Author Topic: WHY DO SECTARIANS ASK ME TO EXPLAIN QIRAAT?  (Read 1913 times)

Sania Haque

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Re: WHY DO SECTARIANS ASK ME TO EXPLAIN QIRAAT?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2020, 03:21:38 AM »
Holy cows, okay yall now I am understanding the question of hadithians. Okay so see my main confusion was why the hadithmongers always asked us the question to explain Qiraat and obviously I didn't get the question because why the heck do we need to explain Qiraat. If the message of all Qiraat are same then why do we need to explain Qot right ?  As i said i had no idea was Qiraat is, I only got to know it from an argument on YouTube ( i didn't start it of course but I needed to support my submitter brother, hadithmongers were being major pain in the brain  ). Only here I got to know the names of two of them : Hafs and Warsh. Well after not finding this question in general issue ( yes i am dumb, i freaking posted it in women's issue smh ) i forgot about it. Well I came here to. Ask some women related question and guess what I saw ? A question about qiraat on women's issue... Yikes kill me 🙃. I am diverting from the topic so anyways, I went through the all of the answers and still didn't understand a thing and then I did a google search Because now i wanted to see how are hadiths and qiraat related. Now after 5 minutes everything is making sense. So there's this hadith which explained everything now,.

I heard Hishām ibn Ḥakīm reciting Sūrah Al-Furqān during the lifetime of Allah's messenger. I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which the Prophet had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I was able to contain myself, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, “Who taught you this Sūrah which I heard you reciting?” He replied, “The Prophet taught it to me.” I said, “You are wrong, for the Prophet has taught it to me in a different way from yours.”

So I took him to Allah’s Messenger and said “O Messenger of Allah, I heard this individual reciting Sūrah Al-Furqān in a way that you did not teach me, and you have taught me Sūrah Al-Furqān.”

The Prophet said, “O Hishām, recite!” So he recited in the same way as I heard him recite it before. On that Allah's Messenger ﷺ said, “It was revealed to be recited in this way.” Then Allah's Messenger ﷺ said, “Recite, O ʿUmar!” So I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Messenger ﷺ then said, “It was revealed to be recited in this way.” Allah’s Apostle added, “This Qur’an has been revealed to be recited in seven different aḥruf, so recite it whichever way is easier for you.”

So basically hadithians believe that since Quran doesn't mention about Qiraat and there is a hadith which mentions the 7 huruf  and we also have different qiraat therefore it proves the authenticity of hadiths. Wow. My mind just went haywire. And now i do understand their argument and now I am also understanding all of your answers. So basically  some amazing person here brought out the old manuscript of Quran *hugs*

Sania Haque

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Re: WHY DO SECTARIANS ASK ME TO EXPLAIN QIRAAT?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2020, 03:22:47 AM »
slight correction it's a word although wrong address (see context) to feminine crowd.

توعدن Arabic Verb تُوعَدْنَ (tūʿadna) (form I)
second-person feminine plural non-past passive indicative of وَعَدَ‎ (waʿada)
second-person feminine plural non-past passive subjunctive of وَعَدَ‎ (waʿada)
second-person feminine plural non-past passive jussive of وَعَدَ‎ (waʿada)

scribe correctly spelled it on prior page 21:103 توعدون tuaduna/thou promise being

Paris, Bibliothèque nationale de France: Arabe 328 (c)
Birmingham fragment Islamic Arabic 1572 (a), originally same codex: 568-645 CE (95.4%)
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/21/vers/103/handschrift/158



Virtual hugs thank you so much

Sania Haque

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Re: WHY DO SECTARIANS ASK ME TO EXPLAIN QIRAAT?
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2020, 03:30:37 AM »
Peace again little sister..

Again advice...make it or break it , all up to you...
Advice is, don't go after Hadith mongers answering there questions... Quran advice.. When the ignorant address you say peace and leave them... The followers of hadith are ignorant people...

These two verses astounding .... Hope they may make you ponder..

2:176 "That is because Allah hath revealed the Scripture with the truth. Lo! those who find (a cause of) disagreement in the Scripture are in open schism"

3:93 "All food was lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel had made unlawful to himself before the Torah was revealed. Say, [O Muhammad], "So bring the Torah and recite it, if you should be truthful."

Points to ponder.. 2:176 True believer cannot disagree in quran.. If does,  then he is in clear division... That is in following book only.. Remember book only... So.. If leave the book and follow another (example hadith) ,  what that could be.. Leave it to you to decide..

3:93 ... Why Prophet should ask them to bring the Torah and recite IF THEY ARE TRUTUFUL... first they can only be truthdul if they follow Torah.. Second.. There is no other hadith book with Torah to follow but only Torah... So it is very evident even for previois community God delivered book only valid and not hadith or Talmud... Prophet could have told bring Torah and Tulmad (hadith)  and recite it to him if you are truthful ... But prophet only said Bring Torah.. Nothing else...

That's why

44:3 "We sent it down during a Blessed Night: for We (ever) wish to warn"

42:7 "And thus We have revealed to you an Arabic Qur'an that you may warn the Mother of Cities [Makkah] and those around it and warn of the Day of Assembly, about which there is no doubt. A party will be in Paradise and a party in the Blaze"

You can't warn with any other thing.. But only Quran

Same Quran is Glad tidings as well...

Even if you happened to or try to answer their questions, they will never be satisfied with your responses.. Coz they are ignorant and most of their hearts are sealed... Just leave them... Let them find their way of God willed. Find your path... Straight path... If you wish straight path.. If you like the path of those who are astray or got the wrath of God then you address those ignorant people...

If you are still unable to come to a conclusion I will give you a way out...

Just take both Quran and Hadith book of your choice(suppose bukhari, Tirmidi or even shia hadith books)..
Then find fault in Quran and the selected hadith book...if your Common sense says that there is errors and hilarious matters in one of the chosen book then select the book which you didn't find mistakes... Let's see in what you end up... If you select hadith book then debate here with your knowledge that hadith books are right... And if you found Quran then bring your thoughts here... If you found both right then explain  why..
Quran itself claim there is no contradiction in it.. 2:2 ... Further says.. If it is from other than Allah then many a contradiction... So find the contradiction and bring them in order to find out... That's why this forum helps.. Coz people debate and give their comments...
If God created this amazing world and then a book claimed it is from Him cannot possibly have nonsensical things.. Right.. So we can just dump it..

There is point in God saying leave the ignorant.. Why didn't God say,  debate with ignorant... So option is given by God with intent... He knows the outcome of having to argue with them..

Answer those who try to seek guidance and not to those whose intent is to mock you..

Note to everyone : if Quran and Hadith both from God it is must all follow both.. Right.. But.. Both Quran and Hadith should not contradict in the first place.. Coz God says we won't find any contradiction in His Quran...  So.. If Hadith is also from GOd then same logic shoukd apply... Coz God's books cannot have contradiction... Why God didn't promise that we preserve hadith while he said we revealed the the Reminder and we preserve it.. If no promise ..then  people are are better than God to preserve something.. Use logic

Hi again. Thank you for another amazing advice. This time It wasn't about giving an answer to hadithmongers. It was about my confusion Because i wasn't getting what was the connection between Qiraat and following Quran.

Sania Haque

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Re: WHY DO SECTARIANS ASK ME TO EXPLAIN QIRAAT?
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2020, 03:33:22 AM »
Salam Sania,

I believe Wakas has answered this question in another thread in case you missed it.

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611206.msg431428#msg431428

I have also briefly mentioned my perspective in that thread (not directly related with Qiraat but almost always come up when people try to defend sahih hadith books by arguing rejecting sahih hadith books = rejecting Quran because they were passed down from the very same people)


Wassalam

I checked it. Thank you

Sania Haque

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Re: WHY DO SECTARIANS ASK ME TO EXPLAIN QIRAAT?
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2020, 03:41:22 AM »
You've asked this twice now.

Already discussed on the original thread you asked it on:
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611206.msg431428#msg431428

This time my question was different. I was myself trying to understand what was the logic behind their question to connect different qiraat with following the command of Quran. They always asked to explain the qiraat and as dumb as I am I didn't understand they where actually asking me " explain why if Prophet Muhammad didn't teach anything except Quran, then why didn't Quran explain qiraat " I FREAKING DIDN'T KNOW THEY LITERALLY BELIEVED THAT GABRIEL REVEALED THE QURAN IN SEVEN DIFFERENT HURUFS.

good logic

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Re: WHY DO SECTARIANS ASK ME TO EXPLAIN QIRAAT?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2020, 05:17:31 AM »
Peace Sania Haque.
Surely they believe there was only one version  of Qoran collected into one book  by Uthman according to their own history.
If they also do this,quote
 I FREAKING DIDN'T KNOW THEY LITERALLY BELIEVED THAT GABRIEL REVEALED THE QURAN IN SEVEN DIFFERENT HURUFS.

They would have had seven different books collected by Uthman!! So they contradict their history?
GOD bless you.
Peace.
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Sania Haque

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Re: WHY DO SECTARIANS ASK ME TO EXPLAIN QIRAAT?
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2020, 05:42:43 AM »
Sometimes I look at them and think wow they make a joke out of logic with their full chest.

The Sardar

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Re: WHY DO SECTARIANS ASK ME TO EXPLAIN QIRAAT?
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2020, 10:48:51 AM »
peace Noon,

You need to write a short article with examples discussing how we can use the oldest manuscripts and intra-Quran comparison (i.e. internal Quran checks) to minimise variance/errors. I don't think many have written on that subject so I think people would find it useful.
Indeed. The Qir'at argument used by sectarians needs to be addressed.

Noon waalqalami

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Re: WHY DO SECTARIANS ASK ME TO EXPLAIN QIRAAT?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2020, 07:58:29 AM »
peace Noon,

You need to write a short article with examples discussing how we can use the oldest manuscripts and intra-Quran comparison (i.e. internal Quran checks) to minimise variance/errors. I don't think many have written on that subject so I think people would find it useful.

peace Wakas, too many variances although cross-reference context method is same.

An example (7:69:22) bastatan/extensively – spell with saad or seen as in (2:247:32)?

Here we can see that 2:247 is spelled consistently with seen in all the old manuscripts.

2:247 وزاده and enhance him (sing.) بسطه extensively (with seen) في in العلم the knowledge

9th word from top, 1st word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/247?handschrift=41

7th line from top, last word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/247/handschrift/170

6th line from bottom, 2nd word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/247?handschrift=601

5th line from bottom, 5th word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/247?handschrift=163

5th line from top, 3rd word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/247/handschrift/878/flip/1

5th line from top, 4th word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/2/vers/247?handschrift=32





Whereas in verse 7:69 almost all the manuscripts spell it with saad

7:69 ... وزادكم and enhance you (plural) في in الخلق the creation بصطه extensively (with saad)

5th line from bottom, last word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/69/handschrift/170/flip/1

10th line from top, 7th word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/69?handschrift=13

12th line from top, 1st word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/69?handschrift=56



5th line from bottom, 3rd word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/69?handschrift=1245

2nd line from top, 3rd word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/69/handschrift/33/flip/2

4th line from bottom, 2nd word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/69?handschrift=589

1st line at top, 2nd word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/69/handschrift/41/flip/1

2nd line from bottom, 2nd word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/69/handschrift/626/flip/1


However these two manuscripts spelled it with seen, same as in verse 2:247?

2:247 وزاده and enhance him (sing.) بسطه extensively (with seen) في in العلم the knowledge

7:69 ... وزادكم and enhance you (plural) في in الخلق the creation بسطه extensively (with seen?)


8th line from top, first word in both manuscripts

Berlin, State Library: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
662-765, CE (95.4%) - Parchment partly overwritten and the original ink barely recognizable
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/69/handschrift/163

Berlin, State Library: facsimile print of the Samarkand Codex, Saint Petersburg 1905
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/69?handschrift=141



Careful reading/context we see above manuscripts error especially the last contains numerous errors.

Hence, بسطه with seen is for singular whereas بصطه with saad is for plural

see below as well …

17:29 ولا and not تجعل thou make يدك hand your (sing.) مغلوله chained الي to عنقك neck your
 ولا and not تبسطها tabsutha/thou extend it (with seen i.e. singular)...

30:48 ... فتثير so raise سحابا cloud of فيبسطه fayabsutuhu/so spreadeth it (with seen i.e. singular) في in السما the sky ...



Noon waalqalami

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Re: WHY DO SECTARIANS ASK ME TO EXPLAIN QIRAAT?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2020, 12:10:20 PM »
peace,

quick note: the last two manuscripts were heavily written over most probably hundreds of years later.

example: 7:179 ولهم and for them اعين eyes لا not يبصرون yubsiruna/seeing (with س seen not ص saad?)

see 6th line from bottom, 6th word
Berlin, State Library: Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
85% of the entire text, 662-765, CE (95.4%)
Parchment partly overwritten and the original ink barely recognizable
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/179?handschrift=163



easily detected error spelled correctly with ص saad in other manuscripts and following page

7:195 اعين eyes يبصرون yubsiruna/seeing

7:198  لا not يبصرون yubsiruna/seeing


6th line from top, 4th word
13th line from top, 4th word
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/7/vers/198/handschrift/163