Author Topic: When Ramadan fell as a month during the time of the Prophet  (Read 229 times)

Safe_from_sweden

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When Ramadan fell as a month during the time of the Prophet
« on: April 14, 2021, 01:16:18 AM »
Peace!

If we assume that Ramadan was the month considered when Muslims begin fasting, then I wonder if anyone knows the answer to the question when Ramadan fell as a month during the time of the Prophet, given that the hijri calendar was introduced after his death.

Obviously, the practice in question differs when one began fasting during the time of the Prophet and during the present time. Do Muslims dare to admit that in that case they do not follow the practice of the Prophet?

Wakas

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Re: When Ramadan fell as a month during the time of the Prophet
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2021, 08:21:15 AM »
The intro to this article is interesting:
https://www.free-minds.org/node/208

Every year, a common occurrence is a dispute between followers of various sects about when so-called Ramadan starts and ends. This year is no exception and some countries ended their so-called Ramadan one day before others.

In the so-called Islamic calendar the start of Ramadan depends on the sighting of the new crescent moon. The sighting of the new crescent moon is not an easy task and only expert observers under optimal viewing conditions can see the new-moon crescent. Hence, the vast majority of people never sees the new-moon crescent and only sees the 1-2 day old crescent. This difficulty is a major reason for the annual dispute about the timing. What many people don't know is that the start of so-called Ramadan depends on a myriad of other factors other than the sighting of the new-moon crescent.

The current so-called Islamic calendar was established during the time of Caliph Omar, long after the death of the prophet and the revelation of the great reading. This is confirmed by archeological evidence from coins and manuscripts of the era. [Please see: Alan Jones, "The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558", in Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.]

Interestingly, the word "hijri" doesn't appear on manuscripts until much later so we don't really know what this arbitrary dating of the new era was based on.

One of the factors that affects when present-day so-called Ramadan starts depends on when the start of the so-called Islamic calendar was set. For example, had its start been set for three years earlier, then this year the dating of Ramadan would have been a month earlier. As I mentioned above, we know from verifiable archeological evidence that the new calendar was established around 638 AD, long after the prophet's time. Several generations later, a story circulated that Omar decided after consultation with others to make the year of the "hijra" the first date of the new era. So the timing of Ramadan today is dependent not only on the sighting of the new crescent moon but on an arbitrary decision that was made many centuries ago.

As a side note, traditionalists also contend that the prophet first started to abstain in the second year after migration/"hijra". So according to them this means that 2:185 was revealed early in Yathrib. The traditionalists contend that Chapter 9 (where they claim there is the alleged calendar modification order) was revealed in the last year of the prophet's life. By holding to this traditional view and backdating the so-called Islamic calendar to the alleged first year of "hijra" sectarians imply that all his life, the prophet abstained on the wrong dates (see Appendix).

Another factor that the start of the present so-called Ramadan depends on is the order of the months at the time the new calendar system was adopted. In "pre-quranic" times, the Arabs didn't use a single standard calendar. Arabs used calendars based on 4, 5, and 6-season system. Some "pre-quranic" Arabs used the calendar system of the Persians. Others used the calendar system of the Jews and some used the calendar system of the Romans. The Nabataeans used to align the months with the zodiac and hence some Arabs used the star based calendar system. Even the 4 season system was different than the modern 4 season system that we have today. For example, according to Lisan Al-3arab "sayf" was spring, "qayth" was summer, "kharif" was autumn, and "shitaa" was winter. Rabi3 months etymology denotes grazing in spring and fall. In Arabia the rainy season, which would promote the growth of grasses for grazing, occurs during autumn. This is confirmed by what is known about Arabs using a 6 season system that split fall into Rabi3 Althani (early fall) and Kharif (late fall) prior to the so-called Islamic calendar. In this system each season lasted two months. The new Omar Calendar that we have today has a different order for the months. The arbitrary decision to rearrange the order of the months also affects when the present day so-called Ramadan occurs.

Hence, in addition to the sighting of the new crescent moon, we have two other completely arbitrary factors affecting when so-called Ramadan starts. Hence, for all intents and purposes, the current so-called Ramadan is completely arbitrary and it is no different than randomly picking a month for abstaining.

The problem of pinpointing an arbitrary month called Ramadan is the same type of problem that the Jews, Christians, and sectarians face in pinpointing their "holy" days in the arbitrary week. For example, sectarians claim that Friday, which they named Al-Jum3at (as opposed to the common noun "ywm al-jum3at"/time of gathering in the great reading), is a special "holy" day where, according to their traditions, Adam was created. What is hard for many people to understand is that the week is completely arbitrary. Hence, the fact is that the week has not always been seven days. Weeks from 4 to 20 days were observed. For example, the ancient Egyptians used a 10-day week while the Mayans used a 20-day week. The week was typically the interval from one market day to the next. Four to 20 days gave farmers and craftsmen enough time to gather and transport products to sell. Hence, when Friday occurs depends on when the present seven day week was arbitrarily adopted and which day it started with.

There is nothing wrong or forbidden with an arbitrary timeframe in itself. The problem is to act as if The God somehow has to conform to the man-made arbitrary timeframes and to say to people that The God ordered you to fast in this or that completely arbitrary timeframe or take that arbitrary day as "holy". Another problem with such arbitrary timeframes is that errors made at the beginning of their adoption are propagated into the future and get larger and larger. This shouldn't be the case because we are not responsible for the errors of those who came before us. Hence, an effective method of specifying a timeframe shouldn't be one that allows such errors to propagate. It should be one that allows those who have faith at any point of time to obey The God's command correctly irrespective of what their predecessors decided to do or not to do. This is impossible with the current so-called Islamic calendar, which as we saw is influenced by decisions made centuries ago. Another problem is that, as we saw earlier, now and in the past people used different calendars, a universal command that is to be understood by everybody would best be based on clear cosmic phenomena and not on man-made calendars.

Now that we presented the problem, let's look in the great reading for the solution.


#####

And it does not even mention this issue which is further problematic:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610235.0
All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org

Noon waalqalami

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Re: When Ramadan fell as a month during the time of the Prophet
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2021, 12:20:43 AM »
Peace!

If we assume that Ramadan was the month considered when Muslims begin fasting, then I wonder if anyone knows the answer to the question when Ramadan fell as a month during the time of the Prophet, given that the hijri calendar was introduced after his death.

Obviously, the practice in question differs when one began fasting during the time of the Prophet and during the present time. Do Muslims dare to admit that in that case they do not follow the practice of the Prophet?

Peace, aligns with perf558 first new month starting after the first full moon after the summer solstice (opposite for s. hemisphere i.e. use winter solstice) count 12 and skip occasional 13th …

2:185 شهر shahru/lunar cycle رمضان ramadan (heat) الذى the one انزل descends فىه in it القرن the Qur’an/recitation...

Perf558 شهر shahru/lunar cycle جمدى jumada (dried) الاولى the first من from سنه year اثنىن twosome وعشرىن and twenty (22)

jumada al-ula 30, 22 AH / April 25, 643 CE / Pharmouthi 30, the 1st indiction (Perf 558)
https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/perf558

http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases0601.html

Year newm cres ) shr traditional shr full moon

610 Jun 26 Jun 28 8 Sha‘bān 12 Jul 11 full moon after summer solstice
610 Jul 25 Jul 27 9 Ramaḍān 1 Aug 10 Ramaḍān start of revelation
610 Aug 24 Aug 26 10 Shawwāl 2 Sep 8
610 Sep 22 Sep 24 11 Dhū al-Qa‘dah 3 Oct 8
610 Oct 22 Oct 24 12 Dhū al-Ḥijjah 4 Nov 6
610 Nov 21 Nov 23 1 Muḥarram 5 Dec 6

611 Dec 21 Dec 23 2 Ṣafar 6 Jan 4
611 Jan 19 Jan 21 3 Rabī‘ al-awwal 7 Feb 3
611 Feb 18 Feb 20 4 Rabī‘ ath-thānī 8 Mar 4
611 Mar 20 Mar 22 5 Jumada al-awwal 9 Apr 3
611 Apr 18 Apr 20 6 Jumada al-thani 10 May 2
611 May 18 May 20 7 Rajab 11 Jun 1
611 Jun 16 Jun 18 8 Sha‘bān 12 Jun 30 full moon after summer solstice
611 Jul 15 Jul 17 9 Ramaḍān 1 Jul 30 Ramaḍān
611 Aug 13 Aug 15 10 Shawwāl 2 Aug 29
611 Sep 12 Sep 14 11 Dhū al-Qa‘dah 3 Sep 27
611 Oct 11 Oct 13 12 Dhū al-Ḥijjah 4 Oct 27
611 Nov 10 Nov 12 1 Muḥarram 5 Nov 25
611 Dec 10 Dec 12 2 Ṣafar 6 Dec 25

612 Jan 8 Jan 10 3 Rabī‘ al-awwal 7 Jan 23
612 Feb 7 Feb 9 4 Rabī‘ ath-thānī 8 Feb 22
612 Mar 8 Mar 10 5 Jumada al-awwal 9 Mar 22
612 Apr 7 Apr 9 6 Jumada al-thani 10 Apr 21
612 May 6 May 8 7 Rajab 11 May 20
612 Jun 4 Jun 6 8 Sha‘bān 12 Jun 18
612 Jul 4 Jul 6 9 Ramaḍān (skip) Jul 18 full moon after summer solstice
612 Aug 2 Aug 4 10 Shawwāl 1 Aug 17 Ramaḍān
612 Aug 31 Sep 2 11 Dhū al-Qa‘dah 2 Sep 15
612 Sep 30 Oct 2 12 Dhū al-Ḥijjah 3 Oct 15
612 Oct 29 Nov 1 1 Muḥarram 4 Nov 14
612 Nov 28 Nov 30 2 Ṣafar 5 Dec 13

Continue...

641 Dec 18 Dec 20 1 Muḥarram 6 Jan 3
641 Jan 17 Jan 19 2 Ṣafar 7 Feb 1
641 Feb 15 Feb 17 3 Rabī‘ al-awwal 8 Mar 3
641 Mar 17 Mar 19 4 Rabī‘ ath-thānī 9 Apr 1
641 Apr 15 Apr 17 5 Jumada al-awwal 10 May 1
641 May 15 May 17 6 Jumada al-thani 11 May 30
641 Jun 14 Jun 16 7 Rajab 12 Jun 28 full moon after summer solstice
641 Jul 13 Jul 15 8 Sha‘bān 1 Jul 27 Ramaḍān
641 Aug 12 Aug 14 9 Ramaḍān 2 Aug 26
641 Sep 10 Sep 12 10 Shawwāl 3 Sep 24
641 Oct 10 Oct 12 11 Dhū al-Qa‘dah 4 Oct 24
641 Nov 8 Nov 10 12 Dhū al-Ḥijjah 5 Nov 23
641 Dec 8 Dec 10 1 Muḥarram 6 Dec 23

642 Jan 6 Jan 8 2 Ṣafar 7 Jan 21
642 Feb 5 Feb 7 3 Rabī‘ al-awwal 8 Feb 20
642 Mar 6 Mar 8 4 Rabī‘ ath-thānī 9 Mar 22
642 Apr 5 Apr 7 5 Jumada al-awwal 10 Apr 20
642 May 4 May 6 6 Jumada al-thani 11 May 19
642 Jun 3 Jun 5 7 Rajab 12 Jun 18
642 Jul 2 Jul 4 8 Sha‘bān (skip) Jul 17 full moon after summer solstice
642 Aug 1 Aug 3 9 Ramaḍān 1 Aug 15 Ramaḍān
642 Aug 31 Sep 2 10 Shawwāl 2 Sep 14
642 Sep 29 Oct 1 11 Dhū al-Qa‘dah 3 Oct 13
642 Oct 29 Oct 31 12 Dhū al-Ḥijjah 4 Nov 12
642 Nov 27 Nov 29 1 Muḥarram 5 Dec 12
642 Dec 27 Dec 29 2 Ṣafar 6 Jan 10

643 Jan 25 Jan 27 3 Rabī‘ al-awwal 7 Feb 9
643 Feb 24 Feb 26 4 Rabī‘ ath-thānī 8 Mar 11
643 Mar 25 Mar 27 5 Jumada al-awwal 9 Apr 10 (Perf 558 April 25, 643 CE)
643 Apr 24 Apr 26 6 Jumada al-thani 10 May 9
643 May 23 May 25 7 Rajab 11 Jun 7
643 Jun 21 Jun 23 8 Sha‘bān 12 Jul 7 full moon after summer solstice
643 Jul 21 Jul 23 9 Ramaḍān 1 Aug 5 Ramaḍān
643 Aug 20 Aug 22 10 Shawwāl 2 Sep 3
643 Sep 18 Sep 20 11 Dhū al-Qa‘dah 3 Oct 3
643 Oct 18 Oct 20 12 Dhū al-Ḥijjah 4 Nov 1
643 Nov 17 Nov 19 1 Muḥarram 5 Dec 1
643 Dec 16 Dec 18 2 Ṣafar 6 Dec 31

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/185?handschrift=601