Author Topic: How can Ismail be a Prophet & did Isa receive new script or he taught just torah  (Read 566 times)

Sania Haque

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Okay so we all agree that Prophets bring new scriptures and messengers come to revive the message of the scriptures and All Prophets are messengers but not all messengers are Prophet; or do yall have different understanding of that ? I came to a certain verse :

And mention in the Book O Prophet, the story of Ishmael. He was truly a man of his word, and was a messenger and a prophet. Verse 19:54.

Does that mean Ismail received his own scripture or does that mean Quran uses the word messenger and Prophet interchangeably Because as far as my knowledge goes Ismael followed the religion of his father, Ibrahim

Also i was discussing Quran with one of my friends and she believes that Isa as was just a messenger and he was also a jew. He didn't give any new teachings or law. He came to revive the teachings of torah. Unlike Prophet Muhammad who changed some laws as revealed by Allah ( for example punishment of adultery changed from stoning to death to 100 lashes ) Isa as brought no changes. He preached only torah. She believes Isa had no scripture, the word gospel refers to his revelations, which all messengers get and Gospel was not his book of new laws and new rules, it was his revelations and revivals of the Torah.

Anoushirvan

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Salam,

I used to believe there was a difference between messenger and prophet in Qur'an but now I believe both mean more or less the same i Qur'an, and more importantly both words belong to the same lexical field, that of making a message from God known to people.

For example we have this verse

9.61  وَمِنْهُمُ الَّذِينَ يُؤْذُونَ النَّبِيَّ وَيَقُولُونَ هُوَ أُذُنٌ ۚ قُلْ أُذُنُ خَيْرٍ لَكُمْ يُؤْمِنُ بِاللَّهِ وَيُؤْمِنُ لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَرَحْمَةٌ لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مِنْكُمْ ۚ وَالَّذِينَ يُؤْذُونَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ
9.61  And among them are those who insult the Prophet, and say, “He is all ears.” Say, “He listens for your own good. He believes in God, and trusts the believers, and is mercy for those of you who believe.” Those who insult the Messenger of God will have a painful penalty.


So in a single verse, the same person that is the object of this verse is called "the Prophet" at the beginning and "the Messenger" at the end.

It is not correct to say that Isa according to Qur'an didn't change the laws:

3.50  وَمُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيَّ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَلِأُحِلَّ لَكُمْ بَعْضَ الَّذِي حُرِّمَ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ وَجِئْتُكُمْ بِآيَةٍ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ فَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُونِ
3.50  “And verifying what lies before me of the Torah, and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; so fear God, and obey me.”


If, according to Qur'an, Isa made lawful some of what was forbidden, then he changed the law, maybe not so much, but from religious perspective, this is still huge, because we are talking of the laws of God.

Now, if we speak of Jesus according to the Christian canonical Gospels, then this is more complicated and in fact an early Christian writing, the Epistle of Barnabas (not to be confused with the Gospel of Barnabas, a fake that was written in Middle Age but very popular among Muslims) shows that early Christians sought to make a new interpretations of Torah, hence new application of the law, while still retaining the same text.
It is similar to Qur'an alone movement which, for example, wants to abolish the cutting of the thief hand by reading again verse 5.38 but without changing the textual command.

ade_cool

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Okay so we all agree that Prophets bring new scriptures and messengers come to revive the message of the scriptures and All Prophets are messengers but not all messengers are Prophet; or do yall have different understanding of that ? I came to a certain verse :

And mention in the Book O Prophet, the story of Ishmael. He was truly a man of his word, and was a messenger and a prophet. Verse 19:54.

Regarding a nabi brings a new scripture, let's ponder on the following verses

[19:49] So when he abandoned them and what they served besides God, We granted him Isaac and Jacob, and each of them We made a  prophet.


Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob each has scripture?

[19:53] And We granted him from Our mercy his brother Aaron as a prophet.

Aaron and Moses each has scripture?

Quote
Does that mean Ismail received his own scripture or does that mean Quran uses the word messenger and Prophet interchangeably Because as far as my knowledge goes Ismael followed the religion of his father, Ibrahim

Regarding interchangeability of the words rasul and nabi, let's ponder the following verse:

[22:52] And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, without having the devil interfere with his wishes. God then duplicates  what the devil has cast, and God secures His revelations. And  God is Knower, Wise.

Since in the same verse, the two words are used, I believe the words must have different signification.

The very same person can be mentioned as nabi and also as rasul depending on the signification that is being highlighted.

Quote
Also i was discussing Quran with one of my friends and she believes that Isa as was just a messenger and he was also a jew. He didn't give any new teachings or law. He came to revive the teachings of torah. Unlike Prophet Muhammad who changed some laws as revealed by Allah ( for example punishment of adultery changed from stoning to death to 100 lashes ) Isa as brought no changes. He preached only torah. She believes Isa had no scripture, the word gospel refers to his revelations, which all messengers get and Gospel was not his book of new laws and new rules, it was his revelations and revivals of the Torah.

Some verses about Isa

[19:30] He said: “I am a servant of God, He has given me the Book and made me a prophet.”

[5:46] And We sent in their footsteps Jesus, son of Mary, affirming what was between his hands of the Torah. And We gave him the Gospel, in it is a guidance and a light, and affirming what was between his hands of the Torah, and a guidance and a lesson for the  righteous.

[3:47] She said: “My Lord, how can I have a son when no mortal has been with me?” He said: “It is thus that God creates what He  wills, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it ‘Be,’ and  it is.”
[3:48] And He teaches him the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel.
[3:49] And as a messenger to the Children of Israel: “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; that I create for you from clay the  form of a bird, then I blow into it and it becomes a bird with the  permission of God, and I heal the blind and the lepers, and give  life to the dead with the permission of God, and I prophesize for  you what you shall eat and what to store in your homes. In that is  a sign for you if you are believers.”
[3:50] “And affirming what is between my hands of the Torah, and to make permissible some of that which was made forbidden to you;  and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so be aware  of God and obey me.”

Sania Haque

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Both God didn't gave Isa gospel ? Gospel wasn't written by Jesus ? It was written by his followers? Even Christians donot believe gospel was written by Jesus

shukri

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Okay so we all agree that Prophets bring new scriptures and messengers come to revive the message of the scriptures and All Prophets are messengers but not all messengers are Prophet; or do yall have different understanding of that ? I came to a certain verse :

And mention in the Book O Prophet, the story of Ishmael. He was truly a man of his word, and was a messenger and a prophet. Verse 19:54.

Does that mean Ismail received his own scripture or does that mean Quran uses the word messenger and Prophet interchangeably Because as far as my knowledge goes Ismael followed the religion of his father, Ibrahim

Just my 2-cents input:

(1) I think the best explanation on this issues (the difference between prophet and messenger) is given in this link:
https://www.quran-islam.org/articles/prophet_and_messenger_(P1161).html

(2) Only the controversial verse quoted by the author is ...
57:25 We have sent Our messengers with the clear proofs, and We brought down with them the Scripture and the balance so that the people may uphold justice.

Which at a glance seems that the messengers also have their own scripture. But this misconception is explained in detail by the author under section of "The verdict of 57:25" at the near-end of the article.

(3) I read his explanation in "The verdict of 57:25" and I agree with him on point 1&2 as my codes seem supporting his reasoning.
 
Below is my Codes:
(Code 1) ... The connection of verse 57:25 and verse 19:51
19:51 Mention in the scripture Moses. He was devoted, and he was a messenger prophet (First word of "a messenger prophet  رَسولًا نَبِيًّا" mentioned in the quran)
57:25 We have sent Our messengers with the clear proofs, and We brought down with them the Scripture and the balance so that the people may uphold justice.
--> (57+25) + (19+51 ) = 152 = 8 x 19
Position 8 (Issues)
Level 2 (Related to righteousness)

OR
--> (25) + (51) = 76 = 4 x 19 ... (Only verse's number is add up)
Position 4 (Act of Righteousness)
Level 2 (Related to righteousness)
(Indication: The word "messengers" in verse 57:25 is interrelated to words "a messenger prophet رَسولًا نَبِيًّا" in verse 19:51)

(Code 2) ... The hidden words for wording "messengers (رسل)" in verse 57:25
57:25 We have sent Our messengers (?) with the clear proofs, and We brought down with them the Scripture and the balance so that the people may uphold justice.
291 64 ... are gv for "Messengers Prophets" رَسلًا أنبياء
--> 29164 5725 = 15349775 x 19
Position 5 (Gift)
Level 7 (Disbelievers)
(Indication: The word "messengers" in verse 57:25 is meant for "Messengers Prophets")

Note:
1) Method used ... https://al-muzzammil.com/relevance_miracle/19_based_calc.html
2) For this method, the gv value for hamza (ء) in any form is zero in value and the gv for "ة" is 405 (equal to "ت + ه").

Thank you.

jkhan

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Just my 2-cents input:

(1) I think the best explanation on this issues (the difference between prophet and messenger) is given in this link:
https://www.quran-islam.org/articles/prophet_and_messenger_(P1161).html

(2) Only the controversial verse quoted by the author is ...
57:25 We have sent Our messengers with the clear proofs, and We brought down with them the Scripture and the balance so that the people may uphold justice.

Which at a glance seems that the messengers also have their own scripture. But this misconception is explained in detail by the author under section of "The verdict of 57:25" at the near-end of the article.

(3) I read his explanation in "The verdict of 57:25" and I agree with him on point 1&2 as my codes seem supporting his reasoning.
 
Below is my Codes:
(Code 1) ... The connection of verse 57:25 and verse 19:51
19:51 Mention in the scripture Moses. He was devoted, and he was a messenger prophet (First word of "a messenger prophet  رَسولًا نَبِيًّا" mentioned in the quran)
57:25 We have sent Our messengers with the clear proofs, and We brought down with them the Scripture and the balance so that the people may uphold justice.
--> (57+25) + (19+51 ) = 152 = 8 x 19
Position 8 (Issues)
Level 2 (Related to righteousness)

OR
--> (25) + (51) = 76 = 4 x 19 ... (Only verse's number is add up)
Position 4 (Act of Righteousness)
Level 2 (Related to righteousness)
(Indication: The word "messengers" in verse 57:25 is interrelated to words "a messenger prophet رَسولًا نَبِيًّا" in verse 19:51)

(Code 2) ... The hidden words for wording "messengers (رسل)" in verse 57:25
57:25 We have sent Our messengers (?) with the clear proofs, and We brought down with them the Scripture and the balance so that the people may uphold justice.
291 64 ... are gv for "Messengers Prophets" رَسلًا أنبياء
--> 29164 5725 = 15349775 x 19
Position 5 (Gift)
Level 7 (Disbelievers)
(Indication: The word "messengers" in verse 57:25 is meant for "Messengers Prophets")

Note:
1) Method used ... https://al-muzzammil.com/relevance_miracle/19_based_calc.html
2) For this method, the gv value for hamza (ء) in any form is zero in value and the gv for "ة" is 405 (equal to "ت + ه").

Thank you.

Dear Brother Shukri...

I think the author there got the matter slightly wrong just to support his inability to grasp it.. He is absolutely right to claim all prophets are messengers and not all messengers are prophets..

The correct way... I don't say here My understanding.. But I say correct way to understand it like this..

No mere messengers if not prophet will bring a scripture.. Not under any circumstance.. That's pretty clear with Quran.. Only prophets do bring scripture.. Not necessarily a book all for one prophet.. Many prophets may hold the same book.. But verses would have come to each of them..
For example.. Musa and Harun both would have received verses and chapters on their own.. When musa received verses same verse Harun  won't receive.. Vice versa.. So prophets are part and parcel of scriptures.. Some prophets may receive scripture of their own.. Example Muhamed...

57:25 never says messengers (Human) bring scriptures...
 57:25 is totally about Malaika Messengers...
"Anzalna  Ma'ahum" could only be meant to angel messengers who came down with  scriptures and balance...

Withouy being a prophet no messenger will. Ever bring a new scripture  or verses or chapters for existing scripture.. That's totally agaisnt Quran's basic principle of prophets...prophets are assigned to receive scripture..not mere messengers...
So.. Every Prophet is a messenger literally and all of them received scriptures if not of their own but at least sharing...
Best example is Torah.. It is a complete book to many a isrelete prophets...

I don't see any other truth other this within Quran..

If anyone disagree with me, most welcome to give your thought to substantiate ..

shukri

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Dear Brother Shukri...

57:25 is totally about Malaika Messengers...
"Anzalna  Ma'ahum" could only be meant to angel messengers who came down with  scriptures and balance...

Salam bro jkhan!

(1) I merely used the Al-Muzzammil method to evaluate the interpretation of verse 57:25 and I did have three codes to confirm it.
(2) For your interpretation, if I add gv for malaika (angel) as a "missing word" in verse 57:25 ...

57:25 We have sent Our (malaika?) messengers with the clear proofs, and We brought down with them the Scripture and the balance so that the people may uphold justice.
91 ... gv for "angel" ملاك
--> 91 5725 (No Code found whether we concatenate or add-up).

(3) So, based on the Al-Muzzammil method your interpretation of "(malaika) messengers" is not valid!
(4) You are free to give your interpretation and indeed everyone is entitled to do so.

Thanks.