Let's delve deep Rashad Khalifa's messenger claim... be honest

[Fusion]

Maybe 3:81 is not necessarily about identifying one specific figure but about a principle:
When someone comes and confirms what you already had like truth guidance clarity then the test is how you respond not who they are...

On Number 19:
If someone discovers a pattern in the Quran and it pulls them toward the One true God why be upset at that?
If it pushes someone away maybe the number is not the issue maybe the heart was..

Maybe the real test is not whether the number is divine
but whether we let any number distract us from what is

In the end the Quran was sent to pierce the heart and not to be an intellectual puzzle or a numerical exercise.

[jkhan]

Maybe 3:81 is not necessarily about identifying one specific figure but about a principle:
When someone comes and confirms what you already had like truth guidance clarity then the test is how you respond not who they are...

On Number 19:
If someone discovers a pattern in the Quran and it pulls them toward the One true God why be upset at that?
If it pushes someone away maybe the number is not the issue maybe the heart was..

Maybe the real test is not whether the number is divine
but whether we let any number distract us from what is

In the end the Quran was sent to pierce the heart and not to be an intellectual puzzle or a numerical exercise.

Lots of maybe's won't solve any issues.. I address those who have deliberately accepted RK as the messenger of Allah, and in their decisions, there are no maybes.. They are certain.. So address them with certainty whether their acceptance is justifiable within Al Quran or not.

[shukri]

O Shukri Shukri.. Disturb and Temptation are in no way the same.. You are indeed disturbed.. Try to insert into ChatGPT, perhaps it would give you a good analysis.. lol

Code 19 is a "trial" for atheists/agnostics i.e. a trial for atheists to examine and make decisions on the evidence of miracle-19!
What's wrong with it!

Oxford Learner's Dictionaries:
Trial ... a formal examination of evidence in court by a judge and often a jury, to decide if somebody accused of a crime is guilty or not.

Note:
If you want to translate "trial فتنة" as "temptation" it is up to you!
Not a big deal!

74:31 RK translation '... and to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?..

Even in this forum we can see this type of people asking why code-19 serve as allegory/example
(a) to disturb the disbelievers (kafirun/rejectors/atheists, etc),
(b) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
(c) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(d) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and ...

But they themselves refuse to see or look deeper into it!
AND verse 74:35 i.e. Code-19 as the great one, serving no purpose for them!

Thanks.

[shukri]

It is well and truly obvious that Rasul/Dispatcher mentioned in the verse is not human but a Malak Rasul who always confirmed every Prophet's Kitab (ordainment) and Hikma (judgment) that was revealed to them periodically, but once completed. And this Malak Rasul cannot be the same Rasul who used to deliver the revelations to Prophets, thus while confirmation process is on, these prophets were commanded in a covenant to concur in the Rasul in order to defend what they have..

3:81 God took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support/help (ولتنصرنه) him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you." (RK translation)

We see that the word "لِنصُرْنَهُ" means "support or help him (the messenger)"
If the word "messenger" refers to an angelic messenger, I think the wording "لِنصُرْنَهُ" is not appropriate.
The Quran should use the word "obey" instead of "support"!

OR is there any reason why God asks prophets to believe in the angelic messenger as well as must support him!
Support for what?
I'm quite confused, sorry!

Anyway, who is this "Malak/angelic Rasul"?
Any name for this angel?

Thank you.

[jkhan]

Code 19 is a "trial" for atheists/agnostics i.e. a trial for atheists to examine and make decisions on the evidence of miracle-19!
What's wrong with it!

Oxford Learner's Dictionaries:
Trial ... a formal examination of evidence in court by a judge and often a jury, to decide if somebody accused of a crime is guilty or not.

Note:
If you want to translate "trial فتنة" as "temptation" it is up to you!
Not a big deal!

Even in this forum we can see this type of people asking why code-19 serve as allegory/example
(a) to disturb the disbelievers (kafirun/rejectors/atheists, etc),
(b) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
(c) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(d) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and ...

But they themselves refuse to see or look deeper into it!
AND verse 74:35 i.e. Code-19 as the great one, serving no purpose for them!

Thanks.

Fitna is not TRIAL or DISTURB... FITNA is TEMPTATION.. 'temptation is a strong urge or desire to do something, especially something wrong.'
Meanwhile Quranically 'Balau' is TRIAL i.e. a trial is a difficult test or challenge intended to strengthen or improve..

Choose the right words from Al Quran, you can do only if you depend on Allah.. But you don't believe in Allah, but it is coincidence.. No. 19 you believed not Allah, in case one day No. 19 appeared to you wrong, then the belief in Allah is gone.. through falsehood you can't believe in Allah.. For example, one person said in a Discord chat that he believed in Allah because the Quran mentions the moon landing. However, I asked how he knew that they had landed on the Moon. If he were to be proven wrong one day and it were discovered that they did not land on the Moon, would he still believe in Allah? He said No.. wow..

Come on be honest.. I am a rejector of this code 19 stuff.. Do I ask what did Allah intend by this allegory?
Well, is this phrase 'What did Allah intend by this allegory?' valid after RK theory to ask this or from the time the verse is revealed? if the answer is from the beginning, 'What did Allah intend by this allegory?' could have been in everyone's mind cus it is not solved to BELIEVE in Allah and INCREASE FAITH, regardless of believer or disbeliever or hypocrite..
Hey Shukri, would you have believed in Allah and increased faith if RK had not placed the theory, then if you have read the verse void of his theory, what could be the scenario?

Hmm.. had one understood the verse in its real meaning, no need RK theory to increase faith in it or no need RK theory to say 'what did Allah intend by this allegory'
Anyway, RK theory is not an allegory. Get that right..

[jkhan]

3:81 God took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support/help (ولتنصرنه) him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you." (RK translation)

We see that the word "لِنصُرْنَهُ" means "support or help him (the messenger)"
If the word "messenger" refers to an angelic messenger, I think the wording "لِنصُرْنَهُ" is not appropriate.
The Quran should use the word "obey" instead of "support"!

OR is there any reason why God asks prophets to believe in the angelic messenger as well as must support him!
Support for what?
I'm quite confused, sorry!

Anyway, who is this "Malak/angelic Rasul"?
Any name for this angel?

Thank you.

Are you confused... well, read carefully but be honest.. In Sha Allah, He would open your mind.. I can't do that.. All I can do is present my understanding, try hard through Allah's guidance on matter that are confused..

take the words and grammar and tenses and context right leaving assumptions from the head..

3:81 Moreover, when the Divine obtained the covenant of the illuminated ones, 'As for what I have rendered you of ordainment and wisdom—later, effected to you a confirming dispatcher, as for what was with you, so that you would have concurred by it, thus in order you could have defended it.' He stated, 'Have you relieved yourselves, and have you taken yourselves, according to such of that, of my task?' They stated, 'We have relieved.' He stated, 'Then, testify you while I am along with you, among the testified ones.'
3:82 So, whoever constricted, after that, then such are those, they are the apostate ones.

Indeed the Quran Messenger is subjected to CONCUR in the malak messenger.. without concurring no way one can procced with process of the confirmation incorporated with KITAB and HIKMA revealed already.. Yes. Nasr here is DEFEND.. not defend the Malak messenger, but DEFEND what is confirmed.. 'IT' is in the end Al Quran that contain basically 'Kitab and Hikma' i.e. ordainments and wisdom
..
well, it is not important who this Malak Messenger is.. but for me, I strongly believe it is Michael, and it is not a name for me...
The only place Michael appears is read below

2:97 State! "Whoever became an enemy to Restoring One, as verily he originated it upon your thought by the Divine permission, confirming what manifests its partiality, and guidance, and tidings to the concurred ones.
2:98 Whoever became an enemy to the Divine and His Executors and His Dispatchers, and Restoring One and Authorizing One, then verily, the Divine is an enemy to the rejecting ones.

Gibreal = Restoring one (always restored communications of Allah to every prophetic messengers)
Micheal = Authorizing one (always authorized the Divine communications to every prophetic messengers during their life time)
It is not fair enough Gibreal confirm what he revealed with permission of Allah.. Always better confirm by another not cus the former would to injustice, but always better with another that is kind of assurance.. Allah is so wise..

Injeel can confirm Torah, and Quran can confirm both but not human messenger.. No human can ever confirm the Divine words.. get that right.. Humans only receive confirmation from Allah through angelic messengers as they in the first place received messages from angelic messengers and still human messengers did not confirm, but the message i.e. Injeel or Quran confirmed on its own.

[shukri]

My dear Fusion,

My friend @jkhan is super allergic to the word "Maybe."
Don't take it the wrong way!

[shukri]

Fitna is not TRIAL or DISTURB... FITNA is TEMPTATION.. 'temptation is a strong urge or desire to do something, especially something wrong.'
Meanwhile Quranically 'Balau' is TRIAL i.e. a trial is a difficult test or challenge intended to strengthen or improve..

Choose the right words from Al Quran, you can do only if you depend on Allah..

What you said is very true
We should be sincere and depend on Allah as you do!

AND this ultimate guidance in the Quran i.e. verse 39:18 is no more functioning for you!
You are the chosen one, my dear!

39:18 They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom God has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.

Thank you.

[shukri]

Indeed the Quran Messenger is subjected to CONCUR in the malak messenger.. without concurring no way one can procced with process of the confirmation incorporated with KITAB and HIKMA revealed already.. Yes. Nasr here is DEFEND.. not defend the Malak messenger, but DEFEND what is confirmed.. 'IT' is in the end Al Quran that contain basically 'Kitab and Hikma' i.e. ordainments and wisdom

See the Quran Corpus below!

The words "لَتُؤمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنصُرُنَّهُ" are translated as "you must believe in him and you must help him"
NOT "defend what is confirmed" as you said!
Has the Quran Corpus made a mistake?

Quran Corpus:
|وإذ - And when| أخذ - took| الله - Allah| ميثاق - covenant| النبيين - (of) the Prophets,| لما - "Certainly, whatever| آتيتكم - I (have) given you| من - of| كتاب - (the) Book| وحكمة - and wisdom| ثم - then| جاءكم - comes to you| رسول - a Messenger| مصدق - confirming| لما - that which| معكم - (is) with you,| لتؤمنن - you must believe| به - in him| ولتنصرنه - and you must help him."| قال - He said,| أأقررتم - "Do you affirm| وأخذتم - and take| على - on| ذلكم - that (condition)| إصري - My Covenant?"| قالوا - They said,| أقررنا - "We affirm."| قال - He said,| فاشهدوا - "Then bear witness,| وأنا - and I (am)| معكم - with you| من - among| الشاهدين - the witnesses."|

Note:
This is my last post on this thread
Since there is a gap between us in translating/understanding the Quran verses
It seems pointless for us to continue, I suppose!

Anyway, thanks for this interesting conversation with you, my dear!
So long!

[jkhan]

I can only engage in conversations or debate if they hang around until either side brings the clarity.. I have noticed this habit in you throughout your conversations ... it seems a natural weak habit.

Some in this forum post a reply and never return. Others ask questions and deliberately do not respond with arrogance. And some leave the discussion as soon as things get heated. After all, it is still a forum..

--
for the info of anyone...

Never leave the context of the verse. 39:18 is strongly connected to the dependents (Ebadi) mentioned in 39:17.. and that's why 39:18 starts with 'Allazeena'.. It's talking about those pure dependents and who they are and what type of ebadi/dependents.. Let's see from 39:18.. Some are thinking they are those in the verse.. lol..

39:17 Yet the ones who turned away from the negativities lest they depend on them, thus substituted into the Divine; for them the information, so inform dependents.
39:18 The ones who are heeding the statement, then are abiding by its impartiality; such are the ones whom the Divine guided them, thus, such are those, they are the core of intellects.