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How do you define the following of Muhammad's footsteps?

Started by Shah Khan, October 20, 2022, 11:59:32 PM

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jkhan

Quote from: jkhan on June 02, 2023, 11:02:04 PM
My above question still stands..

......

Salam...

Let me bring you a wonderful verse my fellow people who follow hadith for you to without prejudice to reflect upon..

Before that let me explain simple example.. If I say to person A.. "Worship God alone and He is your Master" and listening to it if he worshiped God alone.. Then does it mean he obey me? Hmmm... It sounds so.. But in reality he not obeyed me.. But he obeyed God.. Coz what I told him is message /  Command of God, so following my instructions which was truth  of God resulted in obeying God. There is nothing other than obeying God.

4:58 "Indeed, Allah commands you to render trusts to whom they are due and when you judge between people to judge with justice. Excellent is that which Allah instructs you. Indeed, Allah is ever Hearing and Seeing.."

4:59 "O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree/differ over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

Let me clarify... OBEY ALLAH (always always always and no one else to obey but God,  how by obeying his message)

OBEY THE MESSENGER (null and void after message is fulfilled coz no messenger exists to Obey)

On that note, above two glaring verses in fact proves that Obey Allah is only what it matters and the phrase OBEY ALLAH AND OBEY THE MESSENGER  is valid only until the messenger completes God's message.. We are not a community who lives in a period to stand with above two excellent verses.. The reason I say with logic is that messenger is no more..  Is he? But message is.. Isn't it?
4:58 God says to those living people in Authority to judge with justice.. Had they judged with justice then those in authority OBEYED Allah.. Any doubt? So no dispute,  no disagreement..

4:59  states obey Allah and obey the Messenger and in Authority  .. But people have given option.. Yes.. If you disagree / differ  ... Why differ?  Believers  can only differ if those in authority not judged with justice.. So they in authority disobeyed Allah.. Then people under them no need to be silent coz  it is manifest according to verses of God Those in authority didn't judge with justice... So.. What believers have to do?  Yes. Excellent is what Allah has explained  ..if you differ over anything refer it to ALLAH.. How to refer it to Allah?  No way.. Unless a the Messenger of Allah is living and still delivering God's messages. So approach him (person Mohamed)  and tell there is injustice under these authorities coz they didn't obey God / They didn't follow the message while judging... Yes.. What's next step.. If the matter is something that is already in the message then messenger can point out by the message to the people and also in authority... So dispute solved.. But if the matter is not existing in the messages already revealed, the Messenger has to wait until God reveal to solve the issue  . That's why God says refer it to Allah..  So once the message is revealed let everyone follow what is revealed.. And let those in Authority obey... When those in authority has obeyed God's message and judged accordingly,  there cannot have any disagreement among believers unless believers disobey..

Yes.. That's the cream and essence which I comprehend..

Now.. No authority who who are believers and Law of God is executed in any country you live and on top of that there is no living Messenger to refer in order to refer it to Allah...
What is left with us is Quran... Refer it you will find answers.. But you can't disagree with those in authority coz they already have disobeyed God..

So in a nutshell obey Allah and messenger is in fact a valid phrase only while messenger was living and delivering God's message...
Now all you have to obey is Allah by being His message ..

Any constructive rejection to above is much welcome and I would in sha Allah happily respond... I will definitely disregard all irrelevant and illogical answers though.

Thank you for reading.. But reflect.. Exert some effort..

Salam..

The above verses are so glaring that obey Allah and obey the messenger is only meant for those who we living while the messenger was delivering messages.. Undeniable..

Suppose person ABC is living in London and he saw rape of an innocent girl or murder of a person etc.. And he realized that culprits were pardoned stating they are not wrong... But this persons eyewitness was discarded. Now he knows something was judged wrong by those in authority  .. Definitely... How this person refer this to Allah and refer this to the Messenger of Allah.. Can't you use common sense?
Chapter closed...  You can't obey a dead person a dead prophet... Can you obey your father if he is dead... You can only while he was living if you are obedient to him.. Messages God sent are to be followed...  For God's sake use your wits..

Suppose you live in States.. If you follow all rules of authority... Are you not an obedient citizen.. If you not follow, are you obedient? .
Try to grasp well that obedience only come from ACTIONS of a person in connection / in response with command/order/advice/instructions be it active actions or inactive actions.. (God says don't drink blood -- in active actions if you don't drink blood meanwhile God says give sadaqa/charity Active actions if you give)

Let me simplify like I have to simplify to an LKG.. Suppose you go to a river.. At the river bank a notice is posted "Fishing is not allowed for visitors"
So.. If you are a visitor, obey the message written on the board,  literally you are obeying the one who kept the message on the river bank for whatever the reasons he posted the message .. If you really someone who obeys Authorities then first obey by not fishing,  but if you want clarity why not allowed to fish then dig deep to get info why the board is placed in the first place.. But don't disobey and fish and then go and ask the authority.. Either you realized the reasons or not but you obeyed... Behind obedience a living source is there.. So if you obey God, follow Quran, you in fact obeyed God it means you respect God by taking the orders in to effect.. Then try to reflect his verses.. Same as "no fishing" board..

Thank you...  Of course God hurts disbelievers by His verses.. But it only gets them if they realize.. Yes God did hurt Abu  Lahab.. Yes God hurts disbelivers by saying hell  fire.. Yes God hurts previous scripture holders.. Yes God hurts backbite.. Yes God hurts so illegal sexual intercourse  etc etc etc.. Coz when truth is spoken it hurts... Truth CANNOT be spoken in a COMPROMISED language...

Fusion

I appreciate your passion Jkhan for Quranic teachings, and I acknowledge that you were addressing Sunni Muslims or Hadith followers specifically. However, as someone who wishes to engage in meaningful conversations and promote unity among Muslims, I felt it was appropriate to offer a respectful response.

It appears that you hold strong views and tend to label those who do not agree with you as not being true believers. I believe it is important to remind ourselves of the dangers of adopting an exclusionary approach and resorting to declaring others as outside the fold of Islam.

It is crucial to remember the historical context of the Khawarij, who were known for their extreme positions and declaring Muslims as unbelievers based on differences of interpretation. This rigid and divisive mindset led to discord and conflicts within the Muslim community. It is not productive or conducive to a healthy dialogue when we start questioning the faith of others simply because they hold differing opinions or interpretations.

Islam is a diverse religion with a wide range of interpretations and scholarly understandings. It is not for us to unilaterally label others as "not real Muslims" based on our own limited perspectives. Instead, let us engage in respectful and open discussions, seeking to understand different viewpoints and promoting unity within the broader Muslim community.

I encourage you to reflect on the inclusive teachings of Islam and the importance of mercy, tolerance, and unity. It is through dialogue, compassion, and understanding that we can strengthen our collective understanding of the faith and contribute positively to the ummah.

If you prefer that I do not continue to engage in this discussion, I will respect your wishes. However, I encourage you to consider fostering an environment of understanding and mutual respect when discussing matters of faith.

To my other brother (hope you wont mind calling you brother) Shukri:
Regarding the observation of silent prayers for Dhuhr and Asr, it is important to note that different Muslim communities and schools of thought have varying interpretations and practices when it comes to the recitation of prayers. While some Muslims prefer to recite their prayers silently, others may recite them in a low or moderate tone. The verse you cited from the Quran, 17:110, emphasizes the importance of not reciting the prayers too loudly or too secretly, but using a moderate tone. It allows for flexibility within the boundaries set by the Quran, and the exact manner of recitation can differ based on individual or cultural preferences.

Regarding the categorization of dogs as unclean (najis), it is true that some Sunni scholars consider dogs to be impure based on certain hadith narrations. However, it is important to note that the categorization of dogs as impure is not explicitly mentioned in the Quran as you rightly pointed out. The Quran does not provide specific guidance on this matter, and therefore, some Muslims may hold differing views on the purity of dogs. It is always beneficial to refer to the Quran as the primary source of guidance and consider diverse interpretations within the Muslim community.

In Islam, the Quran is considered the ultimate source of guidance, and it holds the highest authority. However, the role of hadith is to provide additional context, explanations, and examples of how the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) implemented the teachings of the Quran in his own life. Hadith can serve as a valuable tool for understanding the application of Quranic principles in various aspects of life. It is important to approach hadith critically and ensure that they are in line with the overall principles and teachings of the Quran. While hadith can provide valuable insights, they should not supersede or contradict the Quran.



Best Regards,

jkhan

Quote from: Fusion on June 05, 2023, 02:18:29 AM


It appears that you hold strong views and tend to label those who do not agree with you as not being true believers. I believe it is important to remind ourselves of the dangers of adopting an exclusionary approach and resorting to declaring others as outside the fold of Islam.


Salam

Where did I say those who don't agree with me are not TRUE believers.. Why you speculate.  .did you read there is topic raised by my lovely brother  Shukri regarding true believers? Did I say anything like you claim here.. I am not afraid to say that I have heard in every debate those sunni Muslims calling those who follow Quran as apostates or Kafir etc etc.  Go see all those videos.. Go read the conversation I and Shukri had.. Then if you are honest tell me.

Anyway let me speak to other hadith followers..

Salam.

These people have taken Quran for a mockery... It is so shameless.. They have taken Quran like eye witnesses for Zina ... Do you get me... Let me explain.. Why coz Zina needs kind of  witnesses to justify then only punishment can be executed... Right! ... They think Quran is like the action of Zina so they need eye witnessing of people (hadith)  then only they accept what is written in it.. OMG what a logic these people apply... They need evidence from various human sources to verify God's book.. Human verifying God's verses through human invented books like being honest witnesses for Zina... O give me a break.. Where did the knowledge of these people go.  Is it in brain or what?
How come they don't reflect with wits... Or am I sadly talking to those whose hearts are sealed indeed  by Allah..

God says in Quran..  Why don't you eat on which God's name is mentioned while God has detailed to you what is forbidden to you...

Look the exact verse ..So Then who details comprehensively to us in the way He has detailed?  Yes non other but Allah...
Hasn't He detailed in Quran what NOT to eat.. Or did Abu Huraira detailed it since he heard everything what Mohamed spoke..

On top of that Mohsned says.. I don't see in what was revealed to me forbidden other than.. 1 2 3 etc.. So Mohamed also refering to Quran...
That's why God says Messenger follows what was send down to him so do believers... So God confirms they all followed same book...  Nothing else.. Nothing else was there to follow..

jkhan

All Muslim scholars accepted the rejection of a mutawatir hadith as kufr (denial). For it is absolutely certain that a mutawatir hadith comes from our Prophet, the scholars said that rejecting these hadiths is equal to rejecting the Prophet. In this regard, it has to be accepted that those who deny the Sunnah in its totality become kafir (denier). (Mutawatir Hadith: a crowded group that can in no way tell a lie narrating hadiths to another crowded group like themselves. There is no doubt in these hadiths being told by our Prophet. For example, the five daily prayers have been practiced all the time since our Prophet's era. In this respect, one who rejects the five daily prayers becomes a denier.)

Look all brothers and sisters who follow hadith.. We don't call anyone Kafir... For that matter I have not called anyone kafir in my life... But it is you people and your books call others kafir at will... Jus rectify that first before pointing fingers at others and institute things not even uttered...


shukri

Quote from: Fusion on June 05, 2023, 02:18:29 AM
To my other brother (hope you wont mind calling you brother) Shukri:
That's okay, I like it!

Quote from: Fusion on June 05, 2023, 02:18:29 AM
Regarding the observation of silent prayers for Dhuhr and Asr, it is important to note that different Muslim communities and schools of thought have varying interpretations and practices when it comes to the recitation of prayers. While some Muslims prefer to recite their prayers silently, others may recite them in a low or moderate tone. The verse you cited from the Quran, 17:110, emphasizes the importance of not reciting the prayers too loudly or too secretly, but using a moderate tone. It allows for flexibility within the boundaries set by the Quran, and the exact manner of recitation can differ based on individual or cultural preferences.
But what I saw was my friends in complete silence, no voice at all!

Quote from: Fusion on June 05, 2023, 02:18:29 AM
Regarding the categorization of dogs as unclean (najis), it is true that some Sunni scholars consider dogs to be impure based on certain hadith narrations. However, it is important to note that the categorization of dogs as impure is not explicitly mentioned in the Quran as you rightly pointed out. The Quran does not provide specific guidance on this matter, and therefore, some Muslims may hold differing views on the purity of dogs. It is always beneficial to refer to the Quran as the primary source of guidance and consider diverse interpretations within the Muslim community.

In Islam, the Quran is considered the ultimate source of guidance, and it holds the highest authority. However, the role of hadith is to provide additional context, explanations, and examples of how the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) implemented the teachings of the Quran in his own life. Hadith can serve as a valuable tool for understanding the application of Quranic principles in various aspects of life. It is important to approach hadith critically and ensure that they are in line with the overall principles and teachings of the Quran. While hadith can provide valuable insights, they should not supersede or contradict the Quran.
For you personally, dogs are not najis I guess
Am I right?

Then, how about the sunni scholars who said dogs are najis based on hadith narrations?
Are they gone beyond limit or still in the right path?

Thank you.
"My Lord, pardon me if I have forgotten or erred"

Wakas

Quote from: jkhan on June 05, 2023, 03:29:04 AM
For example, the five daily prayers have been practiced all the time since our Prophet's era. In this respect, one who rejects the five daily prayers becomes a denier.)[/b][/color]

Not quite the full story:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600954.msg256154#msg256154

According to tradition it was 5 daily AFTER the isra/miraj story, found in chapter 17. According to tradition chapter 17 was revealed approx 621, and 11 years after that prophet Muhammad died.
So one could argue for most of the prophet's time it was done as pre-isra/miraj, i.e. 2 daily.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

jkhan

Quote from: Wakas on June 05, 2023, 08:04:15 AM
Not quite the full story:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600954.msg256154#msg256154

According to tradition it was 5 daily AFTER the isra/miraj story, found in chapter 17. According to tradition chapter 17 was revealed approx 621, and 11 years after that prophet Muhammad died.
So one could argue for most of the prophet's time it was done as pre-isra/miraj, i.e. 2 daily.

Lot to learn brother,  that's we we keep occupying in remembrance of God... But I don't at get ehere these sunnis are heading...

jkhan

Brothers of Sunni

Salam..

Since I consider reminding part of duty in life oh have reminded using my knowledge .. You all have knowledge so reflect... Up to you... Coz it is the matter of you life of hell fire vs Janna... So choose whatever...
In case if you not happy with whatever I explained thrn at least listen below video which I an just watching and and quite interesting and thought provoking... Watch it leaving all your preconceived notions for better light...

https://youtu.be/peiYpqtgH5g

amin

If acting as sheeps without any reasoning or basic understanding is what Hadiths are all about, then i am not for it. This is not what Quran advocates or what the Prophet as a person we see in history wanted from his followers.

Yes  discipline is required, following cultural values brings good to the society, but many times excesses  and unwanted things are being forced for personal gains, those who preach spread these for their own personal growth, egos and statuses and no benefit these gives to the followers, except misleading.

a simple example is some claiming, 'the more one does ritual prayer or recite some verses, the more one gets the benefit'??? it can never be that simple. Prayer has a purpose and thats totally destroyed by such claims.

We follow certain things  in society, only we have seen it had benefited in many ways in the past and those are examples/hadiths to follow. It could be simple things of convenience, but if these are forced onto everyone in the name of blind belief, these are like idolizing, there should be no magic in religion.

Fusion

Quote from: amin on June 05, 2023, 11:48:33 PM
If acting as sheeps without any reasoning or basic understanding is what Hadiths are all about, then i am not for it. This is not what Quran advocates or what the Prophet as a person we see in history wanted from his followers.

Yes  discipline is required, following cultural values brings good to the society, but many times excesses  and unwanted things are being forced for personal gains, those who preach spread these for their own personal growth, egos and statuses and no benefit these gives to the followers, except misleading.

a simple example is some claiming, 'the more one does ritual prayer or recite some verses, the more one gets the benefit'??? it can never be that simple. Prayer has a purpose and thats totally destroyed by such claims.

We follow certain things  in society, only we have seen it had benefited in many ways in the past and those are examples/hadiths to follow. It could be simple things of convenience, but if these are forced onto everyone in the name of blind belief, these are like idolizing, there should be no magic in religion.

I deeply resonate with your thoughts, brother Amin. Your concerns about blind adherence to Hadiths without reasoning or understanding are valid and deserving of attention. It is undeniable that blindly following without critical thinking can lead to negative consequences and distort the true teachings of Islam. Thus, it is our duty to approach religious texts, including the Hadiths, with humility, deep contemplation, and a profound understanding of the Quran as our ultimate source of guidance.

While discipline and adherence to cultural values have the potential to bring benefits to society, we must always differentiate between practices that genuinely contribute to the betterment of individuals and those that become excessive or imposed rituals. We should be vigilant and wary of those who exploit religion for personal gain, ego, and status, as their intentions may not align with the sincere guidance of others.

The example you shared about claims that quantity equates to greater benefits in ritual prayer or recitation of verses requires us to reflect on the true essence of prayer. It is crucial to recognize that prayer serves a higher purpose beyond mechanical acts. It serves as a means to connect with Allah, seek His guidance, and nurture a deep spiritual relationship. Prayer is not a mere transactional formula; rather, it necessitates understanding the purpose and intention behind our actions.

In society, we can find certain practices and historical examples that have proven to be beneficial. However, we must exercise caution and avoid imposing these practices on others as blind beliefs. Religion should never be reduced to idolizing or mindless rituals devoid of understanding. Instead, it should be a vessel for genuine faith, personal growth, and the pursuit of righteousness.

In the pursuit of a balanced and enlightened approach to our faith, it is incumbent upon each individual to seek knowledge, reflect upon the teachings of the Quran, and engage in critical thinking when interpreting religious texts. Islam encourages us to embrace reasoning, understanding, and compassionate wisdom. By doing so, we can navigate the intricacies of religious teachings and ensure that our actions are grounded in true faith, humble wisdom, and a heartfelt commitment to mercy, justice, and compassion – qualities embodied by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). May we all strive to walk this path with humility and passion, seeking Allah's guidance every step of the way.

Best Regards,