IS THERE SUCH A THING AS...ISLAMIC PHILOSOPHY...?

[asdfjk]

Al-quran tells mankind what life is all about, how to live in the best way and what is the ultimate reality is. Isn't this what philosophy is about too ? If so, Al-Quran must be a book of philosophy.

peace bro

I'd say thats precisely why al-Quran isn't a book of philosophy

The western philosophical tradition is based on doubt.  Ever since Rene Descartes doubted that he existed and tried to proved to himself philosophically that he existed.  He came up with the well known phrase - "I think therefore I am" - the fact that he was able to think proved to Descartes that he existed.  Doubt and a self critical method is essential for philosophy to take place.

As a muslim I can have all kinds of doubts about the way I am behaving in the world and what the meaning of my existence - but I have 'no doubt' about Allah and the word of God.  Indeed the message of God induces the opposite of 'doubt' -namely, certainty.

The point is that although the God's word is perfect I am not. And although God's book is complete my understanding of it is not.  Indeed it never can be - only God can have a complete understanding of his book.  The space between the book and my understanding of it is where an Islamic philosophy is possible.  

peace all
asdfjk

[mquran]

Salaamun alaikum,

As a muslim I can have all kinds of doubts about the way I am behaving in the world and what the meaning of my existence - but I have 'no doubt' about Allah and the word of God. Indeed the message of God induces the opposite of 'doubt' -namely, certainty.

So let me ask you, do you BEGIN with a position of certainty ? When you read the Quran, were you already certain that it's God word even before opening the book ? If so, it was lucky you didn't open Capital by Marx first, else you would think that it has no doubt.

If you weren't already certain, then u were in doubt.  Al-Quraan induces certainty yes, but after examination and reflection (41/53). If there was no doubt to begin with, there would be no need for examination and reflection.

[asdfjk]

So let me ask you, do you BEGIN with a position of certainty ?

peace bro - yes I was certain of the existence of God before I ever read the quran.

When you read the Quran, were you already certain that it's God word even before opening the book ? .... If you weren't already certain, then u were in doubt.

I was not certain quran was God's word - but that's not because I had doubt about the Quran - its simply because I hadn't encoutered it.  Doubt & Certainty depend upon somekind of engagement with whatever you have doubt or certainty about.  Prior to reading quran my view on it was not on the doubt-certainty axis.  I was rather, simply ignorant of it.

Al-Quraan induces certainty yes, but after examination and reflection (41/53). If there was no doubt to begin with, there would be no need for examination and reflection.

agreed bro.  But are you talking here about a doubt as to the authenticity of the quran as scripture?  Or a more fundamental doubt as to the existence of God?  Just doubting the authenticity of a scripture doesnt make it a work of philosophy - if thats what you're saying it is.  Forgive me if I misunderstand your post.

salaams
asdfjk

[Dhulqarnain]

Salaamun Asdfjk

***I see no contradiction here. Allah's din is set out in his scripture and is his message to his creation.***

Then what is the difference between Islamic Philosophy and the Din of Allah/Al-Islam?  They both cannot be the same thing?  Philosophy, being the love of wisdom, is what should bring an individual to the Din of Allah/Al-Islam.

***Philosphy is something that human's do in order to help them understand the world around them and their relationship to God. At many points in the qur'an Allah requests that we use our intelligence and reflect
upon his signs and it is our duty to act on this.***

Din of Allah/Al-Islam is what truly helps people understand the world around them and their relationship to God, because it is perfect/the whole truth.  By your own admission [ "I'd say thats precisely why al-Quran isn't a book of philosophy". ] your reject, and correctly so that, Al-Qur-an is a book of philosophy, hence, Al-Islam cannot be a philosophy, hence, there can be no such thing as "Islamic Philosophy.  Do you know of any perfect philosophy?

***As long as one understands that din is from God and philosophy is part of our human response to God's creation there is no contradiction. If humans start ascribing philosophy to God (ie claiming that al-Qur'an is a work of philosophy, for example) then they are trangressing the bounds of their relationship to their Rabb.***

Precisely why we should not refer to Al-Islam as a philosophy, becuase many will, as they are doing now,  confuse the Din of Allah/Al-Islam as a philosophical system and Al-Qur-an as a book of philosophy.

All philosophies, as with ideologies, reflect truth and falsehood because they are from man and man is imperfect.  One can only have "Islamic Philosophy" if the hadiths are are perceived as being fundamental to Al-Islam.  Indeed, becuase the hadiths are viewed in this manner, Al-Islam is now being practiced, as it has for several centuries, incorrecty and, has become for all but the Allah/Qur-an ONLY Muslims, Islamic Phiolosphy.  It is Islamic Philosophy, becuase it has mixed truth [Din of Allah/Al-Islam] with conjecture and falsehood [the hadiths]...as are all philosophies, a mix of truth and conjecture/falsehood.

[asdfjk]

Then what is the difference between Islamic Philosophy and the Din of Allah/Al-Islam?  They both cannot be the same thing?  Philosophy, being the love of wisdom, is what should bring an individual to the Din of Allah/Al-Islam.

peace dhulqarnain

I dont think philosophy is the love of wisdom!   I think its way of asking rigorous questions about the fundamentals of human existence.  This doesnt produce wisdom - it simply produces philosophy.

Perhaps this is why, despite all that we seem to agree on in this issue I still feel it is possible to concieve of an 'islamic philosophy'.  What I mean by that is a philosophy that is based on the precepts of Islam as set out in the Qur'an.  A way of asking questions about the nature of the world based on a monothestic Islam.

your reject, and correctly so that, Al-Qur-an is a book of philosophy, hence, Al-Islam cannot be a philosophy, hence, there can be no such thing as "Islamic Philosophy.  Do you know of any perfect philosophy?*

I don't think Al-Islam is a philosophy.  But that doesn't mean there cannot be "islamic philosphy."  Just because philosophy is an imperfect activity doenst make mean it cannot be Islamic.  Unless perhaps you are objecting to the word "islamic" being used in connection with anything other than the actual words in the qur'an.  But I'd say I can behave 'islamically' in my relations with others in the world - and my behaviour will still be imperfect because I am imperfect,  

All philosophies, as with ideologies, reflect truth and falsehood because they are from man and man is imperfect.  One can only have "Islamic Philosophy" if the hadiths are are perceived as being fundamental to Al-Islam.

I suspect bro we come to the core of your objection here :wink: - and I totally agree that basing an Islamic philosphy on hadith is as mistaken as all the other facets of traditional islam which derive from hadithic lore.  But nonetheless I would hold there is a scope for an islamic philosphical practice which is based on God's word alone - just as there is scope for an islamic political practice or an islamic cultural practice which similarly looks to Allah's din for its precepts and morality.

salaam alaykum brother
asdfjk

[Dhulqarnain]

Salaamun Asdjfk

***I dont think philosophy is the love of wisdom! I think its way of asking rigorous questions about the fundamentals of human existence. This doesnt produce wisdom - it simply produces philosophy.***

Precisely!  Philosophy, being mixture of truth and conjecture, asks questions of the human being, who, if he/she is serious about the answers, is inevitably drawn not to an Islamic philosophy [more truth and conjecture], but to the Din of Allah/Al-Islam--all truth.

***Perhaps this is why, despite all that we seem to agree on in this issue I still feel it is possible to concieve of an 'islamic philosophy'. What I mean by that is a philosophy that is based on the precepts of Islam as set out in the Qur'an. A way of asking questions about the nature of the world based on a monothestic Islam.***

O.k. suppose for a moment that smeone comes to you and says,..."well, I do believe in one God and I try do good deals and live right.  While I do not eat pork I will have an occasional alcohol beverage , I never steal, I take care of my family, I wholeheartedly believe in marriage, but I have no problem living with someone and not be married..if we truly love and are committed to each other".  Now, given this individual's position, his/hers philosophy is based on some Islamic precepts, however, is his/her philosophical view acceptable to Allah?

***I don't think Al-Islam is a philosophy. But that doesn't mean there cannot be "islamic philosphy." Just because philosophy is an imperfect activity doenst make mean it cannot be Islamic. Unless perhaps you are objecting to the word "islamic" being used in connection with anything other than the actual words in the qur'an. But I'd say I can behave 'islamically' in my relations with others in the world - and my behaviour will still be imperfect because I am imperfect***

Yes, once the suffix "ic" is added to a word, it means that that term is "like" the thing it's being compared with, but it is not that that thing actually [as in my analogy above].  Al-Islam, needs no qualifier/modifier of any kind, because it is what it is at any given moment.

***I suspect bro we come to the core of your objection here  - and I totally agree that basing an Islamic philosphy on hadith is as mistaken as all the other facets of traditional islam which derive from hadithic lore. But nonetheless I would hold there is a scope for an islamic philosphical practice which is based on God's word alone - just as there is scope for an islamic political practice or an islamic cultural practice which similarly looks to Allah's din for its precepts and morality.***

Once again, you are contradicting yourself and not differentiating Islamic Philosophy from Din of Allah/Al-Islam.  Al-Islam or what is called Al-Islam today should rightly be called Islamic Philosophy, [but not Al-Islam] because it is heavily interwoven with the hadiths, there is no arguing this point.  Clearly, Al-Islam, as it is practiced by all except the Allah/Qur-an ONLY Muslims, is based on some principles found in Al-Qur-an, however, much of what they are doing is not found in Al-Qur-an.  So, once again, we have the mixing of truth and conjecture, hence,---Islamic Philosophy, but not the Din of Allah/Al-Islam.  Al-Islam ceased being practiced several hundreds of centuries ago by the vast majority of Muslims and what has taken its place is---Islamic Philosophy.

[asdfjk]

O.k. suppose for a moment that smeone comes to you and says,..."well, I do believe in one God and I try do good deals and live right.  While I do not eat pork I will have an occasional alcohol beverage , I never steal, I take care of my family, I wholeheartedly believe in marriage, but I have no problem living with someone and not be married..if we truly love and are committed to each other".  Now, given this individual's position, his/hers philosophy is based on some Islamic precepts, however, is his/her philosophical view acceptable to Allah?

salaam alaykum dhulqarnain.

You raise some good points - the idea that islam as practiced by the vast majority is actaully 'islamic philosophy' is an interesting one.  However I think we need to distinguish between different uses of the word philosophy.

In the example you use above - about the individual who believes in God, doesnt steal etc you use the term philosphy to describe his world view - how he sees things.  This is common usage of the word philosophy and in the context you are using it is entirely correct.

However when I use the term philosphy I'm refering to something much more specific - namely a tradition of intellectual enquiry which stretches back about 2500 years.  In this use of the term 'philosophy' does not ask questions like:

"should i eat pork" (as we both know brother, Allah has answered that one for us) but rather questions like "what are the ethics of repetition"  It is questions such as this that I believe an Islamic Philosophy should address itself.

Tell me bro - how would you feel about a term like 'monotheistic philosophy'.  Would it be as objectionable to you as the term 'Islamic philosophy'?

peace, asdfjk

[Dhulqarnain]

Salaamun Asdjfk

PHILOSOPHY

Philosophy is the critical study of the most fundamental questions that humankind has been able to ask. Philosophers ask questions like:

Ontology: What is the nature of things that exist outside of us? Are there things in a natural world independent of our perception? Do our perceptions of reality match the actual reality that is "out there"? If so, how do we know?

Metaphysics: What does it mean to think, to have a mind? How can we know that other minds (i.e. other thinking beings) actually exist?

Ethics: Is there a difference between right and wrong, and if so, how can we prove this? How do we apply theoretical ideas of right and wrong in practical situations?

Theology: What do we mean by the word "God"? Does God exist?

Epistemology: Is knowledge possible, and if so, what is knowledge?

Philosophy is paradigmatically concerned with fundamental concepts such as existence, goodness, knowledge, and beauty; philosophers have often been particularly concerned with asking critical questions about the natures of these concepts--questions which don't seem to be amenable to treatment by the special sciences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_philosophy

According to this defintion, philosophy, is the critical study of the above five categories.  This why I said earlier that, philosophy leads an individual to the Din of Allah/Al-Islam.  Can we rightly say then that, Al-Islam is the critical study of the above five categories or must we say that fully explains/answers those categories?  

***Tell me bro - how would you feel about a term like 'monotheistic philosophy'. Would it be as objectionable to you as the term 'Islamic philosophy'?***

I reject that term as well.  Judaism and Christianity are examples of monotheistic philosophy[truth and conjecture].

Still, can it be said that--Al-Islam, is the ONLY prefect...philosophy?  This defintion has given me pause to rethink some things.

[Dhulqarnain]

Salaamu TO ALL

PHILOSOPHY: is the critical study of the most fundamental questions that humankind has been able to ask. Philosophers ask questions like:

Ontology: What is the nature of things that exist outside of us? Are there things in a natural world independent of our perception? Do our perceptions of reality match the actual reality that is "out there"? If so, how do we know?

Metaphysics: What does it mean to think, to have a mind? How can we know that other minds (i.e. other thinking beings) actually exist?

Ethics: Is there a difference between right and wrong, and if so, how can we prove this? How do we apply theoretical ideas of right and wrong in practical situations?

Theology: What do we mean by the word "God"? Does God exist?

Epistemology: Is knowledge possible, and if so, what is knowledge?
Philosophy is paradigmatically concerned with fundamental concepts such as existence, goodness, knowledge, and beauty; philosophers have often been particularly concerned with asking critical questions about the natures of these concepts--questions which don't seem to be amenable to treatment by the special sciences.

Given the above definition/description of philosophy, and after much deliberation, I have come to the conclusion that  Al-Islam is a philosophy, but more than that it--is the ONLY PERFECT philosophy, in contrast to other myriads of philosophies out there.  So, I rescind my previous assertion in regard to this matter.  

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[L.Hu]

Philosophy: Philosophy has no real definition because nobody agrees on what it is. The most broad definition one can think of is a attempt to understand existence. By existence I mean everything that ever enters the human mind. Mind, body, language, perception, knowledge, sex, rules, consciousness, being, logic, God, knowledge, time, pain, happiness, religion, power, social control, free will, common sense's validity, anything under the sun, by anything I mean anything.

Ontology: What does it mean to be and to be a being?

Metaphysics: What is reality? Does reality have a ultimate nature and if so what? Is reality absolute or not? Does a truth somehow match reality? In the past century this branch of philosophy has been attacked so much that one could say a crusade was being waged against it.

Ethics: What is right? What is wrong? On what basis do we decide what is right or wrong? Are there any eternal moral values?

Epistemology: What is knowledge?

I would say Islam is not a philosophy. Religion bases itself on a unique authority called the divine. In philosophy there is no authority. Not even reason. Many have given philosophy a source of authority but in the end these types of philosophers lose all credence.