Can we ever understand the logic of God?

[Fusion]

Dear All,

I would like to post the following thoughts that despite asking some of my close folks, could not get a satisfactory answer. Maybe there is none atleast with our limited mind and space.

1. When a teacher has students in his class and he asked them sit in the exam, from his side he most likely have provided to all of them similar environment to his best capability. Likewise a child born with privileges vs child born with lot of inherited problems most likely (exceptions are not the criteria here) become in later life what the environment taught them. A thief, a beggar, a call girl, a dumb person with less intelligence, or a child whose dad passed away and he is now in orphanage and if he had become a bad person later in his life, he would most likely say if his father was not passed away , he would also had the privileges of proper education and etc. This does not mean crimes do not exists in rich people. but hope you get the point. So these two sets of people are not given equal environment, hence their traits depict accordingly. Now some folks call it a test... come on the other day I was watching a reality show where a girl (14 year) was interviwed in slum area having drugs and selling herself, told that she was one of the middle class folks with proper family but her dad passed away and then her dad's brother cheated and left her and her mom on the street. The point is despite there is acountability in here after etc, the fact remains, that girl in 14 years is in that stage because of the circumstances and we cant judge her future actions. Hence same level field is not given to her. Now yes you may say that god will be linient to her etc in here after but thats later. In this life she has become what her circumstances made her. Maybe 20% of such girls really get out of such mess but in general not. So where is the logic of God in all this? Now there is a verse
93:6 Did He not find you as an orphan then sheltered you? which brings me to 2nd point.

2. We find many verses in Quran like the above one where on the surface it looks like God favors certain people and even certain nations. Like Marry (mother of jesus over all world women), Family of Omron. Abraham/Jacob/Joseph all rest of kins.Because God does what he wants and he knows the reasons only. My point is any one can be worthy of Gods blessing and if that person is an Adult, I may understand the argument but what those children has to do with such unfortunate that theur circumstances made them bad people in later life (past 18 years). Why God did not shelter all of them? but only what he choses. based on what? Children cant be judged for his mercy to choose which one?

3. There are nations who flourish on their own, then there sre those who struck oil and become consumers and seems like chosen ones? while there are poor nations as a whole who lacks basic things of life? whos to blame? When it comes to masses we cant blame every person? For example across US Mexican border we see two different life style not now but stories of suffering and crossing the border is there since 100 years and these stories shape the life of those involved while other folks enjoy life

The points is you may say God knows and perhaps those people deserver good or bad.. I disagree. if the same level field was given to all humans then yes they can be punished for not being faithful ... but in the world we live in?

Perhaps we will know when we meet Lord what was his logic in making handicap people born, in making people or nations go down and further down while other nations go up and up and no logic on the surface.

Could any one explain without the cliche reply pls? meaning perhaps there is no religious explanation as such but this is how world is.
Best explained here (but this man is known as anti-religion by many)

https://study.com/learn/lesson/darwins-theory-of-natural-selection-concept-overview.html
Things we are calling God favor was actually 'Principles of Natural Selection".

Cheers

[jkhan]

Dear All,

I would like to post the following thoughts that despite asking some of my close folks, could not get a satisfactory answer. Maybe there is none atleast with our limited mind and space.

1. When a teacher has students in his class and he asked them sit in the exam, from his side he most likely have provided to all of them similar environment to his best capability. Likewise a child born with privileges vs child born with lot of inherited problems most likely (exceptions are not the criteria here) become in later life what the environment taught them. A thief, a beggar, a call girl, a dumb person with less intelligence, or a child whose dad passed away and he is now in orphanage and if he had become a bad person later in his life, he would most likely say if his father was not passed away , he would also had the privileges of proper education and etc. This does not mean crimes do not exists in rich people. but hope you get the point. So these two sets of people are not given equal environment, hence their traits depict accordingly. Now some folks call it a test... come on the other day I was watching a reality show where a girl (14 year) was interviwed in slum area having drugs and selling herself, told that she was one of the middle class folks with proper family but her dad passed away and then her dad's brother cheated and left her and her mom on the street. The point is despite there is acountability in here after etc, the fact remains, that girl in 14 years is in that stage because of the circumstances and we cant judge her future actions. Hence same level field is not given to her. Now yes you may say that god will be linient to her etc in here after but thats later. In this life she has become what her circumstances made her. Maybe 20% of such girls really get out of such mess but in general not. So where is the logic of God in all this? Now there is a verse
93:6 Did He not find you as an orphan then sheltered you? which brings me to 2nd point.

2. We find many verses in Quran like the above one where on the surface it looks like God favors certain people and even certain nations. Like Marry (mother of jesus over all world women), Family of Omron. Abraham/Jacob/Joseph all rest of kins.Because God does what he wants and he knows the reasons only. My point is any one can be worthy of Gods blessing and if that person is an Adult, I may understand the argument but what those children has to do with such unfortunate that theur circumstances made them bad people in later life (past 18 years). Why God did not shelter all of them? but only what he choses. based on what? Children cant be judged for his mercy to choose which one?

3. There are nations who flourish on their own, then there sre those who struck oil and become consumers and seems like chosen ones? while there are poor nations as a whole who lacks basic things of life? whos to blame? When it comes to masses we cant blame every person? For example across US Mexican border we see two different life style not now but stories of suffering and crossing the border is there since 100 years and these stories shape the life of those involved while other folks enjoy life

The points is you may say God knows and perhaps those people deserver good or bad.. I disagree. if the same level field was given to all humans then yes they can be punished for not being faithful ... but in the world we live in?

Perhaps we will know when we meet Lord what was his logic in making handicap people born, in making people or nations go down and further down while other nations go up and up and no logic on the surface.

Could any one explain without the cliche reply pls? meaning perhaps there is no religious explanation as such but this is how world is.
Best explained here (but this man is known as anti-religion by many)

https://study.com/learn/lesson/darwins-theory-of-natural-selection-concept-overview.html
Things we are calling God favor was actually 'Principles of Natural Selection".

Cheers

Hello...
Peace.
I am really glad that God has given you to reflect on this manner.. Do you know most won't even think in this manner.. These are the types of thoughts which makes a person near Lord  .. But if we fail,  these thoughts can lead to hell too...

Anyways...  Simple advice.. Taking it and leaving it is your choice lovely brother..
Keep away God in all these scenarios and think all what you thought... Who is responsible? Just for the sake of argument think there is no God and reflect on your concerns.. That's what all I have to say.. Rest is within your knowledge...  Thank you...

Regarding children and what they go through I recently made a video
https://youtu.be/xI8cd85irDA
I hope you get knowledge from it... We can't question what God does... So simple coz He is the King..

[Fusion]

Thanks Jkhan for your reply. And yes it is like as you said take it or leave it. The thing is that the question is not exactly aimed at myself but for me to explain to some one who has these thoughts or other folks of like minded. I can't tell them take it leave it? they want to understand and ask these legit questions.

I wish if some one knows Urdu, I have recently watched a video where these questions were discussed and hence raised several questions in my mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks5MUifKp3U


Cheers

[amin]

Fusion, nice thoughts and questions,

Life is not all about one thing,  we are not blessed the same ways,we all have positives and negatives and are made to move in some direction which we are automatically pulled upon, relying upon one others.
Yes innocent children suffer in many ways, killed in fightings, but the reason may be a corrupt system behind, and idolizing forces that prevents the grown ups not to think and act in the beginning and end, but we are not here to judge, leave those judgements to Him and do our duty?, Peace.

[jkhan]

Thanks Jkhan for your reply. And yes it is like as you said take it or leave it. The thing is that the question is not exactly aimed at myself but for me to explain to some one who has these thoughts or other folks of like minded. I can't tell them take it leave it? they want to understand and ask these legit questions.

I wish if some one knows Urdu, I have recently watched a video where these questions were discussed and hence raised several questions in my mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks5MUifKp3U


Cheers

Hello...
Salam again..
You are rushing bro.. Do you remember when you said one day to me in desperate way why I don't get my Turkye visa while all others getting... You were in so much hurry and patient less.. But somehow you got it.. Right... Similarly don't rush with questions unless it can take you with Satan...
You say have to explain to others at the beginning but in the end you said you lot of questions raising in you...  Whatever... Before explaining to others better self get clarified...  Isn't it...
Mercy and blessings and unfortunate life is from God...  Even misguidance is from God.. Don't ask WHY?  Coz He is God He knows best to handle things...
For example God did save Nova and par cof his family and believers with him.   Agree?
Let's consider those believers who were part of those who fortunate to be boarded with Nuh... Do you think those believers who had small kids would leave them behind?  No... They would have definitely taken their kids with them.. Coz there is no reason why those believers should leave innocent kids and they only board on the ship?  Agree?
But kids ate kids.. Before boarding these kids may be playing with kids of kafir (disbelievers)?  It's so natural.  But disbelievers were not allowed to be boarded...  So do you think those disbelievers would allow their kids to go with Nuh?  No. .
So.. Ask to your self... Why believers kids were saved while disbelievers kids were devastated. .? Can you answer... When God does something we can't ask WHY? when people do we can ask why? We have right to use the word WHY?
this WHY is meaningless infront of God while He is the Most Knowledgeable...  Agree? Who are we to ask WHY from our Creator?
So same innocent children from the same town were given two judgement...  One group saved and another group were destroyed. Do you want to ask God why?  What justice is that?
Suppose if anyone's says coz parents kept the children so parents responsible for kids destruction... But you can ask Why... Why God doesn't have any other way to save those children?  Why we question God...? All your questions are addressed to God and you expect explanation from people in the forum..
Can we ever understand the logic of God?  Lol... What you think brother....  Are exceptional to ask such a question...  Logic of God is unknown to us.. Ghaib.. Unknown.. He does what He does.  Even we like it or not... It doesn't matter.. He is not our slave to do only the matters that we like we love...  Don't dream being a mean human being to that extent.. ..
Again I reiterate...  Don't ask God why?  For example can we ask God why you created me while I didn't ask you to create me.  Had you not create me I wouldny have gone to hell?  Can we ask God?  Even one asked?  Doesn't God have answer to these mean questions..
God helps and God doesn't help.. God make one mean and make another high.. No point of arguing with God's decision...
Take it or leave it.. Up to you. .calm down and reflect. ..
Thank you... Peace. 

[good logic]

Peace all.

Has GOD given us information about who He is, what He does and why?
Let us ponder this very important starting point:

"Afi Allah  Chakk". Is there any doubt in/about GOD? Yet many have many doubts.
He says He is every where and at all times. He does not go absent even a fraction of a second otherwise everything that exist collapses.
He says He has the perfect knowledge of everything. Can we even imagine how is this possible?
Also he says"Laissa Kamithlihi Chaai". i.e Unique unlike any of His creations.
He says "They will ask you about "the RUH", Say the RUH is  by GOD s command and we only received a minute portion of His knowledge.
etc..
So let us break these things down in steps:
1-We should have some certainty about GOD, no doubt about that.
2- The things that are created with us and are everywhere are all made with fundamental laws and all made with atoms with protons and electrons and...etc same basic chemicals and building blocks. So these laws and building blocks are "Sunnata Allah" they are unchangeable in all His creations. Everything is made with solid and perfect science that includes equations , laws ,order...etc.i.e any of these laws cannot be broken

3- Humans have a different make up like faculties-see,here,think/reason./software unlike animals, plants...others ,coupled with free will to rule the earth with.

The mess that we see is the human s choices and decisions. Beyond that nobody can change GOD s laws that are set. Breaking any law that has been set by GOD while we are ruling on earth will have consequences.. GOD allows us to choose both ways. If we choose the wrong ways ,what you describe in you post brother Fusion is the outcome.
We take our family, community nation either on a straight path or the opposite and all will pay the penalty if the wrong path is taken.
GOD has detailed for us in His catalogue/book the good from the  bad/right from wrong. As individuals, family and community .

Those who go straight will be content and those who are the opposite will not be. Those caught in the middle are known to  GOD and will not be accountable or get a better time in this life later if they are given the opportunity if straight. That knowledge is with GOD.
To be continued.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

[good logic]

Peace all.

The battle of good v evil is with every generation.
Pioneers,  some good leaders,  some good scientists, prophets, have all contributed to "better humans". Inspired by GOD  or instinct/good character or both.

We are now living in the world in 2022. Is GOD still addressing us with the same expectations of past centuries/generations?
Does GOD not know the changes that take place?

In that case why are we all living in different worlds and circumstances? Is that what GOD expects of us? Are the ways and religions of people not contributing to that? i.e Is it GOD s fault  some of us follow our forefathers "wrong ways"? Why are we not listening to our own logic /instinct and reason? For example:
We know war is wrong why do we go ahead with it?
We know a  bad character must be avoided ,why are there many of us careless?
Where is the Science and our search taking us?

I believe GOD  is talking to every generation in His book. What is the book saying to me now, knowing that I am in a technology and advanced age?
Surely GOD knows that I do not take fairy tales and stories that are hard to grasp seriously?
Does GOD not know that  we analyse by the means of the latest Science and technology and we have the means to investigate most things?

This is where we need to check by today s tools/search/pondering... what Qoran is really saying to us, to understand the general message that applies to us this generation to correct us and return us to the straight path  and not stay in the ways that have put most humans in hell and darkness  up to now,because we must be still breaking many laws that GOD has set up for us to follow.

GOD willing, in future posts, I will give few examples of what I now understand from Qoran about the verses that our forefathers have wrongly interpreted for us  by following their forefathers and "copying and pasting " their ways that did not benefit them but kept them in grave error.

To be continued.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

[hawk99]

Peace Fusion pretty long post so I'll try to answer part one with interjections if you don't mind, please bear with me, Allah has given us the tools for a peaceful existence.  Therefore, the question of " Can we ever understand the logic of God?"  should instead be " Why can't people understand that God has given us all that we need?"

Dear All,

I would like to post the following thoughts that despite asking some of my close folks, could not get a satisfactory answer. Maybe there is none at least with our limited mind and space.

1. When a teacher has students in his class and he asked them sit in the exam, from his side he most likely have provided to all of them similar environment to his best capability. Likewise, a child born with privileges vs child born with lot of inherited problems most likely (exceptions are not the criteria here) become in later life what the environment taught them. (The question becomes why one child has privilege and the other does not) A thief, a beggar, a call girl, a dumb person with less intelligence, or a child whose dad passed away and he is now in orphanage and if he had become a bad person later in his life, (what does Allah say about the orphan "help them") he would most likely say if his father was not passed away , he would also had the privileges (the question is why no one recued the child and gave him a better life) a proper education and etc. This does not mean crimes do not exists in rich people. but hope you get the point. So these two sets of people are not given equal environment, (and who are responsible for them not having equal environment) hence their traits depict accordingly. Now some folks call it a test. ( nope (not a test but a failure to enact the laws of our creator)  come on the other day I was watching a reality show where a girl (14 year) was interviewed in slum area having drugs and selling herself, told that she was one of the middle class folks with proper family but her dad passed away and then her dad's brother cheated and left her and her mom on the street.( dereliction of duty to his brothers bloodline) The point is despite there is accountability in hereafter etc, the fact remains, that girl in 14 years is in that stage because of the circumstances and we cant judge her future actions. (but we can judge the actions of the family and community) Hence same level field is not given to her. Now yes you may say that god will be linient to her etc in here after but thats later. In this life she has become what her circumstances made her. (you mean what her family, neighbors, and community have made her) Maybe 20% of such girls really get out of such mess but in general not. So where is the logic of God in all this?

We are simply responsible for each other, that is why we are a community That's why it is said it takes a village to raise a child

God bless you                                                                                 

[Fusion]

Thanks to every one for making an effort to make me understand through my queries and doubts and I really appreciate every one of you for their posts.

What makes me at peace to a certain level is the post by Hawk99.
Dear Hawk, allow me to further self understand and carry forward your way of thinking and let me know if this is correct.

God does not create this world on the basis of Justice and it would be naive to think about that. The true real life is the hereafter with all the logic an justice. This world is a perfect example of injustice and no logic that we can follow... only this way we can ever understand the happiness, sorrow, pain, suffering, relief. wars . peace. you name it. Else if every thing was perfect we would not have any issues.
Now having said that as you mentioned, it seems a world of Test (with free will). The test for those who sees in justice and do not do anything , an individual or a nation.
I think it is two things. test of patience vs test of Shukr(thankfullness). I believe those poor people who gets the worst are maybe lucky as they utter Gods name in their suffering and pain while those who are blessed (money, beauty you name it) may most likely never remember God in general.
God might be saying this world is like a play ground. 60 years? 70+ at the end all die and then the real world starts where perhaps the unfortunate ones more likely will be the blessed ones.
So on the surface the patience ones seems on the more hit but in reality the bless ones are the real losers in generic sense because the test of Shukar is the most difficult one in the sense that with all the glory and fame humans tend to forget the creator vs the oppressed ones.
Hence God created this unjust system for the ones on either side to realize the others and perhaps be guided?
The child who was born in suffering and will die one day could be a test for all other around him.her (as you also said).
So I think I should take it AS IS and if one is on the receiving end then he or she should adopt more sabr and patience because as Quran says.
57:20
Know that this worldly life is no more than play, amusement, luxury, mutual boasting, and competition in wealth and children. This is like rain that causes plants to grow, to the delight of the planters. But later the plants dry up and you see them wither, then they are reduced to chaff. And in the Hereafter there will be either severe punishment or forgiveness and pleasure of Allah, whereas the life of this world is no more than the delusion of enjoyment.

Thanks again to all.
Salam

[good logic]

Peace Fusion.
Here is a beautiful summary about GOD and humans relevant to your thread and strikingly true about who the culprits are:

God is the One who created the heavens and the earth, and He sends down from the sky water to produce all kinds of fruit for your sustenance. He has committed the ships to serve you on the sea in accordance with His command. He has committed the rivers as well to serve you.
ا
He has committed the sun and the moon in your service, continuously. He has committed the night and the day to serve

And He gives you all kinds of things that you implore Him for. If you count God's blessings, you can never encompass them. Indeed, the human being is transgressing, unappreciative.


Do not ever think that God is unaware of what the transgressors are doing. He only respites them until a day where the eyes stare in horror.

As they rush (t of the graves), their faces will be looking upward, their eyes will not even blink, and their minds will be horrified.

You dwelled in the homes of those before you, who wronged their souls, and you have seen clearly what we did to them. We have set many precedents for you.

They schemed their schemes, and God is fully aware of their schemes. Indeed, their schemes were sufficient to erase mountains.

Do not think that God will ever break His promise to His messengers. God is Almighty, Avenger.

The day will come when this earth will be substituted with a new earth, and also the heavens, and everyone will be brought before God, the One, the Supreme.

Then true justice will happen.
GOD bless you.
Peace.