Author Topic: Lost  (Read 1197 times)

Layth

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Re: Lost
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2021, 11:56:15 PM »
Dear sister,

God is not responsible for suffering or destruction - we are.

He only looks after the people who submit to Him alone, like Mary who received provisions when no one was around or Abraham who was protected when his people sought to destroy him.

Your faith was misplaced - now you have a chance to serve the only One that matters (the One God).

You would not have posted your thoughts had you lost faith entirely. Welcome to the path which is not easily found :)
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

good logic

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Re: Lost
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2021, 01:15:23 AM »
The reality  is with each person themselves.
 The inner most thoughts and sincerity/honesty  of  motives and aims of others are not known to us.
Either we really want to know GOD and the message, we pretend to or we do not want to. These are the only choices we can have.

Each person has a built in instinct to judge for themselves their relationships and loyalties in their life.

If they believe in GOD and they want a relationship with GOD ,then their true conviction must be tested  by GOD. GOD will only reciprocate the relationship according to the test of the individual.
As far as we know, each one of us who claims to be  in a relationship with GOD can either be:

1-Saying and claiming that they are sincere while really they are only saying what they do not do. Ego and arrogance  are the enemy of GOD. i.e could be lying.
2-Wants to  and buys into the relationship with their whole heart.. Tries their best to serve GOD  and embraces total submission by trusting GOD to guide them. i.e truthful.

The rest will be a journey and a battle of the two options above.
Or one leaves GOD altogether out of their life and lives their own life independently from GOD and the message.

The journey , the battle and the choice has to be the individual s decision. Everyone is entitled to their freedom of choice.
Best of luck to each one of us.
Best of luck sister.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Lost
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2021, 01:33:51 AM »
PERF558 is only a coincidence, it doesn't work with other papyrii of the 7th CE.

peace,
you wrote "During the 7th CE, one finds no historical Arabic artifact of the so-called "hijri" calendar."

now you contradict admit that there are documents?

not coincidence earliest Perf558 643 CE (mid 7th) ramadan was exactly after summer solstice.

likewise you wrote "Only at the end of the 7th CE, we start to see artifacts mentioning excerpts of Qur'an"

false evident by old manuscripts; not about hijri calendar rather why post misleading info especially in this thread?

Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France: Arabe 328 (c)
radiocarbon measurement of the Birmingham fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a)
originally from the same codex: 568-645 CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/23/vers/1/handschrift/158




Anoushirvan

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Re: Lost
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2021, 01:56:08 AM »
peace,
you wrote "During the 7th CE, one finds no historical Arabic artifact of the so-called "hijri" calendar."

now you contradict admit that there are documents?

Peace,

There is no contradiction in my statements, you only misread them. Purposely or inadvertently, that's up to you.

not coincidence earliest Perf558 643 CE (mid 7th) ramadan was exactly after summer solstice.

Please check the other documents that I presented to you (the Nessana papers) and not only this one PERF558.
You cannot make a theory by simply disregarding documents that don't go your way.

And as the hijri calendar was made from the original Arabic calendar, then surely some dates can coincide, it's not a surprise.

likewise you wrote "Only at the end of the 7th CE, we start to see artifacts mentioning excerpts of Qur'an"

false evident by old manuscripts; not about hijri calendar rather why post misleading info especially in this thread?

Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France: Arabe 328 (c)
radiocarbon measurement of the Birmingham fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a)
originally from the same codex: 568-645 CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/23/vers/1/handschrift/158


Please read again what I wrote above and more carefully this time.
You take my statements out of context and claim contradictions, this is not a fair way to discuss.


dustandashes

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Re: Lost
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2021, 11:05:48 AM »
Thank you everyone for your input. Please dont start any arguments in the comment. It makes me more anxious. While I appreciate every response, please dont share anything that will make me question my faith more. If I wanted to have a debate about Quran i would have gone to any atheist site. I can't believe I am having an existential crisis at the age of 20. I didn't imagine my life like this. I never imagine I would become one of those people who would struggle with their faith. Each day passes I feel like I am getting closer to the day I would have no faith left. This has taken such a toll on my life. I have started having nightmares about it. In my dream I see myself becoming faithless and not being sad about it. I see myself feeling freed. But it fills me with dread. I dont want to be faithless and happy. I dont want to not care about my faith. I dont want to be not bothered about having no faith. I cannot read Quran now. Do you have any book recommendation that covers about the spiritual stuff and connection with God? I know sufis are very into that, any sufi book recommendation. I am not worried about religion. I am worried about my faith in God. I dont care if you recommend any book by non muslims. I just want to be trust God back. Thank you

Wakas

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Re: Lost
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2021, 11:27:19 AM »
Quote
If I wanted to have a debate about Quran i would have gone to any atheist site.

And what would atheists know about The Quran?

I recommend using the search function of the forum if you wish to address various issues you have with God/Quran/etc.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Lost
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2021, 11:45:26 AM »
Please read again what I wrote above and more carefully this time.
You take my statements out of context and claim contradictions, this is not a fair way to discuss.

peace,

Anoushirvan wrote...
"During the 7th CE, one finds no historical Arabic artifact of the so-called "hijri" calendar. Instead, one finds artifacts (papyri, coins, etc.) with the mention of the "Era of the Arabs". The "Hijra" is never mentioned."

Only at the end of the 7th CE, we start to see artifacts mentioning excerpts of Qur'an (e.g. Dome of the Rock)."


did you not write/spread the above? is not the 7th century 601 to 700 CE?

Perf558 643 CE



Birmingham, Cadbury Research Library (University of Birmingham): Islamic Arabic 1572
568-645, CE (95.4%) [¹⁴C dating by Cadbury Research Library]
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/6/vers/97/handschrift/281/flip/1



Do you have any book recommendation that covers about the spiritual stuff and connection with God?

Thomas Jefferson (who learned Arabic) was interesting.
https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-s-three-greatest-achievements/religious-freedom/

peace!

good logic

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Re: Lost
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2021, 12:23:45 AM »
Sister, you say ,quote:

"I didn't imagine my life like this. I never imagine I would become one of those people who would struggle with their faith. Each day passes I feel like I am getting closer to the day I would have no faith left. This has taken such a toll on my life. I have started having nightmares about it. In my dream I see myself becoming faithless and not being sad about it. I see myself feeling freed. But it fills me with dread. I dont want to be faithless and happy. I dont want to not care about my faith. I dont want to be not bothered about having no faith. I cannot read Quran now. Do you have any book recommendation that covers about the spiritual stuff and connection with God? I know sufis are very into that, any sufi book recommendation. I am not worried about religion. I am worried about my faith in God. I dont care if you recommend any book by non muslims. I just want to be trust God back. Thank you "

I have the following questions for you,if you wish to clarify:
1- Do you doubt GOD s existence?  Are you looking for reassurance/evidence that GOD exist?
2- Are you worried in case there might be evidence that GOD does not exist ? Or are you apprehensive in case you loose trust in GOD? Or Qoran is not a message from GOD?
3- Are you loosing faith because you do not want to research what you doubt and issues with your faith? 
 4-Do you want to go on an honest search  to check the information you hold about your faith and investigate its truthfulness?
5-If you see yourself being freed from your faith, do you believe you will be really free and happy?
6- If faithless means being "happy",like you say above, then surely it is a good thing for you? Or don t you want to be happy?

If you really mean you are worried about your faith in GOD to the extent that it is taking your freedom and happiness  then  what is the issue here?
Just  forget about GOD and scriptures , Is freedom and happiness   not your aim in life?

Or maybe there are books out there that will prove to you what you want to clarify about your faith?
Hope you solve your problem sister.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

Anoushirvan

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Re: Lost
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2021, 12:09:18 PM »
peace,

Anoushirvan wrote...
"During the 7th CE, one finds no historical Arabic artifact of the so-called "hijri" calendar. Instead, one finds artifacts (papyri, coins, etc.) with the mention of the "Era of the Arabs". The "Hijra" is never mentioned."

Only at the end of the 7th CE, we start to see artifacts mentioning excerpts of Qur'an (e.g. Dome of the Rock)."


did you not write/spread the above? is not the 7th century 601 to 700 CE?


Peace,

Perf558 does not mention "year 22 of hijra", but "year 22" only.
Other dated documents also never mention year of hijra.

You implicitly assimilate this 7th CE Arabic calendar to the Islamic Hijri calendar, but you have no direct proof this 7th CE Arabic calendar was the Hijri calendar as we know it today, i.e. starting from July 622 and with lunar years.

You hold onto Perf558 since three messages now, disregarding other documents, certainly because Perf558 is the only document where one date in one system (hypothetical Hijri calendar reconstructed) coincides with a date in other system (Coptic calendar).

But other double-dated documents do not coincide so easily. You selectively disregard other double-dated documents that don't go your way.

As I said above, since Hijri calendar was built from the original Arabic calendar, it is likely that you can find some coincidences sometimes.

Another possibility that could be envisaged to explain the coincidence is that the first narratives of the Hijra were elaborated around year 642 / 643 CE (death of Umar, beginning of the reign of Uthman), so the authors of that time took the current date and made a "Hijri" calendar computed backward to July 622 CE.
This would give rise one century later to the Islamic legend that Umar started to stamp documents from July 622 / Hijra.


What I meant by "Only at the end of the 7th CE, we start to see artifacts mentioning excerpts of Qur'an" in the context of my explanation is that only at the end of the 7th CE we start to see testimonies of Qur'an preaching outside Qur'an itself.

But I also tied the emergence of an Arab kingdom in 620/621 to the Qur'an preaching in reaction to it, so of course you can find Qur'an manuscripts dating back of the first half of the 7th CE.

In fact, if we couldn't find such manuscripts, it would completely invalidate my thesis.

In the middle of the 7th CE and before, there is no proof that Qur'an was so popular among Arabs, a manuscript is not sufficient for this purpose as it gives little clue how wide the audience could be.

But for the end of the 7th CE, we can find such proofs (Dome of the Rock, coins, papyrii, ...).


All things considered, the big difference between my thesis and the one usually / often advocated by Qur'an-alone people is that I say that Qur'an was not the book of doctrine of the early Arabic ruling power (Umar, and beyond up to Abd al-Malik), whereas the implicit thesis of most Qur'an-alone people is that Qur'an was the book of doctrine of the early Arabic ruling power founding an initial pure religion (Islam) that was later corrupted with hadiths, in general under the Abbasid era.

But there is no convincing proof there was a pure religion based on Qur'an-alone that was widespread among Arabs (and beyond Arabs) that was later corrupted with hadiths. On the contrary, it seems that non-negligible amount of hadiths could have a basis as early as Qur'an itself.



Iyyaka

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Re: Lost
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2021, 01:20:20 PM »
You implicitly assimilate this 7th CE Arabic calendar to the Islamic Hijri calendar, but you have no direct proof this 7th CE Arabic calendar was the Hijri calendar as we know it today, i.e. starting from July 622 and with lunar years.
Peace Anoushirvan,

I react to the text in bold above (in addition to what Noon waalqalami said).
There are concrete proof : Kufic Arabic graffiti from the first centuries of Islam, in Arabia as well as in the Near East, represent an inexhaustible source of information on early Muslim society.

With regard to the oldest monuments of Arabic writing of the Islamic period (graffito) , there are:

1)
The graffito of al-Muthallath near Yanbuʿ in Arabia, dated 23/643, (ref. Kawatoko, 2005: 51): "kataba Salma thalath wa ʿishrîn" (Salma wrote in 23). This anonymous character engraved his text to mark his passage through this place and to remind us that he was the author of the engraving. To this end, he introduces the dating directly without using the traditionally used word sana (year). The beginning of the Hegira compass was set up between 16/637 and 18/639, during the caliphate of ʿUmar (ref. de Prémare, 2002: 272), which implies that the protagonist had knowledge of the calendar adjustment.

2)
The form of the second oldest graffito, found east of al-ʿUlâ (Arabia) and dated 24/644-45 (ref. Ghabbân, 2003: 337) falls into the same logic: "anâ Zuhayr katabtu zaman tuwuffiya ʿUmar sanat arbaʿ wa ʿishrîn" (It is me, Zuhayr! I wrote at the time of ʿUmar's death, in the year 24). The act of writing is again emphasized, but this time after the character has briefly introduced himself. The basmala reduced to a simple bismi Llâh is above the line in total offset from the beginning of the form; it is old but seems to have been added. Epigraphic texts beginning with the isolated personal pronoun anâ attached to the name of the lapicide are very numerous but they are never preceded by the basmala formula. The 24 h. text is thus a writing with a personal and historical dimension since Zubayr doubly dates his inscription by the mention of "the time of ʿUmar" and by the dating in years. It should also be noted that the name of ʿUmar [b. al-Khaṭṭâb] is cited in its most restricted form which in ancient epigraphy is rare.

NB : sorry to dustandashes to be off topic by this answer.

God bless you all