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Why You Can't Save The World - Poverty & Social Inequalities

Started by Neptin, May 19, 2021, 04:58:01 AM

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Neptin

Social inequalities include income inequalities among individuals in society. There're plenty of poverty reduction/eradication or wealth redistribution schemes & full on economic systems like socialism intended to nullify or eliminate income inequality among people.

The premise behind all of these is that social inequalities are man-made and can be essentially eliminated to bring about a broad scale equality among the masses. Basically to abolish poverty. This is contrary to the Qur'an. Let's see what the verses state.

Why Poverty & Social Inequality Are Inevitable

34:36. Say, "My Lord spreads out His bounty to whomever He wills, or restricts it; but most people do not know."

53:48. And that it is He who enriches and impoverishes.

2:155. We will certainly test you with some fear and hunger, and some loss of possessions and lives and crops. But give good news to the steadfast.

16:71. God has favored some of you over others in livelihood. Those who are favored would not give their properties to their servants, to the extent of making them partners in it. Will they then renounce God's blessings?

4:32. Do not covet what God has given to some of you in preference to others. For men is a share of what they have earned, and for women is a share of what they have earned. And ask God of his bounty. God has knowledge of everything.

What we learn from these verses is that the socio-economic utopia of equality in inevitable. Am not saying we shouldn't help the poor & underprivileged. Am saying there will always be poor & underprivileged folks, and the cause may not be laziness of the poor or some unfair advantage that the rich benefit from.

Some people however say that, they are not concerned about existence of poverty or inequality on an individual level, but on a group or demographic level. They want to even out the wealth or poverty rate between genders, race, or ethnicity.

But the Qur'an confirms that not just individuals, certain groups like nations & communities may be preferred & blessed above others. For instance;

17:70. We have honored the Children of Adam, and carried them on land and sea, and provided them with good things, and greatly favored them over many of those We created.

Does the "Children of Israel" apply to modern Jews? Am not so sure, but one thing I can admit is that despite being a very tiny proportion of human population, Jews are a very powerful group & have contributed a lot to modern science than some larger non-Jewish demographics.

3:55. God said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, and raising you to Me, and clearing you of those who disbelieve. And I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection.

61:14. O you who believe! Be supporters of God, as Jesus son of Mary said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters towards God?" The disciples said, "We are God's supporters." So a group of the Children of Israel believed, while another group disbelieved. We supported those who believed against their foe, so they became dominant.
Reclaiming Islam from extremism;
[url=http://flamesoftruth.wordpress.com]Flames Of Truth[/url]

jkhan

Quote from: Neptin on May 19, 2021, 04:58:01 AM
Social inequalities include income inequalities among individuals in society. There're plenty of poverty reduction/eradication or wealth redistribution schemes & full on economic systems like socialism intended to nullify or eliminate income inequality among people.

The premise behind all of these is that social inequalities are man-made and can be essentially eliminated to bring about a broad scale equality among the masses. Basically to abolish poverty. This is contrary to the Qur'an. Let's see what the verses state.

Why Poverty & Social Inequality Are Inevitable

34:36. Say, "My Lord spreads out His bounty to whomever He wills, or restricts it; but most people do not know."

53:48. And that it is He who enriches and impoverishes.

2:155. We will certainly test you with some fear and hunger, and some loss of possessions and lives and crops. But give good news to the steadfast.

16:71. God has favored some of you over others in livelihood. Those who are favored would not give their properties to their servants, to the extent of making them partners in it. Will they then renounce God's blessings?

4:32. Do not covet what God has given to some of you in preference to others. For men is a share of what they have earned, and for women is a share of what they have earned. And ask God of his bounty. God has knowledge of everything.

What we learn from these verses is that the socio-economic utopia of equality in inevitable. Am not saying we shouldn't help the poor & underprivileged. Am saying there will always be poor & underprivileged folks, and the cause may not be laziness of the poor or some unfair advantage that the rich benefit from.

Some people however say that, they are not concerned about existence of poverty or inequality on an individual level, but on a group or demographic level. They want to even out the wealth or poverty rate between genders, race, or ethnicity.

But the Qur'an confirms that not just individuals, certain groups like nations & communities may be preferred & blessed above others. For instance;

17:70. We have honored the Children of Adam, and carried them on land and sea, and provided them with good things, and greatly favored them over many of those We created.

Does the "Children of Israel" apply to modern Jews? Am not so sure, but one thing I can admit is that despite being a very tiny proportion of human population, Jews are a very powerful group & have contributed a lot to modern science than some larger non-Jewish demographics.

3:55. God said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, and raising you to Me, and clearing you of those who disbelieve. And I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection.

61:14. O you who believe! Be supporters of God, as Jesus son of Mary said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters towards God?" The disciples said, "We are God's supporters." So a group of the Children of Israel believed, while another group disbelieved. We supported those who believed against their foe, so they became dominant.

Peace Neptin...

The verses which you presented here are manifestly exposes what God intended... Aren't they?..  In fact God let the inequality to prevail...  It doesn't mean charity would never eradicate inequality... Charity would always help those who are in need of them but it won't make them rich coz God gives wealth and God restricts.. So nothing can eradicate inequality..

Without inequality there cannot be a world which is full of test... If utopia it is fine no need of inequalities to the extent one to suffer and one to rejoice..
Inequality is mandatory in this testing field of life...
For example note the inequality in animals.. One suffers on another's prey.. That's definite inequality.. If none preys on another then equal..

In human also same.. Everyone depends on another for living wittingly or unwittingly..

God has created His riches but certain groups grabbed them and they became rich.. And we are not in a position to say that God didn't give them that but they earned them.. No.. But God gave them not necessarily coz God loves them above others but that's His preference...

Charity plays a imperative role coz in God's language charity is absolutely inevitable even to the extent that one cannot reach Janna in the absence of charity in his or her life..
If God is weighing much on charity how come the equality in social life can become true.. No way..

So.. Bro.. As you say inequality would probably remain as long as the Earth and heavens last.. That's how it works... I agree with you..

But.. Poverty iradication is possible and should be encouraged to do so... Inequality in social status/life and poverty is two different things if you apply certain criteria to measure them..
Charity can by and large eradicate poverty but social inequality will remain.. Social inequality is not bad but the way the rich behave and the angle the poor look at them is to be changed.. All in all God figured it out nice and well poised...

Your heading... We can root out poverty fir sure.. So we can save the world in that aspect.. Further social inequalities of arrogance can be mitigated if people (rich) become humble.. But obvious social inequalities such as rich and poor cannot be eradicated..
Let us die with guidance

Neptin

Quote from: jkhan on May 19, 2021, 05:59:14 AM

But.. Poverty iradication is possible and should be encouraged to do so... Inequality in social status/life and poverty is two different things if you apply certain criteria to measure them..
Charity can by and large eradicate poverty but social inequality will remain.. Social inequality is not bad but the way the rich behave and the angle the poor look at them is to be changed.. All in all God figured it out nice and well poised...

Your heading... We can root out poverty fir sure.. So we can save the world in that aspect.. Further social inequalities of arrogance can be mitigated if people (rich) become humble.. But obvious social inequalities such as rich and poor cannot be eradicated..

Poverty can't be eradicated? Have you forgotten the verses I've cited?

2:155. We will certainly test you with some fear and hunger, and some loss of possessions and lives and crops. But give good news to the steadfast.

53:48. And that it is He who enriches and impoverishes.

I think the verses are straightforward. Qur'an confirmes that God does destine poverty for some people. So, that means you can't eradicate it. I can as well go into the economics that makes poverty eradication a pipe dream. But that'll consume too much time.

QuoteFurther social inequalities of arrogance can be mitigated if people (rich) become humble.. But obvious social inequalities such as rich and poor cannot be eradicated..

Social inequality have nothing to do with arrogance. It is often correlated with wealth and have to do with individual opportunities and achievement in society. So rich people becoming humble won't mitigate against it.
Reclaiming Islam from extremism;
[url=http://flamesoftruth.wordpress.com]Flames Of Truth[/url]

jkhan

Quote from: Neptin on May 20, 2021, 06:50:49 AM
Poverty can't be eradicated? Have you forgotten the verses I've cited?

2:155. We will certainly test you with some fear and hunger, and some loss of possessions and lives and crops. But give good news to the steadfast.

53:48. And that it is He who enriches and impoverishes.

I think the verses are straightforward. Qur'an confirmes that God does destine poverty for some people. So, that means you can't eradicate it. I can as well go into the economics that makes poverty eradication a pipe dream. But that'll consume too much time.

Social inequality have nothing to do with arrogance. It is often correlated with wealth and have to do with individual opportunities and achievement in society. So rich people becoming humble won't mitigate against it.

Peace Neptine...

I don't think you got what poverty is... I know you know the meaning but you didn't figure it out with what you explained. 
Btw in none of the above verses God used poverty in real meaning...  Taking ones possession of testing for some time can't be poverty... It can happen even to rich people all of a sudden... I remain with the view that poverty can be eradicated and should be encouraged to do so... Eradicating poverty does never ever mean those in poverty become rich...
No more comments... Systematic charity in every community can surely eradicate poverty... One option..
Let us die with guidance

Ronin

Peace all,

Allow me to share some of my thoughts about poverty in FM. But instead of creating a new thread about poverty, I thought I'd share some of my thoughts in an existing/old thread.

I think poverty is systemic (a societal/collective phenomenon). But I also think poverty is an individual phenomenon.

As mentioned earlier, I think poverty is systemic (a societal/collective phenomenon). As an example, no matter how much an honest man or woman strives/struggles in a country with an extremely high rate of inflation or where the job market is almost non-existent, then his or her labour might bear little fruit. As another example, if there is a natural disaster, or war, or drought, or famine in a country, it might cause poverty among the citizens of that country. Therefore it appears that poverty is systemic (a societal/collective phenomenon). Nevertheless, I think it's indisputable that poverty is also an individual phenomen. For example, if someone gambles, or is thriftless, or is a a debtor or is unoccupied/idle (for a very long period of time), then he or she might become poor. Therefore, it seems that poverty is also an individual phenomenon. But is poverty mostly a societal/collective phenomenon or is it mostly an individual phenomenon? I will share some of my thoughts about this in my next post in this thread. In the meanwhile, let me share a quote (in this thread) about the importance of the efforts of an individual in a society and the impact the individual might have on the society as a whole. 

"There is no power of law that can make the idle man industrious, the thriftless provident, or the drunken sober; though every individual can be each and all of these if he will, by the exercise of his own free powers of action and self-denial. Indeed, all experience serves to prove that the worth and strength of a state depend far less upon the form of its institutions than upon the character of its men. For the nation is only the aggregate of individual conditions, and civilization itself is but a question of personal improvement."

Ronin

Peace everyone,

Quote from: Ronin on November 07, 2023, 08:58:00 PM
But is poverty mostly a societal/collective phenomenon or is it mostly an individual phenomenon? I will share some of my thoughts about this in my next post in this thread.

I have changed my mind and decided to not share my thoughts on whether poverty is mostly a societal/collective phenomenon or an individual phenomenon. Also, due to some personal reasons, I have decided to take a long break from this forum. I will read the posts here and log into this forum, but I will not write any posts here for a long time.