Poll

For fun, but serious question - what is the translation of munafiq in Qur'an.

Hypocrite
3 (100%)
Waverer
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Voting closed: March 24, 2021, 01:03:21 PM

Author Topic: Sam Gerrans  (Read 1598 times)

theNabster

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1328
  • Karma +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
Sam Gerrans
« on: February 22, 2021, 09:06:11 AM »
I am currently looking into the self proclaimed Quranist Sam Gerrans.

Not sure what to conclude, he rejects Hadiths wholesale like vast majority of members of free-minds.org, but I feel uneasy with him, he looks strongly like he benefitted from free-minds.org before he did his own translation of Qur'an.

I am looking into it, I tried to interact with him on his belief of Flat Earth but he strongly refused writing he is not prepared to debate the issue with me because he is too busy.

What irks me is that he never gave any acknowledgement to free-minds.org for the material he has built & the podcasts he is posting on YouTube, was he ever a member of free-minds, & split?

Latest that annoyed me was his translation of munafiqeen, he translates it as waverers, this is my response verbatim to him in the podcast where it occurred:

I am slowly going through your podcasts and am enjoying it, The God Protocol need to relisten to the Moses part. In here just a small comment, why do you translate munafiqeen as waverers, as a native speaker of Arabic I have always known it is hypocrites, & they are pretty much badly chastised by Allah who says that they will be confined to the lowest rung of hell “al daraqi al asfali min alnar.”
OK I listened until the end, in Arabic waverer is mudhabdhab, not munafiq, a synonym for waverer in English is undecided, in French waverer translates as indecis, which is again undecided.
Hypocrite is much worse, there is a darkness in the hypocrite, the undecided could be reasoned with & maybe brought back, waverer is not as evil as hypocrite.
So to me munafiq clearly translates as hypocrite, I can even cite a Jewish woman thinker who defined the hypocrite beautifully -
Hannah Arendt “As witnesses not of our intentions but of our conduct, we can be true or false, and the hypocrite's crime is that he bears false witness against himself. What makes it so plausible to assume that hypocrisy is the vice of vices is that integrity can indeed exist under the cover of all other vices except this one. Only crime and the criminal, it is true, confront us with the perplexity of radical evil; but only the hypocrite is really rotten to the core.”
A good translation for hypocrite & munafiq is also deceiver.
Finally, I have decided to start a thread on Free-Minds.org as an OpEd to your claims in your podcast - it's here - https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611283.0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd0ITJk1uVc

Another podcast is "The God Protocol" where he extracts an oft repeating pattern of God's Sunna/Practice which I found interesting, still digesting it, I must admit he puts a lot of efforts in his work, & I do not wish to rubbish it, as we say in French "la critique est aisee, mais l'art est difficile" criticism is easy but craftsmanship takes real effort...

I am as I said in an earlier post a native Arabic speaker & even though I seldom use Arabic now but to read Qur'an, my Arabic is one of the closest to Quranic Arabic (Sahraoui Arabic from the south of Algeria, I was born in Biskra) as I am from an area where Arabic tribes some led by Sidi M'hamed Al Moussa & was reared by a nanny who speaks it.

So when I read Qur'an against translations I have a "sixth" sense that tells me if the translation makes sense or not, of course there are words I do not know, but even Google translate translates waverer as undecided in English & undecis in French, not hypocrite.

Munafiq is destined to Hell in very harsh terms in Qur'an, translating it as waverer is to me an injustice on people who are undecided & who could be seduced back into Submission to Allah (in Qur'an mu'alafati qulubuhum).

I need to re-listen to the Moses section of The God Protocol, but overall he got right that aspect to Allah's pattern towards communities He raises Messengers in.

More later - I am starting this thread as an OpEd - not always against, bar some salient issues that are controversial even here, like Flat Earth & Salat as being a physical ritual vs. an abstract concept Sam Gerrans describes I believe erroneously as duty.
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth.

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5624
  • Karma +7/-2
Re: Sam Gerrans
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2021, 11:52:14 AM »
The Arabic word "Munafiq! is absolutely clear in meaning whatever the language one uses, because there are many contexts in which  "Munafiq " is used in Qoran:. However the meaning can only be :

"Munafiq" = Hypocrite or synonym words Dissembler and Pretender.
Similar words of Hypocrite are  not  commonly used in daily talk like as "Hypocrites"

Qoran makes it clear when ,in the majority of the verses, talks about the munafiqun ('hypocrites', Arabic: منافقون‎, singular منافق munāfiq).
They were a group  of outward Muslims who were secretly unsympathetic to the cause of Muslims and actively sought to undermine the Muslim community.

They were not wavering or undecided, they  were pretending with full knowledge to be Muslims and working underneath with evil schemes to bring Islam and the believers down..

What else can we call this? Evil schemers? Traitors? ...OK the word Hypocrite describes all these words perfectly.

GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

theNabster

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1328
  • Karma +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sam Gerrans
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2021, 12:59:05 PM »
Thanks, that's what I believe as well.
We will see how Sam Gerrans responds.
He usually just ignores criticism & plods along with his own views & interpretations,.
He says he uses his own hermeneutics heuristics method to define words in Qur'an based on what free-minds.org founders have always advocated to use Qur'an to define Qur'an, but for some words like salat, zaqat, & this one munafiqun, it does not convince me.

What bothers me is that he has many followers & for the Flat Earth business I had an exchange with one of them on Twitter who ended up blocking me.

Also using the excuse that traditionalists translate some words in a certain way is not license to invalidate their translations, however one disagrees with them for other aspects such as their use of Hadiths, it's as if it becomes a game of putting all ills on traditionalists & so say or do the opposite of what they say or do in any instance.

It is not always that black & white, & Qur'an was revealed in Arabic, not in English or Farsi, so when we start we start from the language, then if Qur'an clearly contradicts the usual meaning of the word, we look at forensics of how Qur'an uses the word, but for munafiq it was always in cases of people who were scheming in hiding & showing different versions of themselves depending on their audience, with the underlying motif of undermining God's Word Qur'an, they were with the unbelievers but presented themselves to Believers as being Believers, that's to me being two faced, which defines well in English a hypocrite, & in Arabic a munafiq.

The Arabic word "Munafiq! is absolutely clear in meaning whatever the language one uses, because there are many contexts in which  "Munafiq " is used in Qoran:. However the meaning can only be :

"Munafiq" = Hypocrite or synonym words Dissembler and Pretender.
Similar words of Hypocrite are  not  commonly used in daily talk like as "Hypocrites"

Qoran makes it clear when ,in the majority of the verses, talks about the munafiqun ('hypocrites', Arabic: منافقون‎, singular منافق munāfiq).
They were a group  of outward Muslims who were secretly unsympathetic to the cause of Muslims and actively sought to undermine the Muslim community.

They were not wavering or undecided, they  were pretending with full knowledge to be Muslims and working underneath with evil schemes to bring Islam and the believers down..

What else can we call this? Evil schemers? Traitors? ...OK the word Hypocrite describes all these words perfectly.

GOD bless.
Peace.
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth.

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5624
  • Karma +7/-2
Re: Sam Gerrans
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2021, 11:46:40 AM »
Peace brother.
 The definition in Qoran leaves no doubt who Munafiq is!
Qoran states that there are 3 categories of people. Believers, non believers and Munafiqeen..

Two types of Munafiqeen: 
Those who do it by creed, their heart are refusing  inside and pretend. This is worse than not believing . It is dishonesty. They are doing it to gain some status from the people/community.
Those who do it by  evil deeds as well as creed. They scheme and secretly plot to undermine and hurt  the believers. An inside job as one calls it.

GOD s description in Qoran is clear and accurate and never means undecided or waverer.

 The Hypocrites
Then there are those who say, "We believe in God and the Last Day," while they are not believers.
وَمِنَ النّاسِ مَن يَقولُ ءامَنّا بِاللَّهِ وَبِاليَومِ الـٔاخِرِ وَما هُم بِمُؤمِنينَ
In trying to deceive God and those who believe, they only deceive themselves without perceiving.
يُخٰدِعونَ اللَّهَ وَالَّذينَ ءامَنوا وَما يَخدَعونَ إِلّا أَنفُسَهُم وَما يَشعُرونَ
In their minds there is a disease. Consequently, God augments their disease. They have incurred a painful retribution for their lying.
فى قُلوبِهِم مَرَضٌ فَزادَهُمُ اللَّهُ مَرَضًا وَلَهُم عَذابٌ أَليمٌ بِما كانوا يَكذِبونَ
When they are told, "Do not commit evil," they say, "But we are righteous!"
وَإِذا قيلَ لَهُم لا تُفسِدوا فِى الأَرضِ قالوا إِنَّما نَحنُ مُصلِحونَ
In fact, they are evildoers, but they do not perceive.
أَلا إِنَّهُم هُمُ المُفسِدونَ وَلٰكِن لا يَشعُرونَ
When they are told, "Believe like the people who believed," they say, "Shall we believe like the fools who believed?" In fact, it is they who are fools, but they do not know.
وَإِذا قيلَ لَهُم ءامِنوا كَما ءامَنَ النّاسُ قالوا أَنُؤمِنُ كَما ءامَنَ السُّفَهاءُ أَلا إِنَّهُم هُمُ السُّفَهاءُ وَلٰكِن لا يَعلَمونَ
When they meet the believers, they say, "We believe," but when alone with their devils, they say, "We are with you; we were only mocking."
وَإِذا لَقُوا الَّذينَ ءامَنوا قالوا ءامَنّا وَإِذا خَلَوا إِلىٰ شَيٰطينِهِم قالوا إِنّا مَعَكُم إِنَّما نَحنُ مُستَهزِءونَ
God mocks them, and leads them on in their transgressions, blundering.
اللَّهُ يَستَهزِئُ بِهِم وَيَمُدُّهُم فى طُغيٰنِهِم يَعمَهونَ
It is they who bought the straying, at the expense of guidance. Such trade never prospers, nor do they receive any guidance.
أُولٰئِكَ الَّذينَ اشتَرَوُا الضَّلٰلَةَ بِالهُدىٰ فَما رَبِحَت تِجٰرَتُهُم وَما كانوا مُهتَدينَ
Their example is like those who start a fire, then, as it begins to shed light around them, God takes away their light, leaving them in darkness, unable to see.
مَثَلُهُم كَمَثَلِ الَّذِى استَوقَدَ نارًا فَلَمّا أَضاءَت ما حَولَهُ ذَهَبَ اللَّهُ بِنورِهِم وَتَرَكَهُم فى ظُلُمٰتٍ لا يُبصِرونَ
Deaf, dumb, and blind; they fail to return.
صُمٌّ بُكمٌ عُمىٌ فَهُم لا يَرجِعونَ

These are people with a made up mind , no doubt about it.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

theNabster

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1328
  • Karma +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sam Gerrans
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2021, 12:29:30 PM »
Thank you brother, I understand why you chose for yourself the moniker "good logic" your logic is irreproachably excellent.

Sad we get articulate people to come forward & make podcasts like Sam Gerrans is doing, we really are in need of people who challenge wrong info about Qur'an & bad translations, it should have been the duty of Arabs in whose language Qur'an was revealed to come forward & explain it to non Arabic speakers.

Instead most Arabs chose to champion traditions, hadiths & seera which Qur'an & obviously Allah never gave the green light to replace Qur'an by them.
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth.

reel

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1874
  • Karma +2/-1
  • Gender: Female
Re: Sam Gerrans
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2021, 08:23:26 PM »
Don't pay him any attention. I have not found anyone who doesn't doubt his agenda. Privately, most of us discussed him and came to conclusion he isn’t one of us.

His fans always turn out to be trolls. All faced bans at the reddit sub. I am thankful to Quranic people’s distinct personality. Looks like our differing views have no impact on it. Hence, it is too easy for us to catch his trolls red handed. I’m not gonna reveal details  ;D

Ignore the guy. We are safe from his brainwashing.


"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

theNabster

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1328
  • Karma +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sam Gerrans
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2021, 11:08:11 AM »
Peace reel,

I am very gullible,
if it were not for Allah's Grace & Qur'an I would be at a loss,
I am fortunate to have learnt Arabic from an old woman (my nanny) of the south of Algeria who spoke pure Arabic of the Arab nomads,
when I read a translation & its corresponding translation side by side my Arabic tells me straight away if it makes sense,
waverer for hypocrite/munafiq is enough for me to disregard Sam Gerrans as an idiot,
the term munafiq is a grave term that consigns its wearer if he/she does not repent to the deepest fiercest part of Hell even below the unbeliever & the idolater,
translating munafiq as waverer makes it a mockery & an insult to Allah & His Qur'an.
/bipolar rant over> :tempt:
May Allah protect us from being in the rank of munafiqeen/hypocrites.
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth.

theNabster

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1328
  • Karma +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sam Gerrans
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2021, 11:25:22 AM »
Salam -
This is a @Twitter feed I just posted on Sam Gerrans -

Public statement I have lost interest in @SamGerrans as he propagates falsehood on @YouTube mistranslating Qur'an, thus leading Believers astray, he has some interesting insights, but says very dangerous things God warns against, based on his own imagination. - @meNabster

Sam Gerrans translated word munafiq which represents a label designing very flawed characters God stridently warned against & promised the worst torments in Hell, translated it as waverer, this is enough for me to disregard what Sam Gerrans writes/says, this is fitna/perversion.

Sam Gerrans also pushes the notion that the Earth is Flat, which is another reason I cannot take him seriously. May Allah guide Him & Help Him against this state of ignorance & stop Him from propagating falsehood claiming it is truth.
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth.

tlihawa

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 150
  • Karma +1/-0
Re: Sam Gerrans
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2021, 08:48:11 PM »
Salaam theNabster,
The first thing I make sure before watching a YouTube channel that discusses Al Quran or spiritual matters is whether there is a request for donations to support channel owners.

If yes, I just simply close the browser since there are clear instruction from God,

36:21  Follow those who do not ask you for any wage/payment, and they are guided.

34:47   Say: "I have not asked you for any wage/payment; for it will be your own. My wage is from God, and He is Witness over all things."

I am not interested in following people who seek material gain from religious preaching. They even should demonetize their Youtube channel.

Prophet Nuh, Hud, Luth, Saleh, & Syuaib, also said the same thing in:

26:109,127,145,164,180   
"And I do not ask you for any wage, for my reward is upon the Lord of the worlds."

So how do the preacher make money? They should go for professional work just like prophet Musa did, not selling their knowledge of God's scriptures..

28:26   One of the two women said: "O my father, hire him (Musa). For the best to be hired is one who is strong and honest."

28:27   He said: "I wish you to marry one of my two daughters, on condition that you work for me through eight pilgrimage periods; if you complete them to ten, it will be voluntary on your part. I do not wish to make this matter too difficult for you. You will find me, God willing, of the righteous."


Finally, my suggestion is do not make any claim or hoping to get credit in any material/article/opinion/thoughts that's already been shared in Internet including free-minds since God is the One who guided us, all praises be to Him.

Peace

theNabster

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1328
  • Karma +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sam Gerrans
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2021, 05:59:07 PM »
Peace tlihawa bro -

To be fair to Sam Gerrans he does not use advertising to get revenue on YouTube, also does not have in your face please asking for donations, his translation of the Qur'an is free of charge, only the paper version is to be paid for if one wants it in physical form, so pretty much like free-minds.org does.

What worries me is his level of proficiency in Arabic, he claims to use a state of the art heuristics hermeneutics method to find the meaning of words, but just one example of a very important label in Qur'an of a category of people Allah strongly warned against, the munafiqeen, he translates as waverers, to me his method is lacking accuracy if it does so & by this token he has condemned all people who are undecisive to the lowest rung of Hell "daraki al aslfali mina alnar" this is not good practice & a big sin to pervert the meaning of words of Qur'an in this way.

There are other things like Salat translated as duty & Zakat as purity, making them abstract concepts whereas Qur'an gives them practical meanings, we might disagree on the complete details but removing from them their tangibility that they are obligations that are quantified, not just concepts in the air is frankly dangerous & makes a mockery of Qur'an.
41:53 We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Qur'an) is the truth.