Author Topic: Elucidating the Sunni Shia sectarian cleavage  (Read 630 times)

theNabster

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Elucidating the Sunni Shia sectarian cleavage
« on: August 23, 2021, 10:06:30 AM »
Note: Controversial & might offend sectarians -
Elucidating the Sunni Shia sectarian cleavage - On the treachery of Hejaz House of Quraysh against the family of Prophet Mohamed aka in Qur'an as ahl al beyt.

After reading a thread on Abu Hanifa here, I started revisiting hadiths & will not accept any other madhab after Abu Hanifa as Abu Hanifa was chronologically the first one to gather hadiths, & those after him made a mess of it allowing leaderships to dictate content even when erroneous so long as it benefitted them, it seems also the first one of importance to do so was one of the most prominent companion of Prophet Mohamed (P).

This is collated from threads i put on @Twitter & collated in @Facebook - I now input them here.

Caution: this is what I feel is right, & I do not wish to debate it, I am just stating my stand & feelings about the matter which in fact I happen to feel strongly about. We need context to Qur'an, hadiths offer some, reports from other sources offer some, etc. Qur'an says listen to what is said & follow the best thereof, that this is a sign of intelligence for a Believer.

One of my dear activists pundits followers on @Twitter referred me to a small essay written by a Shia scholar, it was published on a Shia website, & the website piqued my curiosity as I was never seriously exposed to Shia theological literature.

I am an interesting case with multiple origins lineage: Arab, Jew, Berber, Turk, Visigoth...
I am a descendant of Aures Jewess Queen Kahina Dahyia & of Idriss II through mother & father.
My ancestor Idriss II is a descendant of Hasan son of Ali & Fatima daughter of Prophet Mohamed, Idriss II's father is a descendant of Idriss I who was the founder of Morocco.

So I am now exploring my Arab heritage, & one thing I neglected because of my reluctance to endorse sects & sectarians was to look into the Shia side of the story regarding Prophet Mohamed mission of delivering Qur'an, but I am now convinced, thanks to convincing articles published on that website giving enough rationales to my satisfaction that the progeny of Mohamed, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hossein & descendants also known as ahl al beyt got a very rough deal from Quraysh.

This is a controversial subject I tried to avoid, but I felt the urge to hear the Shia side of the divide that plagued the Islamic Community after the assassination of Ali cousin of Prophet Mohamed & husband of his daughter Fatima (Fatima's mother being Khadija, first wife of Prophet Mohamed).
I put a thread on this in @Twitter & I will give the link later...

1st @Twitter link - https://twitter.com/inabster/status/1423279064048144384

Thread on exploring my Arab heritage discussing ahl al beyt & Qureysh betrayal - Part 2 -
https://twitter.com/owhy3/status/1423714996035280899

Analysis, background & comments -

I am Arab Jew, but also descendant of Prophet Mohamed through mother & father via Sidi M'hamed Moussa... Idris II, Idris I founder of Morocco, up to Hassan, Ali & Fatima, I only accept Qur'an as binding - reading this https://al-islam.org/caliphate-and-imamate-ahmad-namaee made me angry at the four 1st Caliphs.

This is the start of a thread exploring my Arab heritage & one thing I neglected because of my reluctance to endorse sects & sectarians, but it looks like progeny of Mohamed, Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hossein & descendants also known as ahl al beyt got a very rough deal from Quraysh.

It is very unlikely I will endorse the Shia creed though as I do not accept their imamate theological tenets & structure, but Ali should have been the first Caliph & his descendant Hassan or Husseyn the second Caliph. This is based on the records available on Mohamed (P).

In my view & understanding of the history, Abu Bakr, Umar ibn al Khatab & Uthman were usurpers who stole the leadership from ahl al beyt. What we inherited was Muawiya & his son Yazid who were closer to Rome's Caligula than to devout servants of Allah.

So & deeply sadly from the word go after the death of Mohamed (P), the nascent Medina Muslim community was undermined by power struggles among the closest companions of the Prophet who ignored his recommendation to appoint Ali as his successor, they will be questioned about this.

Personally I see in the Ottoman Turks an effort to bring back a measure of decency to the structuring of theology in a Kingdom, indeed Turks were the ones Allah said He will replace Arabs with, He replaced the power hungry House of Quraysh by the Kayi Oghuz descendant Turks.

Arabs in the form of Donmeh & Najd who already were fierce opponents of Islam in times of Mohamed (P) again in the 20th century betrayed the Ottoman Muslims by siding with the British Crown & taking over the whole Arab peninsula inclusive of Hejaz, Najran, Jizan & Asir.

& that is all I have to say on this subject, only those who accept & implement Qur'an without malice in their lives are whom we can call Believers, anything else is hypocrisy/nifaq.

In fact reading with horror how Fatima, Ali, Hassan & Huseyn were treated by Abu Bakr, Quraysh, Umar & Uthman urges me to carry on writing about these matters which concern my own heritage as descendant of Hassan myself, these were in violation to Prophet Mohamed's instructions.
I can appreciate why this cleaved Islam into two factions & until recently I have not taken sides, preferring to refer to Qur'an as the only legitimate arbiter of events concerning Believers & those who accept it as scripture.

Reading Hadith al-Kisa, The Narration / Tradition of the Cloak moved me greatly & I can accept the truth of it, this shifts my perception somewhat, but goes within the light that I am revisiting hadiths, & it is only logical that I listen to both sides of the divide.
https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-13-no-1-spring-2012/hadith-al-kisa-narration-cloak-gholam-hossein-masoud/hadith

Hadith al-Kisa, The Narration of the Cloak posted here together with commentary by Gholam Hossein MasoudPhD in law and member of the University Academic Board - via @al_islam_org - https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-13-no-1-spring-2012/hadith-al-kisa-narration-cloak-gholam-hossein-masoud/hadith

For many years (from mid 1980's) up until rejecting them in 2000, I immersed myself into Sunni theology even though didn't make much effort to do so as I was just surfing the Sunnis' wave I chose to associate with.

So until @owhy3 referred me the website Shia was a mystery to me.
"What you were doing is the right approach for understanding a major religion and culture that the West still ignore at its own risk, fact that TW allow and facilitate such exchanges is positive whatsoever"...

My ex sunni associates had only bad things to say about the Shia, your link is helping me to understand better what is at stake, the power struggle between Quraysh & the family of the Prophet they usurped power from shows me that none are really innocent among either factions.

But the Quraysh & Abu Sufyan clan are more to blame for Islam's undermining from the word go in fact, leading to the Umayyads caligulesque reign followed by the Abbasids decadent follow up which ended with the Mongols' destruction. Still early for me to make a clear statement.
Bear in mind that I am not a scholar or cleric, thank God for that as I would have been brainwashed in one of the sects.

For now all I can understand is that indeed the family of the Prophet were badly wronged, their honour besmirched & them being massacred by the power hungry Caliphs Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Mu'3awiyah, Yazid & Abassids through Imam Shafi'3 & their followers afterwards.

The descendants of the Prophet owe their lives to fleeing towards North Africa, me being one descendant in point.

While reading the article, I couldn't help feel the love shown by the writer towards the family of Prophet Mohamed, Fatima, Ali, Hassan & Huseyn;
I felt moved to tears, maybe a testament to my feeling its authenticity, after all these are my ancestors, even though I'm also mixed Arab Jew Berber Turk.

Maybe this would prompt me to swerve again & appreciate the treasures I was deprived of through the Sunni narratives of my mid-1980 to 2000 mystical journey started in Brighton, Sussex, UK & which took me to Richmond, Vancouver, BC, Singapore, Malaysia & Russia.

I will keep feeding this thread with my theological findings & what it means for Muslims, especially leaderships, "obey the Messenger & you will not obey him until there is no rancour in your hearts about what he orders you, & you submit in full submission".

I declare & accept that all of Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman did not obey posthumously the Messenger's express directive that they should honour & protect ahl al beyt who are Prophet Mohamed's family Fatima, Ali, Hassan & Huseyn whom I am related to by lineage as being my ancestors.

Furthermore they didn't obey the Messenger's directive to make Ali the heir in leadership of the Muslim Ummah, he should've been the first Caliph/Commander/Imam, they therefore are usurpers, this is why Islam got destabilised giving a chance to cancers like Umayyads to take over.

Before I continue I'd like to praise, glorify & thank Allah the majestic creator of all that is who is beyond any of the fabrications #Hypocrites & subversives of truth, liars attribute to Him, Allah who inspired in me to look into the veracity & truth of traditions & hadiths.

Verily there are good & bad traditions, bad traditions send the souls of humans astray, glorifying turpitude, inequity & injustice & the good traditions encourage & nurture what is good for the soul, for salvation & pleasing to the god of mankind, the king of mankind.

Attributing lies about Allah & His Messenger & immediate family to reap a paltry gain of power & lucre is vile & a grievous wrong towards one's soul & His Creator, a token of ingratitude that can only lead to the fire.

Yet it is exactly what at the highest level of leadership was done against the Prophet & his family, I feel very privileged Allah has opened my eyes & woken me of my slumber to look into the events after the death of Prophet Mohamed & the deep & serious gravity of what they did.

The fabrication of hadiths or sayings of Prophet Mohamed to benefit leaderships happened even in the life of Prophet Mohamed, when he was alive those who followed him inclusive of his companions were mandated by Allah to obey him, & it is what they are meant to do.

It would have been impossible for a companion of the Prophet to disobey an express order he made as God gave him authority that they should obey him, as revelations were pouring live if Mohamed (P) made a mistake in what he ordered, it was swift to correct him.

Also the orders Prophet Mohamed gave before his death would have been still valid after his death to his contemporaries, his companions, whether they were explicitly described in Qur'an or not.

What makes me reject completely the Caliphate of Abu Bakr, Umar & Uthman is that they failed to obey direct orders from the Prophet as regards his son in law Ali & his daughter Fatima, one that sticks in mind is that of Fadak as described here - https://www.al-islam.org/fadak-allamah-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/fadak

This analysis is damning to Abu Bakr who made a grievous sin not only disobeying a direct order from Mohamed (P), but in the process defiling the honour, dignity & integrity of Mohamed's daughter, worse Abu Bakr went as far as fabricating a hadith he attributed to Mohamed (P) ./.

./. ... worse Abu Bakr went as far as fabricating a hadith he attributed to Mohamed (P) to deny Fatima daughter of Mohamed her inheritance rights...
It is not befitting of someone who was to lead the Muslim community that he be in contempt of a Prophet's direct order but also he would fabricate a saying he attributes to him to implement his edict against Fatima, & it gets worse as violence was afterwards used against her.

The hadith he fabricated is in clear contravention of the Quranic text itself, it fabricates that descendants of Prophets do not & cannot inherit property to their offspring, this was a lie against Mohamed (P) who would never state an edict that contradicts Qur'an!

It made a very damaging precedent for the future of the nascent Muslim community whom the closest companions of the Prophet Abu Bakr & Omar started, that it is OK to be expedient & create false hadiths to get what they wanted, something Mu'3awiha used later to undermine Ali.

That was I believe the evil seed that led to the evil reign of Mu'3awiya, his son Yazid & early divisions whom Aisha daughter of Abu Bakr was complicit to, which finally led to martyrdom of Ali, poisoning of his son Hasan & slaying/martyrdom of his son Huseyn in Karbala.

Allah who knows everything is witness to my grievance, the Muslim community has suffered greatly from this evil & it is time to put the record straight which has been obfuscated through false narratives & fake hadiths by unprincipled clerics & scholars who perpetuated the lies.

Unprincipled clerics & scholars perpetuated lies against Ali & Ahl-Al-Beyt so the Arabs of Quraysh, Abu Bakr, Omar & Uthman be absolved of any wrongdoing.
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth.

theNabster

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Re: Elucidating the Sunni Shia sectarian cleavage
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2021, 05:13:40 PM »
Just posted on @Twitter a continuation on my exploring Shia doctrine & why I reject their imamate system -

Imamate are like Rabbinate or Priesthood.

Allah in Qur'an says that He did not decree Rabbinate, therefore by induction He cannot have decreed Imamate, & this is why I reject both,

also He adds that they did not give their invention its proper due, i.e. they didn't follow it properly even if though they invented it.

Rabbinate is traced back to Aaron (P) brother of Moses (P) who implemented it (after Moses' death) - as he believed this will protect Children of Israel from another Golden Calf incident.

Priesthood is a continuation of Rabbinate in Christianity.

So my stand which is Qur'an is that I cannot support Shia doctrine nor can I support the imamate it is based on.
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth.

SarahY

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Re: Elucidating the Sunni Shia sectarian cleavage
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2021, 02:03:39 PM »
I feel the Imamate messes with the Shia credibility although Zaildis seem to make more sense with it.

In regards to rightful leadership, I think there is abit of ambiguity of who was truly rightful. It's been a long while since I read about it. However I do ponder, if the succession of the Prophet was clear in Ghadir Khum, there doesn't seem to be much historical contention when Abu Bakr took leadership.



 

We all have blind spots.
Follow your heart but take your brain with you.
ambiguity is there for a reason, why do you think?
We're all different, so how can we all be equal?

theNabster

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Re: Elucidating the Sunni Shia sectarian cleavage
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2021, 02:08:15 AM »
Salam SarahY

I think the dignified stand was that of Ali who for the sake of unity did not challenge with his followers Abu Bakr & Uthman.
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth.

SarahY

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Re: Elucidating the Sunni Shia sectarian cleavage
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2021, 01:35:35 AM »
Salam,

Yes I could understand that perspective. However, as far as I am aware the Shia (Twelverer) perspective is that Ali's succession was a decree from God, which is why it is so significant. If something is a decree from God you would assume there would be more dispute and uproar.

I'm sure the argument of what could've or should've been could go on forever and no doubt many injustices have happened.

We all have blind spots.
Follow your heart but take your brain with you.
ambiguity is there for a reason, why do you think?
We're all different, so how can we all be equal?

theNabster

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Re: Elucidating the Sunni Shia sectarian cleavage
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2021, 12:02:19 PM »
Salam SarahY

As a descendant of Ali, it is my right to lodge my grievance to Allah for the crimes of Abu Bakr, Umar ibn alkhattab, Uthman, Aisha, Abu Sufyan, Mu'awyah & Yazid against Ali, Fatima & ahl al bayt.

There is enough evidence to my satisfaction that they disobeyed direct directives of a Prophet & Messenger who lived among them & who never said succession should be by votes (by extension will people vote for a Messenger or Prophet?)

That being said my stand is:

I reject the Shia creed & the Imamate it is based on.
I also reject the Sunni creed which canonised Hadiths as abrogating Qur'an.

My creed is described in Qur'an only.
It is Abraham's creed which Mohamed (P) followed.

Peace
Nabil H

Salam,

Yes I could understand that perspective. However, as far as I am aware the Shia (Twelverer) perspective is that Ali's succession was a decree from God, which is why it is so significant. If something is a decree from God you would assume there would be more dispute and uproar.

I'm sure the argument of what could've or should've been could go on forever and no doubt many injustices have happened.
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth.