Author Topic: 4:34 means to strike them and Freeminds translation is wrong?  (Read 234 times)

Fulanibnfulan

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The following is taken from Usama Hasan’s research on 4:34. According to him, the Quranist modernists have taken a grammatically impossible interpretation. Is his assessment of the grammar correct? Please see:

“However well-intentioned, this interpretation is grammatically incorrect since it requires the preposition ‘an, which is missing from the wife-beating ayah.

The verse means “to travel with them” since daraba fi l-ard means “to travel,” e.g. Qur’an 3:156 and 4:101. Again, such a translation would be grammatically incorrect because the preposition fi is missing from the ayah of wife-beating.

The grammatically-incorrect translations are somewhat similar to saying in English that “beat them” means “beat it, i.e. go away” or that “hit your wife” means “hit on your wife,” i.e. to make a sexual advance, in contemporary slang.”

Any responses?

Wakas

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Re: 4:34 means to strike them and Freeminds translation is wrong?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2021, 03:31:41 PM »
By far the most cogent and evidenced understanding can be found here:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html

All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

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Mazhar

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Re: 4:34 means to strike them and Freeminds translation is wrong?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2021, 04:31:14 AM »
When the verb "beat" is dynamic it needs association of instrument also.

Domestic Violence

Grand Qur’ān has prohibited domestic violence negating erroneous "belief" of beating one's wife.

The basic perception, meanings and signification of this Root: "ض ر ب"  as stated in Classical Lexicon of Er-Rághib is: إيقاعُ شيءٍ على شيء:That it signifies causing a thing to fall, tumble upon or with it dislodge another thing. Lane Lexicon stated:  "accord. to Er-Rághib, الضَّرْبُ signifies the making a thing to fall upon another thing;" [unquote]

The conceptual meanings of the Root evidently reveal that its meanings in the real-world experience will be reflected by the collocates or other words associated with it in the context. The pattern (باب in Arabic) has both stative and dynamic verbs. For dynamic verb in the meaning of striking with force with the aim of hurting someone will need mention of instrument by which strike is made and that will be mentioned by prepositional phrase with preposition بـِ, reference 2:60; 7:160.

It reflects that its effect may necessarily not be of causing hurt. It reflects an instance; an illustration or an occurrence. The most equivalent word in English vocabulary to describe the basic perception and its various uses in different semantic fields is verb "strike".

Semantic field: Strike

Enter awareness : It denotes to fall or shine on something, to make obvious;

to make something noticed;

make something to be perceived or become audible-understandable for someone;

to make some idea enter somebody's mind or occur to somebody; to penetrate or seem to go right through something; make something by stamping;

and Dislodge: to remove something away - displace; dislocate, dislodge, deform, the target with force.

Cause harm: And it signifies to hit somebody or something with a hand, tool, weapon, or other object. Obvious intention is to hurt, damage.

Moreover, support words will be required if the intention of the speaker is to indicate the instance as involving repeated strikes to reflect what is denoted by English word "beating"; punishment in which somebody is repeatedly hit.

Semantically, it relates to activity thereby its agent is sentient. An activity has predetermined objective to achieve. It has two objects between which interrelationship is created. The result or affect of activity will depend upon the manner, angle and force applied in the strike. The objective of strike can either be:

(1) creating an affect in the object that is made to fall upon other thing;

(2) purpose of striking one thing upon another can be making something else apparent that was earlier hidden because of the location of the thing struck upon;

(3) the thing by which another is truck overwhelms; and

(4) Cause harm to the thing struck upon or to expose it.

https://www.haqeeqat.pk/Sexuality-DomesticViolence.htm

Fulanibnfulan

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Re: 4:34 means to strike them and Freeminds translation is wrong?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2021, 10:46:16 AM »
By far the most cogent and evidenced understanding can be found here:
http://www.quran434.com/wife-beating-islam.html

Thanks for sharing but there seems to be a number of errors in this link you have shared. For example, one of the main arguments is that "the only times it can possibly mean a literal hit/strike is when the preposition "bi" (with/by) is used." but this is incorrect as we see in other verses such as 8:12"When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike (idrub) off every fingertip of them." there is no preposition or "bi" here but it is a literal hit/strike.

Is this an error or have I got it wrong?

Thanks!

Wakas

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Re: 4:34 means to strike them and Freeminds translation is wrong?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2021, 11:05:55 AM »
Thanks for sharing but there seems to be a number of errors in this link you have shared. For example, one of the main arguments is that "the only times it can possibly mean a literal hit/strike is when the preposition "bi" (with/by) is used." but this is incorrect as we see in other verses such as 8:12"When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike (idrub) off every fingertip of them." there is no preposition or "bi" here but it is a literal hit/strike.

Is this an error or have I got it wrong?

Thanks!

The link analyses that verse, please re-read.

Quoted here for reference:

16)
fa idriboo fawqa al-aAAnaqi wa idriboo minhum kulla bananin = so strike above/over the necks, and strike from them every/each finger/extremity.
[8:12]

Some use "smite". Translators are divided when it comes to the issue of who is being addressed by this command, even though the verse itself clearly states who is being addressed at the start, and that is the angels/controllers. In terms of what is more likely, it should be noted that this verse is likely addressed to the controllers than to the believers, due to the Arabic construction (i.e. no obvious break in addressee throughout and the first "fa" refers to the controllers, thus the second "fa" most likely does also) and it is in the imperative mood, meaning it is a command to be followed. Thus, it is impractical and illogical to command all believers when in battle to strike above/over the necks and each/every finger from the enemy. Especially since there is no need for doing both! Therefore it more likely refers to the controllers, as we shall now examine:

When your Lord inspires* to the angels/controllers** “I am with you so keep firm those who believed. I shall cast terror into the hearts/minds*** of those who reject; so strike above/over the necks, and strike from them every/each finger/extremity.” [8:12]

*imperfect tense, i.e. an action in the process of being done.
**angels is better translated as controllers, i.e. forces in control of certain functions/laws. There are some controllers we know about, e.g. those found in nature: F=ma, E=mc² etc. and some we do not know about.
 ***qalb is often used like the English word "heart", meaning the physical organ, but more often for the locus of feelings/intuitions etc.

The verse seems to imply then: God will instil/cast terror into the heart/minds of those who reject, and then nature's forces take their course, resulting in affecting anything above the neck, e.g. the throat/mind/thoughts/senses/breathing and limbs/fingers of the rejecters, i.e. likely causing impairment of their performance. Instilling a sense of terror/fear in someone often results in their mind/thoughts/senses being affected/paralysed, and often results in trembling/shaking, especially transferring to the hands, which would likely result in weak fighting skills (swordsmanship or accuracy of arrows) when in battle. It is also interesting to note that when someone is fearful or anxious/nervous, their throat often becomes dry and precipitates an involuntary gulp reaction, i.e. a manifestation of fear/anxiety. Physical manifestations of anxiety: trouble concentrating, feeling like your mind's gone blank, dizziness, shortness of breath, muscle tension, fatigue, headaches (source).

The above understanding may also help clarify the confusion some translators have about 8:17 on who really did the defeating and who really did the casting (Arabic: rama, root: Ra-Miim-Ya). As it likely refers to the use of "cast" (Arabic: olqee, root: Lam-Qaf-Ya) done by God in 8:12. Also see 33:26 for comparison. Interestingly, if we take "rama" to mean "throw or cast" as in arrows or pebbles in 8:17 as done by some translators, then obviously the believers did not strike above the necks and each finger, making this interpretation even less likely. As is common, there are conflicting accounts between the traditional tafsirs on 8:17 and what was thrown, e.g. Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi (arrow), and Tafsir al-Jalalayn (pebbles), and Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs (dust). See M.Asad's note on 8:17 which mentions several possible explanations.
Interestingly, some traditional interpretations take 8:12 to mean the "angels" literally struck off the necks in battle (but neglect to mention the fingers!), but if this was the case, then there would be little need for 8:17 to re-affirm who really did the defeating, i.e. God, as it would be rather obvious. To resolve this problem, some say just as the believers were to strike the necks with their swords the heads of the enemy would fall off, and this was the angels at work! It is a fanciful explanation, but again, they neglect to mention the fingers, or the logic of this application. Thus, the division amongst translators as to whom the command refers is likely related to their misunderstanding of DRB, hence their awkward explanations.

To conclude, 8:12 is addressed to the controllers, and DRB does not mean a literal/physical "strike" e.g. by sword, as is commonly understood, unless taken metaphorically. Thus, may be better rendered as "put forth" or "put into commotion" in these two occurrences.
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org