Author Topic: I am going to apostate  (Read 4338 times)

19_submission

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2020, 11:15:31 AM »
I dont even know in which category i fall. Quranism doesn't make sense to me. Neither does hadiths. While i fully believe that hadiths are anti Qur'an, this Quran alone is not doing it for me. I am not able to find any firm ground here. There is no stability in Quranism. Yall are open to follow any interpretation of Quran and that is i guess is the negative point of this whole movement. I became Ahle Quran to learn the laws of Allah correctly, but this has distorted my faith more than ever. I feel so disconnected from Allah, my faith is totally gone, it's like I know God exists but my belief in it is waning.  What do i do, i feel like I am losing my mind. I am so confused and nothing is making sense to it. I feel like I am about to apostate. I read Quran but it doesn't do anything for me. I think the only thing that is stopping me is the fear of hell and say of Judgement. Can yall just tell me if i become a deist or monotheist but donot follow any religion ( not even Islam and Quran ) will i go to hell according to Quran ? I am just tired of not finding any answer from Quran. I just feel like the true religion of God should have a clear message that should resonate with the whole mankind. Quran doesn't calls to my soul with some of its verses. I don't get why would God hate any lgbtq+ ( and i am not here to start any discussion on it, on my last post already someone judged me for it and made me feel that i am looking for excuses to transgress against Quran ), i just dont understand it. Yeah we can use the argument that Allah is using it for test then why not make every person a homosexual and then test them ? Why is Allah unfair to some. Why would Allah call himself fair and just and do something like this.
Then comes the fact that Quran is just not at all clear whether we have to take it literally or not. Again my issue is, is there any set of laws given by Allah or not ?
If Allah is clear in his words why most of the messages are unclear .

What is salat ?
Is alcohol forbidden ?
Is hajj obligatory or not ?
Does god forbid all kind of sex except penis-vagina sex or does all kinds of sexual act is permissible between husband and wife.
Is abortion is haram or is it permissible ?
Is the story of Lut forbidding homosexuality or is it condemning raping and oppression ?
Quran tells you to wear hijab and abaya too or Quran only tells you to lower the garments and cover the bosom ?

These are not the only cases where yall disagree with each other. Quranism has confused me more than the hadiths because at least it was apparent that a man made book would be unclear and full of contradictions but why is that we cannot agree at anything when it comes to the book of God ? I am one step away from having a full mental breakdown. The stress is weighing down on me and affecting me physically, mentally and emotionally. I came to this forum to find answers. I am just left with more confusion and questions. I am tired of following something which doesn't makes sense to me. I love God, i believe in him, i just don't believe anymore that Quran is the answer for me. It is my fear of judgement day only that has been keeping me from finally accepting myself as deist and leaving behind all the religion. I just want to know whether a deist is also considered a believer according to Quran, or am I disbeliever for abandoning Quran but still believing in God ?

Peace be upon you!

I think that you are complicating it more than you are frustrated with it. You have brought up many points, some which are correct and some which are not! Several of the things you have stated and considered as "issues in the Quran; in reality, you did it out of lack of knowledge. Knowledge is the cure for one's ignorance.

Understanding of the Quran can differ between individuals - all the guidance comes from the Almighty only! Therefore, it is vital to study the Quran in its accurate way and deny the doctrine of "interpretations". God alone teaches us the Quran. It can be either very clear and touching to some - or it can be confusing and unresponsive to others. I am one of those who observe the Quran as a holy book. I believe it is the greatest miracle/book that has ever been existent! These two verses from the Quran should (God willing) verify my claims above:

[55:1-2] The Almighty taught the Quran.

Now, regarding the questions, I will try to answer them to the best of my knowledge, remember that all guidance comes from God alone!

Q1: Am I a disbeliever if I "believe in God and abandon the Quran?".

Answer: No, as long as you dedicate your belief and heart to God alone, and live a righteous life; God promises to save you from the retribution of hell. This is per the verse:

[2:62] Indeed, those who believe and those who are Jewish, the Christians and the Sabians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do good deeds; they will have their reward with their Lord. No fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

Consequently, you will be classified as a "Submitter" or "Muslim" in Arabic. The Mumi'ns (believers) are those who observe the Quran and follow God's commandments in it, such as the contact prayers (Salat), charity (Zakat) and so on. Islam, the only religion authorised by God (3:19), is the state of full submission to God and His absolute authority. In that sense, Islam is not a religion exclusive to the Quran, nor is a religion that was first introduced by prophet Muhammad. Islam is the same religion that was prescribed in all previous Scriptures and all previous messengers of God were submitters to God. Those who submit to God alone are Muslims regardless of the tag (Muslim, Jew, Christian) that is above their head. We read in the Quran that even as far back as Abraham, he was neither a Jew nor a Christian but a monotheist Muslim (3:67).

Q2: What is Salat?

Answer: Salat or contact prayers are to be observed daily by a believer (Mu'min). The prayers are a way for the believers to speak to God, or in other words, contact Him. The Salat is a much broad subject. I would recommend that you read about it, this Quranist site covers it all and briefly explains how it should be performed: https://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/al-salat_(P1192).html

Q3: Is alcohol prohibited?

Answer: Shortly said, yes. You can read it about it as well as all the details and the wisdom behind it here: https://www.quran-islam.org/articles/alcohol_prohibition_(P1163).html

Q4: Is Hajj obligatory or not?

Answer: It is directed to the believers and its advised more than it is "obligatory". You can read more about it here: https://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/al-hajj_(P1195).html

Q5: Does God forbid all kind of sex except vaginal sexual intercourse or is all kinds of sexual activity permissible between husband and wife?

Answer: This can be the thought of some people. However, God did not directly prohibit anal-sex or other sexual performances between husband and wife. God's words are clear, so does his laws and none is allowed to make laws besides Him:

[12:1] A.L.R. These are the signs of the clear Book.

[10:63]... There is no changing the Words of God.

[6:38]... We did not leave anything out of the Book

[6:115] The Word of your Lord has been completed, in truth and justice. None can change His Words. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.

[16:89]... We brought the Book down to you providing explanations for all things

[12:111]... This is not a fabricated hadith, but an authentication of what came before it, a detailed account of all things, and guidance and mercy for people who believe.

[6:114] Shall I seek other than God as a lawmaker when it is He who has brought down to you the Book fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Scripture know that it was brought down from your Lord with truth, so do not be among the doubters.


In conclusion, when God issues a law, then it is to be declared detailed and straight forward. And nowhere in the Quran can we find that God prohibited it for the believers. Those who believe in the verses quoted above, they should refrain from prohibiting what God did not prohibit as per (6:114)!

Q6: Is abortion is haram or is it permissible?

Answer: Abortion is forbidden for the believers, you can find more information here: https://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_seven/abortion_(P1593).html

Q7: Is the story of Lut forbidding homosexuality or is it condemning raping and oppression?

Answer: This is a broad topic that I have not yet researched. Therefore, I am not to issue any judgements on the subject without proper research. As God commanded the believers:

[17:36] And do not follow what you have no knowledge of. The hearing, the sight and the heart, all these will be questioned for it.

Furthermore, to answer your question "the argument that Allah is using it for a test then why not make every person a homosexual and then test them". God grants distinguished tests to all individuals:

[5:48]... For each of you, We have decreed a law and a method. Had God willed, He would have made you one nation, but He tests you through what He has given each of you. So hasten to do good deeds. To God is your return, all of you, then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.

Q8: Does the Quran tell you to wear hijab and abaya too or does it only tells you to lower the garments and cover the bosom?

Answer: There is no such thing as "hijab" or "abaya" in the Quran. The believers are commanded to dress modesty and not show their breasts and private parts. More information on the subject: https://www.quran-islam.org/articles/women_dress_code_(P1150).html

Please note that the punctations like this one "[5:48...]" are quoting a piece of the verse and not the full one, I have not included the full verse in some due to the message/topic being irrelevant to what we are discussing.

Lastly, I would advise you to make a fresh start and learn Islam from the beginning. You seem to have some of the sunna ideologies still stuck in your head. Check out this topic that I have written, in it contains a pdf that will (God willing) shed your light on Islam: https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611208.msg431455#msg431455

My Lord, admit me an entrance of truth and let me depart an exit of truth, and grant me from You a supporting authority. 17:80

Peace,
19_submission

Noon waalqalami

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2020, 03:05:49 PM »
Peace NWQ...

Bit off-topic but I would like to ask opinion..

Do you take this watawasaw  as Exhort /Enjoin only... But for me this watawasaw is perfectly giving sense as inherit...
One believe,  and do good deeds and inherit to himself  with truth and patience ...if we don't enjoin, are we at loss?  Just asking... What is you or opinion and others...
If I enjoin will others take it as true, how do one know what he enjoin is right.. As we all know there is so many difference of understanding within Quran among believers.. So by enjoining they won't necessarily accept.. Would they?
Inherit for me suits perfectly..

peace – property, parents, genes, tribe, etc. we are given i.e.  ورث waritha/inherit

4:11
 وورثه wawarithahu/and inherit him/said person ابواه parents dual his/said person
 فلامه so to mother his/said person الثلث the third


we exhort, encourage, enjoin, etc., behaviors which is opposite of discourage.

90:17 ثم furthermore كان be من of الذين the ones امنوا believes they of وتوصوا and exhort they of بالصبر in the patience وتوصوا and exhort they of بالمرحمه in the mercy

jkhan

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2020, 07:11:24 PM »
peace – property, parents, genes, tribe, etc. we are given i.e.  ورث waritha/inherit

4:11
 وورثه wawarithahu/and inherit him/said person ابواه parents dual his/said person
 فلامه so to mother his/said person الثلث the third


we exhort, encourage, enjoin, etc., behaviors which is opposite of discourage.

90:17 ثم furthermore كان be من of الذين the ones امنوا believes they of وتوصوا and exhort they of بالصبر in the patience وتوصوا and exhort they of بالمرحمه in the mercy

Thanks for your clarification.. So it is only exhort or enjoin for.. That's what I wanted know.. But for me it is inherit a non physical thing towards one...

Yes.. We all know "warith" is inheritance to be correct any tangible physical thing.. For example Janna,  book,  property land etc.. That's inheritance in quran...but you can inherit certain things which is not physical.. Love,  mercy, truth, patience.. This definitely different...
One can never be at LOSS for not enjoining others with truth and patience... True good believers always try to speak truth in their life.. That's fine.. But how can they be at loss if they failed to enjoin truth and patience and mercy...
True believers every action is a direct reflection to others who he is.. His action enjoins to others...
We can enjoin right and wrong to our family friends etc while we be right and avoid wrong...that enjoining between believers is so natural... It is not must we enjoin disbelievers.. Do we?  Whether we enjoin/warn or  not they won't believe.. It is same.. 2:6

True believers when they believe in God and do salih good deeds,  they automatically turn to be with patience with mercy with truth.. That's what I take from those verses.. Leave it to other readers for their choice... God guide us..

BTW I don't blame your understanding brother NWQ.. Coz that's what you and probably most people's understanding..

ade_cool

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2020, 08:12:52 PM »
I didn't say the Qur'an is false. I said there are certain verses that haven't aged well, verses that our accumulated body of knowledge contradict or do not verify. Now, as Muslims we may insist the verses have to be correct because the Qur'an is a divine text, but if a neutral reader is unable to reach the same conclusion, then we have a huge problem.

If you want examples of these verses, just type "Errors in the Qur'an" in Google search box and start from there. Listen to some few exMuslims and Islam critics.

That is an empty suggestion ...for sure, everyone can search in google "errors in the Qur'an" but from google search result, which ones you are convinced that those are truly errors in Quran. So which ones? Perhaps can you give your top 3 errors in the Qur'an?

good logic

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2020, 07:23:51 AM »
Peace ade_cool .
Google/internet is the modern "hadiths". We can find anything we want in it,here is my list:
Errors in believing there is a God.
Errors in believing  there is no God.
Errors in the bible
errors in Qoran.
errors  in everything we do as humans.
errors in all religions.
...  You make your own list and you will find it if you "google" it.
Actually you can even find errors in "google".

Put it this way, the whole purpose of the human being has errors according to google. That does not mean there are no errors in all things humans.

But if one believes in GOD and believes GOD sent a scripture,surely they EXPECT that scripture to be ERRORLESS !!!!!
Or they do not really believe in either -just lip service-
By definition GOD does not err. or send errors.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

good logic

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2020, 07:34:46 AM »
I meant to add this most important point:
If one finds errors and has solid proof they are errors in any claimed scripture from GOD , then it is not from GOD , it is not scripture and has nothing to do with GOD.
It is simply from other than GOD.
That is if one knows who is GOD and believes in GOD.
GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

Anoushirvan

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2020, 09:30:37 AM »
I meant to add this most important point:
If one finds errors and has solid proof they are errors in any claimed scripture from GOD , then it is not from GOD , it is not scripture and has nothing to do with GOD.
It is simply from other than GOD.
That is if one knows who is GOD and believes in GOD.
GOD bless.
Peace.

Peace GL,

A insightful criticism of you opinions though no offense intended, but it is really striking me how your belief is really close to two things:
1. The modern one: conspiracy theories. Everything going against the kind of belief (in God) you have, in particular pointing at errors and fallacies in Scriptures, is a kind of conspiracy against this belief.

2. The ancient one: Gnosticsm, which, by the way, was also a kind of conspiracy theory of the ancient way.

You said "That is if one knows who is GOD and believes in GOD."

Seeking the knowledge of God was precisely the purpose of Gnosticism ("gnosis" in greek means knowledge), because Gnostics believed that knowing God and the realm of God was the only way to reach salvation.
Ancient Gnostics believed that angels or jinns, or messenger could stimulate awareness of the God realm, somehow you have replaced those stimulating entities by Qur'an.

Ancient Gnostics also believed that this lowly world was inherently bad and conspired to prevent mankind to reach the knowledge of God and therefore salvation.

I would like to draw your attention on the fact that this is precisely this kind of belief, relying on knowledge of God, that is harshly blamed in Qur'an in numerous verses.

But the mere fact that you draw your belief from Qur'an is a likely indication that Qur'an probably used the same mindset as the Gnostic beliefs it wanted to blame.

Again, no offense intended, just raising awareness.

good logic

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2020, 03:50:12 PM »
Peace Anoushirvan..
This is very simple logic, if one believes this:
God. ( ɡɒd) n. 1. (,Theology) theol the sole Supreme Being, eternal, spiritual, and transcendent, who is the Creator and ruler of all and is infinite in all attributes(All knowing...etc)

Then the above God should be perfect and does not do errors. Or is this not logical to you?

That is what my post was implying.
Just to clarify for you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

Neptin

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2020, 04:16:03 PM »
That is an empty suggestion ...for sure, everyone can search in google "errors in the Qur'an" but from google search result, which ones you are convinced that those are truly errors in Quran. So which ones? Perhaps can you give your top 3 errors in the Qur'an?

I already mentioned two in my original post on this thread. One on human embryology and the other on geography. I have only referred him to Google in a bid to get him see there are alternative diverse and contradicting views on the infallibility of Qur'an.
Reclaiming Islam from extremism;
Flames Of Truth

Neptin

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2020, 06:08:39 PM »
Peace ade_cool .
Google/internet is the modern "hadiths". We can find anything we want in it,here is my list:
Errors in believing there is a God.
Errors in believing  there is no God.
Errors in the bible
errors in Qoran.
errors  in everything we do as humans.
errors in all religions.
...  You make your own list and you will find it if you "google" it.
Actually you can even find errors in "google".

Well, at least searching on Google is the first step to inquiry. Anyone should know this. After collecting ideas and views on Google, then the next step would be to verify those ideas. So, what is wrong with referring jkhan to Google again?

Quote
But if one believes in GOD and believes GOD sent a scripture,surely they EXPECT that scripture to be ERRORLESS !!!!!
Or they do not really believe in either -just lip service-
By definition GOD does not err. or send errors.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Well, everyone is free to have their approach to the scripture. For me, it's about the practical utility.
So, the discussion on what one believes about God and the divinity of Qur'an is really of no relevance to me. I just want to decipher the verses and make the best of what I can of the ancient document, that's it.
Reclaiming Islam from extremism;
Flames Of Truth