Author Topic: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...  (Read 37784 times)

progressive1993

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #110 on: September 20, 2009, 03:00:16 AM »
"Brothers" has been used for the disbelievers/truth concealers, as well, If you research akhwa. Just off the top of my head: 3:156

Your're right, but...

3:156 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola takoonoo kaallatheena kafaroo waqalooli-ikhwanihim itha daraboo fee al-ardiaw kanoo ghuzzan law kanoo AAindana mamatoo wama qutiloo liyajAAala Allahu thalikahasratan fee quloobihim waAllahu yuhyeewayumeetu waAllahu bima taAAmaloona baseerun

...there is no 'deen' here (ie. it doesnt say 'brothers in your deen').


What's your evidence for: "The quran informs us that the practices of islam were initially revealed to abraham,"

Which deen was Noah following? Abraham came from Noah's group: 37:83 .

That doesnt mean that the rites/practices (like hajj, for example) didnt start with Abraham.

2:125 We have made the sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. Utilize the place of Abraham to reach out. We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael, "You shall purify My sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who humble themselves and make obeisance."

2:126 Abraham said, "My Lord, make this town secure, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever acknowledges God and the Last day." He said, "As for he who does not appreciate, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the fire, what a miserable destiny!"

2:127 As Abraham raised the foundations for the sanctuary with Ishmael, "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."

2:128 "Our Lord, and let us peacefully surrender to You and from our progeny a nation peacefully surrendering to You, and show us our rites and forgive us; You are the Most Forgiving, the Compassionate."

2:129 "Our Lord, and send amongst them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your signs and teach them the book and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise."

2:130 Who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter, he is of the reformers.


21:73 We made them leaders who guide by Our command, and We inspired them to do good work and hold the bond and contribute towards betterment, and they were in service to Us.


3:96 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.


The deen/Islam has always been the same - 42:13.

Just because one is submitting to God doesnt mean that they have rites/practices.

5:48 We have sent down to you the book with truth, authenticating what is present of the book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, a structure. Had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you, so advance the good deeds. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Wakas

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #111 on: September 20, 2009, 04:08:27 AM »
peace Jack,

Nice find with 3:156. There is similar with 33:18.

33:10-25 doesn't seem to be related to 8:30-40 and/or 9:1-19, as it is about the hypocrites fighting along with the "believers" against others, not of polytheists and a treaty with them to live in peace, then attacking them etc.

Re: 107
Yes, what deen is, is rather obvious. A common problem is some people look at Arabic words and think they have a magical/special religious-orientated meaning, e.g. "salat", "zakat", "akhw", "mulsim", "mumin", "kafir", "deen", "hajj", "malaika", "shaytan" etc...... when the fact is, the religious-ification of islam, al quran, its words/concepts came later. This can be seen by a simple study of AQ itself and how it uses these words.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Jack

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #112 on: September 20, 2009, 09:06:49 PM »
Peace,

Quote
Your're right, but...

3:156 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola takoonoo kaallatheena kafaroo waqalooli-ikhwanihim itha daraboo fee al-ardiaw kanoo ghuzzan law kanoo AAindana mamatoo wama qutiloo liyajAAala Allahu thalikahasratan fee quloobihim waAllahu yuhyeewayumeetu waAllahu bima taAAmaloona baseerun

...there is no 'deen' here (ie. it doesnt say 'brothers in your deen').

To understand brothers in your deen, you have to understand what 'brother' really means.

Quote
That doesnt mean that the rites/practices (like hajj, for example) didnt start with Abraham.

That in itself is not evidence. If indeed all the messengers are told the same thing (41:43), how is Abraham told something different from Noah? Especially because he sprung from Noah's company. Noah also had a sanctuary/house - 71:28. 33:33 and 10:87 give a good picture of the house.



Re: 3-96


7-143:

...When he awoke, he said: "Glory be to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe."

Were there no believers before Moses?


Quote
Just because one is submitting to God doesnt mean that they have rites/practices.

Why must "rites" be part of one's deen? What's the evidence for this view?

-There is only one system- islam -  a common noun

-All the messengers followed the same system

-Al quran contrasts those who deny the system with shrik, e.g. 9:33, 16:52 and 29:65, as we segue back to chapter 9.


How do "jews" make a mockery of the system? 4:46


You gotta follow the truth even it brings the whole thing crumbling down around you - Sam Tyler, Life on Mars (UK)

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense

Jack

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #113 on: September 20, 2009, 09:15:54 PM »
Peace Wakas,

Quote
33:10-25 doesn't seem to be related to 8:30-40 and/or 9:1-19, as it is about the hypocrites fighting along with the "believers" against others, not of polytheists and a treaty with them to live in peace, then attacking them etc.

This is true for the most part. I think it's showing 'the other side' - the believers and among them hypocrites..

It mentions allatheen kufaroo/those who concealed/rejected in 33:25. I am basing it on 33:25. The God sparing the believers any fighting = the treaty.

Quote
Yes, what deen is, is rather obvious. A common problem is some people look at Arabic words and think they have a magical/special religious-orientated meaning, e.g. "salat", "zakat", "akhw", "mulsim", "mumin", "kafir", "deen", "hajj", "malaika", "shaytan" etc...... when the fact is, the religious-ification of islam, al quran, its words/concepts came later. This can be seen by a simple study of AQ itself and how it uses these words.

Exactly.
It's difficult for some (consciously or subconsciously) to study AQ with no preconceptions. When I read it, I pretend I know nothing of a particular subject I am studying, so that new ideas might hit me.



You gotta follow the truth even it brings the whole thing crumbling down around you - Sam Tyler, Life on Mars (UK)

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense

abdalquran

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #114 on: September 25, 2009, 12:03:54 AM »

I would also try to contrast between 'deen' and 'iman'. Salat is performed by our 'brothers in deen' but never our 'brothers in iman'. There must be a reason for this.
Farouk A. Peru

abdalquran

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #115 on: October 10, 2009, 11:51:02 AM »
   Yes it means " The Prayers." And the prayers were ordained on the belivers, not the non believers. God is seeking those believers being led by the Spirit to establish alssalawaati. Thus, you caint expect the unbelievers to keep the prayers.  :peace: And asalat is used in 5/106 to make it clear to you.  :peace:

Here's a breakdown of 5/106 for your convenience:
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo ? O you who BELIEVE. (so who is the audience here? BELIEVERS)
shahadatu bayniKUM itha hadara ahadaKUMU almawtu heena alwasiyyati ? take witnsseses between YOU when one of YOU is close to death during the time of drawing up the will (so once again, the YOU here refers to who? Believers)
thawa AAadlin minKUM - 2 posessors of justice from YOU. (and yet again, we have the YOU who are the BELIEVERS)
aw akharani min ghayriKUM ? or 2 others from OTHER than YOU (who are other than BELIEVERS? Non-believers)
in antum darabtum fee al-ardi ? if you are travelling through the earth
faasabatKUM museebatu almawti ? and death befalls you.
tahbisoonahuma min baAAdi alssalati ? detain them both after AS-SALAT

It can?t get clearer than this. As-salat is definitely not the prayers.
Farouk A. Peru

herbman

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #116 on: October 14, 2009, 08:11:14 AM »
Salam, Peace,

just my 2 cents, for me salat is a "social system" as per surat 107.
So aqimu assalat would mean uphold the social system e.g. social solidarity.

regards

Wakas

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #117 on: January 24, 2015, 04:41:48 AM »
On another thread, member Mazhar raised a concern that a conditional and apodosis clause somehow shows the following:

Quote from: Mazhar
Once the conditions are fulfilled, they are no more polytheists; they have become Muslims for which reason the apodosis clause declares them as brothers in Deen: Islam. Ideologically reverting to Monotheism and then the two physical performances are the symbols of Islam.

Plenty of baseless interpolations in the above.

And then claimed:

Quote
A conditional sentence alongwith apodosis clause does not mean commanding some body as is your basic argument in the link under discussion.

But failed to provide a quote from my article wherein I state they are commanded. Not to mention the above statement seem to misunderstand my argument.

My argument is simple: there is very little to no evidence of a conversion (which the traditional understanding of salat requires). Those disputing this usually argue along the lines of this is an exception in Quran and a conversion is implied, not explicit. Some may find this argument acceptable, I don't.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

hicham9

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #118 on: February 05, 2015, 09:20:30 AM »
Quote
7-143:

...When he awoke, he said: "Glory be to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe."

Were there no believers before Moses?
 

Peace Jack@

A more coherent understanding of the passage in question would be that: Moses declared himself to be the first of the "acknowledgers" [...]  i.e. he acknowleged that G-D cannot be seen (by mortals).

SLM
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Man of Faith

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #119 on: February 05, 2015, 10:48:12 AM »
Amen means to realize or make something a particular way through realization and not believe. Moses realized as a consequence of the experience.

And the lesson is that God has no form or shape, or time and place, but it omnipresent and in control of every atom. Moses realized this among other things. He was repentant because he had already known the nature of God but was still testing God due to some doubt inside him. After this he had realized for sure.

Salaam
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