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Forensic Analysis of Qur'an

Started by Mazhar, July 21, 2024, 10:41:31 AM

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centi50

Salam to all,

What are your thoughts on this? It is related to translation. It is from Arab Christian and an evangelical Christian and Islam critic Dr. Jay Smith

https://youtu.be/1dQJPkau-xY

Mazhar

Quote from: centi50 on September 30, 2024, 01:07:29 PMSalam to all,

What are your thoughts on this? It is related to translation. It is from Arab Christian and an evangelical Christian and Islam critic Dr. Jay Smith

https://youtu.be/1dQJPkau-xY

Firstly he talked about: ٱلْأَسْبَاطِ;    ٱلْأَسْبَاطَ.

This is used four times; 3 genitive and 1 accusative. 

At all four places it begins with the name of the Ancestor إِبْرَٟهِيـمَ alahisalam. The last name at all four places is يَعْقُوبَ alahisalam. يَعْقُوبَ alahisalam is the grandson of إِبْرَٟهِيـمَ alahisalam.

Thus ٱلْأَسْبَاطِ a plural definite noun relates to يَعْقُوبَ alahisalam whose other name is: Israel and the community Jews are called Children of Israel.

Its Root is: س ب ط
Ibn Faris [died 1005] stated:

(مقاييس اللغة)

السين والباء والطاء أصلٌ يدلُّ على امتداد شيء، ً

That it leads to the perception of extension, prolongation of a thing.

Lane's Lexicon: A tribe of the Jews: pl. أَسْبَاطٌ: (M, Msb, K:) سِبْطٌ (M) and أَسْبَاطٌ (S, Msb) in relation to the Jews, (M, Msb,) or [rather] the Children of Israel, (S,) being like قَبِيلَةٌ (M) and قَبَائِلُ (S, Msb) in relation to the Arabs: (S, M, Msb:) and the former are thus called to distinguish them from the children of Ishmael.
https://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(631).htm

Qur'an itself is best lexicon for its words. Fifth time use further explains the meanings that 12 sons of يَعْقُوبَ alahisalam had become twelve generations/tribes with different parental root.

وَ قَطَّعْنَٟهُـمُ ٱثْنَتَىْ عَشْـرَةَ أَسْبَاطًا أُمَمًۭاۚ

So the talk is superfluous.     
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

good logic

Peace centi50

So what is the problem ? Are not most traditional translations problematic?
Why worry about someone finding traditional Islam wrong if you do not follow their religion?

The irony is that those making the criticism have the same or worse approach towards Qoran. It is the kettle calling the pot black.

So you have a problem with Qoran too brother?

For example this verse is simple and straight forward:
قولوا ءامَنّا بِاللَّهِ وَما أُنزِلَ إِلَينا وَما أُنزِلَ إِلىٰ إِبرٰهـۧمَ وَإِسمٰعيلَ وَإِسحٰقَ وَيَعقوبَ وَالأَسباطِ وَما أوتِىَ موسىٰ وَعيسىٰ وَما أوتِىَ النَّبِيّونَ مِن رَبِّهِم لا نُفَرِّقُ بَينَ أَحَدٍ مِنهُم وَنَحنُ لَهُ مُسلِمونَ

Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the "Patriarchs- Jacob s sons that are mentioned in the time of Moses as the twelve tribes of Israel-
This verse is saying there was no religions of Judaism or Christianity with Abraham to Jesus apart from "true Islam" i.e GOD s religion is only "Islam-submission to Him Alone- GOD has not sent different religions .

"Asbat" are the leaders/patriarchs of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Elesewhere in Qoran we read:
"Wa Kattahnahum Ithnatay Ashrata "Asbatan"  Un=mama." They were divided into the 12 tribes of Israel.

There are many sites making a mockery of criticising Traditional Islam and with it Qoran without study or context, just assumptions and ignorance of the book itself and using its false interpretations by the Muslim scholars and their followers.

Here is another example of pretending they understand Arabic better that anyone else and falling into their own trap:
سُبحٰنَ الَّذى أَسرىٰ بِعَبدِهِ لَيلًا مِنَ المَسجِدِ الحَرامِ إِلَى المَسجِدِ الأَقصَا الَّذى بٰرَكنا حَولَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِن ءايٰتِنا إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّميعُ البَصيرُ

They say GOD is glorifying Himself and  "Innahu" stands for "Abdahu" making the Messenger all hearing and all seeing. i.e an idol. They add the book says it explains itself yet has  many issues/ contradictions.

The verse, to me is saying:
Most glorified is the One who summoned His servant at night, from Al Masjid Al Haram to Al Masjid Al Aqsa which is  blessed, to show him some of our signs. He- GOD- is the Hearer, the Seer.

Two subjects here, GOD and the servant. From the context  "Innahu stands for one of them only-GOD-.
If we also look elsewhere in Qoran the servant is the one who received Qoran through Gabriel All at once- soul- then slowly released into his memory over a period of time for him to pass it on.

When Qoran is pondered as a whole and one uses it as a tool to compare and analyse its verses ,we find that GOD has used many verses to explain others or give similar words that need context for interpretation.

Let me give you this similar verse with two subjects issue :(Surah Qasas, Moses  helping the Hebrew man
and killing the Egyptian)

وَدَخَلَ المَدينَةَ عَلىٰ حينِ غَفلَةٍ مِن أَهلِها فَوَجَدَ فيها رَجُلَينِ يَقتَتِلانِ هٰذا مِن شيعَتِهِ وَهٰذا مِن عَدُوِّهِ فَاستَغٰثَهُ الَّذى مِن شيعَتِهِ عَلَى الَّذى مِن عَدُوِّهِ فَوَكَزَهُ موسىٰ فَقَضىٰ عَلَيهِ قالَ هٰذا مِن عَمَلِ الشَّيطٰنِ إِنَّهُ عَدُوٌّ مُضِلٌّ مُبينٌ

Here "Fawakasahu Mussa Fagada Alaih" from the context it can only stand for the Egyptian:

Once he entered the city unexpectedly, without being recognized by the people. He found two men fighting; one was from his people, and the other was from his enemies. The one from his people called on him for help against his enemy. Moses punched him, killing him. He said, "This is the work of the devil; he is a real enemy, and a profound misleader."

Brother,it is futile to try and answer people with made up minds and agendas,
Study Qoran and see what you can make of it yourself. others can make /do with Qoran whatever they wish to do with it.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28[/url]

centi50

Quote from: Mazhar on September 30, 2024, 01:58:28 PMFirstly he talked about: ٱلْأَسْبَاطِ;    ٱلْأَسْبَاطَ.

This is used four times; 3 genitive and 1 accusative. 

At all four places it begins with the name of the Ancestor إِبْرَٟهِيـمَ alahisalam. The last name at all four places is يَعْقُوبَ alahisalam. يَعْقُوبَ alahisalam is the grandson of إِبْرَٟهِيـمَ alahisalam.

Thus ٱلْأَسْبَاطِ, a plural definite noun, relates to يَعْقُوبَ alahisalam, whose other name is Israel, and the community Jews are called Children of Israel.

Its Root is: س ب ط
Ibn Faris [died 1005] stated:

(مقاييس اللغة)

السين والباء والطاء أصلٌ يدلُّ على امتداد شيء، ً

It leads to the perception of the extension or prolongation of a thing.

Lane's Lexicon: A tribe of the Jews: pl. أَسْبَاطٌ: (M, Msb, K:) سِبْطٌ (M) and أَسْبَاطٌ (S, Msb) in relation to the Jews, (M, Msb,) or [rather] the Children of Israel, (S,) being like قَبِيلَةٌ (M) and قَبَائِلُ (S, Msb) in relation to the Arabs: (S, M, Msb:) and the former are thus called to distinguish them from the children of Ishmael.
https://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(631).htm

The Qur'an itself is the best lexicon for its words. Fifth-time use further explains the meaning that 12 sons of يَعْقُوبَ alahisalam had become twelve generations/tribes with different parental roots.

وَ قَطَّعْنَٟهُـمُ ٱثْنَتَىْ عَشْـرَةَ أَسْبَاطًا أُمَمًۭاۚ

So the talk is superfluous.     


Quote from: good logic on September 30, 2024, 02:55:08 PMPeace centi50

So what is the problem? Are not most traditional translations problematic?
Why worry about someone finding traditional Islam wrong if you do not follow their religion?

The irony is that those making the criticism have the same or worse approach towards Qoran. It is the kettle calling the pot black.

So you have a problem with Qoran, too, brother?

For example this verse is simple and straight forward:
قولوا ءامَنّا بِاللَّهِ وَما أُنزِلَ إِلَينا وَما أُنزِلَ إِلىٰ إِبرٰهـۧمَ وَإِسمٰعيلَ وَإِسحٰقَ وَيَعقوبَ وَالأَسباطِ وَما أوتِىَ موسىٰ وَعيسىٰ وَما أوتِىَ النَّبِيّونَ مِن رَبِّهِم لا نُفَرِّقُ بَينَ أَحَدٍ مِنهُم وَنَحنُ لَهُ مُسلِمونَ

Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the "Patriarchs- Jacob's sons that are mentioned in the time of Moses as the twelve tribes of Israel-
This verse is saying there were no religions of Judaism or Christianity with Abraham to Jesus apart from "true Islam", i.e. GOD's religion is only "Islam-submission to Him Alone- GOD has not sent different religions.

"Asbat" are the leaders/patriarchs of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Elsewhere in Qoran, we read:
"Wa Kattahnahum Ithnatay Ashrata "Asbatan"  Un=mama." They were divided into the 12 tribes of Israel.

Many sites are making a mockery of criticising Traditional Islam an,d with i,t Qoran without study or context, just assumptions and ignorance of the book itself and using its false interpretations by the Muslim scholars and their followers.

Here is another example of pretending they understand Arabic better that anyone else and falling into their own trap:
سُبحٰنَ الَّذى أَسرىٰ بِعَبدِهِ لَيلًا مِنَ المَسجِدِ الحَرامِ إِلَى المَسجِدِ الأَقصَا الَّذى بٰرَكنا حَولَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِن ءايٰتِنا إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّميعُ البَصيرُ

They say GOD is glorifying Himself, and  "Innahu" stands for "Abdahu", making the Messenger all-hearing and all-seeing. i.e. an idol. They add the book says it explains itself, yet it has many issues/ contradictions.

The verse, to me, is saying:
Most glorified is the One who summoned His servant at night from Al Masjid Al Haram to Al Masjid Al Aqsa, which is blessed, to show him some of our signs. He- GOD- is the Hearer, the Seer.

Two subjects here, GOD and the servant. From the context, "Innahu stands for one of them only-.
If we also look elsewhere in Qoran the servant is the one who received Qoran through Gabriel All at once- soul- then slowly released into his memory over a period of time for him to pass it on.

When Qoran is pondered as a whole and one uses it as a tool to compare and analyse its verses, we find that GOD has used many verses to explain others or give similar words that need context for interpretation.

Let me give you this similar verse with two subject issues:(Surah Qasas, Moses  helping the Hebrew man
and killing the Egyptians)

وَدَخَلَ المَدينَةَ عَلىٰ حينِ غَفلَةٍ مِن أَهلِها فَوَجَدَ فيها رَجُلَينِ يَقتَتِلانِ هٰذا مِن شيعَتِهِ وَهٰذا مِن عَدُوِّهِ فَاستَغٰثَهُ الَّذى مِن شيعَتِهِ عَلَى الَّذى مِن عَدُوِّهِ فَوَكَزَهُ موسىٰ فَقَضىٰ عَلَيهِ قالَ هٰذا مِن عَمَلِ الشَّيطٰنِ إِنَّهُ عَدُوٌّ مُضِلٌّ مُبينٌ

Here "Fawakasahu Mussa Fagada Alaih" from the context it can only stand for the Egyptian:

Once he entered the city unexpectedly, without being recognized by the people. He found two men fighting; one was from his people, and the other was from his enemies. The one from his people called on him for help against his enemy. Moses punched him, killing him. He said, "This is the work of the devil; he is a real enemy and a profound misleader."

Brother, it is futile to try and answer people with made-up minds and agendas,
Study Qoran and see what you can make of it yourself. Others can make /do with Qoran whatever they wish to do with it.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
mentions


Salam bro logic,

I don't have a problem with the Quran. I posted this only for learning and to have answers when someone can point out things like this to me.

I noticed the Arab Christians's tendency to work so hard to criticize the Quran.

God bless

Bajram Hoxhaj

Quote from: centi50 on September 30, 2024, 01:07:29 PMSalam to all,

What are your thoughts on this? It is related to translation. It is from Arab Christian and an evangelical Christian and Islam critic Dr. Jay Smith

https://youtu.be/1dQJPkau-xY

Salaam,

2:136 2:140 3:84 4:163 وَالْأَسْبَاطَ

7:160 and sever (divide) we them twelve أَسْبَاطًا 'Asbāţāan/Nations of أُمَمًا 'Umamāan/Communities of


In classical Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan al-Arab (لسان العرب) by Ibn Manzur, Taj al-Arus (تاج العروس) by al-Zabidi, and Al-Qamus al-Muhit (القاموس المحيط) by Al-Fayruzabadi, the term "الأسباط" primarily refers to the twelve tribes of Israel (descendants of Jacob's sons), although it can also refer to descendants through both sons and daughters in a broader sense of lineage.

56:9 الْمَشْأَمَةِ the left (misfortune/negativity) non-literal meaning (see 3:7)

21:92 indeed this community yours community single (unified)

17:31 and not thou slay ye of 'Awlādakum/offspring yours fright أملق pauperism


The word أملق in Arabic (based on the above context) means 'to be poor' or impoverished. In some contexts, it can imply 'to stray' or 'to deviate' from a path (which is clearly not the case in this context).

It is true that many cultures prefer having sons over daughters, which pagans have deified.

18:46 the wealth وَالْبَنُونَ and the sons being adornment the life the world
37:149 so ask them does to lord your the daughters and for them الْبَنُونَ the sons being
52:39 or for Him the daughters and for you الْبَنُونَ the sons being

6:100 ... and attribute they of to Him بَنِينَ sons وَبَنَاتٍ and daughters in other than knowledge ...
6:101 ... how being to Him وَلَدٌ (walad/offspring)
does not imply 'son' (see above; otherwise, it allows for daughters).