HELP NEEDED! Crisis of Faith: The Truthfullness of The Qur'an...

[LiberalGamer]

Having a bit of a crisis of faith right now, the emotions have subsided a bit, so my writing might sound a bit too calm but I am still very much unsure of everything.
This will be a bit of a ramble, so bear with me, and there's a tl;dr at the end of the post with the main questions I have.

And let me be absolute clear here, I believe in God 100%, granted assuming The Qur'an is falsehood [would be so sad...], I wouldn't know much about God... but still I do believe in God, I do believe in a Creator, in The Creator, so keep that in mind, I'm not an atheist nor do I plan to be, ever.

In a nutshell, here's my conundrum:

Let's assume you are alive when The Prophet pbuh is alive too and he is preaching The Qur'an.
Now, within this context, you have two options:
A). Believe that The Prophet pbuh is sent from God
B). Believe that The Prophet pbuh is speaking from his own accord

Now, let's go back to the present day context, you can still
A). Believe that The Qur'an is from God
B). Believe that The Qur'an is from a Human in the 7th century

Now the problem that I have is that, if you assume A, it does make sense, but there are a lot of things which either 1). seem really unfortunate, or 2). don't make sense, for example:
-Eternal Punishment? God is the Doer of what He Wills and, I it is possible, but it just, it sounds so unfortunate, like no second chances, it's so sad.
-Killing / Waging War, honestly even if it was self defense it just seems too glorified to be coming from God, the disbelievers seem absolutely dehumanized, but even beyond that killing seems to be presented as an actual good thing rather then a deplorable but unfortunately necessary thing, "Striving in The Way Of God" and all that...
-Even The Day seems a bit arbitrary at times, for example there are different accounts given on what will occur on that day, but the most unfortunate thing from my view is the fact that there doesn't even seem to be anything certain, since the implication is everyone will account for their deeds they did in this life, but then it is mentioned multiple times that the disbelievers deeds will be nullified, so it's as if they didn't do anything good, ergo I don't understand.

For all I can provide verses if needed, and truth be told perhaps my memory is failing me on some specific things but I think the overall point still stands, unfortunately.

But here are the two unfortunate things I've come to realize as well:

1. If you say that these verses, for example, the killing verses are contextual or even metaphorical, that still begs the question, if you were alive during The Prophet pbuh's time, would they be seen as metaphorical?
I feel like if I was alive during The Prophet pbuh's time, and those verses were recited, it would be expected of me from both maybe The Prophet and the people, to go pick up a sword and slay people, like physically execute them, go into a village and pillage things, and all that, as it seems people have done when you read verses like the 8th one or the 33rd one or the 47th one, or the 59th one.

2. The more unfortunate realization... a lot of these things, if not all of these things, make 10x times more sense if you look at The Qur'an as from [God Forgive me if it really isn't] a human.

I'll even go into it right now, here are all of the things that I didn't and still don't understand, but when I look at this from the perspective of "This is written by a human", they seem to make more sense...
And before I do I'll admit, I am being super nihilistic here, more so then usual, more so then even I believe, but since I have for the most part believed in The Qur'an I do feel the need to take a look at this as a devil's advocate, to see if the arguments against it would stand, so please bear with me and understand I am being a bit more harsher in my arguments to hopefully get to the bottom of this.

Worldy Life / Hereafter
This is probably one of the SECOND most biggest things I never got and still don't, The Worldy Life and The Hereafter.
And by worldy life we're going to assume it means this present life, from birth till death, and that being that.

And I have... just a ton of questions here, just a ton.

But most of the questions are intertwined with the other things, so when I get to those points I'll bring up the Worldy Life again... but just keep the following in mind:
The Qur'an, based on my knowledge, seems to HEAVILY imply that the worldy life is absolutely useless, at first I thought it was a passive thing until I stumbled upon 11:15-16 wherein it states that desiring the worldy life can LITERALLY lead you to hell, like just that deed alone, wanting the worldy life, can lead you to hell.
Now to my understanding I do agree with the sentiment that the worldy life isn't all there is, and it certainly isn't the most important thing out there, but to denounce it to the point where just WANTING it, not doing anything evil to get it, just WANTING it, is ENOUGH to be TORMENTED for all of ETERNITY, is just mind boggling to me.

But another point that I just don't understand, is that God created this world, and it talks in The Qur'an about the beautiful sings of God throughout nature, but then it claims that desiring this world is hell-worthy... I don't understand, why would The Creator of the World denounce The World?!? I don't know, it's not a solid point but I just don't understand it.

But if you look at it from a human perspective... if you convince your followers that the present life is absolutely useless, they do become easier to manipulate...

Hell
I still don't understand why God would punish people eternally.
It is possible, and God is the Doer of what He Wills, and if He wants to do so there is literally nothing stopping Him, but I still don't get it.
When a disbeliever dies and is sentenced to Hell, what's the point of the punishment really, like what difference would it make if the disbeliever just ceased to exist versus the disbeliever being in eternal pain, I just don't understand, what does God get out of punishing disbelievers?
In other words, the punishments on this world are seen as signs for the other people to mend their ways, but once The Day Occurs, that's it, if you were good you were good if you were bad you were bad, you aren't going to be able to mend your ways, so what's the point of causing pain to the people in hell at that point other then just to cause pain.

Let me put it this way: when people punish other people in this world, they mainly do so to either avert the person that did the crime, or to avert other people from doing the crime. But in The Hereafter the person who did the crime is going to get punished endlessly, and the other people who didn't do the crime won't ever get a chance to do the crime.
It's still possible and if God truly plans to do so ultimately it is His Right to do so... I just don't get why, y'know, especially considering mercy and all that...

But if you look at it from a human perspective, it feeds into the fear thing, because if you don't want Hell you have to Obey God, and the way to Obey God is by obeying this human messenger

Fear
I do understand the purpose of Fear and specifically Fearing God, but I never understood why the painful torments are mentioned so frequently in The Qur'an.
If you believe it, if you believe in God, why are you being constantly reminded of what will happen if you stop believing? Why is the majority of The Qur'an threats rather then guidance on what to do once you start believing, ways to show kindness, patience, respect for others, etc? Why are the threats even a main part of The Qur'an, either you are a A). Believer, in which case you would want to do right by God even if there were no consequences for not doing so [I don't believe the primary motive for serving God should be fearing Hell], or B). Non-believer, in which case you'll dismiss the threats either way?


But if you see it from a human perspective, then it does make sense, you would need the threats to remind your followers that if they ever leer away, there would be consequences.

Killing / War
This is, without a doubt, one of the biggest if not the biggest issues I have with my understanding of The Qur'an.

The Numerous, NUMEROUS calls for Killing, and War, and Violence, to my understanding.
First before I even get to the main point, I need to just answer a few common rebuttals to this point before anything.

"It's Self Defense Only"
This doesn't really explain at all why it's glorified so much within the Qur'an, "Fighting / Killing in God's Way" and all that... it seems to be presented not as an absolute deplorable last resort, but rather as a virtue even, of sorts.
And I'm not talking just about the 9:29 or 9:5, it's just that the general overall feel seems to be that of a warring religion, as I said above, just read  the 8th surah, or the 33rd, or the 59th one, or the 47th one.
I mean 33:13 and 33:16 EVEN MENTIONS FLEEING, if you can FLEE, then it's not SELF DEFENSE now IS IT?
And if you say that it's "self defense" in the context of "lets fight these people before they fight us", or "lets fight these people to restore our land", then at that point you really can justify any sort of killing, at that point all Putin needs is to be a "Prophet" and he is doing the right thing.

And all of this without even going into the main crucial point, which is, as I said above, "THE WORLDY LIFE", as The Qur'an states before, if the worldy life really is that useless... THEN SELF DEFENSE DOESN'T FLY.
If the worldy life is useless, and killing is a sin, then it is 100000x times better to endure the persecution and get your reward on The Day, in The Hereafter, then to fight back and kill people and earn sins.

And I don't understand this either, if it's self defense due to persecution, there are numerous verses about patience and how one should be patient in times of persecution, and if the Hereafter is the true home, then I don't see why God would order people to kill other people rather then order them to patience, sure the people probably would prefer to kill the people who are slaying them, but God knows, and the people should know, that the true justice will be delivered on The Day.

"It's Metaphorical"
Possibly... and I hope so Insha Allah, but it just doesn't seem likely, considering all of the verses and surahs [see above] that imply that it isn't...
Plus you have to wonder if you were alive during The Prophet pbuh's time, would he see it as metaphorical? Or would he expect you to prep up and start ending the lives of people?

"God doesn't see killing certain people as a sin / a bad thing"
I get that no one probably says this, but it remains as a point nonetheless.
If this is the case, then I can't really believe that this is from God, I can't really believe that God, The Creator of the Universe, would want us to slay each other, despite the reason, especially if this world isn't even all that there is.
So yea, if this was the case I don't know if I could believe that The Qur'an is from God.
But if it was from God, and if God truly was 100% ordering us to kill other people, then I guess I would comply, and I would have to trust God that it's the right way...
But I would NOT do this if there was even a 1% CHANCE that I was wrong, I would have to be 1000000% SURE that GOD, the one TRUE LORD was ordering us to slay others, to even consider doing this.
And so far there is no 100% proof that The Qur'an is from God, at least not that I know, that's 100%, without a doubt.


Well, that's the main points I know, um, yeah.
Well I think I said what I wanted to say regarding this topic.
The killing and calls to kill are, from my perspective, the main issue I have with my understanding of the Qur'an.

"Killing innocents is evil, and Killing people should be avoided as much as possible" is one of my core moral beliefs, more or less, and I think it's evident, if someone killed your mother I think you would not be happy in the slightest [it ain't a good moral evaluator but just as an example].
I don't know if Killing anyone ever has ever brought anyone good, except in the extreme case scenarios where that person that you killed was like hitler or something.
And even then the main crime of hitler was killing other people.

And to believe that God, the LORD of the WORLDS, would not only not condone such a thing but would actively encourage it... it just doesn't compute.

I don't understand why God would order such a thing.
I don't understand how God would order such a thing.
I don't understand if even God would order such a thing.

So unless there's a massive misunderstanding, if The Qur'an is truly claiming this... I don't know if I can believe that The Qur'an is from God.

And I hate to say it, but if you look at it from a human's perspective... it once again makes sense.
Killing other people had numerous benefits in history, for one you'd have more power, more reign, there really isn't any negative to killing other people assuming you're in power, except for a moral reason, and if you use God to justify this, then the moral reason becomes no more as well.

Justice on The Day of Judgement
This once again I don't understand,  I already said it before but the most logical thing, and the thing that my understanding of The Qur'an seems to claim at times is that, more or less:
"People will be held accountable for what they did on The Day of Judgement, all that they did will be recorded, and nothing will be neglected, they will be held accountable for what they did, both good and bad"
Which honestly sounds fair and sounds reasonable and sounds logical.

But THEN other times it is said that there are people who's deeds will be rendered NULL, it will be as if they did NOTHING, which just doesn't make sense?

Like this is mentioned multiple times but to bring up a verse which I just don't understand again [if it is sent from God]:
49:2, 'O you who believe! Do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loudly to him, as you speak loudly to one another, lest your works be in vain without you realizing.', clearquran.com translation
What kind of justice is this? If you speak loudly to The Prophet (pbuh, if he is a real prophet), then your deeds are in vain? All that you did is for naught if you speak loudly towards the prophet what is this honestly please someone explain.

But once again if you look at it from a human's perspective, if you threaten people that, even if their deeds are good, that their deeds could be nullified if they don't listen to you, if they believe you they would obey you more easily.

"Just A Warner"
this is mentioned frequently, it is said frequently that The Messenger [pbuh, if he is a real messenger], is 'just a warner',  which okay does make sense I guess y'know.


But the thing is if you look at it from a human perspective, aka if The Messenger wasn't actually sent by God, it seems so malicious.
I mean basically what's happening is that The Messenger, if you look at it from the human perspective, is saying:

"I'm just a warner, you can either listen and obey my every command, or you'll be tormented forever, it's your choice, and since I'm just a warner the burden falls on you"

If you think about it, assuming that The Messenger isn't actually sent by God, there's no real difference on the human perspective between warning and threatening.
It's "Obey me or I'll torture you", vs "Obey me or God (whom there is no real proof I'm speaking for Him) will torture you".

What I'm trying to say is that if it's from a human, then it's incredibly malicious, as you're basically threatening those whom you speak to, but you're making them to be at fault, because you're 'just a warner'

Arguing with the Disbelievers
in The Clear Qur'an, clearquran.com, Surah 2, Verse 6 says:
"6. As for those who disbelieve—it is the same for them, whether you have warned them, or have not warned them—they do not believe."

Then what, if I may ask, is the point of:
-The threats of Hell
-The arguments against those who disbelieve [when they say why is there not with him a treasure, or why are there not angels, why does The Qur'an respond to those claims?]
-in fact, why are the disbelievers even predominantly mentioned?

Why isn't The Qur'an more of a "You're here, that means you Believe in God, here's what you need to do" kind of book, or a "O those who believe in God, here's what God wants you to do" kind of book, rather then a "Okay, here's what will happen if you don't believe" kind of book.

If you think about it, if there really are two groups of people: those who want to submit to God and those who don't, then why does the Qur'an even talk about the disbelievers as much as it does, why are there threats against those who disbelieve in almost every surah, if those who disbelieve not only don't even read The Qur'an, but secondly even if they did they won't respond because The Clear Qur'an  ITSELF even tells you that "those who disbelieve, even if they are warned, will not believe".

And I hate to say it but if you look at it from a human perspective, it once again makes a lot more sense.
You would want to tell your followers that those who aren't convinced will never be convinced, so that then once your followers encounter those who aren't convinced, they can just write them off as 'disbelievers', and therefore not engage with them.
And secondly the threats would make more sense too, keeping your followers on edge, I guess, I don't know.

The Prophet's PBUH Desires
The question that really brought me here in the first place.
"Is there anything in The Qur'an, which does not benefit The Prophet".
You would expect that if The Qur'an was from God, since God is the Creator of All, there would be plenty of things that would not benefit The Prophet.
Perhaps moral qualities that The Prophet had to adhere to, perhaps things that made life a bit more difficult for The Prophet, but it seems like you find the opposite?
I mean I don't know, I may very well be wrong and I hope I am, but to me it seems like everything in The Qur'an confirms The Prophet pbuh's wishes & wants.
It seems like everything in my understanding of The Qur'an, either
A). Directly benefits The Prophet (Obeying him, the rulings regarding his wives, etc.)
B). Indirectly benefits The Prophet (Heaven/Hell, Killing/War aka getting an army, etc.)
C). Doesn't benefit The Prophet pbuh but doesn't bring any discomfort either (Fasting, Praying, etc.)

And think about this, would you really see this from a Prophet?
I mean I am honestly asking this question, is there anything in The Qur'an that God Desired but that The Prophet didn't desire? It seems like God's Desires always line up with The Prophets, which makes me skeptical.

I mean the fact that there's an entire chapter, surah 33, that's dedicated towards ruling about The Prophet Wives, and then in that chapter he gets a special exception where he can have more then four wives... I mean read this:

3:14-15
"14. Adorned for the people is the love of desires, such as women, and children, and piles upon piles of gold and silver, and branded horses, and livestock, and fields. These are the conveniences of the worldly life, but with God lies the finest resort.
15. Say, "Shall I inform you of something better than that? For those who are righteous, with their Lord are Gardens beneath which rivers flow, where they will remain forever, and purified spouses, and acceptance from God." God is Observant of the servants.".

Why didn't this apply to The Prophet as well, I don't understand...

I mean why is it that, for all the talk of "THE WORLDY LIFE" being useless, it seems like never once were there any restrictions imposed upon The Prophet regarding the worldy life, rather the opposite, exceptions?

I mean I'm not saying that The Prophet had to live a terrible life, but I'm just saying when you have a Prophet pbuh who constantly advocates for how "the next world is the true home", but then that same Prophet pbuh seems to have lived a luxurious life, more so then his followers... it sound suspicious doesn't it?

I don't know dude, I guess what I'm trying to ask is:
"Are there any themes, or verses, from The Qur'an, that show that God (in The Qur'an)'s desires, and The Prophet's Desires, didn't align 100% all of the time"
because right now where I'm at, it seems like everything in my understanding of The Qur'an serves to help and benefit The Prophet in this world, when even The Qur'an's message is that the next world is the true world.

[I'm aware of a few minor things, such as the blind man in Surah 80, or the threat in surah 69, or a few verses here and there alluding to something but that's not really that concrete, anyone could easily fabriciate a threat against themselves or a lesson against themselves.
And the main reason that's not really concrete is because there aren't any consequences for that, nothing changed in the life of The Prophet because of those verses, I think.

Minor Things
-not allying yourself with your family if they are disbelievers,
idk if it was just a human this is really malicious

-fasting in the north pole,
there are places on the earth where the sun never sets, God designed the night and the day, how is this never brought up, especially when you're supposed to fast from sunrise to sunset, but since there are places where the sun never sets it's literally impossible, like literally, and yet to my knowledge, my understanding of The Qur'an never brings it up...

-patience,
if he was just a human, this could be used as a excuse for a lot of things.
Patience is a virtue, but if you look at it from this perspective, then whenever you have an unanswered question, the other people could just say 'be patient', and you would die 'being patient', not ever furthering anything.

-the historic things maybe? Like the syriac arabic gospel, or cave of treasures?,
or something like that, idk truth be told this never was a strong point because what we view as history changes overtime with new information, so yea nevermind.

The TL;DR
that's about it, as I said I was a lot harsher then I normally would've been, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from.
I still believe in God 100%... or at least I think / hope I do, and I know that if unfortunately my doubts come true, that I will still Insha Allah try to search for God elsewhere.


Tl;dr: there are a lot of things I don't understand with the Qur'an, yet I would understand them more from a 7th century human perspective... so my questions are as follows:

-Literally anyone can technically speak for God, I still believe in God, but where's the proof that The Qur'an is From God, other then it claiming to be so?
-It is said that there are people who believe and people who don't, even if they are warned... so why the warnings, threats, tactics to get people to believe, if there are people who believe and those who don't despite the warnings?
-The whole conflict with "Worldy life = useless, Hereafter = main goal", but then turning around and having stuff like "The Prophet's Multiple Wives, Killing & Looting other people, etc"
-Are there any verses / themes in The Qur'an, which show that God's (in The Qur'an) Desires, and The Prophet's Desires, do not align? Is there anything in The Qur'an that doesn't benefit The Prophet?

and the main one:

-Is there anything, anything in The Qur'an, which, if it was NOT from a human, would NOT make sense that it was there?

Also, one final note, I didn't quote any verses because there are a lot of things I wanted to go over, but if you need any specific verses please let me know with what verse are you talking about and I think I can find it and I'll post it.

Also, Jafar, please don't post here, apologies for not putting it lightly but I don't want your hippie, new-age takes on this, honestly you might be on to something but you already don't believe in The Qur'ans divinity so your input would not be helpful in the least.

[jkhan]

Halloo...
Hope you are doing fine...
Peace to you...

Below is one of your comments..

And let me be absolute clear here, I believe in God 100%, granted assuming The Qur'an is falsehood [would be so sad...], I wouldn't know much about God... but still I do believe in God, I do believe in a Creator, in The Creator, so keep that in mind, I'm not an atheist nor do I plan to be, ever.

In Sha Allah I would like to discuss with you in all your concerns if you bear with me...

But before that i would like to know why You absolutely believe in God, Creator? What makes you believe? Give me minimum five robust reasons ....
In addition when i went through your long post what i grasped is your thoughts are slightly negative.. It doesn't meant that i am advising you to be positive and prejudiced ... but i don't see application of neutral perspectives in you reply... in case if you have chosen to be neutral, you would have found answers to all your questions by yourself.. Coz you explained clearly for that you must have understood the book but took it negatively...
it is hard to explain to all your question at once.. it won't make easy for the readers to concentrate... in case if you are further interested to continue, pls be kind enough to ask your questions one by one or two at a time... So, i wish if you pass two questions out of these so lets discuss them.. then take others gradually...
Thank you...

[LiberalGamer]

Peace, alright well here's what I have to say, please bear with me:

First of all thank you for reading what I have to say and for then responding as well, yes I will admit that I was a lot more negative in my post then was fair, and the main reason for that is because I feel that throughout me reading The Qur'an, I was being overtly positive, like I'd find something that didn't make sense I'd usually ignore it, and honestly I don't think that's a bad approach especially if The Qur'an is from God, since we aught to be patient with stuff we don't understand, but still because I did feel as if I had been positive with The Qur'an for the most part, I felt a need to be negative here.
Plus if we can, God Willingly, debunk these arguments, I think it would be more powerful to debunk the steelman version of the arguments then the neutral versions, if that makes sense.
Because idk if I made this clear or not but while I was negative in my post I don't denounce The Qur'an at all, I'm, Insha Allah, not doing a 180 and saying it's all falsehood 100% or even that it isn't from God, in fact I hope I'm wrong for a majority of points, but idk I felt the need to get these points off of my chest and hopefully Insha Allah either debunk them, or see that they do hold water, and in that case I'd probably try to idk find something else idk.

Anyway the second point, um, five reasons are a lot but here's my attempt I guess, but keep in mind I am very much so influenced by The Qur'an + these may be weak bcz I didn't really have a lot of time to flush things out

1). Creation implies if not demands a Creator , especially Creation as intrecate as ours, granted this doesn't tell us much about The Creator, but there are certain things you can derive from the fact, like for example The Creator can't really be less powerful then it's Creation.
2). taking something else as Lord, I realized, say I became an atheist or something, I would just end up taking something else as my Lord, as my purpose, be it family, career, a hobby, a community, etc. Ultimately if I wanted to live a meaningful life I realized I'd probably end up picking something as my crux, so then realizing I'll probably end up doing so, I decided to choose God, The Creator, as my crux I guess.
3). I dunno dude death I guess, we'll all die and I do believe that once we do we'll know a bit more then we do now, and I do wanna be sincere and truthful and truthfully I do believe God exists, I guess, idk
4). I dunno Life's beautiful and even if there's a 0.00001% chance that God exists I still want to Thank Him for giving me life and hopefully do right by Him
5). If we're talking about God's Existence, the fact that life exists is just reason enough on it's own that I aught to try and do right by God, it might not convince people that He Exists and truth be told I don't care, this isn't about their belief it's about mine, I would phrase it like this 'I exist, there's a possibility of a Creator, just the fact that I exist is reason enough to try and do right by Him"

6). personal but I did promise to myself, and I suppose to God, that I would believe & have faith in Him no matter what, not always in The Qur'an or The Bible, but always in Him.
7). faith I guess, I chose to have Faith in Him.
8].plus there's like an inherit sort of sense that He does idk what to say.

dude idk but yeah, idk, am sounding very uncertain in these points but it's cause I am, like the first point's probably the strongest point, maybe the 5th one is as well, but ultimately I believe in God because I just do idk what to say.
But if you wanna make the argument that, because idk, if The Qur'an isn't holy then that means that The Creator doesn't exist, I don't think that really holds water because like, if I say "the sky is blue but also pigs fly", and you don't believe that I'm telling the truth, that doesn't mean the sky isn't blue, y'know.

But okay I digressed, anyway yea I agree there are a lot of questions, but I guess my two most important ones would be, and they sort of go hand in hand:

-From my perspective there are a ton of proofs that God Exists, as The Qur'an points out as well [signs in nature, day and night, etc], but the problem I have is Proving that God Exists != Proving that The Qur'an is from God, the only proof we have for that is that it claims to be from God, and the problem with that, well, is that there are a lot of other people who also claim that they are from God, and plus that doesn't really suffice as proof since technically anyone can claim anything to be from God and they'd be on the same level as The Qur'an, right? I mean I dunno...

Perhaps a possible piece of proof would be if it was clear that The Messenger and the One whom he claims to speak for are clearly different entities, but the problem with that is, and truthfully what got me into the whole debacle, is the question?

-Is there anything in The Qur'an which goes against The Prophet's desires / is there anything in The Qur'an which proves that God's (in the Qur'an) desires and The Prophets desires don't always align?

And the problem I have is that it seems like... no, it seems like everything in the Qur'an also conveniently either benefits the prophet, or doesn't really affect the prophet that much.

So in a nutshell, two main questions:

-let's assume that God Exists, how does that prove that The Qur'an is from God?
-is there anything in The Qur'an which shows that God's (in the Qur'an) desires and The Prophets desires don't always align?

[good logic]

Here is my take on why I am studying Qoran:
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=206
If one exhausts all avenues and cannot go further with Qoran, then the logical and easy way is to part company with Qoran and concentrate on their preferable priorities .
if one expects from their  Creator proofs and help and persist then who better to give them help ,support and even miracles than the Creator?
"Do not rush with Qoran " or  do you have no time to spare for it?
Only you know how far you are willing to go before you reach the end.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[LiberalGamer]

Peace good logic.
Thank you for your post, it did resonate with me.
I do think you're right, and ultimately, Insha Allah, despite these doubts I don't think I'll dismiss The Qur'an entirely, or at all.
Admittedly though since these doubts The Qur'an did take a peg down from "It is 99.99% from God" to "It might be from God, I'll try to take a look, and I'll try not to dismiss it, but ultimately I don't know for certain"
I don't know, honestly, like I do still hope that God will increase me in knowledge and I'll be able to figure out the answer to the question I posed, the one about desires and whatnot, since that is the main one bugging me currently, but I dunno.
Thanks for your post and peace.

[jkhan]

Peace, alright well here's what I have to say, please bear with me:

First of all thank you for reading what I have to say and for then responding as well, yes I will admit that I was a lot more negative in my post then was fair, and the main reason for that is because I feel that throughout me reading The Qur'an, I was being overtly positive, like I'd find something that didn't make sense I'd usually ignore it, and honestly I don't think that's a bad approach especially if The Qur'an is from God, since we aught to be patient with stuff we don't understand, but still because I did feel as if I had been positive with The Qur'an for the most part, I felt a need to be negative here.
Plus if we can, God Willingly, debunk these arguments, I think it would be more powerful to debunk the steelman version of the arguments then the neutral versions, if that makes sense.
Because idk if I made this clear or not but while I was negative in my post I don't denounce The Qur'an at all, I'm, Insha Allah, not doing a 180 and saying it's all falsehood 100% or even that it isn't from God, in fact I hope I'm wrong for a majority of points, but idk I felt the need to get these points off of my chest and hopefully Insha Allah either debunk them, or see that they do hold water, and in that case I'd probably try to idk find something else idk.

Anyway the second point, um, five reasons are a lot but here's my attempt I guess, but keep in mind I am very much so influenced by The Qur'an + these may be weak bcz I didn't really have a lot of time to flush things out

1). Creation implies if not demands a Creator , especially Creation as intrecate as ours, granted this doesn't tell us much about The Creator, but there are certain things you can derive from the fact, like for example The Creator can't really be less powerful then it's Creation.
2). taking something else as Lord, I realized, say I became an atheist or something, I would just end up taking something else as my Lord, as my purpose, be it family, career, a hobby, a community, etc. Ultimately if I wanted to live a meaningful life I realized I'd probably end up picking something as my crux, so then realizing I'll probably end up doing so, I decided to choose God, The Creator, as my crux I guess.
3). I dunno dude death I guess, we'll all die and I do believe that once we do we'll know a bit more then we do now, and I do wanna be sincere and truthful and truthfully I do believe God exists, I guess, idk
4). I dunno Life's beautiful and even if there's a 0.00001% chance that God exists I still want to Thank Him for giving me life and hopefully do right by Him
5). If we're talking about God's Existence, the fact that life exists is just reason enough on it's own that I aught to try and do right by God, it might not convince people that He Exists and truth be told I don't care, this isn't about their belief it's about mine, I would phrase it like this 'I exist, there's a possibility of a Creator, just the fact that I exist is reason enough to try and do right by Him"

6). personal but I did promise to myself, and I suppose to God, that I would believe & have faith in Him no matter what, not always in The Qur'an or The Bible, but always in Him.
7). faith I guess, I chose to have Faith in Him.
8].plus there's like an inherit sort of sense that He does idk what to say.

dude idk but yeah, idk, am sounding very uncertain in these points but it's cause I am, like the first point's probably the strongest point, maybe the 5th one is as well, but ultimately I believe in God because I just do idk what to say.
But if you wanna make the argument that, because idk, if The Qur'an isn't holy then that means that The Creator doesn't exist, I don't think that really holds water because like, if I say "the sky is blue but also pigs fly", and you don't believe that I'm telling the truth, that doesn't mean the sky isn't blue, y'know.

But okay I digressed, anyway yea I agree there are a lot of questions, but I guess my two most important ones would be, and they sort of go hand in hand:

-From my perspective there are a ton of proofs that God Exists, as The Qur'an points out as well [signs in nature, day and night, etc], but the problem I have is Proving that God Exists != Proving that The Qur'an is from God, the only proof we have for that is that it claims to be from God, and the problem with that, well, is that there are a lot of other people who also claim that they are from God, and plus that doesn't really suffice as proof since technically anyone can claim anything to be from God and they'd be on the same level as The Qur'an, right? I mean I dunno...

Perhaps a possible piece of proof would be if it was clear that The Messenger and the One whom he claims to speak for are clearly different entities, but the problem with that is, and truthfully what got me into the whole debacle, is the question?

-Is there anything in The Qur'an which goes against The Prophet's desires / is there anything in The Qur'an which proves that God's (in the Qur'an) desires and The Prophets desires don't always align?

And the problem I have is that it seems like... no, it seems like everything in the Qur'an also conveniently either benefits the prophet, or doesn't really affect the prophet that much.

So in a nutshell, two main questions:

-let's assume that God Exists, how does that prove that The Qur'an is from God?
-is there anything in The Qur'an which shows that God's (in the Qur'an) desires and The Prophets desires don't always align?

No one can prove that God does exist... it is out and out sheer guidance from God to accept Him.. it is a vast knowledge within a person go for the option of Existence of a Creator behind all these.. or else just can leave it saying no one created anything... if created then one behind it and if not created then no one behind it.. So one should use his knowledge through nature (whatever exists) whether these things are created or evolved naturally... so depending on the option selected it drives one to accept existence of God and Non-existence of God..
Okay let me turn to your point...
Thank You for replying stating your key reasons to believe in the Creator.. It is totally your personal choice like anyone else... But one thing is common between a normal believer and you.. That is Believing in God... Difference is you are undetermined or reluctant to accept that the complete Quran which came through Prophet couldn't possibly from the God that you believe 100%. ... But, it is not mere statement of yours, but to succor that you listed your logical reasons picking certain verses from Quran... It is absolutely fine for anyone to have their own understanding.. Coz you have a valid reason within your knowledge... but if your understanding is fragile in those concerned verses and if you find the comprehensive explanation subduing your understanding, then you have to decide neutrally like you decided that God does exist.. coz knowing the truth merely won't make one to choose the truth, but it needs sheer quality of a person to accept truth....

-let's assume that God Exists, how does that prove that The Qur'an is from God?
To grasp this one cannot have blind faith... like you, one has to go through all conundrums in life.. Your problematic points in accepting Quran shouldn't make you feel negative and end from there.. the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran... Either you have to comprehensively debate in a good platform or self-perceive diligently ... when you reach to the simmering point in Quran if you give up taking one side assuming right then the result is you will most probably reach to the boiling point.. Thus you will start claiming that this Quran cannot be from God..

-is there anything in The Qur'an which shows that God's (in the Qur'an) desires and The Prophets desires don't always align?
First of all you should understand that God and Prophet are TWO not one.. But, God and Messenger are ONE....

4:165 "Messengers as bringers of good Tidings and Warners so that mankind will have no argument against Allah after the messengers.

God's wish is to pass the message of His existence through His Messengers ... God's wish cannot be compared with human being's desire.. of course Prophet was a human being... Note well the above verse... Glad Tidings for whom? For Human being.. so it is something that is pleasant for entire human being... it is not the desire of Prophet alone... What is Warning? In my understanding 'an advance announcement of something which may not be pleasant or the consequences of neglecting the advance notice may not give pleasurable results.."... Now once these Glad Tidings and Warnings are issued there should not be any argument..
So.. you singled out the desire... Can we include desire into glad tidings? Yes.. So glad tidings are not merely for Prophet but for entire human race... so does Warning... Warning is for Prophet and entire human being.. Message is for human being and the message is from God, so it should align or comply with human wishes which are righteous if it is in fact glad tidings..
For example... Prophet never wanted to marry his fostered son's ex-wife... These are not lies... coz these incidents were active in the society... Prophet is shy but not God... What if when Prophet said to his fostered son keep your wife and if his fostered son agreed thinking it is a message from God... Is that a desire of any father to marry his fostered son's ex-wife? So that desire of prophet aligned with God's? Well... that's a blasphemy... isn't it?
When Quran says, All messengers are same and don't make any distinction with one another... What benefit for Prophet by this verse? Why can't he make himself more elite than rest of the prophets... Why verse doesn't state Mohamed is the best prophet ..... you know everyone human has a tendency to have a grip over others.. isn't it.. Why Mohamed as a messenger is equal with others? Why there is no verse to indicate saying God directly spoke to Mohamed like God talked to Musa? Such things should be desire of Mohamed if he in fact forge verses.. okay let's hope Mohamed included something into Quran to suit his desire as you possibly presume.. In that case would God be silent while God is delivering His own Message and his own Messenger is deliberately changing it..
Still if you are not convinced, let me ask in this manner.... As per you, you do believe in God.. That's great... So, are you saying that God is silent without letting his Creations know that He wants us to behave in such and such manner? So we are free creatures to do whatever we feel right since Quran or Torah or any other book or Messengers who came before all liar possibly...

[Emre_1974tr]

Again:

Everyone is free to believe what they wish, according to Quran. This is the goal of the test world. To confront yourself.

Quran only allows a war of defense.

If you read the full of the verses, you will always see the struggle with the attackers in the defense battle.

Example;

2:190 Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.

2:191 Fight them wherever you meet them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. Do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then fight them. Thus is the reward of those who do not appreciate.

2:192 If they cease, then God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

2:193 Fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God's. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.

***********

Here again, He says, fight with the attackers.

But if you pull out a single verse. You make it look like saying the opposite.

And look at:

49:9 And if two parties of believers battle with each other, you shall reconcile them; but if one of them aggresses against the other, then you shall fight the one aggressing until it complies with the command of God. Once it complies, then you shall reconcile the two groups with justice, and be equitable; for God loves those who are equitable.

As you can see saying, if the attackers are Muslims, stop them too.

[LiberalGamer]

Peace jkhan, thank you for your reply.

I suppose you're right on the first point, truth be told I would say among all of the other ones, the main reason I do believe in the existence of God is due to His Guidance, I suppose I just have this natural inclination to believe in God, the atheists might say it's because of the fear of the unknown or whatever like that and tbh I don't think that's it, I can't pinpoint exactly why, but I will admit that I don't believe in God on purely 100% rational reasoning alone.

anyway... I am a bit confused on your second point, more specifically "Difference is you are undetermined or reluctant to accept that the complete Quran which came through Prophet couldn't possibly from the God that you believe 100%. ", don't really know what you mean, but if you mean what I think you mean then yea, I don't believe 100% that The Qur'an is not from God, but unfortunately I don't believe 100% that The Qur'an is from God either.

"then you have to decide neutrally like you decided that God does exist", yea, I guess I did, but tbh I think I did always have this sorta inclination, maybe.
Like the inclination that even if The Qur'an ends up being a complete hoax, that that won't fully destroy my faith in God, because I believe that the concept of The Creator, that God surprasses my understanding of The Qur'an.

"To grasp this one cannot have blind faith... like you, one has to go through all conundrums in life.. Your problematic points in accepting Quran shouldn't make you feel negative and end from there.. the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran... "
Well, I don't know, honestly, but I have to ask what's wrong with blind faith? isn't all faith blind? I dunno dude, like I think I understand you, but I don't know if I agree.
Because like listen, here's my view:
Either Islam / The Qur'an is a Universal Religion or a Local Religion.

A Local Religion would mean that it's like every other religion, you have this book, you accept this book, you accept the beliefs, you're good, and that's that, and if you don't accept the book well you can get another religion, and tbh I'm a bit against this, beacuse it seems like every religion is like this, especially including sunni islam, you either accept the doctrines or you leave, it seems based on faith alone.

But A Universal Religion would be something that has principles which are universally applied, mythology that can be reasoned towards, and to me The Qur'an Alone view seemed to really lean in this direction, with verses like 2:62 [those who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds]... and stuff like that.
And honestly it still does seem to lean in that direction which is why I believe it to be closer to the truth then the other religions, but the reason I'm bringing this up is because if you believe that it is a universal religion, as I do, then you believe that you can reason for it's idea of God even without having it directly, because it is the truth, and if you believe that, then we're just back where we started, because we've concluded outside of any religious text that God exists, but that doesn't prove the validity of one text above another, I guess, idk honestly.
"the best way is to find solution to your conundrum within Quran... "
I would and I will still try, God Willingly, but it seems like the answer to my conundrum is just "if you don't believe The Prophet is A Prophet, then you're in for a painful punishment"


And finally for your last point, thanks for your response, but truth be told I think I didn't really convey what I wanted to convey clearly, I've tried to convey it more clearly down below in the semi last paragraph.

"Glad Tidings for whom? For Human being.. so it is something that is pleasant for entire human being... it is not the desire of Prophet alone... "
I know, and I do agree like, if this is sent from God it is glad tidings and warnings as well... but the problem is is that this is only the case if you assume that this is the truth, and not a fabriciation that the messenger made up.
If you assume that it is not the truth, then the 'glad tidings' are not really glad at all since they're not truthful, rather they are false hopes to get his followers to follow him, y'know, that's what I'm trying to get at, if it's false it benefits the prophet, if it's true it benefits the people and the prophet, but the fact is is that if it's false it does still benefit the prophet.

Bear with me because this
"For example... Prophet never wanted to marry his fostered son's ex-wife... These are not lies... coz these incidents were active in the society... Prophet is shy but not God... What if when Prophet said to his fostered son keep your wife and if his fostered son agreed thinking it is a message from God... Is that a desire of any father to marry his fostered son's ex-wife? So that desire of prophet aligned with God's? Well... that's a blasphemy... isn't it?""
But here's the thing, if you assume that The Qur'an is fabricated, and that Mohamed was making stuff up, then this does make sense once again.
Mohamed would've wanted to marry his adopted's son ex wife, and then since, in this lens, he fabricated The Qur'an, he could easily claim that God said that he has to marry his adpoted's son ex wife.
I mean to provide an alternative: if God said no to him marrying his adopted's son's wife, wouldn't that be more powerful? That would mean that if he really was fabricating stuff, he would be forbidding stuff that he wanted to do, which makes no sense, so in that case it is more logical to assume that at the very least he wasn't maliciously fabricating stuff.
Hope you understood what I'm trying to say.

"When Quran says, All messengers are same and don't make any distinction with one another... What benefit for Prophet by this verse? Why can't he make himself more elite than rest of the prophets... Why verse doesn't state Mohamed is the best prophet ..... you know everyone human has a tendency to have a grip over others.. isn't it.. Why Mohamed as a messenger is equal with others? Why there is no verse to indicate saying God directly spoke to Mohamed like God talked to Musa? Such things should be desire of Mohamed if he in fact forge verses.."
But you see that's the problem, while at first this seems like a good point, here's the thing:
No other messenger is/was alive at the time of Mohamed.
So when Mohamed claims that he is no more elite then any other Messenger, while that sounds good at first, it literally doesn't affect him because there is no other messenger alive that would take from his elite-ness.
This verse, if you assume it's a fabrication, would basically be saying "Messengers are more elite then normal people, I'm not better then any other messenger, but I'm also the only alive messenger, therefore I am the only elite person alive"
It ultimately doesn't affect him, all it does is once again benefit him because his followers could claim what you are claiming.


"Still if you are not convinced, let me ask in this manner.... As per you, you do believe in God.. That's great... So, are you saying that God is silent without letting his Creations know that He wants us to behave in such and such manner? So we are free creatures to do whatever we feel right since Quran or Torah or any other book or Messengers who came before all liar possibly..."
This... honestly is a good question, but it's still not really anything super solid, because you could apply the same thing to the people who didn't have The Qur'an for the last millenium or so, people in japan or rural africa who never heard of The Qur'an, what about them?
But yea no this is still a good question.



Thank you for bearing with me and honestly I did once again approach this in a negative manner, apologies for that, I am eagerly awaiting your reply and I hope I wasn't too harsh...

Honestly I did ramble quite a bit, if you wish to respond, and I would appreciate that, here would be the main thing I'd like your view on, my main conundrum so far in a nutshell, I guess:
'If you assume that The Qur'an is inspired by God, a lot of things make sense... but there are also a lot of things don't line up, like killing / war, worldy life, etc. [I went over the things that didn't make sense to me in the original post]
But if you assume that The Qur'an is written by a human living in the 7th century, a lot more things make sense, and the things that previously made sense seem to make more sense through this lens. Hell, Killing / War, Worldy Life, Punishments, Threats, that's my main conundrum, the fact that, if you believe it is from God, 60% of things make sense, 40% of things don't make sense, and if you assume it's from a human from the 7th century, it seems like 95% of the things make sense, 5% of the things maybe don't make sense.

So my question in a nutshell is, are there any verses / themes / principles from The Qur'an that, should it be viewed from a human 7th century lens, just wouldn't make sense at all for it being there, but should it be viewed from the 'Inspired by God' lens, it makes a lot more sense?'

Thank you for your reply honestly and apologies if I misconstrued anything you said, truth be told I am having a bit of difficulty understanding what you're trying to get across, but I hope I understood the main points you were making.
Peace.

[LiberalGamer]

Peace emre.

Yes I do see and honestly I do agree, the verses you brought up are cool.
But I still can't lie when I say that, when I read the 8th, 9th, 33rd, or 59th surah, they still seem rather cruel...

But that's not even my main point, my main point is that, idk honestly, I might very well be mistaken, but a lot of these things, the calls to fight back and all that seem written from a human perspective I guess idk, rather then from God's.
I mean God constantly talks about those in patience, and talks about how ultimately this life is just a very short life, and the hereafter is the true home, because it's literally for eternity, but then when The Prophet pbuh and the believers get attacked, all of a sudden God says to fight back?

Like think about it this way, if The Prophet and the believers were never attacked, would those violent verses exist? And if the answer is no, then that seems really unfair

It seems way too reactionary, like times are peaceful The Qur'an is advocating for patience and doing good even in hardship, times turn violent and all of a sudden it's now "fight back", I don't know honestly

In a nutshell it seems like the principle of patience wasn't applied universally, but I don't know honestly I am not in a very good place right now and I think my reasoning and approach is very flawed, I look forward to hearing your response.
Peace.

[Emre_1974tr]

Peace LiberalGamer

The verses clearly teach that it is right to defend yourself. It is even stated that it is necessary in some cases. Because being a bystander to oppression and oppressing oneself is also cruelty.

By the way, the permission to cut the hands and legs diagonally mentioned in verse 5:33 is also self-defense and retaliation:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9609989.msg412402;topicseen#msg412402

And; If this permission was not mentioned in the verses, this time Muslims would not be able to defend themselves at all. Because in other verses it is stated that killing is a great sin. Those who read the Qur'an would think that war in self-defense is also prohibited this time, if it was not told that war is allowed in special circumstances.