Author Topic: Companion of the elephant  (Read 1251 times)

jkhan

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Re: Companion of the elephant
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2021, 09:38:30 PM »
salam

there was an elephant that lived in parts of the middle east

please google “syrian elephant”

example of ancient elephants in middle east is in the city of qatna (in modern day syria), where apparently fossils of elephants were found in the royal palace ruins

peace

Peace.. Tf

Historical tangible and manifest evidences shows that Syria OR Iraq had elephants... But no evidence whether any of northern Arabian nations had elephants at the time of Mohamed if he lived 1400 years back.. Even Persians used Syrian and probably maha barath elephants for waging wars... Why not, even manifest records shows Romans used elephants though we don't see elephants native to Europe..

But never in history or current day exploration of embedded fossils show that Arabian peninsula had elephants at the time of Isa OR musa OR before..

Sometimes some histories are well preserved within their social identity... I believe the story of elephant also well known to Muhamed and his people as preserved truth among people. . But it may have happened somewhere else or long time back...
If historical evidences are glaring that no Elephants were found in Arabian peninsula OR northern Arabia 1400 years back then it is a question mark to claim elephants did live there.. or that unfortunate incident actually happened there..

Further... Iyyaka brought certain history claiming Abraha at the time of Mohamed brought these elephants.. That's a recorded history for him.. At the same time.. Recorded history says before 100 BC elephants of Syria and Iraq were extinct... And Arabian peninsula never had any elephants..
So when did the incident of chapter 105 happen? But it did definitely happen and well familiar to the audience of Quran if not by eyewitness at least by their ancestors well recorded history... But it could be 500 to 1000 years back at the time of Mohamed..

It could be even Romans... But all speculation...
Guesswork is not equal to actual truth.. That's what Quran claims. .so why to speculate... Will it  ever become truth irrefutable? Each and everyone would have different opinions...

Iyyaka

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Re: Companion of the elephant
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2021, 12:27:32 AM »
Further... Iyyaka brought certain history claiming Abraha at the time of Mohamed brought these elephants.. That's a recorded history for him.. At the same time.. Recorded history says before 100 BC elephants of Syria and Iraq were extinct... And Arabian peninsula never had any elephants..
So when did the incident of chapter 105 happen? But it did definitely happen and well familiar to the audience of Quran if not by eyewitness at least by their ancestors well recorded history... But it could be 500 to 1000 years back at the time of Mohamed..
Peace Jhkan,

You are right: elephants had disappeared from the Arabian Peninsula and were therefore not used as in the Persian army for the fight.
But at the time of Abraha (and imported from Yemen) the elephant had to make an impression on the inhabitants of central Arabia and it was first and above all a sign of prestige of the king (of Yemeni origin it should be remembered), and probably not very numerous (the engravings at about 150 kilometers north of Najran show moreover only one elephant and not a lot of elephants => imagine seeing that for the first time !). Hence the name "the people (eg. the army) of the elephant" in sura 105.

So, it is necessary to take into account the historical context before the birth of Muhammad, and to link suras 105&106 ("hādhā l-bayti" in sura 106 = this (close) House - temple).

History:

1) Read or reread the history of the kingdom of Himyar and king Abraha (with archaeological evidence of its existence) of Ethiopian origin (relationship between Ethiopia (kingdom of Aksoum) and Yemen)

2) the end of the Himyarite kingdom (around 570) and the failure of Abraha's religious mission towards the Kaaba (major impact in the minds of the time) allowed Mecca to consolidate its prestige and opened up the secure routes for travel to Syria and Yemen, at least on the western coast => this is what Suras 105 and 106 briefly tell us.

3) According to historians, Abraha started building the church of Sana'a in 558 (CIH 325). The Elephant Expedition would therefore be after the construction of the Sana'a church, probably between 560 and 565, dates very close to the birth of the Prophet Muhammad. In about 558, Abraha built, with the help of Byzantine craftsmen, the superb church of Sana'a - called qalis - whose grandeur and wealth are described by al-Azraqī (d. 837 CE).  Only a few stones remain of this building, including two capitals decorated with crosses, which were reused in the Great Mosque of Sana'a.

God bless you

jkhan

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Re: Companion of the elephant
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2021, 12:44:16 AM »
Peace Jhkan,

You are right: elephants had disappeared from the Arabian Peninsula and were therefore not used as in the Persian army for the fight.
But at the time of Abraha (and imported from Yemen) the elephant had to make an impression on the inhabitants of central Arabia and it was first and above all a sign of prestige of the king (of Yemeni origin it should be remembered), and probably not very numerous (the engravings at about 150 kilometers north of Najran show moreover only one elephant and not a lot of elephants => imagine seeing that for the first time !). Hence the name "the people (eg. the army) of the elephant" in sura 105.

So, it is necessary to take into account the historical context before the birth of Muhammad, and to link suras 105&106 ("hādhā l-bayti" in sura 106 = this (close) House - temple).

History:

1) Read or reread the history of the kingdom of Himyar and king Abraha (with archaeological evidence of its existence) of Ethiopian origin (relationship between Ethiopia (kingdom of Aksoum) and Yemen)

2) the end of the Himyarite kingdom (around 570) and the failure of Abraha's religious mission towards the Kaaba (major impact in the minds of the time) allowed Mecca to consolidate its prestige and opened up the secure routes for travel to Syria and Yemen, at least on the western coast => this is what Suras 105 and 106 briefly tell us.

3) According to historians, Abraha started building the church of Sana'a in 558 (CIH 325). The Elephant Expedition would therefore be after the construction of the Sana'a church, probably between 560 and 565, dates very close to the birth of the Prophet Muhammad. In about 558, Abraha built, with the help of Byzantine craftsmen, the superb church of Sana'a - called qalis - whose grandeur and wealth are described by al-Azraqī (d. 837 CE).  Only a few stones remain of this building, including two capitals decorated with crosses, which were reused in the Great Mosque of Sana'a.

God bless you

Peace...
What you are saying or rather historical evidences that you present may be true or may be false... Let it be whatever...

What could be the lesson we can learn from this chapter...
I was wondering...  Flock of birds... With baked clay stones.. Are they really birds in general... Or are they from out of this world... From where did they take the baked stones?  Why the stones didn't affect the birds legs... At the same time that burned the mighty soldiers...

What kind of birds they were.. In what size to hold stones that can take the life of huge powerful army.  . Isn't there anything mentioned about that in that history brother... Or does it mention something else.. How they lost according to history.. Was it coz of birds?

Iyyaka

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Re: Companion of the elephant
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2021, 10:20:25 AM »
Peace...
What you are saying or rather historical evidences that you present may be true or may be false... Let it be whatever...
has i
What could be the lesson we can learn from this chapter...
I was wondering...  Flock of birds... With baked clay stones.. Are they really birds in general... Or are they from out of this world... From where did they take the baked stones?  Why the stones didn't affect the birds legs... At the same time that burned the mighty soldiers...

What kind of birds they were.. In what size to hold stones that can take the life of huge powerful army.  . Isn't there anything mentioned about that in that history brother... Or does it mention something else.. How they lost according to history.. Was it coz of birds?
Peace Jkhan,

Abraha's army was mysteriously routed (the pest of Justinian?), and Mecca was preserved.
As there would have been an Elephant in their army, the attackers were called and known as the "people of the Elephant".
Legend gets involved that birds threw clay stones at the army to destroy it or put it to flight.
- Verse 3 of Surah 105 states the cause of the main action: God sending the birds.
- Verse 4 of Surah 105 states the action itself: the throwing of stones by the birds
- Verse 5 of Surah 105 states the effect of the action: the rout of the People of the Elephant.
The cause and the effect of the action are attributed to God, only the execution is entrusted to his creature.

The lesson ?
1) It is introduced by the "Li" in the first word of Surah 106. The essential theme of the two suras, namely the protection that the "Lord" provides for the Meccans, by removing from them the "fear" (106:4) of external dangers, symbolized by the "People of the Elephant", and by guaranteeing by the same token the safety of the caravans and thus the food and well-being of the Quraysh. In response to this double protection, the Quraysh are invited to worship/serve the "Lord/Master of this Temple/Sanctuary". It is He whom the Qur'an and the Prophet call to worship in the Ka'ba, rather than the idols that were there. For He alone is the source of all the blessings enjoyed by the Meccans. The sanctuary of the Ka'ab is therefore considered legitimate, but on the condition that one worships "one's Lord" there.

2) Moreover, the miraculous preservation of Mecca would have revealed the identity of the "Lord/Master of the Temple/House" (106:3): It is the "Lord/Master" who is The Master of history, not the idols. It is He who governs events, and it is He who protected Mecca from its enemies. So it is a powerful and benevolent God who has made himself known. Not an abstract deity, but an entity that Muhammad experiences as "his Lord" and who intervenes in human history.
We can conclude that, if this sura evokes a story belonging to the historical and popular memory of the pagan Meccans, it decrypt in it a relationship of God to the world (close to the biblical heritage through biblical prophetism - cf. exodus 15,7 and Isaiah 5,24)

God bless you.

tutti_frutti

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Re: Companion of the elephant
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2021, 10:40:48 AM »
peace jkhan

i believe surah 105 could perhaps be about the people of lut and not about abraha (althou could be abraha, im just speculating form my understanding that it is about people of lut)

also, scientists claim syrian elephants existed until bronze age so perhaps the elephants in question were the syrian elephant

and i also dont think muhammd lived in the desert or in a nomad/tribal way, but rather in a developed city on a coastline (The God mentions about ships, and mentions rivers/streams and i think it was about where muhammed lived as i think they had ships)

i understand and believe muhammed was to warn the mother of cities and the nomads around it (and generally the worlds) ..i dont believe he was a nomad himself living a nomad or tribal way of life

peace

jkhan

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Re: Companion of the elephant
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2021, 05:40:19 PM »
Peace Jkhan,

Abraha's army was mysteriously routed (the pest of Justinian?), and Mecca was preserved.
As there would have been an Elephant in their army, the attackers were called and known as the "people of the Elephant".
Legend gets involved that birds threw clay stones at the army to destroy it or put it to flight.
- Verse 3 of Surah 105 states the cause of the main action: God sending the birds.
- Verse 4 of Surah 105 states the action itself: the throwing of stones by the birds
- Verse 5 of Surah 105 states the effect of the action: the rout of the People of the Elephant.
The cause and the effect of the action are attributed to God, only the execution is entrusted to his creature.

The lesson ?
1) It is introduced by the "Li" in the first word of Surah 106. The essential theme of the two suras, namely the protection that the "Lord" provides for the Meccans, by removing from them the "fear" (106:4) of external dangers, symbolized by the "People of the Elephant", and by guaranteeing by the same token the safety of the caravans and thus the food and well-being of the Quraysh. In response to this double protection, the Quraysh are invited to worship/serve the "Lord/Master of this Temple/Sanctuary". It is He whom the Qur'an and the Prophet call to worship in the Ka'ba, rather than the idols that were there. For He alone is the source of all the blessings enjoyed by the Meccans. The sanctuary of the Ka'ab is therefore considered legitimate, but on the condition that one worships "one's Lord" there.

2) Moreover, the miraculous preservation of Mecca would have revealed the identity of the "Lord/Master of the Temple/House" (106:3): It is the "Lord/Master" who is The Master of history, not the idols. It is He who governs events, and it is He who protected Mecca from its enemies. So it is a powerful and benevolent God who has made himself known. Not an abstract deity, but an entity that Muhammad experiences as "his Lord" and who intervenes in human history.
We can conclude that, if this sura evokes a story belonging to the historical and popular memory of the pagan Meccans, it decrypt in it a relationship of God to the world (close to the biblical heritage through biblical prophetism - cf. exodus 15,7 and Isaiah 5,24)

God bless you.

Peace...
So hadith which good logic brought and the history you brought is almost identical... So hadith and history explains better than Quran...  And author of Quran just passing with three lines.. Very interesting....

But among few of us in this discussion,  do you observe that you have one view of this incident, Tilihawa has another view,  Tuti fruiti thinks Lut,  and in fact I don't know what good logic thinks.. For Centi 50 no conclusion ... For me no evidence...

So everyone cannot be true on one incident...  Quran revealed little and for us after ages it is not sufficient to conclude basing historical evidence which are not founded and giving concrete evidences but only written stories... To prove that we need tangible evidence like those mountains carved houses... These are sheer proofs...

So.. Brothers your historical writings not impressed me to be linked to chapter 105....
For me it's just mystry...

jkhan

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Re: Companion of the elephant
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2021, 05:47:25 PM »
peace jkhan

i believe surah 105 could perhaps be about the people of lut and not about abraha (althou could be abraha, im just speculating form my understanding that it is about people of lut)

also, scientists claim syrian elephants existed until bronze age so perhaps the elephants in question were the syrian elephant

and i also dont think muhammd lived in the desert or in a nomad/tribal way, but rather in a developed city on a coastline (The God mentions about ships, and mentions rivers/streams and i think it was about where muhammed lived as i think they had ships)

i understand and believe muhammed was to warn the mother of cities and the nomads around it (and generally the worlds) ..i dont believe he was a nomad himself living a nomad or tribal way of life

peace

Peace TF..

Interesting your view... I am not talking about elephants..

Why do you think Muhamed lived in a coastline?  You must be having some Quranic support for that.. May I know which verse...  I don't think the verse which allows fishing during haj  ... What about ships and rivers... I never come across connecting Muhamed.. Or did I miss...
Pls explain.. It could be useful

Iyyaka

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Re: Companion of the elephant
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2021, 01:19:05 AM »
i believe surah 105 could perhaps be about the people of lut and not about abraha (althou could be abraha, im just speculating form my understanding that it is about people of lut)
Peace tutti_frutti,

I may understand that the word "sijjīlin" used in Surah 105 may suggest that it refers to the people of Lot because this word also appears in the story of Lot in (11:82) in particular.
However, Surah 105 refers to Muhammad and the history of his people.
This is clearly apparent when we analyze the structure of the text.
Indeed, Surahs 105-112 are part of a section that could be entitled "A Brief Biography of the Prophet Muhammad."

Several of Surahs 105-112 pose difficult questions of vocabulary and grammar. However, these difficulties can be resolved, at least partially, if we give up considering these suras as isolated units that would be sufficient in themselves. The rhetorical analysis clearly shows that this series of suras forms a coherent whole in which the suras are closely interconnected. They constitute a small subsection (of S. 93-112), in which the suras (or "passage") form four pairs or subsequences (105+106; 107+108; 109+110; 111+112). These subsequences are also grouped into pairs, forming two sequences (105-1108; 109-112) of the subsection S. 105-112.

Thus the 4 pairs are built on the same alternation between a first sura that begins with the evocation of ungodly people: "People of the Elephant" (105,1); "He who calls religion a lie" (107,1); "disbelievers" (109,1); "Abu Lahab" (111,1), and a second sura that calls for prayer: "let them worship/ render worship" (106,3); "pray" (108,2); "Glorify through praise" (110,3): "Say" (112,1). In three of the four suras this call to prayer is in the center of the sura, and includes the name of "Rabb/Seigner-Master". In the fourth Sura (112), the prayer (a creed) occupies the whole Sura.

Such an arrangement of the suras is obviously not by chance. It characterizes these 8 suras, contrary to the suras that precede and follow: they are not part of the same whole. The great rhetorical coherence of the section S. 105-112 undoubtedly indicates a semantic unity of this set. In fact, it appears that this section develops as an outline of Muhammad's prophetic career, at the conclusion of the Book (S. 2-112).

God bless you.

jkhan

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Re: Companion of the elephant
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2021, 04:12:24 AM »
Peace tutti_frutti,

I may understand that the word "sijjīlin" used in Surah 105 may suggest that it refers to the people of Lot because this word also appears in the story of Lot in (11:82) in particular.
However, Surah 105 refers to Muhammad and the history of his people.
This is clearly apparent when we analyze the structure of the text.
Indeed, Surahs 105-112 are part of a section that could be entitled "A Brief Biography of the Prophet Muhammad."

Several of Surahs 105-112 pose difficult questions of vocabulary and grammar. However, these difficulties can be resolved, at least partially, if we give up considering these suras as isolated units that would be sufficient in themselves. The rhetorical analysis clearly shows that this series of suras forms a coherent whole in which the suras are closely interconnected. They constitute a small subsection (of S. 93-112), in which the suras (or "passage") form four pairs or subsequences (105+106; 107+108; 109+110; 111+112). These subsequences are also grouped into pairs, forming two sequences (105-1108; 109-112) of the subsection S. 105-112.

Thus the 4 pairs are built on the same alternation between a first sura that begins with the evocation of ungodly people: "People of the Elephant" (105,1); "He who calls religion a lie" (107,1); "disbelievers" (109,1); "Abu Lahab" (111,1), and a second sura that calls for prayer: "let them worship/ render worship" (106,3); "pray" (108,2); "Glorify through praise" (110,3): "Say" (112,1). In three of the four suras this call to prayer is in the center of the sura, and includes the name of "Rabb/Seigner-Master". In the fourth Sura (112), the prayer (a creed) occupies the whole Sura.

Such an arrangement of the suras is obviously not by chance. It characterizes these 8 suras, contrary to the suras that precede and follow: they are not part of the same whole. The great rhetorical coherence of the section S. 105-112 undoubtedly indicates a semantic unity of this set. In fact, it appears that this section develops as an outline of Muhammad's prophetic career, at the conclusion of the Book (S. 2-112).

God bless you.

Peace Iyyaka..

What if Tutifruiti's assumption is correct...
If the phrase (hijarath min sijjeel) used in chapter 105 and 11:82 is identical, why not ponder more on that rather mere historical writings and they are not concrete evidences to date...
If you conclude that it's relevant to people of Mohamed, then what in case people of Mohamed lived where Luth lived.  I hope there is evidence for that within Quran... Isn't there? So people of muhamed would know their own place history..
In addition to that extinct of elephant is date back to Ibrahim probably so that also suit to Luth people destruction...
Strangely no opposition... But birds destroying with baked stones... Were Luth and family were opposition while they escaped from that community..  Big No... They were escaping similar to musa and crew.... But can we expect people of Luth not aware the plan of Luth.. So.. They would have known and made a plan to chase them. . So the unfortunate incident could have happened on the way...  But Luth incident it says rained stones... Probably when birds pelt stones from identical height of raining that might have looked raining of stones...
Tuti... If I'm to ever come close to accept, I would only lean to your suggestion that chapter 105 probably Luth...

Didn't Muhamed live where Luts people destruction took place? 37:136-138
Where in fact Lut lived?  Is dead sea an evidence through Quran... Luths lake is not in Quran..  But what about Midyan?  Didn't Luth and people live very close-by to Midyan as per verse 11:89 .. Is it distance or by time? If Luth lived close by to Midyan then Ibrahim not far...

Are these evidences found in Yemen?  Is Luth place in Yemen... Is Midyan in Yemen? Is strange low place dead sea in Yemen?

Whatever...  Let's see...

Iyyaka

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Re: Companion of the elephant
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2021, 05:06:08 AM »
Peace Iyyaka..
What if Tutifruiti's assumption is correct...
If the phrase (hijarath min sijjeel) used in chapter 105 and 11:82 is identical, why not ponder more on that rather mere historical writings and they are not concrete evidences to date...
If you conclude that it's relevant to people of Mohamed, then what in case people of Mohamed lived where Luth lived.  I hope there is evidence for that within Quran... Isn't there? So people of muhamed would know their own place history..
Peace Jkhan,

I am responding to you (bolded part above) that the historical AND textual context is not the same.
You obviously haven't thought/meditated enough about my last answer, especially about taking the structure of the text in context as an evidence.
I therefore recall the conclusion: surahs 105-112 are part of a section that could be entitled "A Brief Biography of the Prophet Muhammad."

And if only one argument were enough, when we know the episode of Abraha, Mecca cannot be on the side of Lot's people.
Now, i think I gave enough conclusive evidence in that post (at least some quality information to ponder).

So, I will finish by saying a few concluding words about the structure of the sequence S. 105-112 (for those who are interested) :
This sequence shows that the religion preached by Muhammad is not that of the pagans; it is "the religion of God" (110:2), purely monotheistic in nature.

The first sub-sequence (Surahs 105-109) places Muhammad in the early stages of his discovery of the new religiosity inspired by his Lord and his first preaching, which quickly met with rejection by the Quraysh notables.

The second subsequence (suras 110 to 112) begins with a clear declaration of the rupture between the two religions (S. 109), followed by the prophetic announcement of the conversion of a great number of people "to the religion of God" and the definitive perdition of the polytheists. It ends with the creed of the "religion of God", which is also the climax of the whole Book.

From a rhetorical point of view, this section of the Book (S. 105-112) is a good example of how the Qur'an realizes the two fundamental characteristics of Semitic rhetoric. On the one hand, parataxis: the suras do not form a continuous narrative, but fragments of discontinuous narratives, each forming a relatively autonomous unit, separated by the Basmala. And on the other hand Binarity, which can be found at all levels: two members, parallel pieces, pairs of suras (or passages), subsequences composed of two pairs of suras, two sequences composed of two subsequences, and finally a section composed of two sequences.

God bless you all.