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Did God create us from His soul? Quran 4:1

Started by nimnimak_11, December 12, 2022, 01:03:18 AM

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nimnimak_11

Peace all

O mankind! Be aware/mindful of your Lord the One Who created you from a soul single and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them men many and women. And fear Allah (through) Whom you ask [with it] and the wombs. Indeed, Allah is over you Ever-Watchful. (Quran 4:1)

I think many (if not all) of you will be quick to say God is without a zawj so that the soul in 4:1 is not God's. But I think the perfect and the imperfect are a pair. I think Quran explicitly states that God has no partners or companions or sons/walad. But it does not state that God does not have a zawj or a son/ibn. I also don't get how God could create a soul independently of HIs soul. From a nafs vahid suggests God to me.

What do you think?

Also for the Arabic speakers amongst you, does Arabic distinguish between lower case letters and upper case letters? If no, then who decides what to capitalise? For example, if the he is in reference to other than God, it is not capitalised. But if it is in reference to God, it is capitalised "He". There is also the notion of We. I want to know why the word soul in 4:1 is not capitalised.

Peace

Emre_1974tr

Unlike the traditional Islamic doctrine which is under the influence of sects and hadith fabrications, in the real Islamic doctrine of the Quran people have NO ghosts/ souls/ spirits. People do NOT have a divine component, a soul, a spirit nor a ghost.

Everything created in the universe is material, physical and real, NOT an illusion. (for example the first man Adam was made from clay element and the jinn was made from fire element)

Paradise  and Hell are NOT mental delusions. They are "physical" places created in another universe.

Unfortunately, terms such as soul- spirit (an immortal divine component, a ghost that can exist on its own without the body even after death) have succeed to enter Islam due to wrong translations -which are made under the influence of hadith fabrications- and Islamic mysticism (sufism). But in the original text of the Quran (Arabic version), they are NOT available.
In the Quran, people have "nafs", which is the equivalent of "life energy", "ego", "character". People are born, they die and they will be "physically" recreated in the Hereafter:

Does the human being think that We will not gather his bones? Indeed, We were able to make his fingertips (The Resurrection, 75: 3-4)

As also can be seen in the verses, people do NOT have souls/ spirits, they only have "nefs", which dies together with the bodily functions. And as again can be understood from the verses "most" of the people will be recreated in the Judgment Day. We use the word "most" because there are some exceptions. The Quran gives the examples of very meritorious people, such as martyrs or prophets and on the other edge some deadly sinners, such as the Pharaoh who committed outrage to his people.

These exceptional people have already started to reap what they have sown. They are either rewarded in Heaven (physically) or punished in Hell (physically).

Examples to the righteous who go to Heaven immediately after their death:

· Do not count that those who are killed in the sake of God are dead. No, they are alive at their Lord receiving provisions. Happy with what God has granted them from His favor, and they rejoice for those who have yet to follow them. There is no fear over them nor do they grieve. (The Family of Imran, 3: 169-170)

· A man came running from the farthest part of the city, saying: "O my people, follow the messengers. Follow those who do not ask you for any wage, and are guided. Why should I not serve the One who initiated me, and to Him is your ultimate return? Shall I take gods besides Him? If the Gracious intends any harm for me, their intercession cannot help me in the least, nor can they save me. Then I would be clearly astray. I have acknowledged your Lord, so listen to me! It was said, "Enter Paradise." He said "Oh, how I wish my people only knew of what my Lord has forgiven me, and made me of the honored ones."We did not send down upon his people after him soldiers from the sky; for there was no need to send them down. For all it took was one scream, whereupon they were stilled. (36:20-29)

Example to the disbelievers who committed "deadly" sins and tyranny:

· So God protected him from the evil of what they schemed, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution. The fire, which they will be exposed to morning and evening, and on the day when the moment is established: "Admit the people of Pharaoh into the most severe of the retribution." (The Believer, 40: 45-46)

And the following verses refer to the common/ordinary people, possibly the majority of the disbelievers:

· The horn will be blown, whereupon they will rise from the graves rushing towards their Lord. They will say, "Woe to us. Who has resurrected us from our resting place? This is what the Gracious had promised. The messengers were truthful!" (Ya sin, 36: 51-52)

In the Quran the word "Spirit" only refers to the "Holy Ghost/Spirit" and to the messages It brought. For example:

We gave Moses the book, and after him, We sent the messengers. Later We gave Jesus son of Mary the clear proofs, and We supported Him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your minds do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny, and a group of them you kill! (2:87)

Such messengers, We have preferred some to others; some of them talked to God, and He raised some of them in ranks, and We gave Jesus son of Mary the proofs and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Had God wished, the people after them would not have fought after the proofs had come to them, but they disputed, some of them acknowledged and some of them did not appreciate. Had God wished they would not have fought, but God does whatever He wishes. (2:253)

God said, "O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age; and I taught you the book and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said, "This is an obvious magic!" (5:110)

He sends down the angels with the Spirit by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants: "That you shall warn that there is no god but I, so be aware of Me." (16:2)

They ask you concerning the Spirit. Say, "The Spirit is from the command of my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little." (17:85)
It was sent down with the trusted Spirit. (26:193)

Possessor of the highest ranks, the One with the Throne. He sends the Spirit with His command upon whom He wills from His servants, so that they may warn of the day of Summoning. (40:15)

You will not find any people who acknowledge God and the Last day befriending those who oppose God and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees trust into their hearts, and supports them with a Spirit from Him, and He admits them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath, wherein they will abide. God is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of God. Most assuredly, the party of God are the winners. (58:22)

The day when the Spirit and the angels stand in line, none will speak unless the Gracious permits him and he speaks what is true. (78:38)

Some dangers of thinking that people have spirits/ souls:

- Having a belief that people have spirits often leads up to the sanctification of the humans. It leads people to associate himself / herself with God.

- It also contributes to building up a strong belief of spiritual evolution. As a result of this false belief, in order to evolve spiritually, people praise suffering and pain. When they encounter a disastrous situation, instead of getting out of it, they welcome it and take it as a reward. However, according to the Quran, the bad things that come to us are either to test us or a result of our sins, our own malignancy.

- Spiritualists regard life as a school where we, as students, learn and mature. These people maintain that suffering / pain is a must for spiritual evolution. Thus, it turns the evil into hidden heroes having a special (key) role in the spiritual evolution process. Those who can read between the lines can easily realize that it glorifies the evil (even Satan). Also spiritualists
tolerate the immoral behaviors of the ones who are not spiritually evolved (!)

- Belief in the spirits opens the door to reincarnation, which means that we will be different creatures (different gender, different personality, different appearance etc.) in our other lives (!) In other words, it means that a person that dies is gone forever, which is actually a very materialistic point of view again if you read between the lines.

- Some spiritualists think that death is something positive as spirit confined to the physical body will be set free and unite with God and become one. This deviant view also praises suicides.

- People, who believe that people have spirits, mostly swap the belief for the Judgment Day with reincarnation and thus, they reject the belief in reward and punishment in the afterlife and eliminate Heaven and Hell, attributing symbolic meanings to both. In addition, they adopt ascetic lifestyles and scorn the beauties, provisions God gives us (in this world and in the other world).

- People who believe in the spirits are more likely to be cheated by the jinns.


Salaam
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Emre_1974tr

Quote from: Emre_1974tr on December 12, 2022, 04:49:35 AM
Unlike the traditional Islamic doctrine which is under the influence of sects and hadith fabrications, in the real Islamic doctrine of the Quran people have NO ghosts/ souls/ spirits. People do NOT have a divine component, a soul, a spirit nor a ghost.

Everything created in the universe is material, physical and real, NOT an illusion. (for example the first man Adam was made from clay element and the jinn was made from fire element)

Paradise and Hell are NOT mental delusions. They are "physical" places created in another universe.

Unfortunately, terms such as soul- spirit (an immortal divine component, a ghost that can exist on its own without the body even after death) have succeed to enter Islam due to wrong translations -which are made under the influence of hadith fabrications- and Islamic mysticism (sufism). But in the original text of the Quran (Arabic version), they are NOT available.
In the Quran, people have "nafs", which is the equivalent of "life energy", "ego", "character". People are born, they die and they will be "physically" recreated in the Hereafter:

Does the human being think that We will not gather his bones? Indeed, We were able to make his fingertips (The Resurrection, 75: 3-4)

As also can be seen in the verses, people do NOT have souls/ spirits, they only have "nefs", which dies together with the bodily functions. And as again can be understood from the verses "most" of the people will be recreated in the Judgment Day. We use the word "most" because there are some exceptions. The Quran gives the examples of very meritorious people, such as martyrs or prophets and on the other edge some deadly sinners, such as the Pharaoh who committed outrage to his people.

These exceptional people have already started to reap what they have sown. They are either rewarded in Heaven (physically) or punished in Hell (physically).

Examples to the righteous who go to Heaven immediately after their death:

· Do not count that those who are killed in the sake of God are dead. No, they are alive at their Lord receiving provisions. Happy with what God has granted them from His favor, and they rejoice for those who have yet to follow them. There is no fear over them nor do they grieve. (The Family of Imran, 3: 169-170)

· A man came running from the farthest part of the city, saying: "O my people, follow the messengers. Follow those who do not ask you for any wage, and are guided. Why should I not serve the One who initiated me, and to Him is your ultimate return? Shall I take gods besides Him? If the Gracious intends any harm for me, their intercession cannot help me in the least, nor can they save me. Then I would be clearly astray. I have acknowledged your Lord, so listen to me! It was said, "Enter Paradise." He said "Oh, how I wish my people only knew of what my Lord has forgiven me, and made me of the honored ones."We did not send down upon his people after him soldiers from the sky; for there was no need to send them down. For all it took was one scream, whereupon they were stilled. (36:20-29)

Example to the disbelievers who committed "deadly" sins and tyranny:

· So God protected him from the evil of what they schemed, while the people of Pharaoh have incurred the worst retribution. The fire, which they will be exposed to morning and evening, and on the day when the moment is established: "Admit the people of Pharaoh into the most severe of the retribution." (The Believer, 40: 45-46)

And the following verses refer to the common/ordinary people, possibly the majority of the disbelievers:

· The horn will be blown, whereupon they will rise from the graves rushing towards their Lord. They will say, "Woe to us. Who has resurrected us from our resting place? This is what the Gracious had promised. The messengers were truthful!" (Ya sin, 36: 51-52)

In the Quran the word "Spirit" only refers to the "Holy Ghost/Spirit" and to the messages It brought. For example:

We gave Moses the book, and after him, We sent the messengers. Later We gave Jesus son of Mary the clear proofs, and We supported Him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your minds do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny, and a group of them you kill! (2:87)

Such messengers, We have preferred some to others; some of them talked to God, and He raised some of them in ranks, and We gave Jesus son of Mary the proofs and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Had God wished, the people after them would not have fought after the proofs had come to them, but they disputed, some of them acknowledged and some of them did not appreciate. Had God wished they would not have fought, but God does whatever He wishes. (2:253)

God said, "O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age; and I taught you the book and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said, "This is an obvious magic!" (5:110)

He sends down the angels with the Spirit by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants: "That you shall warn that there is no god but I, so be aware of Me." (16:2)

They ask you concerning the Spirit. Say, "The Spirit is from the command of my Lord, and the knowledge you were given was but very little." (17:85)
It was sent down with the trusted Spirit. (26:193)

Possessor of the highest ranks, the One with the Throne. He sends the Spirit with His command upon whom He wills from His servants, so that they may warn of the day of Summoning. (40:15)

You will not find any people who acknowledge God and the Last day befriending those who oppose God and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees trust into their hearts, and supports them with a Spirit from Him, and He admits them into paradises with rivers flowing beneath, wherein they will abide. God is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of God. Most assuredly, the party of God are the winners. (58:22)

The day when the Spirit and the angels stand in line, none will speak unless the Gracious permits him and he speaks what is true. (78:38)

Some dangers of thinking that people have spirits/ souls:

- Having a belief that people have spirits often leads up to the sanctification of the humans. It leads people to associate himself / herself with God.

- It also contributes to building up a strong belief of spiritual evolution. As a result of this false belief, in order to evolve spiritually, people praise suffering and pain. When they encounter a disastrous situation, instead of getting out of it, they welcome it and take it as a reward. However, according to the Quran, the bad things that come to us are either to test us or a result of our sins, our own malignancy.

- Spiritualists regard life as a school where we, as students, learn and mature. These people maintain that suffering / pain is a must for spiritual evolution. Thus, it turns the evil into hidden heroes having a special (key) role in the spiritual evolution process. Those who can read between the lines can easily realize that it glorifies the evil (even Satan). Also spiritualists
tolerate the immoral behaviors of the ones who are not spiritually evolved (!)

- Belief in the spirits opens the door to reincarnation, which means that we will be different creatures (different gender, different personality, different appearance etc.) in our other lives (!) In other words, it means that a person that dies is gone forever, which is actually a very materialistic point of view again if you read between the lines.

- Some spiritualists think that death is something positive as spirit confined to the physical body will be set free and unite with God and become one. This deviant view also praises suicides.

- People, who believe that people have spirits, mostly swap the belief for the Judgment Day with reincarnation and thus, they reject the belief in reward and punishment in the afterlife and eliminate Heaven and Hell, attributing symbolic meanings to both. In addition, they adopt ascetic lifestyles and scorn the beauties, provisions God gives us (in this world and in the other world).

- People who believe in the spirits are more likely to be cheated by the jinns.


Salaam

1- Spirit is revelation,

2- holy spirit (the angel messenger conveying the message, revelation angel)

3- and revelation book (Quran).

Spirit= revelation.

Let's give examples.

1- Revelation
Quran [15:29] "So when I perfect him, and blow of My Spirit in him, you shall fall prostrate to him."

2- Revelation Angel (Cebrail).
Quran 19:17. Thus, she kept herself in seclusion from people. Then We sent to her Our spirit, and it appeared before her in the form of a perfect man.

3- Revelation Book/Quran
Quran 42:52 And thus We have revealed to you an inspiration of Our command. You did not know what is the Book or [what is] faith, but We have made it a light by which We guide whom We will of Our servants. And indeed, [O Muhammad], you guide to a straight path -

spirit = revelation.
And basic verses in our body like Adam:

Quran 30:30So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.

We are obliged to direct the truth through the verses inside.
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nimnimak_11

Thanks for the reply Emre

My focus was more on whether God created us from His soul or not.

Something you said I wanted to comment on:

QuoteAs a result of this false belief, in order to evolve spiritually, people praise suffering and pain.

I acknowledge that suffering for the sake of suffering is madness/irrational/evil (something Satan would encourage).

Two are unfair towards God. One wants to be punished. The other should be punished but doesn't want to be punished. Who is punished? What does pleasure in pain look like? The idea of someone willing to suffer in order to make amends (or maybe even to progress from a lesser state to a greater state), is praiseworthy/beautiful/support-worthy/appreciateable.

Repentance: Three are unfair towards God. The first wants to be punished. The second should be punished but doesn't want to be punished. The third is being punished/deprived missing out but he is happy to continue as is.

good logic

Peace.
"They ask you about the "RUH" SAY: The RUH is from GOD s commands"

Now "Wa Nafakha Fihi Min RUHIHI" . So RUH is GOD s laws. i.e  Humans are made from GOD s laws_Prefect Science and knowledge- software of GOD that makes and changes the creations.
GOD goes with His laws, they are one unit. GOD  can do anything as He possesses laws and perfect Science/knowledge to create what He wants.
The physics and Mathematics and all the Sciences that shape the universe and the creations on it are another GOD s "RUH"/Laws.

So GOD and everything else are separate but connected through the need of all the created for GOD s RUH
In short , GOD is a super perfect Scientist and His Science does everything He wishes to do.Think of GOD s super brain and knowledge containing all the laws required to do anything  for good reasons .
Nothing can exist without these laws of GOD. i.e GOD and His laws.
My understanding.
GOD bless.
Peace
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
[url="https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28"]https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?p=28[/url]

Nom de plume

Quote from: nimnimak_11 on December 12, 2022, 01:03:18 AM
I think Quran explicitly states that God has no partners or companions or sons/walad. But it does not state that God does not have a zawj or a son/ibn. I also don't get how God could create a soul independently of HIs soul. From a nafs vahid suggests God to me.

What do you think?

Also for the Arabic speakers amongst you, does Arabic distinguish between lower case letters and upper case letters? If no, then who decides what to capitalise? For example, if the he is in reference to other than God, it is not capitalised. But if it is in reference to God, it is capitalised "He". There is also the notion of We. I want to know why the word soul in 4:1 is not capitalised.

peace,

walad is not son, applies either gender offspring or designated heir (adopted)

4:11  instructed you (pl.)  the God in  awlādikum/offspring yours (male/female)

Waw-Lam-Dal = to beget, give birth

below mentions attributing sons and daughters

6:100 and attribute they of to him banina/sons wabanatin/and daughters
6:101 ... how being to him walad and not it be to him companion his?

to interpret walad as son also infers possibility of daughters
53:19 have so seen you l-lata/the idol (goddess) wal-uza

no capitalization in Arabic use context

4:1 O you the people heeds ye of lord yours the one creation you (pl.) from nafs single (f) and creation from it (f)  spouse its (f) and disperse from them dual menfolk of many and womenfolk ...


nimnimak_11

Quote from: Nom de plume on December 12, 2022, 09:17:17 PM
peace,

walad is not son, applies either gender offspring or designated heir (adopted)

4:11  instructed you (pl.)  the God in  awlādikum/offspring yours (male/female)

Waw-Lam-Dal = to beget, give birth

below mentions attributing sons and daughters

6:100 and attribute they of to him banina/sons wabanatin/and daughters
6:101 ... how being to him walad and not it be to him companion his?

to interpret walad as son also infers possibility of daughters
53:19 have so seen you l-lata/the idol (goddess) wal-uza

no capitalization in Arabic use context

4:1 O you the people heeds ye of lord yours the one creation you (pl.) from nafs single (f) and creation from it (f)  spouse its (f) and disperse from them dual menfolk of many and womenfolk ...

Thank you for the reply. It benefitted me.

Abdun Nur

Amity,

only two things exist, consciousness and the product of consciousness, therefore to experience a shared reality of conscious thought, only a single fractally structured consciousness can exist, if you'd like to consider this further:

https://earthcoinage.com/about-us/

This means there is no god, only a single consciousness.

Jafar

Quote from: Abdun Nur on December 20, 2022, 02:36:01 AM
only two things exist, consciousness and the product of consciousness, therefore to experience a shared reality of conscious thought, only a single fractally structured consciousness can exist, if you'd like to consider this further:
This means there is no god, only a single consciousness.

It depends on how one define what the word "god" means..

Due to confusion caused by "poly-theist" and/or religion, which define "god" as an entity/being/soul, thus has a border that separate itself with "others" (ie: the notion that there is something that "god made" which is different than "human made"), I tend to look for some crucial definition that cannot be mistaken with something else.
And it's the definition of INFINITE or BORDER-LESS or BOUNDARY-LESS (No border and no boundary)

If the word "god" and/or "consciousness" or any other words such as "XYZ" is defined as "something that is infinite" then it cannot be mistaken that we're talking about the same thing. Because there cannot be more than one thing that is infinite.

For this occasion, let's use the word "consciousness" where in "consciousness" is the thing that is infinite.

Consciousness is infinite.
As such there is no such as thing as my consciousness, your consciousness, their consciousness, as consciousness has no border that separate one consciousness with other consciousnesses. There is only consciousness.

And how it relate to a "soul" let's explain this metaphorically, let's use "air" as a metaphor.
Consciousness is like air, it has no border yet it permeate all things.
There is no "my air", "your air", "their air", there is just "air".

And the "soul" is like "soap bubble".


Thanks to the soap bubbles, the air confined within a soap bubble can have a border that separate between itself (me) and other air confined in other soap bubbles (others). The soap bubble can split to become multiple soap bubbles (soul splitting) and multiple bubbles can also merged together to become a bigger bubbles (soul merging). Yet regardless of it's unique shape and size, each bubbles are essentially the same, it's a confined air, confined by the wall of the bubbles.

After many events of splitting and merging, the wall of the bubbles shall become thinner and thinner.
Until finally it will pop!
Releasing the confined air within the bubble to rejoin the all, infinite, borderless air once again.

As thus, the bubbles are an illusion / virtual / temporary / not really exist.
It is the air that truly exist.
Separation of finite amount of air through bubbles are illusion, the air within the bubble will eventually unite with the all, infinite, borderless air.

Thus "soul" are temporary / illusion / virtual, only consciousness that truly exist.
And everything, in essence, is consciousness.

"Brahman Satyam, Jagat Mithya", a yogi once said, which means "The universe is an illusion, only Brahman that is truly exist". Where in Brahman is defined as something that is infinite and has no border.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman