Author Topic: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...  (Read 38920 times)

Wakas

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #100 on: September 18, 2009, 06:00:20 PM »
How do you understand the salat in 8:35 vs. 9:11?

From: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
Chapter 9

1. An acquittal/release from The God and His messenger to those with whom you made a treaty from among the polytheists.
2. Therefore, roam the earth for four months and know that you will not escape The God, and that The God will disgrace the ungrateful/rejecters.
3. And an announcement from The God and His messenger to the people on the greatest/peak day of the conference/symposium: "The God is quit/free from the polytheists and so is His messenger". If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape The God. And give news to those who conceal/reject of a painful retribution.
4. Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you; you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
5. So when the restricted months are passed, then you may fight the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then clear/vacate their way/path. Truly, The God is Turning/Forgiving, Embracing/Merciful.
6. And if anyone from the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the word of The God, then deliver him to his safety/security. This is because they are a people who do not know.
7. How can those polytheists have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger, except for those with whom you made a pledge/agreement at the institute of acknowledging the restriction? As long as they are straight with you, then you are straight with them. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
8. How is it when they gain the upper-hand they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts are hostile, and most of them are wicked.
9. They purchased with The God's signs/revelations a small gain, so they could turn others from His path. Truly, evil is what they were doing.
10. They do not respect believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. These are the transgressors/wrongdoers.
11. But if they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers/allies in the obligation/system. We detail/explain our signs/revelations for a people who know.
12. And if they break their oaths after making them, and they assail (cause damage) in your obligation/system; then you may fight the chiefs of ungratefulness/rejection. Truly, their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then stop.

8:35
And their bond at the house was nothing but noise/whistling and clapping/aversion/deception. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.



Interestingly, when two groups sign a treaty, make a public pledge etc, it is usually followed by group applause, celebratory noise etc in this case possible whistling and clapping. And since it says their bond/salat was nothing but this, this implies the actual pledge/bond aspect was meaningless, which makes it a fit.


Also, note the accuracy of usage of KFR in both passages.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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progressive1993

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #101 on: September 19, 2009, 09:38:32 AM »
Peace Wakas,


9:11 But if they repent, and uphold the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain our signs for a people who know.

Don't you think that they became believers, based on the above verse?
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Wakas

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #102 on: September 19, 2009, 01:56:49 PM »
p1993,

To answer your question, I have a radical idea, how about actually reading the referenced link in my last post? I wrote the article several years ago, and as far as I'm aware, no-one has written a rebuttal. The correlation between 8:30-40 adds more evidence to my view. I recommend reading them several times each, e.g read 8:39 in conjunction with 9:11.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

progressive1993

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #103 on: September 19, 2009, 03:17:24 PM »
p1993,

To answer your question, I have a radical idea, how about actually reading the referenced link in my last post? I wrote the article several years ago, and as far as I'm aware, no-one has written a rebuttal. The correlation between 8:30-40 adds more evidence to my view. I recommend reading them several times each, e.g read 8:39 in conjunction with 9:11.

I agree with you that 9:5-6 has nothing to do with ritual prayer, since it is talking about 'mushriks' holding the salat, whereas the salat as in reading the reading/quran at dawn and in the evening together with praising God, etc. is for the mumins.

In 9:11 it is different, since it talks about them being 'brothers in the system'.

I also agree with you that repentance does not mean 'conversion' (and definitely not in 9:5-6), but 9:11 talks about repentance AND them being brothers in the system. 9:12 says that if they violate their oaths and attack our system (ie. turn back to their old ways), then we may fight them. It is also significant that it uses 'the system' in 9:11 and 'your system' in 9:12, showing a change - they no longer are part of the system.

I also agree with you that 'salat' means 'bond'. Oath is a possibility, but there is already a word for that one used: 'ayman'/'aymanahum'. 'Ties' and 'pledge' are also used in 9:7 and 9:10, which are similar-meaning words.

The contrast between "uphold the salat" + "bring forth the betterment" and "break their oaths after making them" + "they assail (cause damage) in your obligation/system" is quite interesting.

If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding. The meaning of 'bond', 'bonding', etc. for salat and its derivatives is applicable for all/nearly all verses in the reading/quran, IMO.

I dont think that 9:5 is the same as/similar/talks about "the same 'salat'" as in 9:11/as described in 9:11.

I think the situation in chapter 8 is more likely to be the 'prayer-like salat' (ie. not oath).

8:34 Why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from the inviolable institution/place of obedience/temple, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous. But most of them do not know.

8:35 Their salat at the house/sanctuary was nothing but deception/noise and aversion. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.

Edip-Layth - End Note 3 (8:35)
"The Quran informs us that the practices of Islam were initially revealed to Abraham. Abraham and his followers were observing the sala prayer (21:73). Meccan polytheists never accepted that they were polytheists (6:23,148; 16:35). Since they believed in the intercession of some holy people, and since they falsely attributed numerous prohibitions and rules to God, the Quran considered them polytheists..."
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

jaythikay99

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #104 on: September 19, 2009, 04:03:57 PM »

I think the situation in chapter 8 is more likely to be the 'prayer-like salat' (ie. not oath).

8:35 Their salat at the house/sanctuary was nothing but deception/noise and aversion. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.

Edip-Layth - End Note 3 (8:35)
"The Quran informs us that the practices of Islam were initially revealed to Abraham. Abraham and his followers were observing the sala prayer (21:73). Meccan polytheists never accepted that they were polytheists (6:23,148; 16:35). Since they believed in the intercession of some holy people, and since they falsely attributed numerous prohibitions and rules to God, the Quran considered them polytheists..."

you are right, salat of polytheists is more prayer-like salat as its clear from 8:35. and I guess quran doesn't confirm their prayer-like salat.

 :peace:

Wakas

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #105 on: September 19, 2009, 04:05:18 PM »
I recommend re-reading.

From: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm

Quote
Clearly, according to the dictionaries, akhw has a much wider meaning. In fact, 'the reading' itself confirms this understanding [2:220, 3:103, 7:65, 7:73, 7:85, 11:50, 11:61, 15:47, 17:27, 26:106, 26:124, 26:142, 26:161, 27:45, 33:5, 46:21, 49:10, 58:22]

Quote
And last but by no means least, nowhere in 'the reading' does it state fight those who break their "oath of Islam", i.e. those who become disbelievers after accepting Islam. In fact, people are free to believe then disbelieve if they wish [4:137].

Quote
The wording of this verse strongly implies that they (polytheists/transgressors) are not considered to be anything other than polytheists/transgressors: "...and THEY assail in YOUR obligation/system (deen)...". This clearly shows they are being discussed as separate groups and it was NEVER considered their "deen".

Cross reference with 8:39
"And fight them all until there is no more oppression, and so that the entire deen is God's..."

The obvious question: what is deen? Since we know someone can assail (i.e. cause damage) in it, and just as someone can live according to it (see 12:76), what is the obvious, and perhaps only answer? Is it a religion/system requiring its followers to all be of the same belief/faith? Only those of the same belief/faith can live in a deen? (disproven by the story of Joseph). Or is it simply a system, an obligation, that which is due, a requital, a power-relation, a real-world structure / way of life.... that anyone can live in, as long as they accept and therefore abide by the deen of that land/community? Once this is understood, we can see why AQ uses the generic term akhw, incorrectly translated as "brother", as proven by AQ. From Lane's Lexicon: "When it does not relate to birth, it means conformity/similarity and combination/agreement or unison in action.".

Quote
If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding.

Please re-read the article several times, examining all concepts/words.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Wakas

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #106 on: September 19, 2009, 04:06:45 PM »
you are right, salat of polytheists is more prayer-like salat as its clear from 8:35.

Clear from 8:35? Nonsense.

Quote
and I guess quran doesn't confirm their prayer-like salat.

Yes, when one has no evidence, guesswork is all they have.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

jaythikay99

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #107 on: September 19, 2009, 04:17:13 PM »
Clear from 8:35? Nonsense.

Yes, when one has no evidence, guesswork is all they have.

yes their prayer-like salat doesn't make any sense. and we have no other evidence except 8:35

progressive1993

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #108 on: September 19, 2009, 05:10:30 PM »
you are right, salat of polytheists is more prayer-like salat as its clear from 8:35. and I guess quran doesn't confirm their prayer-like salat.

 :peace:

I said that it referred to them holding the salat (ie. holding the bond and "praying", if you understand that better, as opposed to making an oath.) Remember that salat = prayer
10:41 If they deny you, say: "My works are for me, and your works are for you. You are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what you do."

Jack

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Re: salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
« Reply #109 on: September 19, 2009, 05:37:15 PM »
Quote
If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding. The meaning of 'bond', 'bonding', etc. for salat and its derivatives is applicable for all/nearly all verses in the reading/quran, IMO.


"Brothers" has been used for the disbelievers/truth concealers, as well, If you research akhwa. Just off the top of my head: 3:156

.
Quote
Edip-Layth - End Note 3 (8:35)
"The Quran informs us that the practices of Islam were initially revealed to Abraham. Abraham and his followers were observing the sala prayer (21:73). Meccan polytheists never accepted that they were polytheists (6:23,148; 16:35). Since they believed in the intercession of some holy people, and since they falsely attributed numerous prohibitions and rules to God, the Quran considered them polytheists..."

What's your evidence for: "The quran informs us that the practices of islam were initially revealed to abraham,"

Which deen was Noah following? Abraham came from Noah's group: 37:83 .

How many deens are we to follow? Hint: 3-19.

The deen/Islam has always been the same - 42:13.





Wakas, do you think 33:10-25 is also about the same events? I'm still studying it, so not sure either way. But it seems that way.

Or is it simply a system, an obligation, that which is due, a requital, a power-relation, a real-world structure / way of life.... that anyone can live in, as long as they accept and therefore abide by the deen of that land/community?".


 Chapter 107 is sufficient, imo.  :D
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