Let's delve deep Rashad Khalifa's messenger claim... be honest

[Fusion]

Fair point about the maybes. But I used them deliberately.

Jkhan clearly argues that the verse speaks directly to prophets commanding them to support a future messenger and which prophets were alive during Rashad's time to do so? Based on this as per my understanding he concludes the messenger in 3:81 is not a human but an angel who confirms during each prophet's lifetime.

Good Logic says the covenant happened in the realm of souls not worldly time and that belief could still apply spiritually. Two very different interpretations of the same verse both rooted in the Quran and I want to believe that  both aiming to be honest in their understanding of the verse.

Therefore. I see both sides quoting 3:81 and yet reaching opposite conclusions. One side sees it as proof of Rashad's messengership while the other says it has nothing to do with a human after the prophets. A third group says it refers to the Prophet Muhammad.

But if something as serious as a divine messenger after the prophets can be interpreted in three completely different ways by sincere readers of the same Quran then maybe the test is not just in identifying the messenger. Maybe the test is also in how we handle ambiguity without forcing a certainty the Quran itself did not enforce by name.

[jkhan]

Your response is still kind of maybes.. lol. just relax.. But your response is like, come on guys calm down.. That's good for some other topic.. There is a burning issue amongst the concurring ones.. I believe GL is concurring one (unless I am brainwashed), but you should remember Allah states 'most on earth do not believe in Allah except ascribing to Him.' This can be applied by taking someone as a messenger of Allah cus ascribing comes directly by following what Allah never commanded.. Unless GL is right.. I don't involve Shukri here cus he is not like GL, as his belief itself initiated with RK, I hope not GL's as far as I got him, unless he clarifies like Shukri.. If RK was a liar and a false messenger, then Shukri has found faith in Allah through false agents and false claims. That's not real belief.
When there is burning issue of this magnitude where people are dragged to ASCRIBE to Allah, we can't use maybes and calming answers.. The solution needs to be addressed within Al Quran, and that's what I am trying with honesty.. If I get a fair and solid argument from these two or any other against my claim, I could possibly think of it... But No, they are not convinced at all, they have not explored thoroughly with the verses as they are silent on my questions on verses but depended on RK overwhelmingly and his numeric pattern and believed considering it is fact.. Yes some of those patterns are there.. But where is consistency? who can deny numbers but is he a messenger for this? why? Just remove two verses and claim messenger to the entire earth? So rest of the Quran is perfect.. so these two verses are the most important verses in the Quran so guidance is based on these verses to send a messenger and confirm or rather remove them? lol
I don't know to which group you belong i.e. 3:81 is genuinely a Malak Messenger, or it is RK or it is Mohamed (Mohamed is impossible since 33:7 Mohamed is included in the covenant and the verse did not state a messenger to come after YOU. Unless you state 3:81 Mohamed is not included).. whatever is your take, would you say 'What did Allah intend by this allegory' after reading complete chapter 74? Or would you increase faith after reading the complete chapter and based on what? So simple question... lol
Hey everyone, which messenger has ever confirmed a previous book.. I mean a messenger, the person not the scripture he brought... Scripture confirms another scripture and that's the pattern cus every scripture is confirmed by a malak messenger.. what authority man has to confirm the Divine book? How irrational claim it is even to hear? So alleged 1400 years the Quran is not confirmed? So immediate recipients of Al Quran of prophet Mohamed, they never knew that they were reading a confirmed book, cus it was never confirmed by the messenger that is mentioned in 3:81 since he never arrived? Or are these trying to state it was not corrupted then, so not needed to confirm, now it is corrupted so came another human messenger to confirm it. So confirmation is for the purpose of corruption took place? Is it even written in 3:81 that a messenger comes to confirm cus it will be corrupted? Remember I am addressing only prophet Mohamed, I did not even touch other prophets who involved in the covenant and their books.. What support and belief all these prophets need to give, just say to RK, hey remove last two verses from chapter 9? Mohamed is enough to say that, what will rest of the prophet say to RK ? That's a nice and easy support and for this a covenant took place somewhere in heaven while they were not even born as humans.. lol
Messenger (be it human or malak) is technically a person who is placed the real and tangible message of Allah. They carry them.. And what message RK has from Allah? RK removed a couple of messages from Al Quran? So you call a messenger of Allah to remove a couple of messages from Al Quran also? So, where is the message to call him a messenger? A messenger without message. He removed couple verses with his theory that he worked out and given the support of hadith of Ali alleged son in law of Mohamed.

But if it is taken as Malak Messenger, then this confirmation Malak Messenger directly comes from Allah's command with a message how to and what to do with the existing Kitab and Hikma (for instance how to order every chapter etc and to check all what is written is clear as it was revealed and is it clear in Arabic writing, and verses are properly separated etc). So this Malak messenger has a message prior to landing on the earth and accordingly he will act and the human messenger has to trust in him as he covenanted so that he concur in the confirmation and defend it at the end of the process and not literally in the Malak but in what was confirmed. Thus reveal to people as the final scripture and completed.. cus people can still claim with some message/s that this is from the messenger Mohamed, while it is not. That's why finalization is must.. to let know people it is over.. and that's why 3:82 states what it states.. even 3:83 states ... 'So, is it beyond the Divine commitment they desire ....." ... well all clear, for me to surrender object my views, I am honest, I will accept.. Remember I believed in RK numeric pattern once, though I accepted him not as a messenger.. cus I am not partial and I don't want to remain in falsehood... I am a researcher and depend on Allah alone.. So guys, my door is not closed for you to give your strong answer.. I will in sha Allah, always scrutinize.. But I won't entertain hypocritical answers..

[Fusion]

Thanks Jkhan your points are clear.

To be direct I am not defending Rashad or trying to cool things down. My focus is on the Quran itself and how people are interpreting it.

You are right that this is a serious issue. If someone wrongly attributes something to God that is dangerous. But I also see a danger on the other side making a major theological claim from a verse like 3:81 that has more than one sincere reading. You say it points to a Malak Messenger. Some say it refers to Muhammad. Others say it refers to a future human. Good Logic adds a different angle about souls and a covenant before time. These are not random guesses. They are all based on analysis and Quranic context. The fact that there is still debate shows the verse is not decisive enough to settle such a claim.

When 74:31 is mentioned the question is are peopl today really saying "what did God mean by this allegory" because of the code? Or was that reaction part of the original setting of the verse? If the code is a trial then it makes sense people respond in different ways some accept it, some reject it, some ignore it....

Also I remember that in the past even you gave serious thought to the idea that some verses might not belong to the Quran as Rashad claimed. You were not fully convinced but you explored it deeply. That shows you were open to questioning and thinking. For those who want to read it, here is your old post:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611605.msg436361#msg436361

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612659.msg444195#msg444195


That is my position. I am not hiding behind maybes. I just see two sides both trying to be honest and the truth is not as black and white as some want it to be.

Thanks again. I will keep thinking and reading with an open mind.

[good logic]

How can we tell someone is sincere?Do we ever have evidence of this?

Every single human on earth will have to wrestle with doubt about the unseen. How can we tap into knowledge beyond our capabilities without being taught by some knowledgeable Being?

Some pay attention more to the realities of this life and think that we can explain the unseen-GOD s realm -by using our faculties/logic only. How can we even prove something that we cannot see/perceive/other dimensions...?

So we rely on the one who has the perfect knowledge of everything to tell us about everything/teach us up to our limits ,if we believe in such a being/creator.
And we will have to believe what He says if we are certain about His message.

This is where most of the differences arise. This is where the test comes in ,the role of human messengers and GOD s revelations play their part.

Still ,our freedom of choice dictates whether we take or leave things we check.

GOD only sends messengers to direct to His message.  Then the message is the most important thing to lead our life with. every other diversion is part of the test.
If the individual responds to the message and says I hear and obey GOD, then the messenger has no other role after that.
So what is  the issue about human messengers if one is certain about GOD s message and follows only GOD Alone?

Do we get the message folks?
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

[jkhan]

Thanks Jkhan your points are clear.

To be direct I am not defending Rashad or trying to cool things down. My focus is on the Quran itself and how people are interpreting it.

You are right that this is a serious issue. If someone wrongly attributes something to God that is dangerous. But I also see a danger on the other side making a major theological claim from a verse like 3:81 that has more than one sincere reading. You say it points to a Malak Messenger. Some say it refers to Muhammad. Others say it refers to a future human. Good Logic adds a different angle about souls and a covenant before time. These are not random guesses. They are all based on analysis and Quranic context. The fact that there is still debate shows the verse is not decisive enough to settle such a claim.

When 74:31 is mentioned the question is are peopl today really saying "what did God mean by this allegory" because of the code? Or was that reaction part of the original setting of the verse? If the code is a trial then it makes sense people respond in different ways some accept it, some reject it, some ignore it....

Also I remember that in the past even you gave serious thought to the idea that some verses might not belong to the Quran as Rashad claimed. You were not fully convinced but you explored it deeply. That shows you were open to questioning and thinking. For those who want to read it, here is your old post:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611605.msg436361#msg436361

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612659.msg444195#msg444195


That is my position. I am not hiding behind maybes. I just see two sides both trying to be honest and the truth is not as black and white as some want it to be.

Thanks again. I will keep thinking and reading with an open mind.

It's okay... wherever you stand on this issue, you are accountable..
But reflect.. you have read the entire chapter 74 in arabic or whatever translations you always refer.. Have you come across after reading this chapter to increase faith or ask 'what did Allah intend by this allegory' ... up to you.. in case you experienced any sort of feeling after reading this chapter what the verse 74:31 states, let us know, if you are willing.. But the thread's main point delving deep to find RK's claim..

[jkhan]

How can we tell someone is sincere?Do we ever have evidence of this?

Every single human on earth will have to wrestle with doubt about the unseen. How can we tap into knowledge beyond our capabilities without being taught by some knowledgeable Being?

Some pay attention more to the realities of this life and think that we can explain the unseen-GOD s realm -by using our faculties/logic only. How can we even prove something that we cannot see/perceive/other dimensions...?

So we rely on the one who has the perfect knowledge of everything to tell us about everything/teach us up to our limits ,if we believe in such a being/creator.
And we will have to believe what He says if we are certain about His message.

This is where most of the differences arise. This is where the test comes in ,the role of human messengers and GOD s revelations play their part.

Still ,our freedom of choice dictates whether we take or leave things we check.

GOD only sends messengers to direct to His message.  Then the message is the most important thing to lead our life with. every other diversion is part of the test.
If the individual responds to the message and says I hear and obey GOD, then the messenger has no other role after that.
So what is  the issue about human messengers if one is certain about GOD s message and follows only GOD Alone?

Do we get the message folks?
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

That's kind of emotions..
Can you pls tell us what is the message placed on RK? 
Are messages of Allah directly placed without needing to work out and bring a message. Then it is not a message from Allah.  RK used computer and his crew  to work out his theory and he found out something.. You call this message of Allah. message of Allah is needless to unearth.. If I or you unearth something, it means we explore the message already revealed.. I don't see message in RK to claim as Messenger of Allah..  let me add more.. Discovery is a message.. yes.. but the one who discovered or unearthed doesn't qualify as Messenger of Allah. That's self assertion and nothing else..

[Fusion]

How can we tell someone is sincere?Do we ever have evidence of this?

Every single human on earth will have to wrestle with doubt about the unseen. How can we tap into knowledge beyond our capabilities without being taught by some knowledgeable Being?

Some pay attention more to the realities of this life and think that we can explain the unseen-GOD s realm -by using our faculties/logic only. How can we even prove something that we cannot see/perceive/other dimensions...?

So we rely on the one who has the perfect knowledge of everything to tell us about everything/teach us up to our limits ,if we believe in such a being/creator.
And we will have to believe what He says if we are certain about His message.

This is where most of the differences arise. This is where the test comes in ,the role of human messengers and GOD s revelations play their part.

Still ,our freedom of choice dictates whether we take or leave things we check.

GOD only sends messengers to direct to His message.  Then the message is the most important thing to lead our life with. every other diversion is part of the test.
If the individual responds to the message and says I hear and obey GOD, then the messenger has no other role after that.
So what is  the issue about human messengers if one is certain about GOD s message and follows only GOD Alone?

Do we get the message folks?
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Good Logic you raised another important angle in this ongoing discussion and it is something I have reflected on quite a lot. I may not necessarily agree with every part of your interpretation but I do think to share my take.

Quran 2:3 speaks about those who believe in the unseen. This belief is not blind. It is rooted in the way we were created as human beings. Allah gave us the ability to reach conclusions without directly seeing everything. That is what separates humans from animals. Our test is based on our capacity to reflect think and reason. If we were not given this ability to move from what is visible to what is not visible then there would be no basis for such a test. But we have been given it.
All human knowledge works this way. Science philosophy and even personal insight come from observing the seen and using reason to reach what is not seen. That is why belief in the unseen is not unnatural. It fits our design. It fits our nature. Allah said He does not burden any soul beyond its capacity (2:286) and He created the religion aligned with our nature. So when the Quran asks us to believe in the unseen it is not asking for something unreasonable. It is asking us to use the very capacity we were built with.

These truths that Allah placed in us are not just external. They also exist within. The Quran says Allah took a covenant from humanity and placed the recognition of Him in our very soul.[7:172] He also says He inspired within every soul the sense of right and wrong. But these internal truths stay dormant unless something awakens them. If they remain inside they cannot be used in reasoning or shared understanding. They remain personal feelings not conscious truths.

For any truth to become a basis for reasoning it has to be triggered into awareness. And this is where prophets come in. Their job is not to insert something alien. It is to awaken what is already there. When that happens the inner and outer align and that becomes the ground for faith and for reasoning.

So yes we believe in the unseen but not through blind trust. We believe because our minds and our fitrah are both designed to carry us there. The prophets are sent to remind us of what we already carry deep inside.

Belief in God and His Book is essential but that belief begins with the very tools He gave us  our reason our nature and our ability to recognize the truth when it is reminded to us and that is exactly what we are doing in this thread regarding Rashad using the Quran as our source and reasoning as our tool.

[Fusion]

It's okay... wherever you stand on this issue, you are accountable..
But reflect.. you have read the entire chapter 74 in arabic or whatever translations you always refer.. Have you come across after reading this chapter to increase faith or ask 'what did Allah intend by this allegory' ... up to you.. in case you experienced any sort of feeling after reading this chapter what the verse 74:31 states, let us know, if you are willing.. But the thread's main point delving deep to find RK's claim..

For me verse 31 is part of a wider style the Quran uses where symbolic language and parables are meant to spark reflection not literal analysis. The number nineteen here is mentioned only to illustrate how different people will respond when they come across such things in the Quran. Some will raise objections and get confused while others those who grasp the deeper purpose of the message will find their conviction grow stronger. Even sincere believers with limited knowledge will feel more firm in faith while those who doubt the Book's divine origin will keep questioning, not because the verse lacks meaning but because they miss the intent behind such parables.

I am afraid to me the verse 31 is not laying out a code or mathematical doctrine. It is highlighting how a simple symbol can become a test. The point is not the number itself but the way it divides people based on their inner state some are humbled and guided others get distracted.

Thats how I read this verse The number is just a spark and the real test is how we respond to it.

[jkhan]

For me verse 31 is part of a wider style the Quran uses where symbolic language and parables are meant to spark reflection not literal analysis. The number nineteen here is mentioned only to illustrate how different people will respond when they come across such things in the Quran. Some will raise objections and get confused while others those who grasp the deeper purpose of the message will find their conviction grow stronger. Even sincere believers with limited knowledge will feel more firm in faith while those who doubt the Book's divine origin will keep questioning, not because the verse lacks meaning but because they miss the intent behind such parables.

I am afraid to me the verse 31 is not laying out a code or mathematical doctrine. It is highlighting how a simple symbol can become a test. The point is not the number itself but the way it divides people based on their inner state some are humbled and guided others get distracted.

Thats how I read this verse The number is just a spark and the real test is how we respond to it.

Your in-between answer is not giving any firmness to the topic and serves no purpose of the topic.. just relax..
Look, whatever translation or even if one reads directly in Arabic Quran, the matter is clear..

Everything triggered from 'IddathHum'.. people took it as 'Their Number' but I hold the view strongly that it is 'Their Allocation'.. let it be and leave that aside, but keep in mind 'iddathuHum' and it is key.. then whatever mentioned after is in simple black and white language.. No ambiguity at all except word trial.. So let's read someone's translation..
74:31 Sahih int't " .... And We have not made their number (iddathHum) except as a trial for those who disbelieve - that those who were given the Scripture will be convinced and those who have believed will increase in faith and those who were given the Scripture and the believers will not doubt and that those in whose hearts is hypocrisy and the disbelievers will say, "What does Allah intend by this as an example?" Thus does Allah leave astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. ...

So let me go according to the translation above..
Five key points..
1.. Trial - Disbelievers
2. Convince - People of the book
3.. Increase faith.. - Believers
4.. No Doubt – (2 and 3)
5.. what did Allah intend by this allegory (1 and hypocrites)

For all the above actions to take place, the key triggering word is 'IDDATHUM'... and the Iddathum is taken as preceding verse where it is stated 'Alaiha Thisat Ashara' and translated as 'over it is nineteen'..

Now, let's hope RK never discovered this 19 pattern... So, still these 5 factors should take place and these are not assumptions but clear words of Allah, and they take place within such mentioned groups.. According to RK followers and their claim, it is only possible to take place once RK discovered 19 pattern..
Now read my translations of chapter 74 by scrolling above with patience...

For me also 'IDDATHUM' is the triggering point..  But Iddathum is not their number but it is 'Thei ALLOCATION', or you can take as 'preparation' and it is not referring to the preceding verse 74:30 only, but it refers to all the Allocations mentioned in all preceding verses connected with REJECTORS and their suffering.. They are hefty allocations, and while reading, shivering bodies.. Thus it is a tremendous warning, through which group (2 and 3) transition towards betterment. Cus they don't want to fall into that suffering allegorically stated.. but group 1 and 5 neglect arouse temptation and lead them to ask what they ask ironically..

Now, anyone tell me, do you need RK 19 pattern to understand this verse, or the entire chapter, for that matter?

[shukri]

Messenger (be it human or malak) is technically a person who is placed the real and tangible message of Allah. They carry them.. And what message RK has from Allah? RK removed a couple of messages from Al Quran? So you call a messenger of Allah to remove a couple of messages from Al Quran also? So, where is the message to call him a messenger? A messenger without message. He removed couple verses with his theory that he worked out and given the support of hadith of Ali alleged son in law of Mohamed.

You are wrong!
Just for your info!

A list of the principal duties of God's Messenger of the Covenant:

Unveil and proclaim the Quran's mathematical miracle
Expose and remove the two false verses 9:128-129 from the Quran
Explain the purpose of our lives; why we are here
Proclaim one religion for all the people, and point out and purge away all the corruptions afflicting Judaism, Christianity, and Islam
Proclaim that Zakat (obligatory charity) is a prerequisite for redemption (7:156), and explain the correct method of observing Zakat
Unveil the end of the world
Proclaim that those who die before the age of 40 go to Heaven
Explain Jesus' death
Explain the Quran's delivery to, then through Muhammad
Announce that Muhammad wrote God's revelations (the Quran) with his own hand
Explain why most believers in God do not make it to Heaven
Proclaim that God never ordered Abraham to kill his son
Proclaim the secret of perfect happiness
Establish a criminal justice system

Thank you.