GOD s revelation V Men s fabrications. Truth V Falsehood

[Euphoric]

Peace all.

Here is the argument of traditional Islam  to uphold both Qoran and "Sunnah and Hadith":

"Both Qoran and "Sunnah and Hadith" have been transmitted to us by the same people and preserved for us equally orally and in writing. To reject one is also to reject the other"

Salam

There's an easier way to disprove that arguement: We have the names of the Quran transmitters and they are not the same people as the hadith transmitters. Their names are mentioned in the books by al-Dani, ibn Mujahid, ibn al-Jazari and others.

In fact, some transmitters were weak in hadith but were accepted as a Quran's transmitter, like Abu Abd al-Rahman al-Sulami who was part of Hafs isnad. That would make the Hafs recitation inauthentic according to them and all the Quran's in his isnad today. A weak Quran is the most popular Quran today? Is it a coincidence?


About the verses:
1) They were clearly isolated and not making a general statement to everyone.
2) The Prophet was living and interacting with them and exposing them.

And to counter your conclusion, they can say the Quran tells people to go beyond its verses. They aren't rejecting the Quran, they're following it.

[good logic]

Peace Euphoric.
Thanks for your take. Let me quote you:

"In fact, some transmitters were weak in hadith but were accepted as a Quran's transmitter, like Abu Abd al-Rahman al-Sulami who was part of Hafs isnad. That would make the Hafs recitation inauthentic according to them and all the Quran's in his isnad today. A weak Quran is the most popular Quran today? Is it a coincidence?"

You mean there was no Hadith to transmit when Qoran started . In fact there was no Hadith up to at least the last Khalifa.
They must have all been "weak" in transmitting Hadith in this case , actually they were transmitting Zero Hadith. Yet they were transmitting Qoran. In that case disregard their Qoran also.

After that , the Qoran was already in the form of a book, The transmission was completed actually by the prophet. All the verses were already written down by him and under his instructions, collected into a book after his death.
 Or did the prophet leave a collection of writings called hadith for us from himself to be passed on? i.e authored by him.
Besides,is Qoran not enough since GOD calls it the best Hadith? Then why would anyone want another hadith if they have the best hadith available to them?
But people still keep insisting to follow other hadiths and questioning the value and sole authority of Qoran:
Are you questioning this Hadith ?
أَفَمِن هٰذَا الحَديثِ تَعجَبونَ
Are you laughing, instead of crying?
وَتَضحَكونَ وَلا تَبكونَ
Are you insisting on your ways?
وَأَنتُم سٰمِدونَ

 We have to question men s Hadiths. Because  GOD  said in Qoran that He has not authorised or given any partnership for others to write hadith for His religion?
And He confirmed for us that His words are complete in truth and justice and that He completed His religion with Qoran Alone for the prophet and the believers,. That is what was supposed to be  passed on to those after him.. No more ,no less.
And for sure I will not dare question GOD and His best hadith.
So each to their hadith/s .
GOD bless you.
Peace

[Bajram Hoxhaj]

But question for both of you GL and BH, is there any such verse in the Quran where Messenger SAID/QALA is placed without messenger being a word in the verse? So we can somewhat deduce..

At the time of revelation in the context of 24:1-7, there was only one messenger. The Quran always uses 'say,' never 'he said,' and the person speaking is always identified.

But both HAFS and WARSH cannot be right but only one can be right..

Then there are others each with chains of narrations to today.
Warsh 90% majority only few hundred years ago Hafs in minority.

It would be nice to have all those major changes compiled and listed.

See this site along with videos https://erquran.org/
Encyclopedia of the [variant] readings of the Qur'an

https://erquran.org/pages/encyclopedia/readings

Variant Types (1)
https://youtu.be/-g-l7Mt7O0k

Variant Types (2)
https://youtu.be/66g3ae5ianc

Numerous spelling variations (thousands with vowels), with some words different, added or missing. Additionally, there are those who claim verses were abrogated, or numerologists who remove verses and count letters, such as Qaf totaling 7034, etc. In any letter in any book, the expected multiples are approximately 1/19, e.g., chapters and #Qaf.

14 - 57
26 - 133
32 - 38
42 - 57
47 - 38
50 - 57
61 - 19

Likewise, in the earliest or oldest manuscripts, all 29 initials were together with the next verse, and 20 of 29 were broken out as separate verses hundreds of years later, e.g.:

50:1 Qāf Wa Al-Qur'āni Al-Majīdi (Estimated date: 1204)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/1966/page/14r?sura=50&verse=1

https://corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/32/page/42v?sura=50&verse=1

https://corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/59/page/184r?sura=50&verse=1

[Fusion]

At the time of revelation in the context of 24:1-7, there was only one messenger. The Quran always uses 'say,' never 'he said,' and the person speaking is always identified.

Then there are others each with chains of narrations to today.
Warsh 90% majority only few hundred years ago Hafs in minority.

See this site along with videos https://erquran.org/
Encyclopedia of the [variant] readings of the Qur'an

https://erquran.org/pages/encyclopedia/readings

Variant Types (1)
https://youtu.be/-g-l7Mt7O0k

Variant Types (2)
https://youtu.be/66g3ae5ianc

Numerous spelling variations (thousands with vowels), with some words replaced, added or missing. Additionally, there are those who claim verses were abrogated, or numerologists who remove verses and count letters, such as Qaf totaling 7034, etc. In any common letter in any book or news article, the expected multiples are approximately 1/19, e.g., chapters and #Qaf.

14 - 57
26 - 133
32 - 38
42 - 57
47 - 38
50 - 57
61 - 19

Likewise, in the earliest or oldest manuscripts, all 29 initials were together with the next verse, and 20 of 29 were broken out as separate verses hundreds of years later, e.g.:

50:1 Qāf Wa Al-Qur'āni Al-Majīdi (Estimated date: 1204)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/1966/page/14r?sura=50&verse=1

https://corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/32/page/42v?sura=50&verse=1

https://corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/59/page/184r?sura=50&verse=1

Hello Bajram,
Maybe I have missed the point of your discussion. Are you suggesting that the Quran we have today is not exactly the same as what was revealed to the Prophet to what %?, and that there are errors in its compilation, including minor and major changes in wording?  This is what I can deduce so far from your replies.

Beyond this, what are you trying to convey? Please summarize the key takeaways from your research. Do you believe in any part of the existing Quran, and if so, to what extent do you consider it to be correct? Also, could you share your own beliefs regarding the Quran and its authenticity?

[Bajram Hoxhaj]

Hello Bajram,
Maybe I have missed the point of your discussion. Are you suggesting that the Quran we have today is not exactly the same as what was revealed to the Prophet to what %?, and that there are errors in its compilation, including minor and major changes in wording?  This is what I can deduce so far from your replies.

Beyond this, what are you trying to convey? Please summarize the key takeaways from your research. Do you believe in any part of the existing Quran, and if so, to what extent do you consider it to be correct? Also, could you share your own beliefs regarding the Quran and its authenticity?

It's about 99% as revealed; the rest needs to be investigated via context, etc., for example, 21:4 'Qul/Say'.

Salaam

[Euphoric]

Salam

I hope I understood you correctly...Does something need to be written down or be in a book form to be considered true, or even possible? 

The Quran being written down comes from hadiths. There's no original Prophetic Quran that we have today and can be proven to be from him. All the information we have are hearsay and faith based.

What I was saying about transmitters of the Quran is that they were rejected in hadith transmission. The famous reading of today is of Hafs, read by the majority. Hafs and his teacher Asim were both rejected in hadith transmission, this means if we used hadith science as criteria, then the Quran majority read today should be rejected or at least considered unreliable as it came from Hafs through his teacher Asim.

Btw, hadith transmission existed as did the Quran transmission. The earliest hadith collection we have is around 50 years after the Prophet's death https://www.islamic-awareness.org/hadith/hadith , that disproves the claim hadiths were written down 200 years after. But we have Muwatta of Malik which dates back less than 200 years from the death of the Prophet https://www.islamic-awareness.org/hadith/perf731.

Either way the claim of hadiths coming 200 years after the prophet  and not being written has been disproven.

GOD bless you.
Peace

[good logic]

It does not matter about the past, hadiths, history or whatever has been said or done.

We now have Qoran, claimed by all Muslims to be authored/given by GOD . We can check any version/all the versions out and study,analyse/ponder...the contents. What does it say?

We also have Hadiths and other religious books, clearly from human authors,one can also do the same with what is available today if they choose to.

What is obvious is Qoran must take precedence and prioritise to be checked first,because it is claimed to be from GOD by the majority who follow Islam.

I am saying to you, if you believe like all Muslims do , GOD takes priority over the humans and we need to check Qoran s contents first.

This task gives the following clearly and forcefully:
GOD is the sole authority for His deen.
Qoran is complete and is the truth and does not need any human additions.
It is the best Hadith.
GOD does not need any partners to complete His deen.
Qoran alone is sufficient and GOD is the explainer and does the guidance.
We are strongly instructed to follow only what GOD has revealed in this Qoran,
To remind and preach with only Qoran.
...and many more clear advice to follow GOD Alone and His words that are complete in truth and justice.

It is a no brainer, if one believes, to obey GOD and follow His message.
One does not even need to check any other Hadith because one does not need any other human source or authority to partner GOD.
Who can possibly argue with this ,except those who do not believe in GOD or that GOD has sent a book or Qoran is from GOD?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[jkhan]

At the time of revelation in the context of 24:1-7, there was only one messenger. The Quran always uses 'say,' never 'he said,' and the person speaking is always identified.

Then there are others each with chains of narrations to today.
Warsh 90% majority only few hundred years ago Hafs in minority.

See this site along with videos https://erquran.org/
Encyclopedia of the [variant] readings of the Qur'an

https://erquran.org/pages/encyclopedia/readings

Variant Types (1)
https://youtu.be/-g-l7Mt7O0k

Variant Types (2)
https://youtu.be/66g3ae5ianc

Numerous spelling variations (thousands with vowels), with some words different, added or missing. Additionally, there are those who claim verses were abrogated, or numerologists who remove verses and count letters, such as Qaf totaling 7034, etc. In any letter in any book, the expected multiples are approximately 1/19, e.g., chapters and #Qaf.

14 - 57
26 - 133
32 - 38
42 - 57
47 - 38
50 - 57
61 - 19

Likewise, in the earliest or oldest manuscripts, all 29 initials were together with the next verse, and 20 of 29 were broken out as separate verses hundreds of years later, e.g.:

50:1 Qāf Wa Al-Qur'āni Al-Majīdi (Estimated date: 1204)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/1966/page/14r?sura=50&verse=1

https://corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/32/page/42v?sura=50&verse=1

https://corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/59/page/184r?sura=50&verse=1

Thanks for answering my main question... Any way Message of Allah is for those who believe and they would reach to God's messages aptly..

It's like.. there are a lot of signs in nature and believers will perceive them but it doesn't mean there is something missing in nature's signs... The one who cannot perceive what nature has to offer as signs would definitely mess with Allah's revealed book..

Anyway keep researching if you all think the Deity of anyone is there and we are to return to Him.. If we are to return to Him then be prepared before meeting Him.. and to be prepared look for truth...
btw if the book of Quran seems just another ancient faltered book then move on.. No one is captivating anyone to hold fast to it.. one can say nature is on it's own and no hands behind it so one can say there is no God's communication but all human touch..

Keep researching fellow believers..

[good logic]

Peace Euphoric.

You say, quote:

Btw, hadith transmission existed as did the Quran transmission. The earliest hadith collection we have is around 50 years after the Prophet's death https://www.islamic-awareness.org/hadith/hadith , that disproves the claim hadiths were written down 200 years after. But we have Muwatta of Malik which dates back less than 200 years from the death of the Prophet"

Does this mean  the prophet and the believers during his time and those who came up to 50 years after him had no Hadiths?
The prophet , according to the Muslims history has not passed down any Hadith or written parchments of Hadiths to be passed on, yet he did pass on Qoran both orally and written down in parchments.

This also means Qoran existed on its own up to that time.
Does this not mean also that whether it was 50 years or 200 years after the prophet s death,the argument is the same? i.e there was no hadiths collection/books during that period and that Qoran alone was being followed.
Your post does not change anything or give any evidence that Hadiths are to be followed. In fact it is reiterating the same false premise that Hadiths have been legitimate since the prophet and their transmission can be trusted like the Qoran.

I am amazed at the reasoning of the majority of traditional Muslims. They preach Islam using Qoran as a bait and tell you to use your faculties/reasoning and check its verses out because GOD authored it, yet at the same time they want you to stop using your faculties/reasoning and just accept Hadiths with it even if Qoran tells you otherwise!
In fact it goes deeper than that ,they tell you How do you know it is from GOD if you do not follow hadith as both had the same transmission?
Now you are supposed to prove to them that Qoran is from GOD because you do not believe in Hadith!
Double dutch to me this weird reasoning. Just don t believe Qoran then since you are the one telling me it is from GOD..
Actually many do not believe Qoran since they follow many laws and habits that contradict it in hadiths..
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[amin]

In Quran, it itself refers Quran or Kitab, in many verses, but we totally think Quran as the book with X surahs with verses as whole  and searching for some miracle 19s etc... but I think the Quran or Kitab it refers only the unchangeable laws set forth by God or what we see from the system. Where we learn(read) to get guidance, it needs to be the laws or rules that are written onto the system, not the book, the christians called as people of the book while many modern muslims also become the people of the book in many ways. We have people reading it in memory, but have we understood the message correctly? Even how hard we hide the truth or the real kitab of what is right and wrong will be repeatedly coming up from the great blessed people.

I think  Holy book, the holy Prophet, Holy place etc are all coming from the community or religion, I feel nothing are holy except him and thats the concept of Masjid al Haram, a practice to understand God when we keep us away from worldly things,  only God comes from one's individual heart, He does not belong to any one specific religion, culture or sect. He is common for all, thats the goodnews that so many people of different religions preaches and that Quran also teaches.