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2:23-24 give your opinions

Started by jkhan, July 07, 2024, 01:22:14 AM

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jkhan

Quote from: shukri on July 06, 2024, 09:58:18 AMYes, you can if you wish
Just start a new thread!
Maybe some users here are interested in participating in it!

Note:
I don't know what criteria they used to produce "The True Furqan", the book that claimed to be fulfillment of the challenge of Quran to produce a book similar to Quran (see # Reply 172)
AND how the muslim world reacted to this claim!

Thank you.


https://mamnoe.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/the-true-furqan-alforghan-alhagh.pdf

So... No need for anyone to produce another book, let's see what the book they have already produced has to say..

After all, they can produce not only a chapter but an entire book full of words and verses..

Now, would you accept that they COULD do it or how do you deny or invalidate what they have invented... It is clear, that these words are of humans... so how would you differentiate the words of Allah ...

How would you see 'Al Quran' (words of Allah) with 'The True Al Furqan' (words of humans)?

As Allah states in clear words Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.... 4:82
So, we clearly know that the book called 'The True Al Furqan' is from Human.. So, would you find contradictions?

Glad to hear your comments..

thank you...

shukri

A very good thread for anti Code 19! :peace: 
But I personally don't want to make any comment on this book
Since it is written and claims based on subjective matters
Not based on objective/absolute criterion such as code 19.

But in the thread: https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612657.msg444304#msg444304
I saw a suggestion from Bro Fusion like this:

Quote from: Fusion on June 30, 2024, 02:25:41 AMContext of the Challenge:
The challenge is to produce the likes of the Quran in terms of its linguistic, literary, and spiritual content, which encompasses its profound guidance, laws, stories, and prophecies. This challenge highlights the miraculous nature of the Quran as a divine revelation.


So, I hope to hear something from him if he comes across this thread!

Thank you.
"My Lord, pardon me if I have forgotten or erred"

jkhan

Quote from: shukri on July 07, 2024, 02:45:40 AMA very good thread for anti Code 19! :peace: 
But I personally don't want to make any comment on this book
Since it is written and claims based on subjective matters
Not based on objective/absolute criterion such as code 19.

But in the thread: https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612657.msg444304#msg444304
I saw a suggestion from Bro Fusion like this:

So, I hope to hear something from him if he comes across this thread!

Thank you.

Just a gentle reminder... I don't know how long this topic going to be discussed or even debated, but to reiterate that I didn't open this topic to highlight numeric structure but to bring contradictions which Allah states 'if it is from other than Allah'

Thank you, brother.. You can bring your opinion, and why not.. We all learning..

jkhan

I found an interesting verse and would like to raise a point and ask your opinions... I think Chapter 75 of this book called "The True Al Furqan" targeted traditional Muslims or even true believers and claimed they are Hypocrites.. Okay... but the point is about the verse... How can one on Earth TESTIFY/SHAHADA that 'Jesus the Messiah is a breath from OUR own Spirit' ... i.e. perhaps Jesus is One in Three.. right? But with what evidence one can ever TESTIFY or be a WITNESS to it..
Strangely, the word SHAHADA in the Quran is particular and never placed for any matter in which it won't give the meaning that it deserves... Because no one can be a WITNESS or no one can TESTIFY unless they have evidence in their own eyes..

Below is the concerned verse the Book 'The True Al Furqan'...

75:01 O, you who are hypocrites, yet still claim to be among Our loyal followers; you have TESTIFIED that Jesus the Messiah is a breath from Our own Spirit.

And how can the author of the book use the word TESTIFIED and make the claim of those to be true i.e. They have TESTIFIED and it is mandatory but they as hypocrites changed..
Now I found an interesting verse from the Quran to enlighten...

43:19 And they have made the angels, who are servants of the Most Merciful, females. Did they WITNESS their creation? Their TESTIMONY will be recorded, and they will be questioned.

It is very manifest in this verse what a WITNESS is and what a TESTIMONY is..

Your opinion whether it is a contradiction or it is valid ..

Thanks

shukri

Quote from: jkhan on July 07, 2024, 08:00:34 AMI found an interesting verse and would like to raise a point and ask your opinions... I think Chapter 75 of this book called "The True Al Furqan" targeted traditional Muslims or even true believers and claimed they are Hypocrites.. Okay... but the point is about the verse... How can one on Earth TESTIFY/SHAHADA that 'Jesus the Messiah is a breath from OUR own Spirit' ... i.e. perhaps Jesus is One in Three.. right? But with what evidence one can ever TESTIFY or be a WITNESS to it..
Strangely, the word SHAHADA in the Quran is particular and never placed for any matter in which it won't give the meaning that it deserves... Because no one can be a WITNESS or no one can TESTIFY unless they have evidence in their own eyes..

Below is the concerned verse the Book 'The True Al Furqan'...

75:01 O, you who are hypocrites, yet still claim to be among Our loyal followers; you have TESTIFIED that Jesus the Messiah is a breath from Our own Spirit.

And how can the author of the book use the word TESTIFIED and make the claim of those to be true i.e. They have TESTIFIED and it is mandatory but they as hypocrites changed..
Now I found an interesting verse from the Quran to enlighten...

43:19 And they have made the angels, who are servants of the Most Merciful, females. Did they WITNESS their creation? Their TESTIMONY will be recorded, and they will be questioned.

It is very manifest in this verse what a WITNESS is and what a TESTIMONY is..

Your opinion whether it is a contradiction or it is valid ..

Thanks


I don't know if this posting is directed at me or not

If so, i just repeating my previous answer not to get involved in any discussion
The subjective matter like "contradictions" in "holy book" is depend on perception, intellectual and sincerity

The Quran itself contain a lot of "contradictions" according to non-muslim, for example:
https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/contradictions-and-inconsistencies-in-the-quran/
https://carm.org/islam/contradictions-in-the-quran/

And whatever explanations given will not relieve their stand!
AND the debate will go on and on!

Sorry brother!
Ends.

Thank you.
"My Lord, pardon me if I have forgotten or erred"

jkhan

Quote from: shukri on July 08, 2024, 12:07:02 AMI don't know if this posting is directed at me or not

If so, i just repeating my previous answer not to get involved in any discussion
The subjective matter like "contradictions" in "holy book" is depend on perception, intellectual and sincerity

The Quran itself contain a lot of "contradictions" according to non-muslim, for example:
https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/contradictions-and-inconsistencies-in-the-quran/
https://carm.org/islam/contradictions-in-the-quran/

And whatever explanations given will not relieve their stand!
AND the debate will go on and on!

Sorry brother!
Ends.

Thank you.

Peace.. Hey brother Shukri... You seem dejected.. don't you.. Be brave and active..   :yes
Those links you provided, are claims of disbelievers and instead of understanding the verses in their entirety, they have been misunderstood or twisted or not yet within their reach to grasp.. A murderer doesn't like the truth about his felony.. So, he will have loads of explanations even against glaring shreds of evidence.. But the Court doesn't consist of fools.. So the court will end his claims justly..
But in this temporal world, freedom of speech will not be restricted.. It will continue forever.. One group of people will always be on the side of truth, meanwhile, another group will be against the truth and they all will have something to say in their stance.. The court will not intervene to judge it and close the chapter.. That's the ultimate reality... But, if that is the case, Allah won't state "THEY would find many a contradiction" thus leaving them to be judged by a certain group of people who are on the side of truth..

The question is who is this "THEY" in verse 4:82... For disbelievers, this Quran itself is nothing and they even without reading it would reject and everything is a contradiction for them.. Quran is just words or fabrication or tales of ancient and nothing more for them..

Then who would find contradictions if the Quran consists of such contradictions that don't permit even believers to accept with their conscience? Yes.. It is believers' duty to perceive that there are no contradictory verses in the Quran as Allah claimed, in all aspects; Grammarly, meaningfulness, prophecies, numerology, legitimate science etc.. Let disbelievers state anything... But isn't it the believers' responsibility who in particular possess the high intellectual capacity to verify the verses whether consist of such discrepancies in reality or what they hear is just an intentional conspiracy against verses of Allah to divert utilizing their intellect since they deny the Book being divine..

So, those disbelievers who allegedly found discrepancies in the Quran would forever continue to disagree even if we as believers point out and emphasize their fragile claims with either logic or evidence.. That's obvious as you rightly stated as it is what it should be.. And going after them is a sheer waste of time but as believers, we should have answers within ourselves against those claims with logic and evidence to strengthen our faith in the book.. Isn't it? We just can't deny them vigorously and with anger but we should sit and reflect and should find the truth against their simmering questions not to argue with them but to be convinced that they have brought falsehood and not truth in their claims.. It's common to any claim..

For example, your pet subject numeric pattern... :laugh:

So... believers do not give up on finding the truth and will not be dejected in the wake of extreme conspiracies.... They have to be constant..

Keep it up bruh.. Truth prevails :peace: ..

Fusion

The version of "The True Furqan" available as an Image PDF is difficult to search for specific concepts such as justice or equality to compare with the Quran.

For example, the Quran states:
"O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah, even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives..." (Quran 4:135). This verse is so profound if you know what I mean.

To make such comparisons, one would need to read the entire "The True Furqan," as it lacks a searchable format for specific keywords like "justice." As I mentioned in a previous post, and which Shukri has kindly pointed out, the Quran's challenge is not solely about its linguistic beauty but also its depth of meaning, consistency, and impact on people. To assess the consistency and depth of "The True Furqan," one would need to read it thoroughly to evaluate whether it meets these criteria/challange of Quran verse 4:82.

As believers, it is our responsibility to reflect on the Quran and ensure we grasp its consistency in all aspects, including grammar, meaning, and scientific facts (our era).

As Jkhan says that The term "testified" (shahada) in the Quran requires direct witnessing or strong evidence, which is not applicable to divine matters like the nature of Jesus. This is inconsistent with the Quranic principle that testimony should be based on direct evidence or witnessing. Hence, this indicates a human-authored text with a conceptual flaw, unlike the divine coherence of the Quran. The verse 75:01 seems to suggest a theological stance that aligns with the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, where Jesus is considered part of the Holy Spirit.

If we read the surrounding verses of 4:82, we understand that the context of "they" might refer to the people or hypocrites (munafiqan) mentioned in those verses during the time of revelation. However, in a broader sense applicable to all times, "they" could also refer to anyone who reflects on the Quran—believers and non-believers alike. It serves as an invitation for everyone to ponder deeply and critically about the Quran. The verse suggests that anyone who sincerely reflects on it will not find contradictions, thereby affirming its divine origin.

Certainly, I have many questions about the verses of the Quran, but these questions arise from my desire to understand better, not from  sheer doubt. When I read certain verses, I find comfort knowing that others have had similar queries about divine matters.

For instance, Prophet Ibrahim  asked Allah to show him how He gives life to the dead, and Allah instructed him to gather birds and call them to demonstrate His power (Quran 2:260). Similarly, Prophet Musa asked to see Allah, and Allah revealed Himself by making a mountain crumble (Quran 7:143). Moreover, there is the story of a man who passed by ruins and questioned how Allah would give life to the dead, and Allah caused him to die for a hundred years and then brought him back to life to show His power (Quran 2:259). Should I interpret these verses literally or allegorically? This question is part of the learning process
Best Regards,

jkhan

Quote from: Fusion on July 08, 2024, 03:48:34 PMThis is inconsistent with the Quranic principle that testimony should be based on direct evidence or witnessing.


Interesting claim... would you pls enlighten us with your intent statement?
In addition, what is the Quranic principle that it seems you are aware of the Quranic Principle?

Fusion

I used the term "principle" to convey my understanding. It does not mean that God explicitly names principles in the Quran. I use this term to describe consistent themes or guidelines I see in the Quran. Just like in my workplace, where we refer to principles, procedures, and policies to describe consistent approaches, I used "principle" here to express a similar idea in human language.

So, when I talked about the Quranic principle regarding testimony, I meant the consistent emphasis in the Quran on the need for direct evidence or witnessing, which I see reflected in various verses.

In the Quran, testimony is closely linked to having direct knowledge or evidence. For example, in (2:282), it is stated:

"O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah, his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her."

This verse highlights the importance of having reliable witnesses who can directly observe and testify accurately about financial transactions.

Another relevant verse is (4:135):

"O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah, even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted."

This verse stresses the necessity of justice and truthfulness in testimony, implying that testimony should be based on what one has directly witnessed or has solid evidence for.

The principle here is that testimony in the Quran is meant to be truthful and based on direct witnessing or strong evidence. This is why I second  (correct me if I got it wrong about your statement) your understanding of the use of the word "testified" in "The True Al Furqan" as inconsistent when referring to a belief about the nature of Jesus, as it suggests a declaration without direct evidence.

I hope this clarifies my use of the term "Quranic principle."

Added:
However, in matters of faith, "shahada" is an expression of one's belief and conviction in the truths revealed by God. For instance:
"Allah witnesses that there is no deity except Him, and [so do] the angels and those of knowledge - [that He is] maintaining [creation] in justice. There is no deity except Him, the Exalted in Might, the Wise." (Quran 3:18)
In this verse, the term "witness" (shahada) is used to declare the fundamental belief in the oneness of God, which is based on faith and revealed knowledge rather than direct observation.

In essence, while "shahada" in the Quran about faith matters signifies belief in revealed truths, the use of "testified" in "The True Al Furqan" regarding a theological claim about Jesus presents a contradiction with what Quran says about Jesus.

Best Regards,