Exploring Attributes of God's Nature - Seeking Insights/Perspectives -No Debate

[shukri]

Thank you, Shukri and Good Logic, for sharing your insights. I would greatly value your input on the main question of my thread if you have a moment. Clarifying that point is crucial for me, and your expertise would be incredibly helpful.

For instance, when we talk about God experiencing emotions, I'm curious about how this aligns with God's all-knowing nature. If God knows everything that will happen, how do emotions play into this? This is where I find myself seeking more clarity, beyond the literal text, to grasp the essence of God's nature from a philosophical and theological perspective.

Sorry brother Fusion
I have no knowledge about that!
Even Jesus, son of Mary, I think cannot solve this God's nature mystery during his worldly life!

5:116 And God will say: "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you tell the people to take you and your mother as gods other than God?" He said: "Glory to You, I cannot say what I have no right of. If I had said it then You know it, You know what is in my self while I do not know what is in Your self. You are the Knower of the unseen." (Free-minds translation)

May God bless you.
Thank you.

[Fusion]

Thank you for sharing that poignant verse about the conversation between God and Jesus, which opens up deep reflections on the nature of God as depicted in the Quran. Your citation has led me to ponder further on the broader theme of God's omniscience, especially the verses that highlight God's knowledge of the unseen, the secrets of the earth and the skies, affirming His encompassing knowledge.

The Quran repeatedly emphasizes God's omniscience, stating He knows what is hidden and what is apparent. This, to an observer in awe of the universe's mysteries, might initially suggest that these unknown realms exist independently, with God asserting His awareness of them as if they were external to His creation. However, this perspective shifts dramatically when considering God as the Creator of all things. From this viewpoint, it is not merely that God knows about the unseen as an external observer but that He is intimately acquainted with it because He is its originator.

Thus, when God declares He knows the unseen, it's not a proclamation of having learned about something external but an affirmation of His absolute sovereignty and creative power. Everything that exists or occurs, be it visible or hidden, is within God's knowledge because He is the ultimate source. In this light, the statement "I know the unseen" could be seen not as God discovering the unseen but as a declaration of His unparalleled creative authority and comprehensive knowledge.

This reflection brings me to appreciate even more deeply the intricate ways the Quran describes God's relationship with creation. It underscores that nothing is beyond or outside of God's wisdom and power. It's a humbling reminder of our limited understanding and the vastness of God's knowledge and sovereignty.

For example: In reflecting upon verse 35:38 of the Quran, there appears to be an implication that God is informing us about matters unknown to us, suggesting these matters exist independently of both humanity and God, and that He alone is privy to them. This interpretation might lead one to ponder: given that God is the Creator of everything, doesn't His knowledge of all things come inherently with His act of creation? The verse states, 'Indeed, Allah is the Knower of the unseen of the heavens and the earth. He surely knows best what is ˹hidden˺ in the heart.' This brings to the fore a question about the nature of divine knowledge: Is it not a given that God, as the Creator of all, would possess an intrinsic understanding of His creation, rather than this knowledge being something that is acquired or external to Him?

[good logic]

Peace Fusion.

What do you mean by "emotions" for a creator that is perfect?

Let me clarify for you by some examples:

Can GOD feel anger? Happiness? Sadness?... How is this possible?

If GOD knows every beginning and end of everything created, then GOD transcends this phase of emotions that we show because of our infallibility/lack of knowledge/thought...

GOD would prefer if the created take the good choices and decisions , but He planned for all possibilities and knows every end result His knowledge and traits make Him unique, no needs whatsoever and there are no errors, regrets, wrong plans to have emotions about.

Think about it? All bad emotions or good ones come from actions and plans of humans. Since we are imperfect, we make errors, misjudge,make mistakes... etc.Hence we have emotions galore.

GOD s perfection takes care of all the negative and bad traits.GOD has no need full stop.

GOD is transparent and complete. GOD has not left us without the details of how to succeed or fail. Emotions have no part to play into our reckoning.
If one claims that GOD has emotions and may interfere with His judgements, then they are making an excuse . It is irrelevant and wrong. GOD is fair and just above all that is unfair and wrong..
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Fusion]

Can GOD feel anger? Happiness? Sadness?... How is this possible?
If one claims that GOD has emotions and may interfere with His judgements, then they are making an excuse . It is irrelevant and wrong. GOD is fair and just above all that is unfair and wrong..
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Thank you GL for clarifying with an example.

So what you are saying in other words is that the Quran uses language that anthropomorphically attributes emotions to God, such as love, pleasure, dislike, and anger, to communicate His guidance, laws, and the consequences of human actions in a manner that is relatable to human understanding. Is this what you meant?

Moreover, these descriptions are not meant to imply that God experiences emotions in the same way humans do. So my question is does God experiences emotions at all??

Meaning does God react to events as humans do? Yes I know God knows all past present future... so that means God should not react to actions of Humans as means of happiness or surprised or in anger? But these emotions which are explained in Quran is for us humans to understand and not that God is exposed to those emotions at the time? 

In other words if some questions comes into my mind such as what is God made of? How does he smile or become happy or sad or otherwise is because of my inability to comprehend his nature and is well beyond my capabilities.

Hope I am not crossing the boundaries here but its like the below verse:
7:143
And when Moses came to Our appointed time and his Lord spoke with him, he said, 'Oh my Lord, show me, that I may behold Thee!' Said He, 'Thou shalt not see Me; but behold the mountain -- if it stays fast in its place, then thou shalt see Me.' And when his Lord revealed Him to the mountain He made it crumble to dust; and Moses fell down swooning. So when he awoke, he said, 'Glory be to Thee! I repent to Thee; I am the first of the believers

The essence of this verse deeply resonates with me, highlighting a curiosity that tugs at my heartstrings. My wonderment lies in whether God possesses attributes akin to human emotions—such as joy, sorrow, or anger. However, I'm keenly aware that if God indeed harbors such traits, they cannot mirror human emotions in any straightforward manner. This is because likening God's emotions to ours might inadvertently suggest that He, too, is a created being, which is a notion far from my belief. Thus, I acknowledge that these divine attributes are beyond my current understanding. Nonetheless, this acknowledgment does not dampen my eagerness to delve into the mystery of God's nature and to grasp the unfathomable aspects of His being.

[good logic]

Brother Fusion.

There is nothing wrong in asking questions , it is also natural to want to wonder//be curious what is the shape/form/nature of GOD.

But we are clearly told "no one can see GOD in this life". We have to wait until after life.

So we can Imagine and search for clues and use GOD s traits as best we can to complete our own picture of GOD in our mind according to His message.

My own view about whether GOD has emotions or not are irrelevant and GOD is unique, so we cannot compare GOD to anything with emotions or without anyway.

I am talking about the emotions like angry, jealous, happy,  sad,hateful,... that go with certain human characters cannot be said about GOD.
As for pleased , disappointed , forceful, forgiving...etc they are for reward or sanction and are His traits.

GOD in a mind of a submitter is a being worthy of the utmost reverence, this will instill love and respect and serve as a protection and a deterrent of all bad things  GOD will be in the mind 24/7 and GOD conscious mind will evolve rendering the "picture" thoughts irrelevant .

GOD becomes a dear invisible friend, with a strong presence 24/7 with you.
GOD bless you.
Peace..

[Fusion]

Brother Fusion.

But we are clearly told "no one can see GOD in this life". We have to wait until after life.

So we can Imagine and search for clues and use GOD s traits as best we can to complete our own picture of GOD in our mind according to His message.

Peace..

Thank you GL for your prompt reply and I do appreciate it.

I've been reflecting on faith in the unseen and obedience to God's commands, especially comparing the experiences of prophets to those of ordinary believers. Moses, for example, not only witnessed extraordinary signs from God but also had moments of human frailty, such as when he unintentionally killed a man and later asked to see God directly. This request led to a profound lesson when he couldn't withstand seeing God's manifestation to the mountain and fell unconscious and only then he said "Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers."

Considering this, how should we understand the faith of someone today who believes in the unseen, follows God's commands without witnessing miracles, and knows of these prophetic stories only through the Quran? Moses had direct encounters with the divine, yet it was after seeing the consequences of his request that he expressed a renewed declaration of faith. In contrast, many believers have never witnessed such signs but hold firm to their faith.

What does the Quran convey about the value of this kind of faith in the unseen, especially in comparison to the faith of someone like Moses who experienced direct signs from God?

[good logic]

Peace Fusion.
 Do you mean GOD does not show miracles to believers anymore?

I disagree , GOD does lets the believer know with certainty eventually with many different signs and the believer will attain certainty about GOD s existence and omnipresence.

However the trial has to be done first and the length of it is according to GOD s knowledge and the conviction of the believer.

A relationship with GOD is then cemented and GOD is priority number one in everything in the life of the believer:

Your Lord is fully aware of your innermost thoughts. If you maintain righteousness, He is Forgiver of those who repent.
رَبُّكُم أَعلَمُ بِما فى نُفوسِكُم إِن تَكونوا صٰلِحينَ فَإِنَّهُ كانَ لِلأَوّٰبينَ غَفورًا
Your Lord knows you best. According to His knowledge, He may shower you with mercy, or He may requite you. We did not send you to be their advocate.
رَبُّكُم أَعلَمُ بِكُم إِن يَشَأ يَرحَمكُم أَو إِن يَشَأ يُعَذِّبكُم وَما أَرسَلنٰكَ عَلَيهِم وَكيلًا

GOD explain to the messenger why a test has to come first:

We informed you that your Lord fully controls the people, and we rendered the vision that we showed you a test for the people, and the tree that is accursed in the Quran.* We showed them solid proofs to instill reverence in them, but this only augmented their defiance.
وَإِذ قُلنا لَكَ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ أَحاطَ بِالنّاسِ وَما جَعَلنَا الرُّءيَا الَّتى أَرَينٰكَ إِلّا فِتنَةً لِلنّاسِ وَالشَّجَرَةَ المَلعونَةَ فِى القُرءانِ وَنُخَوِّفُهُم فَما يَزيدُهُم إِلّا طُغيٰنًا كَبيرًا

Satan also plays his role and dupes the majority. The test has to be passed first.

Qoran ,GOD s revelation has all the details we need to know about GOD and how to redeem ourselves:
 
Say, "Everyone works in accordance with his belief, and your Lord knows best which ones are guided in the right path."
قُل كُلٌّ يَعمَلُ عَلىٰ شاكِلَتِهِ فَرَبُّكُم أَعلَمُ بِمَن هُوَ أَهدىٰ سَبيلًا

Divine Revelation: The Source of All Knowledge

They ask you about the revelation. Say, "The revelation comes from my Lord. The knowledge given to you is minute."
وَيَسـَٔلونَكَ عَنِ الرّوحِ قُلِ الرّوحُ مِن أَمرِ رَبّى وَما أوتيتُم مِنَ العِلمِ إِلّا قَليلًا
If we will, we can take back what we revealed to you, then you will find no protector against us.
وَلَئِن شِئنا لَنَذهَبَنَّ بِالَّذى أَوحَينا إِلَيكَ ثُمَّ لا تَجِدُ لَكَ بِهِ عَلَينا وَكيلًا
This is but mercy from your Lord. His blessings upon you have been great.
إِلّا رَحمَةً مِن رَبِّكَ إِنَّ فَضلَهُ كانَ عَلَيكَ كَبيرًا

Thank you Lord for all your blessings to all the believers..
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Fusion]

Peace Fusion.
 Do you mean GOD does not show miracles to believers anymore?

In the spirit of open discussion, I'd like to engage with your perspective by drawing a comparative line of inquiry. May I first inquire whether "vigilance" is considered an attribute of God And if so, what might be the reasons for it seeming less emphasized or apparent lately in today's world affairs? because if this were happening as it used to then I would also consider your above statement.

For example, it's worth considering the multifaceted nature of progress. Modern nations have indeed made remarkable strides in all walks of life, creating opportunities for their citizens and even extending these benefits to others by welcoming them into their communities where people flock to those countries for a bright future. However, it's observed that these same nations, in the pursuit of their own security, can often act in ways that contradict the well-being of less prosperous nations so much as some times level an entire nation to the ground... Considering this complexity, one might wonder about the divine response that historical precedents suggest. Why does it seem that the vigilance and corrective actions from God, often swift in ancient narratives, are not as readily apparent today? Could it be that the divine watchfulness over the affairs of nations is exercised in ways that are not immediately obvious to us?

Consider these verses:
Did you not see how your Lord dealt with 'Ȃd
˹the people˺ of Iram—with ˹their˺ great stature,
unmatched in any other land;
and Thamûd who carved ˹their homes into˺ the rocks in the ˹Stone˺ Valley;
and the Pharaoh of mighty structures?
spreading much corruption there
So your Lord unleashed on them a scourge of punishment.
For˺ your Lord is truly vigilant.

What I could deduce then is the following:
In reflecting upon the narratives of divine intervention in the Quran and Bible, where nations were directly punished for their disobedience, it's intriguing to note the contrast with contemporary human conflicts. Despite the tremendous suffering brought about by wars, including the use of atomic bombs and other forms of mass violence, there seems to be a conspicuous absence of unilateral divine wrath or miracles. This observation suggests a possible evolution in the relationship between humanity and the divine, where the focus is perhaps more on human agency and the natural consequences of our actions. It could be argued that in these times, humanity is more at war with itself, navigating the complexities of conflict without the direct intervention seen in ancient texts. This shift might reflect a divine will for humans to learn through the repercussions of their choices, underlining a profound belief in human responsibility and the capacity for moral and ethical growth.

[good logic]

Peace Fusion.

"Likulli Ajalin  Kitaab".... "Yamhu Allah Ma Yashau Wa Yuthbbit"..."Wa  Indahu Ilmu Al Kitaab".

GOD has the "master tablet -blue print " of all the generations.  GOD acts among the generations according to His knowledge of their time on earth.

Look for example how the successive generations of Beni Israel have received different scriptures. The last scripture "Qoran- will cover all humanity now.

Similarly GOD s warnings to the old generations were different and severe.
GOD s final warning to all humans now is judgement day" waiting aside for all of us.
But there are still situations where these things are happening around us throughout the world:

Even if a Quran caused mountains to move, or the earth to tear asunder, or the dead to speak (they will not believe). God controls all things. Is it not time for the believers to give up and realize that if God willed, He could have guided all the people? The disbelievers will continue to suffer disasters, as a consequence of their own works, or have disasters strike close to them, until God's promise is fulfilled. God will never change the predetermined destiny.
وَلَو أَنَّ قُرءانًا سُيِّرَت بِهِ الجِبالُ أَو قُطِّعَت بِهِ الأَرضُ أَو كُلِّمَ بِهِ المَوتىٰ بَل لِلَّهِ الأَمرُ جَميعًا أَفَلَم يَا۟يـَٔسِ الَّذينَ ءامَنوا أَن لَو يَشاءُ اللَّهُ لَهَدَى النّاسَ جَميعًا وَلا يَزالُ الَّذينَ كَفَروا تُصيبُهُم بِما صَنَعوا قارِعَةٌ أَو تَحُلُّ قَريبًا مِن دارِهِم حَتّىٰ يَأتِىَ وَعدُ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يُخلِفُ الميعادَ

Interesting conversation and thread brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Fusion]

Thank you, Good Logic.

From what I understand, when you referenced verses 13:38,39, it seems like our period of grace extends until the Day of Judgment, which is why we don't see immediate consequences as past nations did.

It appears you're suggesting that a sort of evolutionary principle, as ordained by God, governs nations, where the strong (often the oppressors today) survive, while others falter, regardless of their moral standing—somewhat akin to Darwin's "survival of the fittest."

Regarding verse 13:31, I'm curious about its context because its latter part seems to suggest a different scenario from what we observe today, or perhaps I'm missing something here?

I hope my questions don't come off as disrespectful; I'm genuinely seeking to deepen my understanding based on your insights.

I have another question about the term you referred "Wa  Indahu Ilmu Al Kitaab" but will ask shortly.