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Who made God?

Started by nsws1988, May 18, 2009, 04:18:06 PM

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Diem

Quote from: David_K on May 19, 2009, 02:50:09 PM

Did you know that Time and clock is man-made concepts. The clock and time was created by man. And today through modern science we now know that time is relative. And that the universal clock is wrong. For instance if you live in another planet you will get older faster or more slow because time is different there. you will for instance become an old lady in only the age of 30. Time goes faster or slower in that planet. It may go faster or slower than the planet earth. God is not bound by time. he can exist outside of time since he created day and night etc. If a human being create a computer he can exist oustide that computer. God can exist outside of time since he created time, which means that since he is not controlled by the laws of time, he is therefore eternal.


Peace brother.

Time is not a man made concept time is an entity, a whole dimension belongs to time. Time originated from singularity.

You should really check out http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/ , its a documentary based off of a book called the Elegant Universe. It is about 3 hours long.
I humbly suggest you read up on quantum physics/special relativity because saying this on any other (intelligent) forum would have gotten you ridiculed, just helping out ;)  :!
Each of us must light our own torch of knowledge. Verify what you read and discover the truth for yourself. (17:36; 10:100; 39:17-18; 41:53; 42:21; 6:114-116; 10:36; 12:111; 20:114; 21:7; 35:28; 38:29).

?? this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom ? and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.?
-Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg Address

almarh0m

Quote from: Diem on May 30, 2009, 09:55:14 AM
Peace brother.

Time is not a man made concept time is an entity, a whole dimension belongs to time. Time originated from singularity.

You should really check out http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/ , its a documentary based off of a book called the Elegant Universe. It is about 3 hours long.
I humbly suggest you read up on quantum physics/special relativity because saying this on any other (intelligent) forum would have gotten you ridiculed, just helping out ;)  :!

How many "dimensions' are there in the universe ? What about "space" is it not a dimension ?
"He who Created me, it is He who Guides me"

Alen

Quote from: nsws1988 on May 18, 2009, 04:18:06 PM
I see the proofs of God everwhere I look and in the miracle of the Quran.
But there there are still parts of me questioning God's existence no matter how much I believe in Him. I just can't help it.
If God created us, then who created God?
Did God just sit there on His own doing nothing in silence then decided to create us?
Who made God as God?

I wouldn't dare ask these questions anywhere else  :&

Peace,
Respectfully.

I guess we should be patient and wait. In the HereAfter, we will have the chance to go further and farther in our Knowledge, God willing and make bigger progress, God willing.

Remember, God loves the patient.

Peace.
39:53 Say: ?O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of God\'s mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.?

nsws1988

Quote from: Alen on June 04, 2009, 09:07:10 AM
Peace,
Respectfully.

I guess we should be patient and wait. In the HereAfter, we will have the chance to go further and farther in our Knowledge, God willing and make bigger progress, God willing.

Remember, God loves the patient.

Peace.

Peace

Yes thats right. There is a limit on the human mind no matter how hard we try.

God bless

khufia

Asking a question is OK as long as the intention is to find the truth not to cause/ create anarchy. Your question is a logical one and many of us "humans" think about that, because our knowledge and understanding of things is based on Science (that means observation). So in our world everything needs to have a beginning and an end.
Our capacity of comprehension comes to an absolute halt even while "understanding" our daily used language. Look at the example below, try to understand them and then consider God who created the Universe.
We commonly say," forever, nothing". What is actually forever and nothing? I personally have been completely unable to know what is NOTHING, " a bottle with vacuum has NOTHING"; " God lives FOREVER"; "Heaven and Hell are FOREVER".
The point is we are not capable of understanding God, but asking for fair reason is well.
Saalam

nsws1988

Quote from: khufia on June 05, 2009, 10:45:00 AM
Asking a question is OK as long as the intention is to find the truth not to cause/ create anarchy. Your question is a logical one and many of us "humans" think about that, because our knowledge and understanding of things is based on Science (that means observation). So in our world everything needs to have a beginning and an end.
Our capacity of comprehension comes to an absolute halt even while "understanding" our daily used language. Look at the example below, try to understand them and then consider God who created the Universe.
We commonly say," forever, nothing". What is actually forever and nothing? I personally have been completely unable to know what is NOTHING, " a bottle with vacuum has NOTHING"; " God lives FOREVER"; "Heaven and Hell are FOREVER".
The point is we are not capable of understanding God, but asking for fair reason is well.
Saalam

Peace

Thanks for your input Khufia and  :welcome: to Free Minds!

God bless

Munzir

Peace.

When I was in primary the South African scholar Mr. Deedat visited the Maldives. He met with the school children and when after the lecture the floor was opened for questions. Apparently one of the pupils asked him : Who made God? he became rather angry and scoffed. You ask this question to God Himself on Jugdement Day.

Godbless.

L.Hu

QuotePeace nsws

It's not wrong to ask questions. A couple of months ago i reflected upon this question myself. Because atheist bring it up a lot when they are trying to disprove God's existence. But through logic, rationality and reason i found out that this question is a logical fallacy. And there exist solid arguments that demolish this claim. And i will go through some of the arguments below.

I think nobody created god, and that god has always existed. My first argument is that through logic and reason we will come to the conclusion that there must always be an ultimate first cause to everything. And the first cause everything is God.

As i mentioned in the beginning of my post the argument which you brought up atheist use a lot. they say if god exist, then who created god. Well, nobody have created god. And do we have any more arguments that can back up the claim that nobody has created god and that god always has existed? In my science class we learned that energy can never be created or disapear, it can only be transformed into other forms. that means that energy has existed from almost the beginning of time. And this is a solid argument to back up the claim that God has always existed. Because if energy have existed from the beginning of time (billions of billions of years), then God can also have existed from the beginning of time. God have existed even before energy because god created energy and everything else in the universe.

Did you know that Time and clock is man-made concepts. The clock and time was created by man. And today through modern science we now know that time is relative. And that the universal clock is wrong. For instance if you live in another planet you will get older faster or more slow because time is different there. you will for instance become an old lady in only the age of 30. Time goes faster or slower in that planet. It may go faster or slower than the planet earth. God is not bound by time. he can exist outside of time since he created day and night etc. If a human being create a computer he can exist oustide that computer. God can exist outside of time since he created time, which means that since he is not controlled by the laws of time, he is therefore eternal.

And since there is only one God and everything else exept God has been created, then God must have been the first cause. he is not bound by the same laws like us since he created the laws. He must have always existed. Just like humans that created the computer. Humans have existed before the computer. God existed before mankind. God is therefore eternal. And the Quran tells us that some beings will enter an eternal dimension:

72:23 It is but an announcement from God, and His messages. And whosoever disobeys God and His messenger, then he will have the fire of Hell to dwell eternally therein.

76:19 And they are encircled with eternal children. If you see them you will think they are pearls which have been scattered about.

98:8 Their reward with their Lord is the gardens of Eden with rivers flowing beneath them, they abide eternally therein....

53:15 Near it is the eternal Paradise.

From the verses above we can see that god can give eternal life to human beings if he wants. And since god can give human beings eternal life, it means that God is eternal. Because you can not give eternal life to someone unless you are eternal yourself. So, maybe the test of this life is that, thos who manage to get further development and reach eternal life, will be with God, and exist in his eternal dimension. And since god exist outside of time, he might exist in an eternal dimension where time does not exist. And if time does not exist in a place, that means that the place or dimension if you will have an eternal system. A system where it has never been a beginning nor it will be and end.

There are more that 40 verses in the Quran that tells us about eternality:

http://free-minds.org/quran/search

And according to the dictionary, eternality means being without beginning or end:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/eternality

Another argument atheists use to try to disprove god's existence, is that they say: Since we can not see god with our eyes, then that means that he cannot exist. Well we can not see aliens with our eyes either, We can not see energy with our eyes. We can not see magnetic fields with our eyes. But it does not matter. Because we know that life on other planets, energy and magnetic fields exist. Even dough we can not see energy with our eyes,  we still know that it exists. Because we can feel the energy. We can feel its presence and existence. We don't have to see anything to know that it exists. We can not see god with our eyes but we can feel his presence.

David_k

I agree that there is a God. But the arguments presented are problematic. The "prime mover" argument presupposes a Judeo-Christian (and Islamic) picture of God, and secondly it presupposes causation. Heraclitus and Henri Bergson challenge the first assumption, and David Hume and Immanuel Kant challenge the second (Kant is also famous for trying to refute the ontological argument for God, but I refer to him now because of his view of causation as a synthetic a priori). Note that language is full of the grammar of cause and effect. Everything I have said is based on a "Cause-Effect" framework. So you could say causation is a illusion constructed by language. I do not believe this, but such a argument can be made. And Hume made such conclusions more reasonable. "Well we can not see aliens with our eyes either, We can not see energy with our eyes. We can not see magnetic fields with our eyes. But it does not matter. Because we know that life on other planets, energy and magnetic fields exist." I will not say anything about aliens, but I will say something concerning energy and magnetic fields. Many philosophers of Science have argued that these concepts of energy and fields and other such notions are pragmatic constructs. In other words they do not exist. They are there for the purpose of explaning phenomena that we can see, smell, hear, and touch. Just words. So one could argue that only what we can see, smell, hear, and touch is real. I am of the opinion that the best argument for God's existence is the "ontological argument". But it presupposes God's perfection. And there is also something very fishy about it (but no one has found out what it is that makes this argument so good yet so fishy).

nsws1988

Peace L.Hu,

What is the ontological argument?

God bless

L.Hu

The first (western) ontological argument was created by St Anselm (although he is not the only philosopher to have offered such a argument, and some earlier Muslim philosophers formulated similar arguments), who is also considered the father of the Scholastic tradition. Anselm's argument is the most famous of the ontological arguments (although it has its problems). Kurt G?del offered something like Anselm's argument, and his version is very interesting. His version is created on the firm ground of modal-logic. But in order to avoid confusion, I will deal only with Anselm's argument (which was the first western presentation of the argument, and is the argument mostly in mind when the ontological argument is made reference to). First let me state a basic family resemblance (to use Wittgenstein's words) between all ontological arguments. These arguments try to prove God's existence by purely a priori means. In other words, these arguments utilize only reason. In explaining Anselm's argument I will ignore the debate surrounding what the argument was really meant to do. Many think that the account givin of Anselm's argument in traditional books on the history of philosophy are wrong. I will not discuss these unconventional views of what Anselm meant (again) to avoid confusion, not because the traditional account of what Anselm meant is right. Now to the ontological argument. Here is the argument of Anselm.

"Thus even the fool is convinced that something than which nothing greater can be conceived is in the understanding, since when he hears this, he understands it; and whatever is understood is in the understanding. And certainly that than which a greater cannot be conceived cannot be in the understanding alone. For if it is even in the understanding alone, it can be conceived to exist in reality also, which is greater. Thus if that than which a greater cannot be conceived is in the understanding alone, then that than which a greater cannot be conceived is itself that than which a greater can be conceived. But surely this cannot be. Thus without doubt something than which a greater cannot be conceived exists, both in the understanding and in reality."

The argument is ingenious. But there is something wrong about it. And opinon is very divided on what exactly is wrong. Kant criticised the argument with his notion of existence as a "linguistic predicate" not a "real predicate". Anyway one chooses to attack (or defend) Anselm's version of the ontological argument, something is wrong with it. But a stronger version of Anselm's argument can be found. The philosopher Norman Malcom has pointed out that in the Proslagion Anselm argued that if a necessary being could exist, then it must exist, because it is a contradiction to assert that a necessary being does not exist. This variant of Anselm's version of the ontological argument (although still fishy) escapes many of the attacks that the more well known version has recieved. I have presented the oldest ontological argument (even though it is one of the weakest) to (another "again") avoid confusion. Much more convincing ontological arguments are out there like the modern ones formulated by G?del, Alvin Plantinga, Norman Malcom, Oppenheimer and Zalta, Hawthorne and a few others. But these arguments are still problematic.