning of Sura 111 and Sura 38:41-44 without referring to hadith, tafseer and Sira, by merely trying to decipher their meanings from the Quran. Can you do that? These are just two examples. Most of the Quran is incomprehensible without hadith and tafseer and I will keep pointing them out as we touch them.
Edip-Layth - End Note 1 (111:1)
The expression Abu Lahab means the "father of flame" or provocateur. Traditional commentaries tie this description to Muhammad's uncle Abd al-Uzza bin Ab al-Muttalib. Even if the first person who was implied by this verse were Muhammad's uncle, the chapter by using a metaphor rather than a proper name, refers to all despots and their allies who oppress people because of their ideas and convictions. In this chapter, the wife has two different roles: either she is supplying more fuel for her husband in support of his bigoted campaign against muslims, or she is supplying fuel for her husband who is burning himself with flames of hatred. Some of the followers of the hadith and sunna, who consider the name to be only a proper name, present this chapter as evidence for the divinity of the Quran, by arguing that Abu Lahab could have falsified the Quran simply by professing Islam after hearing these verses about him. This assertion is the product of poor thinking. If the Quran was the product of Muhammad, Muhammad would never accept his conversion to Islam, and would continue condemning him with additional accusations, such as, him being a lying hypocrite. And Muhammad would be right (not necessarily in his claim of the origin of the Quran) regarding Abu Lahab, since he could never honestly acknowledge the truthfulness of a book condemning him to be a misguided loser; his conversion would create a contradiction. In other words, such a claim cannot be falsified, and thus cannot be used as an example of prophecies.
Quote from: Freemind0 on September 03, 2009, 04:06:57 AM
4- We also talked about the Quran's claim that God transformed the Jews into apes and swine (5:60) and said �Be ye apes� (2:65, 7:166). These are not metaphors. No scholar has understood them as metaphors because the texts make it clear that they are not metaphors.
So you're the one who decides what is to be taken metaphorically and what is to be taken literally?
Quote from: Freemind0 on September 03, 2009, 04:06:57 AM
5- You claimed Muhammad wrote the Quran with his own hand. I asked how do you know that. Where is your source? Why should we believe you when he himself claimed to be illiterate and unable to read. 7:157 , 6:22
It's God who claims this:
25:5 Waqaloo asateeru al-awwaleenaiktatabaha fahiya tumla AAalayhi bukratan waaseelan
25:5 They said, "Mythologies of the ancient people; he wrote them down while they were being dictated to him morning and evening."
Quote from: Freemind0 on September 03, 2009, 04:06:57 AM
6- You made the claim that ummi does not mean illiterate but gentile. I quoted the verse 2:78 were Muhammad alludes to the Jews and calls them ummayoon ْ أُمِّيُّونَ because they can�t read their book. What is your response?
2:76 When they come across those who acknowledge, they say, "We acknowledge!", and when they are alone with each other they say, "Why do you inform them about what God has said to us? Then, they would use it in an argument against us at your Lord. Do you not reason?"
2:77 Do they not know that God knows what they conceal and what they declare?
2:78 Amongst them are Gentiles who do not know the book except by hearsay, and they only conjecture.
2:79 So woe to those who write the book with their hands then say, "This is from God," so that they can seek a cheap gain! Woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they have gained.
2:80 They said, "The fire will not touch us except for a few number of days." Say, "Have you taken a pledge with God? If so, then God will not break His pledge. Or do you say about God what you do not know?"
2:81 Indeed, whoever gains a bad deed and his mistakes surround him; those are the people of the fire, there they abide eternally.
Is this enough, or do you need further elaboration?
Quote from: Freemind0 on September 03, 2009, 04:06:57 AM
7- We talked about sura 33 and I said this sura is not self explanatory. I asked you to tell us who are the �confederates� mentioned in verse 20 and from where they did not withdraw. Explain that without any reference to hadith or tafseer.
33:20 They thought that the opponents had not yet mobilized. If the opponents do appear, they wish that they were out in the desert, seeking out news for you. Even if they were among you, they would not have fought except very little.
Muhammad's Exemplary Courage in the Battlefield
33:21 Indeed, in the messenger of God a good example has been set for he who seeks God and the Last day and thinks constantly about God.
33:22 When those who acknowledge saw the opponents, they said, "This is what God and His messenger have promised us, and God and His messenger are truthful." This only increased their faith and their peacefully surrender.
33:23 From among those who acknowledge are men who fulfilled their pledge to God. Thus, some of them died, while some are still waiting; but they never altered in the least.
33:24 That God may recompense the truthful for their truthfulness, and punish the hypocrites if He so wills, or accepts their repentance. God is Forgiver, Compassionate.
Edip-Layth - End Note 5 (33:21)
Those who idolized Muhammad have taken the verse out of its context and have abused it to justify volumes of stories presented as Muhammad's actions (sunna). The verse refers to Muhammad's bravery and constant remembrance of God during the war. The Quran refers to some other good leadership qualities of Muhammad (3:121, 159; 9:40) as well as some of his weaknesses (33:37; 80:1-16). Those who deserted the Quran (25:30), instead of following the progressive teaching of the Quran, extended this good example to irrelevant individual or cultural behavior. They introduced numerous rules to be mimicked, such as Muhammad's clothing, diet, toothbrush, beard, walk, sleep, and even urination. They sanctified growing beards and wearing turbans, ignoring the fact that the Meccan idol worshipers, such as Abu Jahl and Walid b. Mugiyra also had long beards and wore turbans. They adopted a whole concoction of medieval Arabic, Jewish and Byzantine cultures as God's religion. They regressed to monkeys like previous generations (2:65; 5:60; 7:166). What is worse, the actions and words ascribed to prophet Muhammad have depicted him with a character that is far from exemplary. The Hadith books portray the prophet as a phantasmagoric character with multiple personalities. That character is more fictitious than mythological gods and goddesses, such as Hermes, Pan, Poseidon and Aphrodite. He is a pendulous character, both bouncing up to deity, and down to the lowest degree. He is both wise and a moron. He is sometimes more merciful than God and sometimes a cruel torturer. He is both perfect and criminal, humble and arrogant, chaste and a sex maniac, trustworthy and a cheater, illiterate and an educator, rich and poor, a nepotistic and a democratic leader, caring and a male chauvinist, a believer and a disbeliever, prohibiting Hadith and promoting Hadith. You can find numerous conflicting personalities presented as an exemplary figure. Choose whichever you like. This peculiar aspect of Hadith collection is well-described by the prophetic verses of the Quran (68:35-38). Furthermore, a similar statement is made about Abraham: "A good example has been set for you by Abraham and those with him" (60:4, 6). If verse 33:21 requires Muhammad's hadith, then why would the verses 60:4,6 not also require Abraham's hadith? Which books narrate hadiths from Abraham? Obviously, the only reliable source for both examples is the Book of God, which narrates the relevant exemplary actions. It also warns us not to repeat the mistakes committed by Muhammad (33:37; 80: 1- 10). See 3:18; 3:159; 60:4. 42:21.
17:41 We have cited in this Quran (all kinds of examples), that they may take heed. But it only augments their aversion.6:38 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned.25:30 The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."
