Author Topic: Hur Ain  (Read 307 times)

centi50

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Hur Ain
« on: April 24, 2021, 01:58:17 AM »
Salam to All

Please can someone explain to me this verse. What is hur ain are they really women
To be given in paradise to men

Al-Waqi'ah 56:22

وَحُورٌ عِينٌ

And [for them are] fair women with large, [beautiful] eyes,

What does hur ain mean


What does this verse also mean

Al-Waqi'ah 56:17

يَطُوفُ عَلَيْهِمْ وِلْدَٰنٌ مُّخَلَّدُونَ

There will circulate among them young boys made eternal

God bless you all

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hur Ain
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2021, 09:42:53 AM »
Al-Waqi'ah 56:22

وَحُورٌ عِينٌ

And [for them are] fair women with large, [beautiful] eyes,

Al-Waqi'ah 56:17

يَطُوفُ عَلَيْهِمْ وِلْدَٰنٌ مُّخَلَّدُونَ

There will circulate among them young boys made eternal

peace, issue with translations is they don't tell what words are being translated.
likewise, verses pertaining to heaven/hell etc., are none literal to give a sense.


18:80 واما and as for الغلم l-ghulāmu/the boy
18:82 واما and as for الجدار the wall فكان so it was لغلمىن lighulamayni/for boys two (age below maturity/marriage) ىتىمىن orphaned two

56:17 ىطوف circulate علىهم upon them ولدن wil'dānun/youngsters مخلدون who eternally being/immortals'
56:22 وحور waḥūrun/and fair ones عىن ʿīnun/large eyes
56:23 كامثل like similitudes اللولو the pearl المكنون those well-kept


walad (offspring/child) http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Waw-Lam-Dal = to beget, give birth

2:233 … لا not تضار made to suffer والده parent (maternal) بولدها biwaladiha/in (due to) offspring/child hers

4:75 وما and what لكم for you لا not تقتلون thou fighting فى in سبىل pathway الله the god والمستضعفىن and those oppressed/weak من from الرجل the menfolk والنسا and the womenfolk والولدن wal-wildani/and the youngsters (children)




centi50

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Re: Hur Ain
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2021, 03:26:27 AM »
Thank you brother noon for replying. I didn't understand your reply. Can you please put it in layman language. What does those verses meaning

God bless
peace, issue with translations is they don't tell what words are being translated.
likewise, verses pertaining to heaven/hell etc., are none literal to give a sense.


18:80 واما and as for الغلم l-ghulāmu/the boy
18:82 واما and as for الجدار the wall فكان so it was لغلمىن lighulamayni/for boys two (age below maturity/marriage) ىتىمىن orphaned two

56:17 ىطوف circulate علىهم upon them ولدن wil'dānun/youngsters مخلدون who eternally being/immortals'
56:22 وحور waḥūrun/and fair ones عىن ʿīnun/large eyes
56:23 كامثل like similitudes اللولو the pearl المكنون those well-kept


walad (offspring/child) http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Waw-Lam-Dal = to beget, give birth

2:233 … لا not تضار made to suffer والده parent (maternal) بولدها biwaladiha/in (due to) offspring/child hers

4:75 وما and what لكم for you لا not تقتلون thou fighting فى in سبىل pathway الله the god والمستضعفىن and those oppressed/weak من from الرجل the menfolk والنسا and the womenfolk والولدن wal-wildani/and the youngsters (children)


Noon waalqalami

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Re: Hur Ain
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2021, 11:04:16 PM »
Thank you brother noon for replying. I didn't understand your reply. Can you please put it in layman language. What does those verses meaning

God bless

peace centi50,

it describes a banquet of sorts (nonliteral analogy) think of a party while others cast in abyss etc.

Nice recital: https://youtu.be/oEjtm47VeoU

Be mindful of mistranslated words e.g. ageless youngsters (not boys), fair-eyed companions et al.

peace and blessing!

jemby97

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Re: Hur Ain
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2021, 05:28:47 AM »
Salam

I would like to refer you to this youtube video by Joseph Yassin.
I think he explained this topic quite nicely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMHnkQwb3ZQ

Basically he refers to Houru Ain as Constant Cycles (infinite Cycles of Energy)

Hope it helps.

good logic

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Re: Hur Ain
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2021, 03:29:53 PM »
My understanding of "Hur" and "Hur een" is some sort of "cycles" of another life.
 For example we are coupled in this life by a soul and a body. In the hereafter "Zawwajnahum bi-hur een" just means GOD  will couple the new creation s soul by another "body" one that is different from this body. One that is pure...etc.
GOD also gives example of the fruits of paradise cycle of life. Every-time a fruit is picked it is replaced new like the first but untouched...

So, Cheers to all for a new life in a new body with new provisions in a new place ...But not as humans!
GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

centi50

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Re: Hur Ain
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2021, 05:18:13 PM »
Salams to all

Thank you for your time and help

God bless

Anoushirvan

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Re: Hur Ain
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2021, 01:38:44 AM »
Salam

"Hur Ain" is typically a subject that testifies that Qur'an was originally a Judaic text written in Arabic, and not a "Muslim" text, nor a "Qur'an-alone" text.
By that, I mean it is mandatory to understand the ancient Judaic thought in order to understand Qur'an, and especially the meaning of "hur ain".

By the way, I see a lot of reasoning based on Arabic roots of either "hur" or "ain".
But the concept of Arabic roots was invented two centuries later after Qur'an by Persian grammarians, so it sounds fairly anachronistic to use that in order to understand Qur'an.
It is not conceptually different from using hadiths, though Arabic roots could bring us a bit closer to the actual meaning of Qur'an than hadiths.

Plus, the grammarians lived primarily in Iraq and were more acquainted with the Eastern dialects of Arabic than with Western dialects, especially Hijazi, in which Qur'an seems to have been written (cf. Kees Versteegh, Arabic Language).
To me, it is not clear how roots might have been classified if those grammarians started from Hijazi dialect first.

So in short, using Arabic roots for understanding Qur'an works most of the time, but sometimes it doesn't.
In particular, Arabic roots are helpless in regard to the expression "Hur Ain".

Before the invention of Arabic roots at the end of the 8th CE, the "tools" people had at their disposal in the beginning the 7th CE were sonority and assonance, in alluding to other words and expressions.

Sonority and assonance of Arabic words did not need to allude exclusively to other Arabic words. They could also be cognate to other languages like Aramaic (Syriac) or Hebrew, in particular because Syriac and Hebrew were the religious languages at that time, a bit like Arabic is today the religious language for Islamic concepts and people often quote Arabic words even in English discourses and even though they don't speak Arabic.

In particular, the expression حُورٌ عِينٌ / hoorun 'Ainun is a kind of phonetic cognate of the Aramaic / Hebrew expression חָוַר יַיִן Hivvar Yayin, that designates a kind of white wine (cf. Markus Jastrow, Dictionary of Targumin, p.452)


חָוַר / Hivvar in Hebrew and حُورٌ / hoor in Arabic mean the same, white, and are composed of cognate letters H-W-R.

יַיִן / Yayin in Hebrew and عِينٌ / 'Ain in Arabic do not mean the same, the former means wine, the latter means eye or source, and there is one cognate letter that differs, yod vs. 'ayn.
(By the way, curiously, in Greek the word "wine" is "oinos" and could very well come from Semitic languages).


But on the other hands, in Judaic texts in Aramaic and Hebrew, there are often puns between 'ayn (eye) and yayin (wine), like here in Proverbs 23.31

אַל־תֵּ֥רֶא יַיִן֮ כִּ֪י יִתְאַ֫דָּ֥ם כִּֽי־יִתֵּ֣ן בכיס [בַּכּ֣וֹס] עֵינ֑וֹ יִ֝תְהַלֵּ֗ךְ בְּמֵישָׁרִֽים׃
Do not ogle that red wine As it lends its color to the cup, As it flows on smoothly;

Here, literally the wine (יַיִן֮ / yayin), when it is red, so not white, gives an eye (יִתֵּ֣ן עֵינ֑וֹ / yiten 'eynow ) to the cup, like a shameless woman.
The word cup, kis in Hebrew, has also a sexual meaning (btw it probably comes from a similar word in Persian), but I will not dig into the details.


So wine and sexually attractive women belonged in the ancient Judaic thought to the same set of signifiers and the link between those was made by means of puns, sonority, assonance alluding each others.

Therefore, it is not without surprise that the expression "Hur 'Ain" in Qur'an could very well allude to pure (hwr) but nevertheless sexually attractive women, by echoing them to a white wine, from a Hebrew expression that was known to people of that epoch, learned in the Scriptures.

In verse Qur'a verse 44.54,
كَذَٰلِكَ وَزَوَّجْنَاهُمْ بِحُورٍ عِينٍ
So it is, and We will wed them to "lovely companions".

the pious are married to those "Hur 'Ain", and this only makes sense if in the first sense, those "Hur 'Ain" are actually women.

In Zechariah 9.17, we find

כִּ֥י מַה־טּוּב֖וֹ וּמַה־יָפְי֑וֹ דָּגָן֙ בַּֽחוּרִ֔ים וְתִיר֖וֹשׁ יְנוֹבֵ֥ב בְּתֻלֽוֹת׃
How lovely, how beautiful they shall be, Producing young men like new grain, Young women like new wine!

"Young men" is to be read "baHurim" in Hebrew, to which the Arabic expression بِحُورٍ عِينٍ / biHur 'Ain in verses 44.54 and 52.20 is a form of echo.

In Qur'an verse 56.17 it is alluded to young sons accompanying the pious:
يَطُوفُ عَلَيْهِمْ وِلْدَانٌ مُخَلَّدُونَ
Serving them will be immortalized youth.

So as in Zechariah 9.17, we find in Qur'an surah 56 in the same context and pericope young boys and maiden.


In the Song of Songs 8.2 we read this verse:
אֶנְהָֽגֲךָ֗ אֲבִֽיאֲךָ֛ אֶל־בֵּ֥ית אִמִּ֖י תְּלַמְּדֵ֑נִי אַשְׁקְךָ֙ מִיַּ֣יִן הָרֶ֔קַח מֵעֲסִ֖יס רִמֹּנִֽי׃
I would lead you, I would bring you To the house of my mother, Of her who taught me— I would let you drink of the spiced wine, Of my pomegranate juice.

Basically this verse alludes to, as in the ancient Judaic thought, that drinking wine is actually learning.

But learning what ?
For the ancient Jews, there was only one thing worth to be learnt, not only throughout this whole life but also in the world to come: the Law, the divine Law, that for the Jews was and is the Torah.


In this verse 8.2 of the Song of the Songs, the "spiced wine" is Yayin Ha-reqaH in Hebrew, reqaH meaning spicy or perfumed.

In in Qur'an verse 83.25, curiously, it is mentioned a kind of magic beverage, raHiq
يُسْقَوْنَ مِنْ رَحِيقٍ مَخْتُومٍ
Yusqawna Min Raĥīqin Makhtūmin

In fact, in Semitic languages, metathesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metathesis_(linguistics)), which is interchange of two or more contiguous segments or syllables, frequently occur.
Read for example this paper, mentioning that the phenomenon was observed in Arabic by some ancient grammarians: https://www.arcjournals.org/pdfs/ijsell/v6-i5/3.pdf

So raHiq in Qur'an could be very well the same as Hebrew reqaH in the Song of the Songs. This is another indication that Arabic roots is a tool that has to be handled with a bit of salt.


So we come now to the point: in the ancient Judaic thought, there were a lot of metaphoric ways to allude to the Law: clothes, bread, wine, young women, etc.

What Qur'an means by "Hur 'Ain", as per the ancient Judaic thought, is that at the end of times, in the world to come, the righteous will enjoy a new Law / din (a virgin one and a pure one), like brand new clothes for them, devoid of any "idolatrous" impurities, i.e. a Law without the blemishes that are the result of fouling by a wrong beliefs and that lead to spread corruption on earth.


reel

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Re: Hur Ain
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2021, 12:59:36 PM »
Application of the verses seem to show a reality kept mostly secret. Distortion apparently is intentional in every religion because they fear misuse of the knowledge.

I don't know what garden truly means anymore. But yes, tiny spirit guides seem to exist. Then there are changeable large eyes within eyes. I still don't know their purpose.


"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj