Author Topic: How do you define Submission?  (Read 1356 times)

Shah Khan

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How do you define Submission?
« on: November 14, 2022, 09:58:40 PM »
May God Shower his peace, mercy and blessings upon you all.

Can any Arabic speaker define the words Deen and Madhab?

Nowadays Muslims use the word Deen for religion and Madhab for a school of thought and I have been told by an Arabic speaker that this translation of Deen as a religion in modern term, is wrong.

I have been told by an Arabic speaker that Deen does not mean Religion, but instead it means a System (maybe more like politico-socio-sconomic system) and Madhab means Religion.

Because there are 2 verses in the Quran.

Quranic verse 2:62

"Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve."

Translation of Pickthall

Quranic verse 3:85

"And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter."

Translation of Pickthall

At first we can read in the Quranic verse 2:62 God is telling us that anyone who believes in God, in the hereafter and along with that they do righteous deeds, they will have no suffering on the day of judgement.

but then again in the other Quranic verse 3:85, God tells us that No Deen will be accepted by God, except the submission to God (Islam)

Traditionalist Hadith and Fiqh follower Muslims say that 'as long as someone has not heard the message of Quran and they believe in god and the last day and do righteous deeds, they will not be suffered on the judgement day.

But as they hear about the message of Islam, No matter they believe in One God, believe in the Last day, do righteous day, all that will be in vain If they do not pronounce Shahadah'

Now to me, this doesn't fit in my mind because one can be a Monotheist Christian, Jew or a Zoroastrian or a Monotheist Hindu (yes there are Monotheist Hindu), believing in the Last day and do righteous deeds
while one can be a traditionalist hadith and fiqh follower Muslim and do actions that are against God's Laws (killing, adultery, etc etc) and also theres no mention of Shadah in the Quran.

What I understand by the verses is that:

Islam (Submission) is a Deen (System); and

no matter what someone's Madhab (Religion/school of thought) is,

as long as they Submit to God and God's word's (Quran) they will be rewarded on the day of judgement, irrespective of their religion.

From Historical records, what I've understand is that Islam (Submission to God) was more of a Social and Political movement involving Pre-Islamic Arab monotheists, Monotheist, Christians and Monotheist Jews during Muhammad's time against the Paganism and Jahiliyyah of Arabiyah and against the Clerics of Christians and Jews before it turned into a religion by the traditionalist Muslims.

May God reward all of you with Goodness.

Wakas

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2022, 01:49:52 AM »
peace,


According to my studies:

"deen" means that which is due, hence its meanings of obligation, indebtedness, requital, system



From: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

= Dal-Ya-Nun = obedience/submissiveness, servility, religion, high/elevated/noble/glorious rank/condition/state, took/receive a loan or borrowed upon credit, become indebted, in debt, under the obligation of a debt, contract a debt, repay/reimburse a loan, rule/govern/manage it, possess/own it, become habituated/accustomed to something, confirmation, death (because it is a debt everyone must pay), a particular law/statute, system, custom/habit/business, a way/course/manner of conduct/acting, repayment/compensation.
Daynun (n.): Debt; lending.
Tadaayantum (prf. 2nd. p. m. plu. VI.): You transact.
La Yadiinuuna (imp. 3rd. p. m. plu.): They do not subscribe, do not observe (religious laws).
Diin: Requital; judgement; faith; law; obedience.
Madyiinuun/ Madyiiniin: Requitted.

dana vb. (I)
impf. act. 9:29
pcple. pass. 37:53, 56:86

dayn n.m. 2:282, 4:11, 4:12, 4:12, 4:12

din n.m. 1:4, 2:132, 2:193, 2:217, 2:217, 2:256, 3:19, 3:24, 3:73, 3:83, 3:85, 4:46, 4:125, 4:146, 4:171, 5:3, 5:3, 5:3, 5:54, 5:57, 5:77, 6:70, 6:137, 6:159, 6:161, 7:29, 7:51, 8:39, 8:49, 8:72, 9:11, 9:12, 9:29, 9:33, 9:33, 9:36, 9:122, 10:22, 10:104, 10:105, 12:40, 12:76, 15:35, 16:52, 22:78, 24:2, 24:25, 24:55, 26:82, 29:65, 30:30, 30:30, 30:32, 30:43, 31:32, 33:5, 37:20, 38:78, 39:2, 39:3, 39:11, 39:14, 40:14, 40:26, 40:65, 42:13, 42:13, 42:21, 48:28, 48:28, 49:16, 51:6, 51:12, 56:56, 60:8, 60:9, 61:9, 61:9, 70:26, 74:46, 82:9, 82:15, 82:17, 82:18, 83:11, 95:7, 98:5, 98:5, 107:1, 109:6, 109:6, 110:2,

tadayana vb. (VI) perf. act. 2:282

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages: 108, 109, 110, 111, 112  ##  http://ejtaal.net/aa/#q=dyn

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Nom de plume

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2022, 05:58:25 AM »
one way to submit is to admit when you are wrong

another way is to admit and say you do not know


Mazhar

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2022, 06:36:58 AM »
Root: د ى ن

Words from this Root in the Grand Qur’ān:

a) Total occurrences: 101

b) No of constructions: 25

Nouns: 23; Recurrence: 99; Verbs: 2 [Form-I: 1; Form-VI: 1]

Semantic Domain: Constitution - Code of Conduct - Requital; And Debt Obligation



This verbal noun occurs: 92 times in the Divine Discourse, individually or in prepositional and Possessive Phrases. Since it is Verbal Noun signifying action and state-condition it has no dual and plural, or gender; its verbs are: دَانَ يَدِينُ .

In encyclopedic articles and Arabic-English dictionaries we will apparently find "diversity of meanings", like "Ruler", "obedience", or "servant-ness"; "judgment", or "retribution-requital". Though these words seem portraying different semantic fields, but when we reflect on these words with reference to our society and the state, they are all inalienably inter-related. If we encompass all these, we can combine their significance by the phrase "the code - system of life and the universe". It is understood that the right and authority for devising - promulgating a system rests with the Creator of life and matter. Even the polytheists accept and say the universe is created by Allah the Exalted Who is Mighty and absolutely Dominant. This perception is evident from the following proclamation:



See for details:
https://haqeeqat.pk/roots/(477).htm

Mohammed.

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2022, 09:47:10 PM »
peace, & same to you

To me, submission is believing/knowing/acknowledging (the fact) that everything is by God, and hence orienting one's life accordingly. And God has sent down guidance.

For example, being thankful is a form of submission.
Taking this very moment of reading & writing, being aware that I'm able to do/experience/enjoy it only because God created/made all these arrangements (life, humans, brains/minds, eyes, hands, languages, the pleasure of seeking &acquiring knowledge etc).. Like that, being (or trying to be) aware & thankful always.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

almarh0m

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2022, 04:35:08 AM »
 Peace

Are we still in the year 2002 or is it 2022 now?

Submission to me is nothing more than abiding by the law of god . The Rules of Law or the law that applies wherever one's residing, such a person or people is called a law abiding citizen( s). So in short, a submitter is = person or people who has committed himself/herself to always obey the law. Or, they can be called muslims in Quranic Arabic.
Please see: 2/131 ( Where God/Allah said to Prophet Ibrahim to submit.

Peace

"He who Created me, it is He who Guides me"

Mohammed.

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2022, 04:06:43 AM »
'Being aware & thankful' is not only with heart/words, it could reflect in one's actions too. i.e. the best use of our blessings (atleast in such a way that it do not invite God's dislike/wrath).
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself -17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Jafar

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2022, 11:26:34 AM »
Deen is attitude / opinion / perception.
Deen of islam (totally different than religion of Islam) are best expressed on a statement that can be found in the Gospel.
"Our Father, Let Your will be done, on earth as it's in heaven".

Thus the reason why Jesus is a muslim, those who show / expressed / practice the attitude of islam.
Jesus did not believe in the Quran, member of Islam religion, perform testimony to Muhammad nor encircling the Kabba yet he shows the attitude of "ACCEPTANCE", acceptance of our father's will. The father / source of everything.

I know that such definition does not support those who are interested to seek power and control over others, such as Sultan, Caliph, King, Emperor, Cult Leader, Imam, Sheikh, Rabbis, Clerics, Warlord, Politician etc.. That's why they change the definition of 'deen' to be a 'religion' as they use religion as a 'system' or 'tool' to exert control over others through fear. They created a religion and named it as Islam.


Fusion

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2022, 11:08:08 PM »
To Shah Khan, from the name i hope you understand the language,

Worth listening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6JLUdIYzE8

Regards
Best Regards,

good logic

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2022, 06:46:58 AM »
Brother Jafar.

Everybody submits to something willingly or unwillingly
For example who is not submitting to living here on earth? At least for now . There are some laws that GOD put in place in our universe that we are unable to reverse or do without.
By the way brother, do you want to team up with me in business and make a buck or two? Like your priests and leaders of religions are doing!
 We will create a religious social media business to control others and tell them GOD has decreed this and call it Faithbook?

On a serious side lets not. You seem a decent guy. I better not corrupt you.
Anyway hope you are doing fine these trying days for all of us, you know the cost of living and all the tricks that your fellow humans in charge are coming up with to make life hard and expensive . They want us to submit to their unjust systems.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Jafar

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2022, 06:02:12 PM »
By the way brother, do you want to team up with me in business and make a buck or two? Like your priests and leaders of religions are doing!
 We will create a religious social media business to control others and tell them GOD has decreed this and call it Faithbook?

Faithbook the only social media that is divine.
Other social medias are not divine as such they are much inferior to Faithbook.

Upon signing up one need to declare that there is no social media other than Faithbook.
For those who do not disable their other social media account (such as the heathen facebook, instagram, twitter etc..) will be tortured for all eternity when they die. Because upon their death they will be questioned by angels, and the first question is "What is your social media?" Wrong answer to that question will lead to torture..

Moving on, since Faithbook is the only social media accepted by God, those who either refuse to sign up or still maintain their profile on other heathen social medias are deemed allowed to be murdered, their blood is halal. Because they're the enemy of God. And fighting for God which means fighting for the superiority of the one true divine social media approved by God, that is Faithbook is a duty that one owe to God. Those who did so will earn the reward of 72 virgins (male or female virgin is available) in the after life. And those who did not will earn the wrath of God and be tortured for all eternity.


Euphoric

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2022, 01:08:34 PM »
Jesus was a polytheist.

You overlooked the verses he claimed He was God and will be the one to judge mankind.

Deen is attitude / opinion / perception.
Deen of islam (totally different than religion of Islam) are best expressed on a statement that can be found in the Gospel.
"Our Father, Let Your will be done, on earth as it's in heaven".

Thus the reason why Jesus is a muslim, those who show / expressed / practice the attitude of islam.
Jesus did not believe in the Quran, member of Islam religion, perform testimony to Muhammad nor encircling the Kabba yet he shows the attitude of "ACCEPTANCE", acceptance of our father's will. The father / source of everything.

Euphoric

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2022, 01:15:58 PM »
Can any Arabic speaker define the words Deen and Madhab?

Deen can be translated as religion. Religion can include socioeconomic ways within it.

Madhhab is a course of conduct. Its root meaning is a pathway.

Fusion

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2022, 01:59:38 PM »
Deen can be translated as religion. Religion can include socioeconomic ways within it.

Madhhab is a course of conduct. Its root meaning is a pathway.

Is there any single verse in Quran which in arabic has the exact word "madhab"?
Best Regards,

Jafar

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2022, 08:43:12 PM »
Jesus was a polytheist.

You overlooked the verses he claimed He was God and will be the one to judge mankind.


There are two polarity at play, it's the game of the universe, Light vs Dark, Jedi vs Sith.
Yet it requires both to dance, the dark is unknowingly and unintentionally helping the light to shine through.

As such the dark will offer it's own deen / perception which in opposition to the deen / perception offered by the light.
And you can find both in one bundle, named it Bible, Quran or whatever, both exist there.
Some named it as 'corruption' yet I named it as 'enhancement' by the dark.

The characteristic of the deen/perception offered by the dark usually are around 3 things: Pride (superiority), Power (control over others) and Hatred. While the the light offered the opposite of that.

Thus choose the one that resonate with you best.

This deen / perception:
"Our Father, Let Your will be done, on earth as it's in heaven".
Resonate well with me and that is the core characteristic for the deen of islam. (totally different than the Religion of Islam where Pride, Power and Hatred can easily be found)

Shah Khan

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2022, 07:49:54 PM »
To Shah Khan, from the name i hope you understand the language,

Worth listening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6JLUdIYzE8

Regards

Even in this video, Allamah Ghulam Ahmad Parvez (may God be pleased with him) says Deen means a political or Social system and mazhab means a religion. Islam is not a religion (mazhab), Islam is a System (Deen).

In another video he explains more:

1. Religion focus on individual success but a Social system focus on collective success.
2. Religion focus on rituals and worship but a Social system focus on the system in which everyone can live happily.
3. In deen (social system) ritual itself is not the focus but the focus is the outcome from the ritual that will build the society.

good logic

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2022, 03:26:26 AM »
Peace All.

A perfect system needs perfect knowledge of everything.
Hence, only GOD can possess such a system. GOD and all the  laws are one unit. GOD s laws-Science- is based on perfect knowledge, including  where,how and what to create. Once anything is created, the laws will be set and the outcome is decreed with full knowledge and a perfect system.

Now in this ,Islam is accepting that  this is   always the case and the only way.. i.e Submission of all creations to GOD s perfect system.

Islam is "with" GOD. GOD Alone has the authority and the means to do everything.

If one accepts any other system, there will be flaws in it. There is no existence without a system.

Who can offer a better system than the one who has all the power and all the knowledge?

GOD bless you all.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
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amin

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2022, 10:13:55 PM »
It can defined this way, whats not submission and whats submission,

I act on my own free will, no control no effect on what so ever with others, so theres no duty for me to serve others around me. Not submit. I am hiding the truth.

I act but it comes under His will, I call Him God/Allah, i submit to Him the total submission, its my duty to serve for the blessings i get in return. Peace of mind.

good logic

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2022, 07:12:27 AM »
Peace amin.

You acting on your free will and hiding the true submission to your creator is submitting unwillingly to him because you still have to live here on earth as a human with some constraints . You cannot change where and when you start your life.

Then one has to submit to another system of man or to your own desires and choices with your limited knowledge. i.e you are submitting to a lesser being with a lesser knowledge.

In other words the only logical and better way is to submit wholly and willingly to the creator.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

good logic

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2022, 10:25:50 PM »
"You" ,in my last post does not mean !you brother amin". It is general to any of us humans.
If we ponder in our day to day living and the choices we are making, the best choice for success is to submit to the lord of the universe by following His laws ,instructions and commands as best as we understand them from His message.
Or submit to our own system/s whatever we think is right for us besides GOD s system,. This can lead to failure.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
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Shah Khan

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2022, 10:27:38 PM »
Afaik, every pure guidance from God was destroyed by the Persian Sassanid Zoroastrian corrupt priests be it among the Sanatan Dharma, Buddhism, Jewish, Christianity or Islam. The Zoroastrian had this belief that besides themselves none other was a monotheistic believer and they were the only chosen ones by God. Thus the Quran rejects this doctrine and tells actions of all the religious people will be accepted in the sight of God as long as the Good deeds are done, they believe in one god and in the hereafter.

good logic

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Re: How do you define Submission?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2022, 11:13:14 PM »
The test started with the first human. Deviation from GOD s guidance also started from way back before the Persians  or Romans or...

Every generation has its deviators. We must learn a lesson from the past , and accept that we can also be at fault .

GOD s guidance is an open invitation to every human .Judging therefore , as far as we are concerned, can only be done by GOD Alone.

Past generations have what they worked for and we have what we work for.

Every generation has its own good and bad , its believers and disbelievers, its mixture  of the sincere and the pretender . We all have the potential to be in either side.Aware or unaware.
We can only try our best to work  to save our own neck. It is a hard task being tested..
Love in the hearts  can work wonder for us by teaching us forgiveness and tolerance. for all our brothers and sisters.
May the Lord shower us all with HIS mercy and forgiveness
GOD bless you all..
Peace.
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38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/