Author Topic: Evolution  (Read 1905 times)

Neptin

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2021, 11:11:20 PM »
Peace

I'll just share a couple of verses and what I think about them.

55:14
He created man of clay like the potter's.


The reference to pottery here gives an impression the clay was molded into Adam's figure.

I also see there is disagreement on 15:26 translation.

Word for word translation: And Verily We created man from/of salsalin from/of hama-in masnunin.

Note the transliterated words; salsalin, hama-in, masnunin. Salsalin is clear, dried & sounding clay like pottery(55:4) and hama-in is clear too, mud - mix of water/soil(clay).

And then we come to masnunin, all kinds of translations; altered, molded, fashioned, aged, transmuted. Which is right? What does masnunin mean?

OK, I'll just consult Edward Lane's Arabic English dictionary.

Quote
مَسْنُونٌ [Bitten with the teeth: whence, app., what next follows]. You say أَرْضٌ مَسْنُونَــةٌ and ↓ سَنِينٌ meaning Land of which the herbage has been eaten.

(L, K.) B2: Sharpened, or whetted, or made sharp-pointed, and polished; as also ↓ سَنِينٌ; (M, L, Kwink applied to a knife (K) or thing [of any kind].

(M, L.) Made smooth. (S, L.) Formed, fashioned, or shaped. (S, M, L.) Made long. (L.) You say وَجْهٌ مَسْنُونٌ (assumed tropicalsmiley A face in which is length, without breadth; (مَخْروُطٌwink smooth and even; or smooth and long; or long, and not high in the ball; or soft, tender, thin, and even; as though the flesh were ground (سُنَّ [like as a thing is ground in sharpening and polishing]) from it. (M, L.) And رَجُلٌ مَسْنُونُ الوَجْهِ (assumed tropicalsmiley A man beautiful and smooth in the face: (Lh, M, L, Ksmiley or a man in whose nose and face is length: (S, L, Ksmiley or beautiful and long in the face.
http://lisaan.net/search/%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%86%D9%88%D9%86?cat=50

Going by these, it is more likely that the right translation of "masnunin" is mechanically manipulated mud(clay + water), which may be akin to molding.


In fact, here is further insight from Qur'an.

15:28-29: And when your Lord said to the Angels, Indeed I will create a man of clay, from black mud altered. So, when I have fashioned him and breath into him of my spirit, then fall down to him prostrating.

5:110: Oh Jesus, remember my favor upon you .... when I strengthened you with the spirit .... when you made from clay like the shape of bird by My permission, then you breath into it and it became a bird by My permission.


Here, there seem to be parallel between Jesus creating a bird from molded clay, and God's creation of Adam from clay.

Of course, I might be wrong. But the impression I get from the Qur'an is that wet clay was molded into Adam's statue, then God bestowed life upon the statue and it became man.
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reel

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2021, 12:58:10 PM »
peace, what does being مسلمون muslimuna/self-effacing have to do with any theory that billion year old bacteria and/or seaweed et al still around today turned into humans or how a tiny speck has all the information i.e. "the program" to grow into a human with a trillion cells, divide/copy, replicate/children, error correcting code, and delete/die etc., thousand other functions?

Wait, have you not experienced the harmony of things? When we choose to be peaceful in God's way literally everything suddenly starts to come alive. How about the fact that everything prostrates to God?

He can trigger environmental changes and also stop them. Then of course, biologists need to stop ignoring junk dna. God is not bound by the limitation they impose on themselves. As I said earliar, biology is not the only thing at work.

With verses on evolution, God gives us the message that we should be civilized. We can't go around interpreting his laws in a way that they cause oppression. Also it would be weird to not see that each human body is growing up.

4:1 ىاىها O you الناس the people اتقوا heeds ye of ربكم lord yours الذى the one خلقكم creation you من from نفس soul وحده single وخلق and creation منها from it زوجها spouse its وبث and disperse منهما from them dual رجلا menfolk of كثىرا much of ونسا and womenfolk واتقوا and heeds ye of الله the god الذى the one تسالون thou asking به in/with it والارحم and the wombs/relatives ان indeed الله the god كان be علىكم upon you رقىبا watchful of

39:6 خلقكم creation you من from نفس soul وحده single ثم furthermore جعل made منها from it زوجها spouse its وانزل and descends لكم for you من of الانعم l-anami/the cattle (embryonic stem cells?) ثمنىه octet (group of eight) ازوج spouses (4 x 2 pairs) ىخلقكم created you فى in بطون interior body امهتكم mothers yours خلقا creation of من from بعد after خلق creation فى in ظلمت darkness ثلث three ذلكم such yours الله the god ربكم lord yours له to him الملك the sovereignty لا not اله deity الا except هو he فانى so how تصرفون thou turning


Gotthelf Bergstrasse Archive: Cairo, National Library: qāf 47
606-652, CE (95.4%) [¹⁴C-dating from ms.or.fol. 4313]
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/1?handschrift=73



London, British Library: Or. 2165 before 750 CE - Parchment
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/39/vers/6?handschrift=12



God doesn't change his sunnah. He forbids incest.

As we all know, some verses are still not fully understood by us.
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Aclon

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2021, 10:30:12 PM »
Peace

I'll just share a couple of verses and what I think about them.

55:14
He created man of clay like the potter's.


The reference to pottery here gives an impression the clay was molded into Adam's figure.

I also see there is disagreement on 15:26 translation.

Word for word translation: And Verily We created man from/of salsalin from/of hama-in masnunin.

Note the transliterated words; salsalin, hama-in, masnunin. Salsalin is clear, dried & sounding clay like pottery(55:4) and hama-in is clear too, mud - mix of water/soil(clay).

And then we come to masnunin, all kinds of translations; altered, molded, fashioned, aged, transmuted. Which is right? What does masnunin mean?

OK, I'll just consult Edward Lane's Arabic English dictionary.
http://lisaan.net/search/%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%86%D9%88%D9%86?cat=50

Going by these, it is more likely that the right translation of "masnunin" is mechanically manipulated mud(clay + water), which may be akin to molding.


In fact, here is further insight from Qur'an.

15:28-29: And when your Lord said to the Angels, Indeed I will create a man of clay, from black mud altered. So, when I have fashioned him and breath into him of my spirit, then fall down to him prostrating.

5:110: Oh Jesus, remember my favor upon you .... when I strengthened you with the spirit .... when you made from clay like the shape of bird by My permission, then you breath into it and it became a bird by My permission.


Here, there seem to be parallel between Jesus creating a bird from molded clay, and God's creation of Adam from clay.

Of course, I might be wrong. But the impression I get from the Qur'an is that wet clay was molded into Adam's statue, then God bestowed life upon the statue and it became man.
do you mean molded like this

of course we should be careful about interpretation of adam, since it can be metaphorical.
image source:https://www.intechopen.com/books/clay-minerals-in-nature-their-characterization-modification-and-application/role-of-clay-minerals-in-chemical-evolution-and-the-origin-of-life

With verses on evolution, God gives us the message that we should be civilized. We can't go around interpreting his laws in a way that they cause oppression. Also it would be weird to not see that each human body is growing up.

and also kudos to ms. reel for the insight. we shouldn't blindly think everything is lie and interpret gods law with limited understanding about the world he created. let us be rasionalize first and think this clearly with available evidence we got.

Neptin

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2021, 03:43:19 AM »
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Noon waalqalami

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2021, 09:02:44 AM »
God doesn't change his sunnah. He forbids incest.

As we all know, some verses are still not fully understood by us.

peace, there were others including jinn only need two couples ...

adam & spouse ....... ?? & spouse
s1 ....... d1 ....... ....... s2 ....... d2
| ........ |---> d3 s3 <--- | ....... |
|------------> s4 d4 <----------- |

s1 marries d2
s2 marries d1

s3 marries d4 1st cousin uncle's daughter
s4 marries d3 1st cousin aunt's daughter

S4 ....... d4 ....... ....... s3 ....... d4
| ........ |---> d5 s5 <--- | ....... |
|------------> s6 d6 <----------- |


7:11 ولقد and surely خلقنكم creation we you (pl.) ثم furthermore صورنكم fashion we you (pl.)
 ثم furthermore قلنا said we of للملىكه to the controllers (angels) …

7:24 قال said اهبطوا inclines (leaves) ye of بعضكم some you (pl.) لبعض to other/s عدو enemy ولكم and for you فى in الارض the land مستقر designation ومتاع and wherewithal الى to حىن period

18:50 واذ and when قلنا said we of للملىكه to the controllers اسجدوا prostrates they of لادم to Adam فسجدوا so prostrate they of الا except ابلىس Iblis كان be/was من of الجن the jinn ففسق so disobedient عن about امر directive ربه lord his افتتخذونه indeed so thou take him وذرىته and progeny his اولىا allies من from (besides) دونى other than me وهم and/while they لكم for you عدو enemy بىس wretched للظلمىن for the wrongdoers بدلا exchange of

114:6 من from الجنه the jinn kind والناس and the people