Author Topic: Feminism, women and Sam Gerrans  (Read 202 times)

Sarah

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 281
  • Karma +1/-0
Feminism, women and Sam Gerrans
« on: March 23, 2021, 12:08:38 PM »
Peace

I watch Sam Gerrans quite a bit since he is one of the only Quran alone people on YouTube. I can't help but know he is wrong about certain matters especially matters pertaining to women. He mentions things such as how women often win in court even if they lie, they can get away with it. Perhaps courts are probably a bit biased in the favour of women. I've heard of this issue many times although I haven't personally had experience in court. There are extreme forms of feminism out there that make everything about female power and dominance instead of equality of a group that has historically been marginalised and still is in certain countries today i.e. Saudi Arabia. Women cannot even choose their own jobs unless a 'mahram' agrees. Talk about human rights. Do I totally agree with everything within feminism? No but I also do not totally disagree either. Women have rights and nowhere in the Qur'an is it mentioned that women should only be these subjugated housewives or in lower positions in society. It doesn't even state they cannot be in positions of power or authority.

Sam Gerrans mentions things such as, 'Any man can be accused by any woman at any time. Men are living in a tyranny. This is what happens when you hand over power to women. You end up living like this. I'm sure I'm going to be accused of being a misogynist. I'm not but what I am not is a feminist.'

Fair enough. He doesn't need to be a feminist. Maybe he doesn't hate women either. Perhaps there are incidents where women are unjustly favoured or believed due to gender discrimination. But what he doesn't realise is that he is biased towards women in general. Women who accuse men of committing wrong and lie about it are women with low morals. Immoral, narcissistic women. It's not because they are women, it's because they are people who happen to be women who happen to lie and make up false accusations. This is what Gerrans does not seem to distinguish or discern.

It happens the other way around too. I've had a male boss and teachers who treated me unfairly, lied to me and got away with it. What Gerrans is implying is that when men are in power, less corruption happens and this is why you should never place a female in power because they place men 'in a tyranny'. He doesn't realise that women with no morals who misuse their power place everybody under a tyranny, male or female. The same goes for men in authority with no sense of morality. They place everybody in a tyranny (unless either of them are sexist). It's not a person's gender which is the problem, it's their character and soul. Again, nowhere in the Qur'an does it state a woman cannot be in a position of authority or power.

He says, 'women don't serve their husbands, they serve their jobs'. Again a false view of what a woman ought to do. Why can't a husband and wife be a team? Why does the wife always need to be seen as lower? Gerrans calls it indoctrination. It's not. Nobody in their right mind wants to be a servant of another human being. They want their intrinsic value to be seen as equal. If men do not want to be seen as servants of women, why do so many of them expect women to want to be servants of men? I honestly think when men feel wives need to 'serve' their husband, it's really just to appease the ego. It's not about morality, it's about the ego. He seems to view this as 'femininity' yet he was never a woman himself. He doesn't understand that women in their right mind do not want to be in a weaker or lower position just because they were born as a female. They do not see themselves as less than men even if that's how some men view them. They want to be seen as a fellow human being. This is not indoctrination, it's a wish to be treated as a person even if they happen to be a different gender. I'm sure as most other women will agree, we weren't born with some sort of 'femininity' that instinctively made us feel like we were less than males or like we should serve them. As children we just felt like a 'person' and as grown adults, we still do. I honestly think men like Sam Gerrans lack the empathy to understand that women want more out of life than just to please and serve their husbands. That is not their life's purpose. Their purpose is to serve and worship God. Sam Gerrans views on women reminds me of when I researched narcissism and how narcissistic, straight men will often see people especially women as being there to serve them. A self-centered view of life.

Think about it, there are so many single women out there, single mothers and women who have nobody to take care of them. If women didn't strive to be independent, who are they going to rely on in situations where there is no man to take care of them or their children? Women have to fight for their rights to survive. Sometimes their families depend on them. That's why they should climb the ladder. Sometimes they will even have males in the family who for one reason or another cannot get a job to support the family. Why should a woman just sit back and do nothing in such situations? Supporting women's rights is supporting society just as is supported men's rights. Any man or woman should be able to have respectable positions in society and financial independence, not simply serve another human being. Many women who have no jobs and serve their husbands are also tyrannised by their husbands.

This is not intended as an attack on his character. I simply wrote my views to point out flaws in his logic on the subject of feminism and women. What he states about women in some of his videos doesn't truly match up to what the Qur'an teaches in my opinion. Perhaps some of what he says is also just his own opinion but sometimes he seems to link this up with verses or his knowledge of the Qur'an. God knows best. This is based on watching his 'Delusion Is Now Baked Into The Cake: Surah 66 With Exposition' video mainly but also on views on women expressed in previous videos.
'These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement (hadith) after Allah and His verses will they believe? (45:6)'

afootandlighthearted

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Feminism, women and Sam Gerrans
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2021, 01:12:29 PM »
I'd have to agree with everything you wrote.

theres nothing wrong with feminist ideas

nor is there anything good about toxic patriarchy,

Neptin

  • Truth Seeker
  • ***
  • Posts: 676
  • Karma +2/-1
Re: Feminism, women and Sam Gerrans
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2021, 09:46:15 AM »
Peace.

I think Sam Gerran found appeal in Islam because unlike Christianity, it remain relatively protected from the onslaught of feminism, liberalism and what Sam would regard pseudo science. The first time I listened to him years ago, my feelings were mixed. Here's a convert who unlike majority of converts didn't find allure in hadith and sunnah, but ironically this convert is a staunch believer in traditional gender roles, and a flat earther. Plus, Sam endorses wife beating translation of Qur'an 4:34. All these completely put me off Sam Gerrans.

But over the years, as my understanding of the social world continued to shift, and as I came to see things are seldom as simple and clear cut as we often learn, I began to understand Sam Gerrans even where I still disagree with his solutions and recommendation.


Sam Gerrans mentions things such as, 'Any man can be accused by any woman at any time. Men are living in a tyranny. This is what happens when you hand over power to women. You end up living like this. I'm sure I'm going to be accused of being a misogynist. I'm not but what I am not is a feminist.'

Fair enough. He doesn't need to be a feminist. Maybe he doesn't hate women either. Perhaps there are incidents where women are unjustly favoured or believed due to gender discrimination. But what he doesn't realise is that he is biased towards women in general. Women who accuse men of committing wrong and lie about it are women with low morals. Immoral, narcissistic women. It's not because they are women, it's because they are people who happen to be women who happen to lie and make up false accusations. This is what Gerrans does not seem to distinguish or discern.

It happens the other way around too. I've had a male boss and teachers who treated me unfairly, lied to me and got away with it. What Gerrans is implying is that when men are in power, less corruption happens and this is why you should never place a female in power because they place men 'in a tyranny'. He doesn't realise that women with no morals who misuse their power place everybody under a tyranny, male or female. The same goes for men in authority with no sense of morality. They place everybody in a tyranny (unless either of them are sexist). It's not a person's gender which is the problem, it's their character and soul. Again, nowhere in the Qur'an does it state a woman cannot be in a position of authority or power.

Fair enough.

Quote
He says, 'women don't serve their husbands, they serve their jobs'. Again a false view of what a woman ought to do. Why can't a husband and wife be a team? Why does the wife always need to be seen as lower? Gerrans calls it indoctrination. It's not. Nobody in their right mind wants to be a servant of another human being. They want their intrinsic value to be seen as equal. If men do not want to be seen as servants of women, why do so many of them expect women to want to be servants of men? I honestly think when men feel wives need to 'serve' their husband, it's really just to appease the ego. It's not about morality, it's about the ego. He seems to view this as 'femininity' yet he was never a woman himself. He doesn't understand that women in their right mind do not want to be in a weaker or lower position just because they were born as a female. They do not see themselves as less than men even if that's how some men view them. They want to be seen as a fellow human being. This is not indoctrination, it's a wish to be treated as a person even if they happen to be a different gender. I'm sure as most other women will agree, we weren't born with some sort of 'femininity' that instinctively made us feel like we were less than males or like we should serve them. As children we just felt like a 'person' and as grown adults, we still do. I honestly think men like Sam Gerrans lack the empathy to understand that women want more out of life than just to please and serve their husbands. That is not their life's purpose. Their purpose is to serve and worship God. Sam Gerrans views on women reminds me of when I researched narcissism and how narcissistic, straight men will often see people especially women as being there to serve them. A self-centered view of life.

Think about it, there are so many single women out there, single mothers and women who have nobody to take care of them. If women didn't strive to be independent, who are they going to rely on in situations where there is no man to take care of them or their children? Women have to fight for their rights to survive. Sometimes their families depend on them. That's why they should climb the ladder. Sometimes they will even have males in the family who for one reason or another cannot get a job to support the family. Why should a woman just sit back and do nothing in such situations? Supporting women's rights is supporting society just as is supported men's rights. Any man or woman should be able to have respectable positions in society and financial independence, not simply serve another human being. Many women who have no jobs and serve their husbands are also tyrannised by their husbands.

The gripe that Sam Gerrans has with feminism and thus women by extension are the fruit it has come be yield several decades since mid twentieth century - things like declining birth rates which has led to increased immigration that then bred cultural clashes and further division of the masses socially and politically. Then you also have the high divorce rate, over saturated job market, etc. all of which may in part be due to women leaving the homes to pursue demanding careers.

So, I think Sam Gerrans has a point. But the problem is with the solution he offers to fix the problems he sees as the poisonous fruits of feminism. The reason why feminism began as you stated is women didn't want to be depended on men. And it makes sense. To remain dependent and subservient to anyone is a form of bondage, and it is risky. What happens if a man fails in his traditional role, what if he suffers an untimely death, or divorce ensues?

Notwithstanding, it seem Sam Gerrans consider it only fair that men who historically built and protect civilization shouldn't be forced to compete with women. It seem Sam sees women incapable of contributing to civilization in the same capacity as men, thus women should in return pay men with a degree of servitude and tolerance. Not only Sam, but a lot of men feel the same.

Quote
This is not intended as an attack on his character. I simply wrote my views to point out flaws in his logic on the subject of feminism and women. What he states about women in some of his videos doesn't truly match up to what the Qur'an teaches in my opinion. Perhaps some of what he says is also just his own opinion but sometimes he seems to link this up with verses or his knowledge of the Qur'an. God knows best. This is based on watching his 'Delusion Is Now Baked Into The Cake: Surah 66 With Exposition' video mainly but also on views on women expressed in previous videos.

Alright, I'll just go and watch the video now to get his point. Though, I think it all boils down to interpretation. We can debate all we want about what a verse states, but at the end of the day, interpretation of Qur'an often vary with time, culture and philosophy of the reader.
Reclaiming Islam from extremism;
Flames Of Truth

reel

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1846
  • Karma +2/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: Feminism, women and Sam Gerrans
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2021, 12:00:07 PM »
I am critical of feminists. But Gerrans' objective is something else. It is best to ignore him.

"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj