Author Topic: Messengers amoung us?  (Read 1402 times)

LetTheTruthBeTold

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Messengers amoung us?
« on: July 22, 2021, 06:28:00 PM »
Peace everyone...

7:35
O Children of Adam! When messengers of your own come unto you who narrate unto you My revelations, then whosoever refraineth from evil and amendeth - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Do you understand this verse to mean that there will be messengers amoung us today, and forevermore till the end of time?
39:53  Say: "O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of God. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful."

spodacus

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2021, 08:40:29 AM »
Salam, that is my understanding that this ayat is referencing the relatively few truly guided people in our society that publicly call to Allah swt.

Not related to this ayat but a truly guided individual also can gain knowledge from weak believers and even non believer during debate and discussion. One of the rare and hard earned traits of believers is that they can sift through falsehood and pick out the truth. So even a discussion with an atheist, a believer can find the nuggets of truth in their argument and strengthen their Iman. Every interaction with other people is a direct guidance from Allah swt. So we should look out for the signs from Allah in every interaction.

LetTheTruthBeTold

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2021, 10:22:48 AM »
Salam, that is my understanding that this ayat is referencing the relatively few truly guided people in our society that publicly call to Allah swt.

Not related to this ayat but a truly guided individual also can gain knowledge from weak believers and even non believer during debate and discussion. One of the rare and hard earned traits of believers is that they can sift through falsehood and pick out the truth. So even a discussion with an atheist, a believer can find the nuggets of truth in their argument and strengthen their Iman. Every interaction with other people is a direct guidance from Allah swt. So we should look out for the signs from Allah in every interaction.

Peace Spoducas, thank you for your reply.

You know what is interesting? I have met 4 proclaimed messengers, and I have not had one them support the other. Each one of them was denying the other messengerahip. Wouldnt you find this to be odd?

Peace ✌

I also think there are messengers amoung us, but I am bit confused on how to approach this situation, when I, already have the Quran. Please feel free to share your thoughts, thank you.
39:53  Say: "O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of God. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful."

spodacus

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2021, 01:58:44 PM »
Salam, yes I would say that the Quran is the Reminder and any individuals who come along to clarify certain things is how to identify a rasul amongst us. I wouldn't approach a rasul with the intention to gain guidance via following his orders. That type of messenger role has been superceded by the revelation and preservation of the Quran.

tlihawa

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2021, 01:07:46 AM »
Peace everyone...

7:35
O Children of Adam! When messengers of your own come unto you who narrate unto you My revelations, then whosoever refraineth from evil and amendeth - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Do you understand this verse to mean that there will be messengers amoung us today, and forevermore till the end of time?

Salaam LetTheTruthBeTold,
It could be among us today, but I haven't seen any. Same with you, only proclaimed messengers but not support each other.

But I believe that there will come a messenger named Ahmad as told by the Rasul Isa son of Maryam,

61:6   And when Isa, son of Maryam said: "O children of Israel, I am a messenger of God to you, affirming what is between my hands of the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be AHMAD.'" But when he showed them the clear proofs, they said: "This is clearly magic."

He will come at the end of time, because the vision of Isa son of Maryam is about things that will happen in the last days, as told in the following verse,

43:61   And he <Isa son of Maryam> was a knowledge for the Hour. So have no doubt about it. And follow Me; this is a straight path.

and a lot of story in the book of revelation. I also believe the book of Isaiah also support this.

Isaiah 42:1-4

Behold! My Servant, Ahmad (whom I uphold); My Elect One, in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry out, nor raise His voice, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench. In truth He shall bring forth justice. 4He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till He has established justice in the earth; and the islands shall wait for His law.


In Hebrew, whom I uphold is (Etmokh) אחמד means Ahmad. You can paste it in google translate. I believe they made changes to their book because of inter-religious hatred.

They may think like most people that the Ahmad referred to in verse 61:6 is the Prophet Muhammad, so leaving Ahmad in Isaiah is tantamount to "acknowledging the truth of the Prophet Muhammad".

Ahmad in the verse is not prophet Muhammad, because even though they both came after the prophet Isa, prophet Muhammad did not live in the last days, while the vision of Isa son of Maryam was covering the things that will happen at the end of time as told in 43:61

If you familiar with the Apocrypha books  you might be notice that in the Enoch's dream vision said that there will be a sheep with a great horn who will stand tall against evil until the day of judgment.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe086.htm

The Book of Enoch
Chapter XC

6. But behold lambs were borne by those white sheep, and they began to open their eyes and to see, and to cry to the sheep.
7. Yea, they cried to them, but they did not hearken to what they said to them, but were exceedingly deaf, and their eyes were very exceedingly blinded.
8. And I saw in the vision how the ravens flew upon those lambs and took one of those lambs, and dashed the sheep in pieces and devoured them.
9. And I saw till horns grew upon those lambs, and the ravens cast down their horns; and I saw till there sprouted a great horn of one of those sheep, and their eyes were opened.
10. And it looked at them [and their eyes opened], and it cried to the sheep, and the rams saw it and all ran to it.
11. And notwithstanding all this those eagles and vultures and ravens and kites still kept tearing the sheep and swooping down upon them and devouring them: still the sheep remained silent, but the rams lamented and cried out.
12. And those ravens fought and battled with it and sought to lay low its horn, but they had no power over it.


at first, I could recognize this dream vision parable fable style, only from Adam up to prophet Musa and Isa, and still confused for the remaining story. But now I do believe that this last sheep standing is Rasul Ahmad. Rasul that I'm waiting for, who will fight injustice and mark the era of the end times.

I'm sure he doesn't come to give the best interpretation of the Al Quran, or to judge the issues that are often debated by fellow Quranists in here, but he will fight against injustice.

Honestly in my heart I wish I could meet him, support him, and join him.

Peace.


LetTheTruthBeTold

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2021, 01:22:08 AM »
Salaam LetTheTruthBeTold,
It could be among us today, but I haven't seen any. Same with you, only proclaimed messengers but not support each other.

But I believe that there will come a messenger named Ahmad as told by the Rasul Isa son of Maryam,

61:6   And when Isa, son of Maryam said: "O children of Israel, I am a messenger of God to you, affirming what is between my hands of the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be AHMAD.'" But when he showed them the clear proofs, they said: "This is clearly magic."

He will come at the end of time, because the vision of Isa son of Maryam is about things that will happen in the last days, as told in the following verse,

43:61   And he <Isa son of Maryam> was a knowledge for the Hour. So have no doubt about it. And follow Me; this is a straight path.

and a lot of story in the book of revelation. I also believe the book of Isaiah also support this.

Isaiah 42:1-4

Behold! My Servant, Ahmad (whom I uphold); My Elect One, in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry out, nor raise His voice, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench. In truth He shall bring forth justice. 4He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till He has established justice in the earth; and the islands shall wait for His law.


In Hebrew, whom I uphold is (Etmokh) אחמד means Ahmad. You can paste it in google translate. I believe they made changes to their book because of inter-religious hatred.

They may think like most people that the Ahmad referred to in verse 61:6 is the Prophet Muhammad, so leaving Ahmad in Isaiah is tantamount to "acknowledging the truth of the Prophet Muhammad".

Ahmad in the verse is not prophet Muhammad, because even though they both came after the prophet Isa, prophet Muhammad did not live in the last days, while the vision of Isa son of Maryam was covering the things that will happen at the end of time as told in 43:61

If you familiar with the Apocrypha books  you might be notice that in the Enoch's dream vision said that there will be a sheep with a great horn who will stand tall against evil until the day of judgment.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe086.htm

The Book of Enoch
Chapter XC

6. But behold lambs were borne by those white sheep, and they began to open their eyes and to see, and to cry to the sheep.
7. Yea, they cried to them, but they did not hearken to what they said to them, but were exceedingly deaf, and their eyes were very exceedingly blinded.
8. And I saw in the vision how the ravens flew upon those lambs and took one of those lambs, and dashed the sheep in pieces and devoured them.
9. And I saw till horns grew upon those lambs, and the ravens cast down their horns; and I saw till there sprouted a great horn of one of those sheep, and their eyes were opened.
10. And it looked at them [and their eyes opened], and it cried to the sheep, and the rams saw it and all ran to it.
11. And notwithstanding all this those eagles and vultures and ravens and kites still kept tearing the sheep and swooping down upon them and devouring them: still the sheep remained silent, but the rams lamented and cried out.
12. And those ravens fought and battled with it and sought to lay low its horn, but they had no power over it.


at first, I could recognize this dream vision parable fable style, only from Adam up to prophet Musa and Isa, and still confused for the remaining story. But now I do believe that this last sheep standing is Rasul Ahmad. Rasul that I'm waiting for, who will fight injustice and mark the era of the end times.

I'm sure he doesn't come to give the best interpretation of the Al Quran, or to judge the issues that are often debated by fellow Quranists in here, but he will fight against injustice.

Honestly in my heart I wish I could meet him, support him, and join him.

Peace.

Peace Tilhawa,

Thank you for this thorough response  :)
This is an interesting perspective. I will definitely look into this.

Peace.
39:53  Say: "O My servants who transgressed against themselves, do not despair of the mercy of God. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, the Merciful."

jkhan

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2021, 03:51:10 AM »
Salaam LetTheTruthBeTold,
It could be among us today, but I haven't seen any. Same with you, only proclaimed messengers but not support each other.

But I believe that there will come a messenger named Ahmad as told by the Rasul Isa son of Maryam,

61:6   And when Isa, son of Maryam said: "O children of Israel, I am a messenger of God to you, affirming what is between my hands of the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be AHMAD.'" But when he showed them the clear proofs, they said: "This is clearly magic."

He will come at the end of time, because the vision of Isa son of Maryam is about things that will happen in the last days, as told in the following verse,

43:61   And he <Isa son of Maryam> was a knowledge for the Hour. So have no doubt about it. And follow Me; this is a straight path.

and a lot of story in the book of revelation. I also believe the book of Isaiah also support this.

Isaiah 42:1-4

Behold! My Servant, Ahmad (whom I uphold); My Elect One, in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry out, nor raise His voice, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench. In truth He shall bring forth justice. 4He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till He has established justice in the earth; and the islands shall wait for His law.


In Hebrew, whom I uphold is (Etmokh) אחמד means Ahmad. You can paste it in google translate. I believe they made changes to their book because of inter-religious hatred.

They may think like most people that the Ahmad referred to in verse 61:6 is the Prophet Muhammad, so leaving Ahmad in Isaiah is tantamount to "acknowledging the truth of the Prophet Muhammad".

Ahmad in the verse is not prophet Muhammad, because even though they both came after the prophet Isa, prophet Muhammad did not live in the last days, while the vision of Isa son of Maryam was covering the things that will happen at the end of time as told in 43:61

If you familiar with the Apocrypha books  you might be notice that in the Enoch's dream vision said that there will be a sheep with a great horn who will stand tall against evil until the day of judgment.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe086.htm

The Book of Enoch
Chapter XC

6. But behold lambs were borne by those white sheep, and they began to open their eyes and to see, and to cry to the sheep.
7. Yea, they cried to them, but they did not hearken to what they said to them, but were exceedingly deaf, and their eyes were very exceedingly blinded.
8. And I saw in the vision how the ravens flew upon those lambs and took one of those lambs, and dashed the sheep in pieces and devoured them.
9. And I saw till horns grew upon those lambs, and the ravens cast down their horns; and I saw till there sprouted a great horn of one of those sheep, and their eyes were opened.
10. And it looked at them [and their eyes opened], and it cried to the sheep, and the rams saw it and all ran to it.
11. And notwithstanding all this those eagles and vultures and ravens and kites still kept tearing the sheep and swooping down upon them and devouring them: still the sheep remained silent, but the rams lamented and cried out.
12. And those ravens fought and battled with it and sought to lay low its horn, but they had no power over it.


at first, I could recognize this dream vision parable fable style, only from Adam up to prophet Musa and Isa, and still confused for the remaining story. But now I do believe that this last sheep standing is Rasul Ahmad. Rasul that I'm waiting for, who will fight injustice and mark the era of the end times.

I'm sure he doesn't come to give the best interpretation of the Al Quran, or to judge the issues that are often debated by fellow Quranists in here, but he will fight against injustice.

Honestly in my heart I wish I could meet him, support him, and join him.

Peace.

Peace...

I absolutely don't agree with your explanation of the two crucial verses.. 43:61 and 61:06...

Isa is not the sign/knowledge of the hour... That's your imagination... Read the verse with its merit and grammar and ponder...

Further messenger to come after Isa has already come for children of Israel.. Who was he is not important but he came and they rejected him....

If you don't agree let me explain further..

jkhan

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2021, 04:47:12 AM »
Knowledge of the hour in the verse is Angels who will be on the Earth in succession/ remaining...

And regarding that (Hour) don't have any doubt..

It is not Isa at all... Angels will definitely come down to earth on huge number... That's for me perfectly alright to take according to verses...

Messenger to come after Isa needless to come at the time of the Hour..

Look at the verse carefully... Isa was communicating with his people (children of Israel) ... He was proving the Torah with what he was revealed (Injeel) ...  And at the same time he gave a glad tidings to the children of Israel that there is gonna be a messenger after him for them.. That's in fact a glad tiding.. How can it be a glad tidings to children of Israel if that messenger comes at the time of the hour.. What glad tidings that is for children of Israel or even for anyone.. Messengers always brings glad tidings and warning... No way near it matches to the basic... There is no need of a messenger on the verge of Hour as knowledge of the hour..

Further read the verse... But when he(the foretold messenger)  came TO THEM they said it is clear magic even after he brought the CLEAR PROOF...

it is not something people would say at the time of HOUR seeing a clear proof and call magic.. It is too late to call something like that...

Just ponder... If you still insist.. It is up to you to insist...

Further.. @ LTTBT..

every prophet was incontrovertiblly a messenger too... Every messenger usually brings / brought glad tidings and warning with new revelation or even with existing revelations..

People recognised the Prophetic messenger coz they were above normal people on status even while they were living and even after life.. Their status is something one need to work hard to achieve in janna.. To be with them..
But Messengers merely who brings the verses of existing revelations and warning with it could be anyone or any believer whome God knows... It is not must we recognize them.. Needless... May be they themselves not know they are Messengers... But they do the same job what well known Messengers were doing. .. Passing the message in its true meaning.  .. Who passes it with the meaning God knows... So you will never know the Messengers of current day and future.. They may change our lives and they may clarify the verses to us without our knowledge thus they have passed the message and we have received the message and we possibly get guided with it.. .
So that we cannot deny we were not warned... And we cannot say we were not given glad tidings..
Yes.. Quran is in tact.. In it all the message you want... But if a messenger clarifies that is worthy... Think this way.. Why god needed a prophet messenger instead God could have sent the complete book in writing and let people read it... It was not God's preference.. But He chose a human messenger.. In the same way  He is choosing still human Messengers to deal with His task of spreading the message... God prefers.. Message not only passed in writing but verbally as well.. Note Jins received the message of Quran verbally while Muhamed was reading..

What ever the way which guides us is our guidance.. If some people's  influence made us guide us to straight path then they could be Messengers... How many things we would have learned or unearthed by others researches etc.. Which we didn't trace by merely reading Quran.. So Messengers are mandatory in God's preference...

That's my understanding and belief of Messengers after standard prophetic Messengers...

tlihawa

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2021, 04:53:29 AM »
Peace...

I absolutely don't agree with your explanation of the two crucial verses.. 43:61 and 61:06...

Isa is not the sign/knowledge of the hour... That's your imagination... Read the verse with its merit and grammar and ponder...

Further messenger to come after Isa has already come for children of Israel.. Who was he is not important but he came and they rejected him....

If you don't agree let me explain further..

Salam Jkhan,
You are free to have your own opinion. I'm not here to argue with anyone. Just wanted to share my opinion. I can only learn in silence. So please just share your views, maybe I can learn from it.

Peace

jkhan

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Re: Messengers amoung us?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2021, 07:20:56 AM »
Salam Jkhan,
You are free to have your own opinion.

Peace

Peace bro

Needless to state.. Isn't it.. I am free like you are free.. So simple.. No grudges..

Quote

 I'm not here to argue with anyone. Just wanted to share my opinion. I can only learn in silence. So please just share your views, maybe I can learn from it.


I have clearly furnished my understanding...  I hope it is not argument...  Clearly I have declined your opinion regarding the two above quoted verses... So brother give your opinion and we give opinion and others give opiniom.. Well at the end of the day... We have so many opinions so we can learn of course... This opening a vista to near truth... Always welcome your opinions... Coz I am here to learn and cultivate my mind I feel that's necessary for solid guidance...

Note: arguing is not a bad habit either... Prophets and Messengers and believers argued... I argue when it is necessary... All other times I submit my understanding hoping to get a better explanation... OK brother.. That's all...  :handshake: