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Chapter Ar Rahman.... Fabiayyi Aalai Rabbikuma Thukazziban

Started by jkhan, May 17, 2023, 06:24:50 AM

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jkhan

For this particular verse in Quran I get only translations as "which of the favors or blessings of your Lord both of you belie... "

But does anyone think in different way... Coz the verses which come before this particular verse sometimes not befiting  to claim favor or blessing...
I think it is like which of the possession or ability of your Lord both of you deny...

Let me know anyone feels so...

Thank you...

Fusion

In my understanding it may reflect as

So will you reflect on which of the powers of your Rabb you would deny?

or

So just ponder on which of the powers of your Rabb you would deny?
Best Regards,

jkhan

Quote from: Fusion on May 17, 2023, 10:06:50 AM
In my understanding it may reflect as

So will you reflect on which of the powers of your Rabb you would deny?

or

So just ponder on which of the powers of your Rabb you would deny?

That makes sense... Thank you... But I have to verify some dictionary meaning as well of the particular word which is translated as favor or blessing whether it suits for power or abilities... As well within Quran as well...
Thank you...

Nom de plume

إِلًى (ʔilan), إِلَى (ʔilā), pl. آلَاء‎ (ʔālāʔ)
benefits, favors, etc.

7:69 اوعجبتم do wonder you ان that جاكم came you ذكر remembrance من from ربكم lord yours على on رجل man منكم among you لىنذركم to warned you واذكروا and remembrance ye of اذ when جعلكم made you خلفا successors من from بعد after قوم folk نوح Noah وزدكم and increase you فى in الخلق the creation (stature) بصطه extensively (with letter saad denotes plural) فاذكروا so remembrance ye of الا favors الله the God لعلكم perhaps you تفلحون succeeding

7:74 واذكروا and remembrance ye of اذ when جعلكم made you خلفا successors من from بعد after عاد Aad وبواكم and settled you فى in الارض the land تتخذون thou taking من from سهولها plains its قصورا palaces of وتنحتون and thou carving الجبل the mountains (habitable) بىوتا houses of فاذكروا so remembrance ye of الا favors الله the God ولا and not تعثوا do mischief ye of فى in الارض the land مفسدىن who corrupt they

53:55 فباى so in which الا favors ربك lord your (sing.) تتمرى thou dispute

(31 occurrences repeated verbatim)
55:13 فباى so in which الا favors ربكما lord yours dual تكذبن thou deny two (cited next)
55:14 خلقا creation of لانسن the human من from صلصال mold clay كالفخار like the pottery
55:15 وخلق and creation الجن the jinn من from مارج smokeless flame من of نار fire

Mazhar

Quote from: jkhan on May 17, 2023, 06:24:50 AM
For this particular verse in Quran I get only translations as "which of the favors or blessings of your Lord both of you belie... "

But does anyone think in different way... Coz the verses which come before this particular verse sometimes not befiting  to claim favor or blessing...
I think it is like which of the possession or ability of your Lord both of you deny...

Let me know anyone feels so...

Thank you...


فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ .١٣

Therefore, which of the [innumerable, some mentioned hereinbefore] blessings of the Sustainer Lord of you both will you contradict? [55:13]

(یہ جاننے کے بعد تم دونوں (جن و انس)اپنے رب کے کس کس احسان،نعمت کو برملا جھٹلاؤ گے؟ (الرحمٰن۔١٣



فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ .١٨

Therefore, which of the places of presence of the Sustainer Lord of both of you will you both contradict? [55:18]

(یہ جاننے کے بعد تم دونوں اپنے رب کے متعلق اُن کے کس جگہ رب ہونے کو برملا جھٹلاؤ گے؟(الرحمٰن۔١٨


فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ .٢١

Therefore, which of the invisible obstructions, set by the Sustainer Lord of both of you, will you both contradict? [55:21]

(یہ جاننے کے بعد تم دونوں اپنے رب کے کس کس انتظام/غیر مرئی رکاوٹوں کو برملا جھٹلاؤ گے؟ (الرحمٰن۔٢١


فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ .٢٣

Therefore, which of the free grants of the Sustainer Lord of you will you both contradict? [55:23]

(یہ جاننے کے بعد تم دونوں اپنے رب کے کس کس انتظام،احسان،نعمت کو برملا جھٹلاؤ گے؟(الرحمٰن۔٢٣



فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ .٢٨

Therefore, which of the grandeur of the Sustainer Lord of both of you will you both contradict? [55:28]

( اِس لئے تم دونوں اپنے رب کے کس کس مقام و مرتبہ وعظمت کو برملا جھٹلاؤ گے؟ (سورۃالرحمٰن۔٢٨



فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ.٣٦

Therefore, which of the arrangement/mode/preparedness for punishing the criminals by your Sustainer Lord, you both will contradict? [55:36]

اس لئے اپنے رب کے(مجرموں کو) سزا دینے کے کس کس انداز/انتظام /بندوبست کو تم دونوں برملا جھٹلاؤ گے۔(سورۃ الرحمٰن۔۳۶)

فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ  ُParticle refers back to earlier statement. Thereby the question relates to earlier statement.

For others please see:
https://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-10PartSura50-67.htm
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

jkhan

Quote from: Mazhar on July 08, 2023, 05:06:25 AM

فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ .١٣

Therefore, which of the [innumerable, some mentioned hereinbefore] blessings of the Sustainer Lord of you both will you contradict? [55:13]

(یہ جاننے کے بعد تم دونوں (جن و انس)اپنے رب کے کس کس احسان،نعمت کو برملا جھٹلاؤ گے؟ (الرحمٰن۔١٣



فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ .١٨

Therefore, which of the places of presence of the Sustainer Lord of both of you will you both contradict? [55:18]

(یہ جاننے کے بعد تم دونوں اپنے رب کے متعلق اُن کے کس جگہ رب ہونے کو برملا جھٹلاؤ گے؟(الرحمٰن۔١٨


فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ .٢١

Therefore, which of the invisible obstructions, set by the Sustainer Lord of both of you, will you both contradict? [55:21]

(یہ جاننے کے بعد تم دونوں اپنے رب کے کس کس انتظام/غیر مرئی رکاوٹوں کو برملا جھٹلاؤ گے؟ (الرحمٰن۔٢١


فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ .٢٣

Therefore, which of the free grants of the Sustainer Lord of you will you both contradict? [55:23]

(یہ جاننے کے بعد تم دونوں اپنے رب کے کس کس انتظام،احسان،نعمت کو برملا جھٹلاؤ گے؟(الرحمٰن۔٢٣



فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ .٢٨

Therefore, which of the grandeur of the Sustainer Lord of both of you will you both contradict? [55:28]

( اِس لئے تم دونوں اپنے رب کے کس کس مقام و مرتبہ وعظمت کو برملا جھٹلاؤ گے؟ (سورۃالرحمٰن۔٢٨



فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ رَبِّكُمَا تُكَذِّبَانِ.٣٦

Therefore, which of the arrangement/mode/preparedness for punishing the criminals by your Sustainer Lord, you both will contradict? [55:36]

اس لئے اپنے رب کے(مجرموں کو) سزا دینے کے کس کس انداز/انتظام /بندوبست کو تم دونوں برملا جھٹلاؤ گے۔(سورۃ الرحمٰن۔۳۶)

فَبِأَىِّ ءَالَآءِ  ُParticle refers back to earlier statement. Thereby the question relates to earlier statement.

For others please see:
https://haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-10PartSura50-67.htm

Salam..

Well I don't disagree with you,  but why not stick with one meaning for all those chapter 55 verses...i don't quite agree with favors and blessings.. But why not one word and befit with all appearances of the word in particular chapter 55..
Or you think different wording suits for different appearance... Well.. I am not sure.. But I am happy with one word to elaborate complete chapter but not favor or blessing..
Thank you.

Mazhar

Quote from: jkhan on July 08, 2023, 08:23:56 AM
Salam..

Well I don't disagree with you,  but why not stick with one meaning for all those chapter 55 verses...i don't quite agree with favors and blessings.. But why not one word and befit with all appearances of the word in particular chapter 55..
Or you think different wording suits for different appearance... Well.. I am not sure.. But I am happy with one word to elaborate complete chapter but not favor or blessing..
Thank you.

Unique Literary feature:

In this Chapter the figure of speech termed Tautology is used in such manner that its parallel might not be found in the entire literature of all languages. Word Tautology is derived from the Greek word tauto, meaning "the same," and logos, meaning "a word or an idea." A grammatical tautology refers to an idea repeated within a phrase, paragraph, or sentence to give an impression that the writer is providing extra information. Tautology is often confused with repetition. Some authorities say repetition uses the same words, while tautology uses words with similar meanings. That tautology is the repetition – not of words, but of ideas.

Tautology has been used as a powerful tool to emphasize a particular idea and to draw reader's attention to different aspects of life.

A dependent sentence is used throughout the Chapter as tautology:


At every place words are same but the idea, meanings are different. The point that it is the best example of Tautology is also evident from the fact that it begins with conjunction Particle "Fa". It conjuncts clauses, semantically signifies cause and effect relationship and shows that later is subsequent to the former in time duration natural to taking its effect.

A dependent clause is always interpreted in relation to its preceding independent clause.

https://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Individual%20Ayaat/055/055/055.%20Intro%20sura.htm
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

jkhan

Quote from: Mazhar on July 08, 2023, 08:56:21 AM
Unique Literary feature:

In this Chapter the figure of speech termed Tautology is used in such manner that its parallel might not be found in the entire literature of all languages. Word Tautology is derived from the Greek word tauto, meaning "the same," and logos, meaning "a word or an idea." A grammatical tautology refers to an idea repeated within a phrase, paragraph, or sentence to give an impression that the writer is providing extra information. Tautology is often confused with repetition. Some authorities say repetition uses the same words, while tautology uses words with similar meanings. That tautology is the repetition – not of words, but of ideas.

Tautology has been used as a powerful tool to emphasize a particular idea and to draw reader's attention to different aspects of life.

A dependent sentence is used throughout the Chapter as tautology:


At every place words are same but the idea, meanings are different. The point that it is the best example of Tautology is also evident from the fact that it begins with conjunction Particle "Fa". It conjuncts clauses, semantically signifies cause and effect relationship and shows that later is subsequent to the former in time duration natural to taking its effect.

A dependent clause is always interpreted in relation to its preceding independent clause.

https://haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Individual%20Ayaat/055/055/055.%20Intro%20sura.htm

Thank you for explaining your understanding... I am hearing that word first-time...

But point to note here is all phrases are identical but applying different meaning to each phrase looks odd for me with flow of verses.. I don't think God would have meant so.. Let me tell you why.. In "Fabiayyi Aalai Rabbikuma Thukazziban " Allah questions literally and it ends with word 'BELIE'... so what they indeed belie?  Every statement God raised in the chapter is either blessings or warning or punishment etc then Allah placed this phrase as He willed.. So preceding and following verses should befit to the phrase and its core meaning.. That's why I said favor or blessing for word 'Aalai ' doesn't befit in every place in my understanding...  Something else would be replaced.. You brought different meanings and you accomadated your point but it doesn't look what God meant...  Your wordings are Okay but different meaning to same and identical phrase in same chapter is hard to accept. .at least in my case.. For me Allah is raising the same question again and again on the chapter by making certain statements preceded.. 

As of now I'm satisfied with "which of the possession of your Lord both of you belie"
Even I am happy with power / arrangement as you have translated.. But all places should be one meaning and that makes sense for me... But the chosen  word for Aalai should befit to all contexts of the verses.. That's key..

Thank you
Salam.

Mazhar

Quote from: jkhan on July 08, 2023, 10:04:46 AM
Thank you for explaining your understanding... I am hearing that word first-time...

But point to note here is all phrases are identical but applying different meaning to each phrase looks odd for me with flow of verses.. I don't think God would have meant so.. Let me tell you why.. In "Fabiayyi Aalai Rabbikuma Thukazziban " Allah questions literally and it ends with word 'BELIE'... so what they indeed belie?  Every statement God raised in the chapter is either blessings or warning or punishment etc then Allah placed this phrase as He willed.. So preceding and following verses should befit to the phrase and its core meaning.. That's why I said favor or blessing for word 'Aalai ' doesn't befit in every place in my understanding...  Something else would be replaced.. You brought different meanings and you accomadated your point but it doesn't look what God meant...  Your wordings are Okay but different meaning to same and identical phrase in same chapter is hard to accept. .at least in my case.. For me Allah is raising the same question again and again on the chapter by making certain statements preceded.. 

As of now I'm satisfied with "which of the possession of your Lord both of you belie"
Even I am happy with power / arrangement as you have translated.. But all places should be one meaning and that makes sense for me... But the chosen  word for Aalai should befit to all contexts of the verses.. That's key..

Thank you
Salam.

You did not see the link. Meanings will be with reference to context.

Still another peculiarity is that a sentence in fact a subordinate clause, is repeated 31 times out of 78 Ayahs, indicating 32 distinct segments.

The noun: ءَالَآءِ  in the possessive phrase, definite by construct, stems from Root: ء ل و. Ibn Faris [died 1005] stated:

(مقاييس اللغة)

الهمزة واللام وما بعدهما في المعتلّ أصلان متباعدان: أحدهما الاجتهاد* والمبالغة [والآخر التقصير] والثاني خلاف ذلك الأوّل

That it has divergent - contrast meanings of diligence, jurisdictive, hyperbole disposing, and other is falling short of what was requisite or what is ought, default.

Its Semantic domain is thus: Performance. Performance denotes the accomplishment of a given task measured against known standards of accuracy and completeness.

It conveys meanings of execution, carrying out, carrying into action, the act of performing; doing something successfully, any recognized accomplishment.

Performance is with reference to accomplishment of a task. Thereby, the accomplished performance: ءَالَآءِ will mean and refer only to what is talked about - individual piece of work of particular nature:

أَوَ عَجِبْتُـمْ أَن جَآءَكُمْ ذِكْرٚ مِّن رَّبِّكُـمْ عَلَـىٰ رَجُلٛ مِّنكُـمْ لِيُنذِرَكُمْۚ

Is your rejection only because you people felt it strange that the Memoir/ Referential/Reference Book, an explicit verbal discourse, has come to you from your Sustainer Lord by revelation upon the Man of staunch monotheist belief amongst you? Its objective is that he might alarm and admonish you —

یا کیا تمہارے پس و پیش کرنے کی وجہ تمہارا یہ تعجب ہے کہ  ہدایت نامہ تمہارے پاس تمہارے رب کی جانب سے آسان فہم تدوین میں پہنچا ہے جسے تم میں موجود  فلسفہ توحید پر کاربند مرد پر نازل کیا گیا ہے تاکہ وہ تمہیں متنبہ کرے ۔

Root: ع ج ب

وَٱذكُرُوٓا۟ إِذْ جَعَلَـكُـمْ خُلَفَآءَ مِنۢ بَعْدِ قَوْمِ نُوحٛ

And recall when He the Exalted appointed you the rulers after the fall/annihilation of the nation of Noah [alai'his'slaam]; and demographically increased you quite extensively —

اور اس وقت کو یاد کرو جب ان جناب نے نوح(علیہ السلام)کی قوم کی غرقابی کے بعد کے زمانے میں تم لوگوں کو بطورخود مختار قوم بنا دیا۔

وَزَادَكُمْ فِـى ٱلْخَلْقِ بَصۜ​ْطَةٙۖ

And He the Exalted demographically increased you quite extensively —

اور تم لوگوں کو افزوں کیا،آبادی کی تخلیق کے حوالے سے وسعت عنایت کر کے۔

Root: ب س ط

فَٱذْكُرُوٓا۟ ءَالَآءَ ٱللَّهِ

Therefore, remember and acknowledge the blessings of Allah the Exalted —

اگر چاہتے ہو کہ یہ عروج برقرار رہے تو اللہ تعالیٰ کی کرم فرمائیوں کو یاد رکھو۔

لَعَلَّـكُـمْ تُفْلِحُونَ .٦٩

Adopt this attitude so that you might attain-reap the fruits of perpetual success." [7:69]

تاکہ تم لوگ دائمی کامیاب اور سرخرو ہونے کے لئے کوشاں رہو"

[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

jkhan

Peace brother Mazhar..


So you insist and accept according to your understanding that different set of meanings for this clause is matching and you are satisfied? 

In that case I am not against you at all and it seems you have explored far beyond me on this subject and concluded...  Honestly I didn't explore like you have studied in this matter but my inner self still propel me to take one meaning for this clause.. Your choices of meanings that you furnished I like them and it seems suits but it seems it is better keep one one clause..
Even if you say for all clauses as "So which of the executions of your Lord you both deny" .. I am sure this clause would befit to all occurences... But if you apply different set of meaning and that' befit but it may not what God meant... That's key here.. Choose what God meant in his verses not what we like... For that we need guidance from God to go for the exactness of God's verses...
Thank you brought lot of light to this topic and it think it would help anyone who wants study about this clause.. Let truth remain and let truth reach us...

May Allah guide you and me and all who deserves it..