Author Topic: I am going to apostate  (Read 4337 times)

huruf

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2020, 06:34:21 AM »
Salaam, Sania,

Be honest with yourself and trust yourself in the first place. Sel analyse yourself why you feel this or that way so that you do not make mistakes as your basic stand and then bear well in mind and have always present these two ayas:

39.18
..who listen [closely] to all that is said, and follow the best of it: [for] it is they whom God has graced with His guidance, and it is they who are [truly] endowed with insight!
39.44
And ere that suffering comes upon you of a sudden, without your being aware [of its approach], follow the most goodly [teaching] that has been revealed unto you by your Sustainer,

You do not have to find anything in the Qur'an ans straightforward know what it means and feel it is a failure if you do not get anything out of it. We all have a life whichusually lasts more than one second, or more than a year or more than a decade or more than many decades. If we started knowing evrything and have nothing to find out, we would not be the creaure God intended us to be. Patience is, to me, the most islamic virtue. Patience, no resignation, pursue even when one feels discouraged. It always brings great compensation. Dos nto matter if you find very little "best" to start with. Trust your own criteria. You may be wrong, but one is always coherent with oneself. At some point you will make sense. Be patient in the first place with yourself. You hav all the time in the world to work out. God knows that, God likes that, God wants it that way. And even if you are wrong in something, or in a lot, you have to start somewhere, and that womewhere is excatly where you are the time.

TAKE IT EASY. tRUST YOURSELF, GOD IS TRUST.

The fact that you are in such a quandary is a good omen. Do not exchange that need for meaning for easy world "certified" certainty. Nobody can give you that, because it is something you have to find in yourself, but you will not getting without trust and patience .

Salaam

Noon waalqalami

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2020, 11:38:03 AM »
Patience is, to me, the most islamic virtue. Patience, no resignation, pursue even when one feels discouraged. It always brings great compensation.

peace huruf, yes evident in one of the shortest chapters.

103:0 بسم bismi/in name الله l-lahi/the god الرحمن l-rahmani/the almighty الرحيم l-rahimi/the merciful
103:1 والعصر wal-asri/and/by the epoch
103:2 ان inna/indeed الانسن l-insana/the humankind لفي lafi/surely in خسر khusrin/loss
103:3 الا illa/except الذين alladhina/the ones امنوا amanu/believes they of وعملوا waamilu/and work they of الصلحت l-salihati/the righteous وتوصوا watawasaw/and exhort they of بالحق bil-haqi/in the truth وتوصوا watawasaw/and exhort they of بالصبر bil-sabri/in the patience




huruf

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2020, 04:15:10 AM »
peace huruf, yes evident in one of the shortest chapters.

103:0 بسم bismi/in name الله l-lahi/the god الرحمن l-rahmani/the almighty الرحيم l-rahimi/the merciful
103:1 والعصر wal-asri/and/by the epoch
103:2 ان inna/indeed الانسن l-insana/the humankind لفي lafi/surely in خسر khusrin/loss
103:3 الا illa/except الذين alladhina/the ones امنوا amanu/believes they of وعملوا waamilu/and work they of الصلحت l-salihati/the righteous وتوصوا watawasaw/and exhort they of بالحق bil-haqi/in the truth وتوصوا watawasaw/and exhort they of بالصبر bil-sabri/in the patience

Thank you for bringing up this sura. It is indeed uplinfting and comforting.

Salaam

jkhan

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2020, 06:40:29 AM »
peace huruf, yes evident in one of the shortest chapters.

103:0 بسم bismi/in name الله l-lahi/the god الرحمن l-rahmani/the almighty الرحيم l-rahimi/the merciful
103:1 والعصر wal-asri/and/by the epoch
103:2 ان inna/indeed الانسن l-insana/the humankind لفي lafi/surely in خسر khusrin/loss
103:3 الا illa/except الذين alladhina/the ones امنوا amanu/believes they of وعملوا waamilu/and work they of الصلحت l-salihati/the righteous وتوصوا watawasaw/and exhort they of بالحق bil-haqi/in the truth وتوصوا watawasaw/and exhort they of بالصبر bil-sabri/in the patience


Peace NWQ...

Bit off-topic but I would like to ask opinion..

Do you take this watawasaw  as Exhort /Enjoin only... But for me this watawasaw is perfectly giving sense as inherit...
One believe,  and do good deeds and inherit to himself  with truth and patience ...if we don't enjoin, are we at loss?  Just asking... What is you or opinion and others...
If I enjoin will others take it as true, how do one know what he enjoin is right.. As we all know there is so many difference of understanding within Quran among believers.. So by enjoining they won't necessarily accept.. Would they?
Inherit for me suits perfectly..

jkhan

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2020, 09:08:20 PM »

Then feel free to quit. Here is the thing, the Qur'an has its limitations. In principles, it can work well to advice your life choices, but its decrees and theories on nature may seem dated and false. This is the cold harsh truth.

There is no flawless religion or scripture, atheism, deism, Islam, Christianity, every position is flawed. I too had my issues last year, and could've left Islam, but I realized that it didn't matter what I left Islam for, I was always going to have to deal with flaws.

And so at long last, I resolved to stay in Islam and just practice it to my taste. This is my advice to anyone thinking of apostasy. I don't let judgmental Muslims bully me into blindly accepting verses or interpretation that makes no sense to me. If anyone accuses me of "transgressing the Qur'an," I simply remind them of the limitations of the Qur'an, such as the passages on science that seem to falsely imply the embryo is a blood clot or that the upper atmosphere is a solid dome.

Peace... Neptin ...

I am not here to advise you or change you... But your path will take you nowhere... Unless you be certain in your way chosen. 

I am talking about cold harsh truth what you have written... So literally Quran is false.. That's cold harsh truth in your view.. Can I have 10 example if you have time that prompted to say so.. Except from what you have already stated..

And emphasize on your second point.. There is no flawless scripture.  Why you decided so?  So you still opted to believe in deity who can't even construct a clear book of instructions... Since scripture is full flaw,  So God is something by chance you have made intimate to you and not by fear and necessity?

And the last concern is embryo and solid dome... So you believe the explanation of embryo and solid dome are not going in line with science so you question them so they be mum coz they temp to believe embryo otherwise and no dome as well...
So you accepted science for whatever it says over the verses of Quran... Is that sound right if I say so.
Science is something to be believed when verified.. I don't reject it at all.. For example DNA.. I do believe and I hope that is right thing to believe.. But never forget science is developing and not complete... So...  Rejecting God's verses in place developing science... What would you do if science change their mind at a lost time..  Further there are sience that may trick human being into false direction  intentionally.. Have you verified their intentions...

So, Where are you heading by having faith in this nature?  Do you have any idea?

jkhan

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2020, 09:19:13 PM »
Peace NWQ...

Bit off-topic but I would like to ask opinion..

Do you take this watawasaw  as Exhort /Enjoin only... But for me this watawasaw is perfectly giving sense as inherit...
One believe,  and do good deeds and inherit to himself  with truth and patience ...if we don't enjoin, are we at loss?  Just asking... What is you or opinion and others...
If I enjoin will others take it as true, how do one know what he enjoin is right.. As we all know there is so many difference of understanding within Quran among believers.. So by enjoining they won't necessarily accept.. Would they?
Inherit for me suits perfectly..

By the way brother NWQ.. I do completly agree verses which says Enjoin right /good and avoid wrong /bad where word YAmurun is used.. You can enjoin.. That's fine.. Nowhere it is mentioned that we are at loss where YAmurun is mentioned.. And not Truth and patience enjoin.. I hope ..

Layth

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2020, 10:45:53 PM »
Dear Sania,

If I may voice some comments over your concerns:

1. Most of us here identify as "Muslims/Submitters" which is what God named His servants since the days of Abraham (not "Quranists");
2. This forum is a sounding board for ideas - the posts are not meant to be taken literally and some views are far out there. The articles in the site are more founded in specific verses and would be a better place to get information rather than debate without end;
3. We are commanded by God to "listen to what is being said, and follow the best of it" (39:18) - that should always be your compass as you what to follow should there be varying points;
4. All people who serve God alone and do good work (Jews, Nazarenes, etc.) have nothing to fear (2:62);
5. Walk before you run (the Qur'an was revealed in time and over stages - you are trying to absorb it all at once which si creating all of these concerns.
`And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!` (The Quran 39:45)

Neptin

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2020, 01:30:14 AM »
What about abortion before the fetus is formed ? When it remains just a mass of cell ?

I don't really know what to make on abortion at that stage. It depend on the stage you determine the human life begins with. I believe biologically, the mast of cells is alive, but so is a single sperm or an egg. To me it's all about playing safe and erring on the side of caution.

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I read some of the articles and they said alcohol is only forbidden if it causes intoxication. People can have one glass of red wine and can even use it in food.

Moderate drinking, right? I've considered that opinion before but gave it up because moderate drinking could be a slippery slope to addiction and intoxication.

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Other said that Allah made penis and vagina as the sex organ, so it is common sense Allah is only talking about vaginal sex in Quran and others prohibited. Also, there is a verse which said we should avoid indeceny which are both visible and hidden. They claim all kind of sex except vaginal sex and masturbation comes under hidden indecency.

Again, Qur'an did not mention these things. These people just see taboos and activities they're grossed out by and they're finding an Qur'anic authority to ban it. It is a form of religious abuse.

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Can you explain 4:16, isn't it talking about adultery and its punishment ?

OK. I made a mistake, I've been translating the verse wrongly.

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As i said i have immense fear of misinterpreting laws of Allah and transgressing against Quran. At the same time it doesn't make sense to me either. I feel like instead of following Something wrong i should follow nothing at all. If monotheism is what the main message of Quran then I already believe in the day of Judgement and that God is one. I feel like the label of muslim is weighing down on me ( in today's time muslim doesn't mean submitter to God. Now it has taken a form of submitter to a specific religion called Islam. Now Islam doesn't just mean submission to God. It means submission to the Quran ). Plus muslims have a long way to go before they let go of arrogance and bullying. The mainstream muslims are sectarians. Forget about hadiths, if I try to explain my opinion on some verse of Quran they would start the name calling. These people have created such a bad image of Islam that i hate being associated with them. I donot fit in a sectarian world and the Quran alone is not doing it for me. I believe in God. I believe that Quran is the word of God. It's just that the words of God is not making any sense to me. I just dont want to end up in hell for abandoning Quran.

Ah, if only I could be any help to you. Just trust your instinct. Try be as honest and rational as you can and leave the rest to fate.
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Neptin

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2020, 02:20:18 AM »
Peace... Neptin ...

I am not here to advise you or change you... But your path will take you nowhere... Unless you be certain in your way chosen. 

I am talking about cold harsh truth what you have written... So literally Quran is false.. That's cold harsh truth in your view.. Can I have 10 example if you have time that prompted to say so.. Except from what you have already stated..

I didn't say the Qur'an is false. I said there are certain verses that haven't aged well, verses that our accumulated body of knowledge contradict or do not verify. Now, as Muslims we may insist the verses have to be correct because the Qur'an is a divine text, but if a neutral reader is unable to reach the same conclusion, then we have a huge problem.

If you want examples of these verses, just type "Errors in the Qur'an" in Google search box and start from there. Listen to some few exMuslims and Islam critics.

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And emphasize on your second point.. There is no flawless scripture.  Why you decided so?  So you still opted to believe in deity who can't even construct a clear book of instructions... Since scripture is full flaw,  So God is something by chance you have made intimate to you and not by fear and necessity?

No. To me it is all about pragmatism. I can have doubt on accuracy of certain verses while at the same time appreciating the wisdom and teachings of other verses that I feel lend me a sense of fulfillment and hope. The notion that you have to reject the entire faith because just one verse is erroneous to you is not part of my philosophy on faith.

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And the last concern is embryo and solid dome... So you believe the explanation of embryo and solid dome are not going in line with science so you question them so they be mum coz they temp to believe embryo otherwise and no dome as well...
So you accepted science for whatever it says over the verses of Quran... Is that sound right if I say so.

It's not as so simple as taking what the science teacher says over the Qur'an. It's about the evidence in favor or against the Qur'an. Remember, the Qur'an don't just ask you to believe, it challenges you to verify. And I've had trouble verifying ideas of several verses that explains nature.

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So...  Rejecting God's verses in place developing science... What would you do if science change their mind at a lost time..  Further there are sience that may trick human being into false direction  intentionally..

I think it is pretty illogical to be asking these questions. It would be like asking, "What will you do tomorrow if you learn that meat is bad food?" The Qur'an makes claims, it challenges us to verify these claims from sources outside of it. And that's what I've done so far as honest as I can be. You may say that scientific research publications are lies or fabrications, but the onus is on you to prove that.

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jkhan

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Re: I am going to apostate
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2020, 03:59:09 AM »
I didn't say the Qur'an is false. I said there are certain verses that haven't aged well, verses that our accumulated body of knowledge contradict or do not verify. Now, as Muslims we may insist the verses have to be correct because the Qur'an is a divine text, but if a neutral reader is unable to reach the same conclusion, then we have a huge problem.

If you want examples of these verses, just type "Errors in the Qur'an" in Google search box and start from there. Listen to some few exMuslims and Islam critics.

No. To me it is all about pragmatism. I can have doubt on accuracy of certain verses while at the same time appreciating the wisdom and teachings of other verses that I feel lend me a sense of fulfillment and hope. The notion that you have to reject the entire faith because just one verse is erroneous to you is not part of my philosophy on faith.

It's not as so simple as taking what the science teacher says over the Qur'an. It's about the evidence in favor or against the Qur'an. Remember, the Qur'an don't just ask you to believe, it challenges you to verify. And I've had trouble verifying ideas of several verses that explains nature.

I think it is pretty illogical to be asking these questions. It would be like asking, "What will you do tomorrow if you learn that meat is bad food?" The Qur'an makes claims, it challenges us to verify these claims from sources outside of it. And that's what I've done so far as honest as I can be. You may say that scientific research publications are lies or fabrications, but the onus is on you to prove that.

Thank you brother Neptin..
Peace..
I am bit on the weaker side in English.. So I thought you said Quran is false.. But I leave it to the expert readers in English whether you actually stated or not ..  For me still your statement is a verdict to claim you said so.. That's what I understood..

You got it wrong dude.. God never said as Muslim, verses have to be correct... That's you mere assumption.. Further we all are neutral readers... We have all the rights to accept the Quran or reject... For accepting and rejecting one has to be neutral and study thoroughly and verify... Then one can take either of the decision.. But for a believer (even before quran) in God this Quran is non but truth that's his faith... I was a neutral reader when I initiated reading Quran.. No huge problem... It depends on each individual's interest... It was like finding medicinal plants in a jungle on your own first time ... Can everyone be successful?

Brother I wanted your example ciz you brought this matter to the table.. I know we can google almost anything.. I wanted to know what your concerns... OK leave that.. I won't dig again that..


Taking part of of the book which makes sense and reject which doesn't make sense is absolutely fine.. I also do that... BUT only human authored book I do so.. But not in God's.. If I find one in God's book and if it is provable to the best of knowledge then I will reject all of His book and Himself as well.. Coz having flaws in a book of Creator is ridiculous... Flaws can only be in human infusion.. Anyhow that's my way.. But in God's book God says why take part of the book and leave others.. So it sounds like there is nothing contradictory in quran..

Evidence in favor of or against the Quran.. Of course we have to coz book challenges so literally  God challenges... Verification is key.. But you claim you are in trouble verifying them especially pertaining to nature.. .. You are in trouble doesn't mean that they aren't verifiable ... In time hopefully you will in sha Allah..

It is not illogical brother...but the angle you took is illogical.. Look at the example you brought..  "What will you do tomorrow if you learn that meat is bad food?"
Do you want me to answer it.. Let me do it.  I would still eat meat.. Coz I love meat.. For ages it was good for me.. And for generation people do eat them...  And scientific point of view they have been recommending eating since it has best protein.. On top of that QURAN has allowed meat(does creator know better or scientist) . If they suddenly say not good it is their concern... And not ours.. Coz they may again say another thing about meat after sometime.. We are not here to dance to tune of their research and development... But we respect a convinced statement from science which they don't change and towards it people have kept faith 100 % ... Like said DNA... It is like finger print..
But embryo or having no dome all their on going research...

Of their publications OR research are verified by all scientists and for people's common sense and not a developing research but confirmed then we need to verify before accepting it.. Why I and 99.9% do accept DNA OR fingerprint .. Coz it is manifest ... No need to prove from our end anything in which they themselves not yet convinced...

I hope I have answered to your all questions.. Though I didn't segregate with your relevant quote..

May the blessings of God be with you..