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7:113 26:41 inconsistent?

Started by Nom de plume, November 06, 2022, 08:05:20 AM

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Nom de plume

7:113  إِنَّ لَنَا لَأَجْرًا إِنْ كُنَّا نَحْنُ الْغَالِبِينَ
26:41  أَئِنَّ لَنَا لَأَجْرًا إِنْ كُنَّا نَحْنُ الْغَالِبِينَ


why they said different words used?

7:114 قَالَ نَعَمْ وَإِنَّكُمْ لَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ
26:42 قَالَ نَعَمْ وَإِنَّكُمْ إِذًا لَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ


why he said the extra word used?

Wakas

peace,
I think this has been discussed before but cant recall what was said, perhaps the search function will help.

Quote from: Nom de plume on November 06, 2022, 08:05:20 AM
7:113  إِنَّ لَنَا لَأَجْرًا إِنْ كُنَّا نَحْنُ الْغَالِبِينَ
26:41  أَئِنَّ لَنَا لَأَجْرًا إِنْ كُنَّا نَحْنُ الْغَالِبِينَ


why they said different words used?

My take would be is that THEY did not all say the same thing, some/one may have said one of those statements. I'm not an expert in Arabic but I wonder what is the study of when the Arabic states "THEY said X" i.e. do we take it literally in the sense that plural 3 or more people said the exact same thing? Or they had a discussion beforehand and all agreed to say one thing then one representative said that one thing on behalf of the whole group? I think both of these are unlikely. Thus is it simply giving the gist of what they said or what most said? Seems more likely to me.

Quote
7:114 قَالَ نَعَمْ وَإِنَّكُمْ لَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ
26:42 قَالَ نَعَمْ وَإِنَّكُمْ إِذًا لَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ


why he said the extra word used?

Obviously my reason above cannot work here since it is a singular speaker, so I would say Pharoah likely did not say what he said in the Arabic language of Quran so the author of Quran is relaying/translating what Pharoah said into Arabic, so if one has slightly different wording in Arabic that does not change the meaning of what was said then is it wrong? Unsure but I don't think so.

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

Mazhar

Points in time are different.


وَجَآءَ ٱلسَّحَرَةُ فِرْعَوْنَ

And the magicians arrived to the presence of Fir'aoun (Pharaoh).

اور جادوگر/فریب نظر کے شعبدہ باز فرعون کے پاس پہنچ گئے۔


قَالُوٓا۟ إِنَّ لَنَا لَأَجْرٙا إِن كُنَّا نَـحْنُ ٱلْغَٟلِبِيـنَ  .١١٣


They said to him: "Indeed a prize is certainly arranged for us, If we are the victorious" [7:113]

انہوں نے فرعون سے مخاطب ہو کر کہا"یقیناً ایک انعام آپ حضور کی جانب سے ہمارے لئے سرمایہ فخر ہو گا اگر ہم اس مقابلے میں غالب ہو گئے"۔


قَالَ نَعَمْ وَإِنَّكُـمْ لَمِنَ ٱلْمُقَرَّبِيـنَ .١١٤

He (Fir'aoun) replied: "Off course; and you people will certainly become the part of close-confidants." [7:114]

اس(فرعون)نے انہیں جواب دیا"ہاں انعام ملے گا۔صرف انعام نہیں بلکہ تم لوگ یقیناً ہمارے قریبی وفاداروں میں  شمار ہو جاؤ گے"۔


فَلَمَّا جَآءَ ٱلسَّحَرَةُ قَالُوا۟ لِفِرْعَوْنَ

In compliance to the directive issued when the Magicians came they said to Fir'aoun:

أَىٕ​ِنَّ لَنَا لَأَجْرٙا إِن كُنَّا نَـحْنُ ٱلْغَٟلِبِيـنَ .٤١

"Would there indeed for us be a sure reward if we were the victorious." [26:41]

قَالَ نَعَمْ وَإِنَّكُـمْ إِذٙا لَّمِنَ ٱلْمُقَرَّبِيـنَ .٤٢

He (Fir'aoun) replied, "Off course! and in that case as soon it would have happened you will certainly become part of close- confidants." [26:42]

Second time is the day of actual performance. This time it is question directly addressed to Pharoah,

In response clause: إِذٙا  is actually possessive phrase evident by tanween.
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Nom de plume

Quote from: Mazhar on November 06, 2022, 09:22:09 AM
Points in time are different.

Second time is the day of actual performance. This time it is question directly addressed to Pharoah,

In response clause: إِذٙا  is actually possessive phrase evident by tanween.

no see context some parts "verbatim" not separate times

7:111 ...
7:120 and fell down the magicians sajidina
7:121 said they "believe we of in lord the worlds inhabitants
7:122 lord Musa and Aaron"

26:38 ...
26:46 so fell down the magicians sajidina
26:47 said they "believe we in lord the worlds inhabitants
26:48 lord Musa and Aaron"


Nom de plume

Quote from: Wakas on November 06, 2022, 08:40:54 AM
...
I think both of these are unlikely. Thus is it simply giving the gist of what they said or what most said? Seems more likely to me.

...
so I would say Pharoah likely did not say what he said in the Arabic language of Quran so the author of Quran is relaying/translating what Pharoah said into Arabic, so if one has slightly different wording in Arabic that does not change the meaning of what was said then is it wrong? Unsure but I don't think so.

peace!

it's paraphrasing from their language in translation into Arabic
and also similar to how quoted you now left some words out

here it flips: "Musa and Aaron" to 20:70 "Aaron and Musa"

they could've possibly said "is there indeed ..."

أَئِنَّ إِنَّ لَنَا لَأَجْرًا إِنْ كُنَّا نَحْنُ الْغَالِبِينَ

7:113  إِنَّ لَنَا لَأَجْرًا إِنْ كُنَّا نَحْنُ الْغَالِبِينَ
26:41  أَئِنَّ لَنَا لَأَجْرًا إِنْ كُنَّا نَحْنُ الْغَالِبِينَ

perhaps has to do with phrases and their checksums? (I'll have to look into this)

Emre_1974tr

Not only is there a translation from the languages of the speakers, but they may have used more than one similar sentence.

The magicians may have asked the same question more than once and Pharaoh may have given more than one similar answer.

The Qur'an always uses these different expressions when retelling an event in different suras. It gives other complementary details and dialogues of the same event.
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Nom de plume

Quote from: Mazhar on November 06, 2022, 09:22:09 AM
Points in time are different.

Second time is the day of actual performance. This time it is question directly addressed to Pharoah,

In response clause: إِذٙا  is actually possessive phrase evident by tanween.

are they still two different episodes? why not recant what you wrote?

7:120 and fell down the magicians sajidina
7:121 said they "believe we of in lord the worlds inhabitants
7:122 lord Musa and Aaron"

26:46 so fell down the magicians sajidina
26:47 said they "believe we in lord the worlds inhabitants
26:48 lord Musa and Aaron"

like inheritance thread you rant never address the problem

Mazhar

Quote from: Nom de plume on November 16, 2022, 07:51:02 AM
are they still two different episodes? why not recant what you wrote?

7:120 and fell down the magicians sajidina
7:121 said they "believe we of in lord the worlds inhabitants
7:122 lord Musa and Aaron"

26:46 so fell down the magicians sajidina
26:47 said they "believe we in lord the worlds inhabitants
26:48 lord Musa and Aaron"

like inheritance thread you rant never address the problem

Dear your problem is that you are not prepared to learn the basic manners and protocol of reading a book and are not willing to learn. Do you know how a book is composed? Do you know word choice is according to rhetorical situation? Do you know episodes are read in keeping with time-frame of event and that accordingly is the word choice?

Now see the first time frame and concentrate on words:

وَأَرْسِلْ فِـى ٱلْمَدَآئِنِ حَٟشِـرِينَ .١١١

And send gatherers in the towns; [7:111]

اور آپ بستیوں میں  شعبدہ بازوں کو اکٹھا کرنے والوں کو بھیجیں۔

يَأْتُوكَ بِكُلِّ سَٟحِـرٛ عَلِيـمٛ .١١٢

They will come back to you along with every knowledgeable magician/illusionist/displayer of illusory tricks." [7:112]

وَجَآءَ ٱلسَّحَرَةُ فِرْعَوْنَ

And the magicians arrived to the presence of Fir'aoun (Pharaoh).


قَالُوٓا۟ إِنَّ لَنَا لَأَجْرٙا إِن كُنَّا نَـحْنُ ٱلْغَٟلِبِيـنَ  .١١٣


They said to him: "Indeed a prize is certainly arranged for us, If we are the victorious" [7:113]


قَالَ نَعَمْ وَإِنَّكُـمْ لَمِنَ ٱلْمُقَرَّبِيـنَ .١١٤

He (Fir'aoun) replied: "Off course; and you people will certainly become the part of close-confidants." [7:114]

Now see another occasion of the day when competition was to take place in public:


فَجُمِعَ ٱلسَّحَرَةُ لِمِيقَٟتِ يَوْمٛ مَّعْلُومٛ .٣٨

In compliance to directive, the magicians - illusionists - demonstrators of illusory tricks were gathered at the appointed place on the known day—the day of the festival. [26:38]

وَقِيلَ لِلنَّاسِ هَلْ أَنتُـم مُّجْتَمِعُونَ .٣٩

And it was announced for general public whether "Are you people assembling — [26:39]

لَعَلَّنَا نَتَّبِــعُ ٱلسَّحَرَةَ إِن كَانُوا۟ هُـمُ ٱلْغَٟلِبِيـنَ .٤٠

So that we affectionately enjoy - admire the magicians if they were the victorious." [26:40]

فَلَمَّا جَآءَ ٱلسَّحَرَةُ قَالُوا۟ لِفِرْعَوْنَ

In compliance to the directive issued when the Magicians came they said to Fir'aoun:

أَىٕ​ِنَّ لَنَا لَأَجْرٙا إِن كُنَّا نَـحْنُ ٱلْغَٟلِبِيـنَ .٤١

"Would there indeed for us be a sure reward if we were the victorious." [26:41]

قَالَ نَعَمْ وَإِنَّكُـمْ إِذٙا لَّمِنَ ٱلْمُقَرَّبِيـنَ .٤٢

He (Fir'aoun) replied, "Off course! and in that case as soon it would have happened you will certainly become part of close- confidants." [26:42]

Pl start learning reading Arabic text. It will help you get rid of erroneous thoughts,
[url="http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm"]http://haqeeqat.pk/index.htm[/url]

Nom de plume

Quote from: Mazhar on November 16, 2022, 09:44:27 AM
Now see the first time frame and concentrate on words:

وَأَرْسِلْ فِـى ٱلْمَدَآئِنِ حَٟشِـرِينَ .١١١

And send gatherers in the towns; [7:111]

you have logic issues! same episode retold!

7:107 so cast staff his so when it is serpent clear
7:108 and took out hand his so when it is white to the onlookers
7:109 said l-mala-u/the council of folk Firawna "indeed this surely magician knower
7:110 intended that evicted you from land yours so what hath thou directing?"
7:111 said they "delay him and brother his wa-arsil/and sends in the town's gatherers
7:112 bring they you in each magician knower"

26:32 so cast staff his so when it is serpent clear
26:33 and took out hand his so when it is white to the onlookers
26:34 said lilmala-i/to the council hawlahu/around him "indeed this surely magician knower
26:35 intended that evicted you from land yours bisihrihi/with magic his so what hath thou directing?"
26:36 said they "delay him and brother his wa-ibath/and raises in the town's gatherers
26:37 bring they you in each magician knower"

7:113 and came the magicians Firawna said they
"inna/indeed for us surely reward if be we, we are the victors?"
7:114 said "yes and that you surely among those nearer"

26:41 so to what (when) came the magicians said they to Firawna
"a-inna/is there for us surely reward if be we, we are the victors?"
26:42 said "yes and that you idhan/then surely among those nearer"

7:117 and inspires we towards Musa that throw staff your so when it is caught what are falsifying
26:45 so cast Musa staff his so when it is caught what they are falsifying

7:120 and fell the magicians sājidīna
7:121 said they "believe we in lord the worlds inhabitants
7:122 lord Musa and Aaron"


26:46 so fell the magicians sājidīna
26:47 said they "believe we in lord the worlds inhabitants
26:48 lord Musa and Aaron"


7:123 said Firawna "believe you bihi/in it before that I permit to you? ...
7:124 surely severs I hands yours and feet yours of opposite sides
thumma/furthermore surely crucifies (impales) I you all together!"
7:125 said they "indeed we towards lord ours who returning"

26:49 said "believe you lahu/to him before that I permit to you? ...
surely severs I hands yours and feet yours of opposite sides
and surely crucifies (impales) I you all together!"
26:50 said they "/no dayra/hurt indeed we towards lord ours who returning"



Mazhar

//7:113 and came the magicians Firawna said they
"inna/indeed for us surely reward if be we, we are the victors?"
7:114 said "yes and that you surely among those nearer"

26:41 so to what (when) came the magicians said they to Firawna
"a-inna/is there for us surely reward if be we, we are the victors?"
26:42 said "yes and that you idhan/then surely among those nearer"//

It is non sense.

Why you do gimmicks. Episode is the same. Episode has parts, events.

Why you not learn reading Arabic text and some basics as how to read a book. You merely see individual words.

You understand not what is the difference of meanings and sense:

وَجَآءَ ٱلسَّحَرَةُ فِرْعَوْنَ

فَلَمَّا جَآءَ ٱلسَّحَرَةُ قَالُوا۟ لِفِرْعَوْنَ


You understand a text and episode only when you can visualize a scene.

The objective of a book is accomplished when its text creates an impression in the reader's mind. A powerful tool to achieve this objective is imagery, a figure of speech, which employs such words that create mental images in the mind of the reader. It makes the reader feel as if he is present in the very moment, right between the lines. Words that do not stimulate imagination are just symbols sprinkled on a blank piece of paper. Images and emotions are recreated by using vivid descriptions and comparisons with the help of sound words.

You seem know not the basics of reading a second language book, or are just jesting with the book.
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