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Destiny and Free will

Started by Emre_1974tr, July 11, 2022, 06:11:29 PM

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Emre_1974tr

Quote from: Fusion on July 16, 2022, 10:33:47 AM
Can you please put a definition to "what is free will" ? am not asking literal meaning but an explanation from Islamic point of view?

Also is our free will influenced by GOD? meaning that GOD gives us "Fursa/Opportunities" to either go for or Good or Evil?  because In QURAN it says God does not guide the wrongdoers(Az Zalimeen) ?  However the question is if God Does not guide the wrongdoers then where is the concept of repent and guidance for wrongdoers to come back to right path???

Also is our free will influenced by Satan? and can we consider example of adam and eve eating from the tree as their own free will [but also influenced by Satan as God also confirms that in some verses that satan seduced them] in which case what category of FREE WILL Adama and Yve chose when that is influenced by Satan?

Also is there a free will which is neither influenced by God or Satan?

thanks

Dude, I showed this in detail in my main article. Do you want me to retell my article from the beginning :)

Those who repent and go to heaven are those who are already good. They were created for heaven from the very beginning. On the other hand, those who will not be guided to the right path are cruel and evil people in total. They were created for hell from the very beginning.

Good people can have periods when they are bad. But overall they are good people and they will be guided towards goodness before they leave this world.

On the other hand, some bad people may have some good periods or some good sides, but if they were to be tested forever, they would be bad people in total anyway. God knows this and He makes sure that they go astray in this brief 2 day test life. But he does it without interfering with free will. Because he knows how you will react to which events and which options you will choose. And he puts such events in front of you so that you go astray.

Free will is free will. There is no Islamic meaning, it is whatever you understand it to be.

Look, you know I'm writing this now, don't you? If you could go back in time and watch me on camera without interfering with me, you would have known that I was going to write this. There is no interference with my free will.

We know that Allah will create us again in the future. God has the freedom not to do that, but He will do it anyway and we know that. Our knowing does not affect his free will, but he will keep his promise.

Peace
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Fusion

Bro, I have gone through your detailed article twice and still had some clarifications, hence my asking.


Quote from: Emre_1974tr on July 16, 2022, 11:07:09 AM

Those who repent and go to heaven are those who are already good. They were created for heaven from the very beginning. On the other hand, those who will not be guided to the right path are cruel and evil people in total. They were created for hell from the very beginning.



Irrespective of the free will- what ever it is and how may one perceive it, I WONDER why God created lots more destined for hell and another somewhat less for heaven? I know you cant answer that but I wonder what would be the motive behind such a scheme (if assuming your above statement is what it is )




Best Regards,

Emre_1974tr

Quote from: Fusion on July 16, 2022, 11:18:56 AM
Bro, I have gone through your detailed article twice and still had some clarifications, hence my asking.



Irrespective of the free will- what ever it is and how may one perceive it, I WONDER why God created lots more destined for hell and another somewhat less for heaven? I know you cant answer that but I wonder what would be the motive behind such a scheme (if assuming your above statement is what it is )

I answered this in my article. He is not creating anyone for more hell. He creates you equal to evil and good and you choose with your free will.

Since God knows what you will choose, He created you for where you will go. If you are going to choose goodness, He will have created you for heaven. If you are going to choose evil, He has created you for hell.

He does this because he wants you to get what you deserve. He does justice and goodness, rewarding the good and punishing the bad.
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Emre_1974tr

I  said:



Our Creator is timeless and spaceless as an entity. He created this time and space out of nothing.

But as a manager-observer (from outside) He is in all points of space and all points of time...

past...................................present.............. ..............................future


We are only at the point of now and we are traveling forward.

But our Lord is not traveling forward from such a point like us.

Concepts like past, future, present belong to us.

There is no such journey for Him.

He is observing and managing every time point.

He doesn't need to go there, He doesn't need to travel.

Because just as it was in the past, it is also in the future at the same time, and again, just as it is at our point in the present....

When people think of "timelessness", they think of a way of life where only the wristwatch stops working, but the other elements continue as they are. No, timelessness, as I explained above, is a completely different situation that we cannot even imagine. It means that there are no separate concepts of past, future, present moment.

Just as we know that since our Lord is spaceless, He is outside the universe, He does not travel in our universe, but He is at every point of space and work-occurrence as an external ruler; in the same way, our Lord, who is timeless, is outside of time as an entity, but He exists at every point of time as a ruler-observer.

If we were to take a ride in a time machine, when we go to the future and the past, we would realize that Allah is managing that time period as well. And also the time inside the time machine.

But let us emphasize again;

God as "Being" is not in anything and is separate from all His creation.

He is outside time and space.

We are the ones inside time and space. They have already been created for us...

And since our Lord is separate from all His creation, it is a great sin to associate partners with Him, since nothing He has created is a part or reflection of Him.

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com/2011/07/zaman-zamanszlk-ve-rabbin-kat.html
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Fusion

Quote from: Emre_1974tr on July 16, 2022, 11:25:21 AM
I answered this in my article. He is not creating anyone for more hell. He creates you equal to evil and good and you choose with your free will.

Since God knows what you will choose, He created you for where you will go. If you are going to choose goodness, He will have created you for heaven. If you are going to choose evil, He has created you for hell.

He does this because he wants you to get what you deserve. He does justice and goodness, rewarding the good and punishing the bad.

Thank you for your patience and answering my doubts.
Another verse which I wanted to understand in the context of your article.

Am only pasting arabic here because the strong statement delivered in arabic have no match for the english translation that exists, hope you get my point, because it appears in english version that God is making a promise to himself that he will surely fill up hell. However in arabic version the concept of his graciousness upon humans supersede.


11:119
إِلَّا مَن رَّحِمَ رَبُّكَ ۚ وَلِذَٰلِكَ خَلَقَهُمْ ۗ وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَةُ رَبِّكَ لَأَمْلَأَنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ ٱلْجِنَّةِ وَٱلنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ ١١٩
Best Regards,

Emre_1974tr

Quote from: Fusion on July 16, 2022, 11:51:32 AM
Thank you for your patience and answering my doubts.
Another verse which I wanted to understand in the context of your article.

Am only pasting arabic here because the strong statement delivered in arabic have no match for the english translation that exists, hope you get my point, because it appears in english version that God is making a promise to himself that he will surely fill up hell. However in arabic version the concept of his graciousness upon humans supersede.


11:119
إِلَّا مَن رَّحِمَ رَبُّكَ ۚ وَلِذَٰلِكَ خَلَقَهُمْ ۗ وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَةُ رَبِّكَ لَأَمْلَأَنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ ٱلْجِنَّةِ وَٱلنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ ١١٩

11:119 Except whom your Lord has mercy upon; and for that He has created them. And the word of your Lord came true: "I will fill Hell with the Jinn and the people together!"

The first part of the verse talks about the good people created for paradise. Then it talks about the bad ones who are destined for hell. The promise is renewed that the wicked will also get the hell they deserve.

It says that everyone will be brought to the place they deserve. In many verses Allah says that if He wishes He can intervene in the free will of the wicked and make them one of the good, but He will not do that, He will make sure that they go to the hell they deserve with their free will.

Peace
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truth

Peace,

Consider...

20:41 I have chosen you for Myself.
20:42 Go, you and your brother, with My signs, and make sure that you remember Me.
20:43 Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has exceeded all bounds.
20:44 Speak to him gently so that he may take heed, or show respect. *

The God knows the outcome but the dialogue outlined to Moses leaves open the possibility of reform on even the part of pharaoh.


Another example is that of Jonah whose fate is dependent on his own choice, and not placed upon him by The God even though He has full knowledge of All things and the choice that Jonah would make.

Fore-knowledge of everything by The God does not impede the agency of a person's choice to take the direction that they do.

*[The 4 verses have many numerical signs also but these are not directly relevant to the topic here (as well as require further work) and are not presented as a result. They will be presented The God willing in a future essay.]


"the Knower of the Unseen, and He reveals unto none His secret,
Save unto a messenger whom He has chosen, and He made an affirmer before him and another follow him.

Emre_1974tr

Quote from: truth on July 16, 2022, 12:44:23 PM
Peace,

Consider...

20:41 I have chosen you for Myself.
20:42 Go, you and your brother, with My signs, and make sure that you remember Me.
20:43 Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has exceeded all bounds.
20:44 Speak to him gently so that he may take heed, or show respect. *

The God knows the outcome but the dialogue outlined to Moses leaves open the possibility of reform on even the part of pharaoh.


Another example is that of Jonah whose fate is dependent on his own choice, and not placed upon him by The God even though He has full knowledge of All things and the choice that Jonah would make.

Fore-knowledge of everything by The God does not impede the agency of a person's choice to take the direction that they do.

*[The 4 verses have many numerical signs also but these are not relevant to the topic here and are not presented as a result. They will be presented The God willing in a future essay.]

I explained these in my article.

Pharaoh was going to hell. God knew this before He created him. But he was given the chance/opportunity to face himself until the last moment. He was shown very specific evidence.

And through this Pharaoh learned that he was an incorrigible tyrant. He has no  appeal/right of objection in the hereafter.

Allah knew this from the beginning, but Pharaoh and the other witnesses also learned it.

Pharaoh could have chosen good, but he would never choose good, and Allah knew that.

Being able to do something is one thing, doing something is another. And that is the result of free will.

Everybody can do the opposite of what they do. Everyone has free will, but they will not do it. They have chosen one of the options.

Now I know that you wrote the above article. You might not have written it, but you did and now I know. If I could go back in time, I would have known that you would write this article and you would have written it with your free will.
,
Please read my article in its entirety and carefully. I explain the facts very clearly.

Peace
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Aladin Azra

Quote from: Fusion on July 16, 2022, 10:05:26 AM
Very interesting viewpoint. I see two different versions of what God knows (yours and emre). So as per your statements, when God talks about in several verses that he knows Ghaib and he has knowledge of all things, the context should NOT be things which does NOT exist..or happened yet... am I right?
You use the sentence quote  "HE DOESN'THAVE KNOWLEDGE". this means that GOD does not have the capacity to know omniscience in which case Yes Freewill to humans makes sense. Otherwise omniscience and freewill are incompatible. However this may suggest that God's knowledge is imperfect and he can not know beforehand.... 

So I am still not sure what to conclude....

thanks

Allah is Haqq and His every name is in Haqq (reality, existence). Allah is telling that He'll give some people Jennet and some Jehennem, right? Now, are they exist or will be created?

Or, let's look at translation of 2:30 "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." (Sahih int.) This should mean that khaleefa (or in this translation "a successive authority") didn't exist, but Allah is going to make one. But this is not what Allah told in 2:30. He told "I am a maker of khaleefa IN (not upon) 'erD." He didn't use verb "I will make", but an active participle "a maker", which is telling that He's already began making khaleefa. If He haven't started then word khaleefa would be bogus. Same as I say "I will make ljsaflasljfajljajadlkjf", this is bogus. But if I start making something and somebody asks me "What is this?" I can tell "This is ljsaflasljfajljajadlkjf", because it exists somehow. Also note that Allah didn't use Khaaliq, but Jaa'il, because Khaaliq is describing a creator of something perfectly made according to some plan, Jaa'il is a creator in any phase of creating a thing from other thing. So, not just Allah has chosen a perfect word form in participle, but He used a perfectly chosen participle in the meaning.

Allah is not talking about unicorns, He is Haqq and He knows Haqq. Talking about not-existing is bogus and fantasy (in most cases sheyTaanic product). Some people ask "Can Allah make a stone bigger then him" or some similar questions, but this has a logical fallacy in that that nothing bigger then Allah exists and cannot exist. Also, if somebody asks "Does Allah know the future?" then he should define "future". We know the future only when it becomes present and we witness it. Yes, Allah know everything, but everything doesn't include unreal things, as He doesn't know what blood type is a unicorn, not due to lack of His knowledge but due to unicorns don't exist, they're unreal.

This is why what will come Allah knows only for things which are constants, as I made an example of the Sun and the Moon, but He cannot know about variables, as we are, even nothing happens without Him letting it to happen. Note that Allah doesn't say that He knows that leaf will fall before it felt, but He says وَمَا تَسْقُطُ مِن وَرَقَةٍ إِلَّا يَعْلَمُهَا where the verbs are in imperfect, He's talking about actions which take place. And yes, His knowledge is instant, just as anything happens. You can check this 6:59 and see that Allah's talking about reality, not about possibility.

Speaking of which, He can "calculate" all possibilities as outcomes of something, because He's el-Hakeem, but what variables will choose it's on them, He doesn't know what we'll choose. Otherwise, there would be no reason for Him to test us how we'll behave.

For gayb, I think is best to check the only verb first, which is reflexive and used only in 49:12 and it's about disclosing, making public things about others. All words are about what was hidden or absent or didn't exist and then disclosed, came, came to existence, etc. You can check 2:33 to better understand this. There Allah's telling that He knows gayb, all of it, no matter if melaa'iket are showing something or they are trying to hide. How come? Because it exists, no matter if we try to hide it or we're showing it, it exists both ways for Allah, it already disclosed to Him, because He's One who let it be. This is gayb: all we're showing or trying to hide, no matter of thing's essence. But Allah is not talking about things which don't exist, because what doesn't exist we (or melaa'iket in this case) cannot show nor hide.

I always may be wrong, but if anybody knows any case where Allah is saying that He knows something which doesn't exist I'd be glad to learn something. Who's opposing this let him think about why is Allah testing us, what's the point of testing Him to KNOW (as He says).



Ordo ab LICENTIA.

Emre_1974tr

I am frankly appalled to see how people here persist in not understanding the obvious facts.

I see that the Quran is not being read sincerely, I see that the Quran is not being read with integrity, and I see that the intellect is not being exercised.

I see people who have completely turned away from Islam, let alone towards the true Islam of the Quran.

I see that even the verses that I have given in my article here are not thought about at all, I see that people never break their rote memorization. It is really a frightening picture.

I see the same behavior of people who try to understand the verses that talk about defensive warfare as offensive warfare. This is what happens when you don't read the book in its entirety, this is what happens when you close your eyes to the truth out of your arrogance.

I am not going to go over it again and again. Those who are sincere have actually read what I have written.

You have not yet understood what a test is. You don't understand the purpose of the life of this world, and moreover you don't understand the Quran/Islam at all (I exclude Fusion, he reads what I write sincerely, thank to him).

In the meantime, I will continue with my explanations on the subject.

Peace
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