Author Topic: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12  (Read 2496 times)

jkhan

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2020, 09:16:35 AM »
Don't to be too hasty in your conclusion here. Either you misunderstand me, or your conclusion is wrong, or my conclusion is wrong, or I misunderstand you. If not 100% sure, I'm at least 99% sure that you either misunderstand me, or your conclusion is wrong, or both. I think it's a mixture of both.Yes brother. I agree they are different. But I am not equating the Knowledge of God, or the Guidance of God, with the Will of God. I believe this is what you are doing.

If x can only will what God also Wills, and x wills to rape a woman, how can you say that God also did not Will this???

I think you are too determined to view humans as innocent. Perhaps you are not taking into account that we descended as enemies to one another (some of us to some others of us) or that we ate from the tree after God (the wholly innocent of evil) provided us with good, warned us of the devil, told us what would happen if we ate from the tree, and we still ate. All men, children, and women born on this planet, have (to my understanding) ate from the tree.

Also, another question. Please answer this specifically:

x rapes y. Let's say this was NOT also Willed by God (which is what you seem to believe). Did y deserve to be raped?

God had knowledge that y would be raped. If y did not deserve to be raped, why did God not stop an injustice from happening? And if it was a case of justice happening, why do you have any difficulties acknowledging that none can do anything except if God also Wills?

Peace brother..
You didn't respond to 81:27-29 but write nothing but challenge.. Don't take it as challenge dude... Just learn.. For your guidance...like we all learn..

DESERVE....
So is this the issue with you... If so.. Let me also ask you a similar question...
If I take in place of God another Deity, Does He deserve it? As per you He should Deserve that we take deities or associate with Him.. Coz everything happens according to His will.. So He deserve a deity taken by us,  like the raped girl deserves being raped.... That's the logic you apply.. Aren't you?... If He deserves we associate with Him, then let Him be calm looking at what He planned.. What He planned is We should associate deities with Him...same question like you pose. Why not God stops people associate with Him?
Leave aside rapist and the victim.. Why God deserves to be associated and why He planned that most on earth should associate with Him deities.. As per you so simple,  He well and truly deserves to be associated..

So.. Will of God is He Himself WANTED that people take another god/s ... If that is the will of God then what harm in taking another god?

I keep repeating and emphasizing but you failed not 99% but 100% to grasp what is WILL of God and WILLINGNESS/WANT of God... Even you didn't understand the two types I presented...

Now let me answer your question... Girl who got raped doesn't deserve to be raped like God doesn't deserve to be associated... No one deserves injustice in this world or hereafter.. God is just..
But God let the freewill of human to prevail... Further I pointed out in my previous threads that if God wanted He would have stopped that girl being raped... There are cases God helps and showing mercy and save from six disaster... God not interfere in every  human action.. Coz it is a test for us... That's why God says if He willed He would have made everyone one nation and guided all of us... In that case it is not freewill but God's totall control... Guidance is His choice to whome it deserves.. We can't will God's guidance, Mercy,  Help, God's destruction etc etc. That's God's will and willingness as well.  We can only will what we actually can will.. Beyond our capacity  we can't will...

81:29 is crystal clear, We can't will the right path that is to say guidance.. That God has to will then only it happens even though we wish guidance.  But you took the clear verse totally opposite thinking that we can't will anything at all whether it happens or not... But truth is We can will independently... That's why God says they plan and We plan and we are best of planners. They plan means they have to will first...
Will of God is His knowledge of what is to happen.. That's one point.. And will of God is in fact God plans.. Like mercy,  help, guidance,  destruction etc. 

Why God says.. Say God will before we do anything that we will  do tomorrow?
Coz we can will,  but it may or may not happen coz God knows the future.. So why we convincingly say something about future that we don't know....
Let me simplify that with an example...
I say that I wabtvto demolish this orphanage building tomorrow... So I WILL/PLAN...if God doesn't want to.interfere by Help or Mercy etc then what we willed will happen.. Coz it is already written in record coz of God's knowledge of future...
But in case if God WANTED to interfere by mercy of help. If that is what is written in Record.. Then we can't demolish the building though we willed...

Noon waalqalami

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2020, 11:55:55 AM »
Peace - So you don't think we're here because we sinned? You don't think we ate from the tree ...

peace -- no, impossible to sin before birth didn't eat from that tree.
only ate from trees like the two young fig trees I'm looking at now.

2:233 ... لا not تكلف burdened نفس soul الا except وسعها capacity its لا not تضار made to suffer والده walidatun/parent (maternal) بولدها in (due to) offspring hers ولا and not مولود mawludun/parent (paternal) له to him بولده in (due to) offspring his ...

17:36 ولا and not تقف thou pursue ما what ليس not is لك to you به in it علم knowledge ان indeed السمع the hearing والبصر and the sight والفواد and the heart كل each اوليك those كان be عنه about it مسيولا questioned of
17:37 ولا and not تمش thou walk في in الارض the land مرحا insolent of انك indeed you لن never تخرق breach الارض the land ولن and never تبلغ thou reach الجبل the mountains طولا height of
17:38 كل each ذلك such كان be سييه evil its عند near ربكم lord yours كروها disliked of
17:39 ذلك such مما from what اوحي inspires اليك to you ربك lord your من of الحكمه the wisdom ولا and not تجعل thou make مع with الله the god الها deity of اخر another فتلقي so receive في in جهنم abyss ملوما blameworthy of مدحورا forsaken of

31:33 يايها O you الناس the people اتقوا heeds ye of ربكم lord yours واخشوا and fears ye of يوما day of لا not يجزي availed والد walidun/parent عن about ولده walidihi/offspring (born/unborn) his ولا and not مولود mawludun/who offspring/born/begot هو he جاز avail عن about والده walidihi/parent his شييا thing of ان indeed وعد promise الله the god حق true فلا so not تغرنكم let deceive you الحيه the life الدنيا the world ولا and not يغرنكم let deceive you بالله in the god الغرور the deceiver


https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/31/vers/33?handschrift=107


nimnimak_11

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2020, 01:47:27 PM »
Peace brother..
You didn't respond to 81:27-29 but write nothing but challenge.. Don't take it as challenge dude... Just learn.. For your guidance...like we all learn..

Peace brother

I responded. Tell me what specific point I didn't respond to. In any case, this isn't primarily about challenging someone. This is about having beliefs that are not contradictory or paradoxical. I do not mean to say this an insulting way, but perhaps you need to learn in this instance. Perhaps it is you who needs guidance regarding this matter and not me. I will respond to your questions point by point, and I will not answer your questions with another question. So please answer my questions directly. This is surely better and probably more indicative of strength in one's position.
Quote
If I take in place of God another Deity, Does He deserve it?
I see your point, so I will clarify mine. Only evil deserves to be harmed (yes or no?). God deserves to always get what God Wants and this always happens. If you set up partners with God, it's because God Wanted this to happen. Obviously, this is because you want this to happen. It's like the devil seeking respite, and God granting it respite. God Wanted to give Satan respite. God Willed for Satan to be respited. So God always gets what God deserves even if there are those who are evil in relation to God because God Satisfies Itself by Punishing those who are evil. If God could not Satisfy Itself, why would God create them in the first place? God Knew x would become evil, God Knew that God would punish x brutally. God brought this about because this is Perfection. It's Perfection for evil to suffer. Suffering is one thing that evil is good for, just as oil is one thing that's good for frying eggs. Willingly or unwillingly we all serve God. In other words, we either serve God willingly, or we suffer unwillingly. If you are evil, God Wants to punish you. God deserves to punish you because you have viewed God as imperfect and you deserve to be punished for the same reason. Objectively speaking, you did not wrong anyone other than yourself. You were unfair or wrong in your attitude towards God, but you did not wrong God (because you did not harm God), you wronged yourself (because you chose to be such that it becomes perfection for you to be harmed against your will and against your best interest). This is Perfection.

If you harmed God like a woman is truly harmed when she is raped, that's a different matter. If God Allowed Itself to be wronged, then God is imperfect or evil. If God Allows a woman to be wronged, then God is imperfect or evil. So I ask you again, x rapes y. y is harmed against her will and against her best interest. Did y deserve to be harmed? If no, then God is imperfect and evil. If yes, then y got what y deserved. When you rejected God, you did not harm God against Its Will and against Its best interest. God is always Perfectly Satisfied. What about the woman that x raped? She was truly harmed by x. Did she deserve this?
Quote
Why not God stops people associate with Him?
Because God Wants to Punish them. Because it's perfection for evil to suffer. Evil chooses or consents to being evil. The rapist assesses that he is physically superior to the woman, and then rapes her. He acts in a manner that amounts to saying "that which is superior is justified in harming that which is inferior than it". So what will become of the rapist when God deals with him? If the rapist is put in Hell, can anyone other than the rapist be blamed for him being harmed against his will and against his best interest. Sure, the rapist might blame God for his suffering. The rapist would have to reject that it's perfection for him to suffer. He cannot do this rationally.

To omit or negate this perfection (evil suffering), is imperfection. It's sadistic to satisfy yourself by harming another, but in the context of God, it's Perfection. It's God's RETRIBUTION.
Quote
So.. Will of God is He Himself WANTED that people take another god/s
If God Wanted things to happen differently, God would have made things happen differently. In other words, they could not have willed to set up partners with God without God also Willing it. This is clearly what 81:29 and other Quranic verse indicates. More importantly, pure reason clearly dictates this. You cannot dance around this. You cannot avoid this. You cannot pretend 81:29 does not exist. You cannot reject that it's perfection for evil to suffer. God could have killed them all before they set up partners. God could have just not created them. Do not forget, it is God who Guides and Misguides. But God only misguides the wicked.

2:26 God does not shy away from citing the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who acknowledge, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the unappreciative, they say, "What does God want with this example?" He lets many stray by it, and He guides many, but He only lets stray the evildoers.

Nothing you do or will is independently of the Will of God/Existence. This does not mean you do not have free will or that you do not deserve reward/punishment. You choose what God Wants you to choose. You still choose at the end of the day. If God Wills x to choose y, then x literally chooses y. It is not the case that God forced x to choose y. God gave x free-will and knew x would choose y in circumstance z. God brings about circumstance z.

...God is not to change what is in a people until they change what is within themselves. If God wanted to harm a people, then there is no turning Him back, nor will they have any protector against Him. (13:11)

Quote
I keep repeating and emphasizing but you failed not 99% but 100% to grasp what is WILL of God and WILLINGNESS/WANT of God... Even you didn't understand the two types I presented...

You did not present two types. You said in what case God Wills nothing (God just knows), in another case God Wills something. Which clearly contradicts 81:29 and pure reason. Why do you not see this obvious contradiction???

Quote
But God let the freewill of human to prevail... Further I pointed out in my previous threads that if God wanted He would have stopped that girl being raped... There are cases God helps and showing mercy and save from six disaster... God not interfere in every  human action.. Coz it is a test for us... That's why God says if He willed He would have made everyone one nation and guided all of us... In that case it is not freewill but God's totall control... Guidance is His choice to whome it deserves.. We can't will God's guidance, Mercy,  Help, God's destruction etc etc. That's God's will and willingness as well.  We can only will what we actually can will.. Beyond our capacity  we can't will...
It may be that the woman who was raped becomes a better person as a result. But the fact that she would not willingly become a better person without that kind of ordeal, makes her evil and deserving of being raped.

Quote
But you took the clear verse totally opposite thinking that we can't will anything at all whether it happens or not... But truth is We can will independently... That's why God says they plan and We plan and we are best of planners. They plan means they have to will first...

So you are saying they plan ahead of God the All-knowing? The One that knows who will go to Hell and who will go to Heaven in advance? This is problematic.

Quote
Say God will before we do anything that we will  do tomorrow?
So that we do not wrongly think that we can do anything independently of God. This is good because we recognise that all good is from God. It's also good because we know that everything is in God's Hands. God is Guardian over all things. God is responsible for God/Existence Being Perfect. Not us. So we can peacefully surrender.

Answer directly please. Can you will anything independently of God? Can you will anything wherein which God wants you to will something else? Can you will to be evil, without God also wanting you to will to be evil?

Peace

nimnimak_11

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2020, 01:52:26 PM »
peace -- no, impossible to sin before birth didn't eat from that tree.
only ate from trees like the two young fig trees I'm looking at now.

2:233 ... لا not تكلف burdened نفس soul الا except وسعها capacity its لا not تضار made to suffer والده walidatun/parent (maternal) بولدها in (due to) offspring hers ولا and not مولود mawludun/parent (paternal) له to him بولده in (due to) offspring his ...

17:36 ولا and not تقف thou pursue ما what ليس not is لك to you به in it علم knowledge ان indeed السمع the hearing والبصر and the sight والفواد and the heart كل each اوليك those كان be عنه about it مسيولا questioned of
17:37 ولا and not تمش thou walk في in الارض the land مرحا insolent of انك indeed you لن never تخرق breach الارض the land ولن and never تبلغ thou reach الجبل the mountains طولا height of
17:38 كل each ذلك such كان be سييه evil its عند near ربكم lord yours كروها disliked of
17:39 ذلك such مما from what اوحي inspires اليك to you ربك lord your من of الحكمه the wisdom ولا and not تجعل thou make مع with الله the god الها deity of اخر another فتلقي so receive في in جهنم abyss ملوما blameworthy of مدحورا forsaken of

31:33 يايها O you الناس the people اتقوا heeds ye of ربكم lord yours واخشوا and fears ye of يوما day of لا not يجزي availed والد walidun/parent عن about ولده walidihi/offspring (born/unborn) his ولا and not مولود mawludun/who offspring/born/begot هو he جاز avail عن about والده walidihi/parent his شييا thing of ان indeed وعد promise الله the god حق true فلا so not تغرنكم let deceive you الحيه the life الدنيا the world ولا and not يغرنكم let deceive you بالله in the god الغرور the deceiver


https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/31/vers/33?handschrift=107



Peace

I don't see how you can avoid concluding that we all ate from the tree:

So, the devil caused them to slip from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said: "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on the earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time." Adam then received words from His Lord, so He forgave him; He is the Forgiver, the Merciful. We said, "Descend from it all of you, so when the guidance comes from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve." 2:36-38

Do you think 2:38 is just talking about 3 beings (Adam, his wife, and Satan)? I do not think this. I think that verse is in reference to all of us.

jkhan

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2020, 06:36:16 PM »
Peace brother

I responded. Tell me what specific point I didn't respond to. In any case, this isn't primarily about challenging someone. This is about having beliefs that are not contradictory or paradoxical. I do not mean to say this an insulting way, but perhaps you need to learn in this instance. Perhaps it is you who needs guidance regarding this matter and not me. I will respond to your questions point by point, and I will not answer your questions with another question. So please answer my questions directly. This is surely better and probably more indicative of strength in one's position.I see your point, so I will clarify mine. Only evil deserves to be harmed (yes or no?). God deserves to always get what God Wants and this always happens. If you set up partners with God, it's because God Wanted this to happen. Obviously, this is because you want this to happen. It's like the devil seeking respite, and God granting it respite. God Wanted to give Satan respite. God Willed for Satan to be respited. So God always gets what God deserves even if there are those who are evil in relation to God because God Satisfies Itself by Punishing those who are evil. If God could not Satisfy Itself, why would God create them in the first place? God Knew x would become evil, God Knew that God would punish x brutally. God brought this about because this is Perfection. It's Perfection for evil to suffer. Suffering is one thing that evil is good for, just as oil is one thing that's good for frying eggs. Willingly or unwillingly we all serve God. In other words, we either serve God willingly, or we suffer unwillingly. If you are evil, God Wants to punish you. God deserves to punish you because you have viewed God as imperfect and you deserve to be punished for the same reason. Objectively speaking, you did not wrong anyone other than yourself. You were unfair or wrong in your attitude towards God, but you did not wrong God (because you did not harm God), you wronged yourself (because you chose to be such that it becomes perfection for you to be harmed against your will and against your best interest). This is Perfection.

If you harmed God like a woman is truly harmed when she is raped, that's a different matter. If God Allowed Itself to be wronged, then God is imperfect or evil. If God Allows a woman to be wronged, then God is imperfect or evil. So I ask you again, x rapes y. y is harmed against her will and against her best interest. Did y deserve to be harmed? I REPLIED ALREADY.. If no, then God is imperfect and evil. If yes, then y got what y deserved. When you rejected God, you did not harm God against Its Will and against Its best interest. God is always Perfectly Satisfied. What about the woman that x raped? She was truly harmed by x. Did she deserve this?Because God Wants to Punish them. Because it's perfection for evil to suffer. Evil chooses or consents to being evil. The rapist assesses that he is physically superior to the woman, and then rapes her. He acts in a manner that amounts to saying "that which is superior is justified in harming that which is inferior than it". So what will become of the rapist when God deals with him? If the rapist is put in Hell, can anyone other than the rapist be blamed for him being harmed against his will and against his best interest. Sure, the rapist might blame God for his suffering. The rapist would have to reject that it's perfection for him to suffer. He cannot do this rationally.

To omit or negate this perfection (evil suffering), is imperfection. It's sadistic to satisfy yourself by harming another, but in the context of God, it's Perfection. It's God's RETRIBUTION.If God Wanted things to happen differently, God would have made things happen differently. In other words, they could not have willed to set up partners with God without God also Willing it. This is clearly what 81:29 and other Quranic verse indicates. More importantly, pure reason clearly dictates this. You cannot dance around this. You cannot avoid this. You cannot pretend 81:29 does not exist. You cannot reject that it's perfection for evil to suffer. God could have killed them all before they set up partners. God could have just not created them. Do not forget, it is God who Guides and Misguides. But God only misguides the wicked.

2:26 God does not shy away from citing the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who acknowledge, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the unappreciative, they say, "What does God want with this example?" He lets many stray by it, and He guides many, but He only lets stray the evildoers.

Nothing you do or will is independently of the Will of God/Existence. This does not mean you do not have free will or that you do not deserve reward/punishment. You choose what God Wants you to choose. You still choose at the end of the day. If God Wills x to choose y, then x literally chooses y. It is not the case that God forced x to choose y. God gave x free-will and knew x would choose y in circumstance z. God brings about circumstance z.

...God is not to change what is in a people until they change what is within themselves. If God wanted to harm a people, then there is no turning Him back, nor will they have any protector against Him. (13:11)

You did not present two types. You said in what case God Wills nothing (God just knows), in another case God Wills something. Which clearly contradicts 81:29 and pure reason. Why do you not see this obvious contradiction???
It may be that the woman who was raped becomes a better person as a result. But the fact that she would not willingly become a better person without that kind of ordeal, makes her evil and deserving of being raped.

So you are saying they plan ahead of God the All-knowing? YES.. GOD LET US LIVE WITH FREEWILL TO TEST US, SO WE PLAN  WE WILL.. GOD KNOWS OF COURSE..BUT GOD DIDNT PLAN WHAT WE PLAN..THAT'S NOT TEST OR FREEWILL THEN..  The One that knows who will go to Hell and who will go to Heaven in advance? HE KNOWS... THAT DOENT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE... IT IS LIKE GOD QUESTUONED IBLEES WHY WERE YOU NOT AMONG THE SIBMITTED TO ADAM.. GOD KNOWS.. This is problematic. NOTHING IS PROBLEMATIC... GOD KNKWS DOESNT MEAN GOD PLAN.. BJT IN HIS RECORDS... CERTAIN MATTERS GOD INVOLVE DIRECTLY AND CERTAIN GOD DOESN'T.. GOD SPOKE TO MUSA.. IT IS GODS WILL AND NOT MUSA'S...
So that we do not wrongly think that we can do anything independently of God. This is good because we recognise that all good is from God. It's also good because we know that everything is in God's Hands. God is Guardian over all things. God is responsible for God/Existence Being Perfect. Not us. So we can peacefully surrender.

Answer directly please. Can you will anything independently of God? YES... COZ GOD HAS GIVEN FREEWILL.. Can you will anything wherein which God wants you to will something else? WE CAN ALWAYS WILL.. BUT WHAT WE WILL ALWAYS NOT HAPPEN . IF GOD WANTED SOMETHING ELSE THEN WHAT GOD WILLED HAPPENS(I EXPLAINED ALREADY.. SUCH AS MERCY,  HELP,  GUIDANCE)  Can you will to be evil, YES OF COURSE... without God also wanting you to will to be evil? YES..  CHOOSING EVIL IS CGOICE OF MEN AND JIN.. GOD DOESN'T PLAY A ROLE HERE FOR US TO BE EVIL.. BUT WE ARE WILLING EVIL... GOD PLAYS A ROLE IF GOD WANTS TO SAVE FROM ONES EVIL ACT ANOTHER..

Peace

My question of does God deserve taking another deity with Him is crucial one,  but you deviate from your basic concept i.e. one deserve another evil act...

You didn't answer 81:27-29... Coz you indicate the verse 81:29 separate claiming that No one can will anything... It is not that no one can will anything by that verse.. No one can will straight path though they willed God has to will their guidance... That's the cream and the essence of those three verses combined...
You keep repeating the DESERVE factor but I have already clarified...

god knows everything doesn't mean God interfere in what our dirty heart thinks... It is like we definitely know we die one day.. Don't we... But we live a life just leaving aside the death... Same God knows our destiny where we end up.. Everything every step we take... He knows.. But He let us live and finish the rest. ....thats freewill... He knows doesn't mean action do take place automatically... He knows but He make it happen...  For example He I get birth.. He knows is not enough He has to make it real... God promises.. He knows He promised.. That's not enough He has to do... All Knowing is just a one attribute of God.. Don't restrict God with it only



nimnimak_11

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2020, 08:44:30 AM »
My question of does God deserve taking another deity with Him is crucial one,  but you deviate from your basic concept i.e. one deserve another evil act...

You didn't answer 81:27-29... Coz you indicate the verse 81:29 separate claiming that No one can will anything... It is not that no one can will anything by that verse.. No one can will straight path though they willed God has to will their guidance... That's the cream and the essence of those three verses combined...
You keep repeating the DESERVE factor but I have already clarified...

god knows everything doesn't mean God interfere in what our dirty heart thinks... It is like we definitely know we die one day.. Don't we... But we live a life just leaving aside the death... Same God knows our destiny where we end up.. Everything every step we take... He knows.. But He let us live and finish the rest. ....thats freewill... He knows doesn't mean action do take place automatically... He knows but He make it happen...  For example He I get birth.. He knows is not enough He has to make it real... God promises.. He knows He promised.. That's not enough He has to do... All Knowing is just a one attribute of God.. Don't restrict God with it only

Ok. I'm gonna summarise our discussion and reply to your post at the same time:

I said whatever happens, happens because that is what God fully Wants/Wills. I used 81:29 to back this up.

You said that I am claiming that no one can will anything. This is not what I am saying. I am saying we can will things, but whatever we will, was what God Willed for us to will in advance. If I choose to eat a cake, I certainly chose to eat the cake, but God Wanted me to choose to eat the cake before I even chose to eat the cake. I am not taking my choosing out of the equation. You mistakenly think that I'm saying nothing is willed by us. No, I am only saying nothing is willed by us independently of the Will of God. Whatever we will, is also Willed by God. This is literally what 81:29 is saying.

Think of it this way, God Knows everything that could happen with regards to all free-willed beings. God then chooses the best occurrence and sets things in motion. My choosing to eat a cake on Sunday at 10 pm, was Known in advance by God. God also Knew that if things happened a little differently, I would have chosen something differently on Sunday at 10 pm. God Calculates and Measures everything in advance. Nothing happens independently of God's Knowledge or Will. Do not forget, God Creates and Sets in motion in an Omniscient manner. This literally amounts to saying everything is as God Wants/Wills it to be.

20:50 He (Moses) said, "Our Lord is the One who gave everything its creation, then guided."

You say I didn't answer 81:28-29. Ask yourself, are you truly sincere to the Truth in this discussion? If yes, then which part of "you cannot will anything is 81:29 unclear on? If I will/choose to eat a cake, that's me willing something. Can I will something or anything without God also Willing it? Do you not see that if you reject, you would be contradicting the Quran? What is more important is that you would be contradicting pure reason. How is God Omnipotent or Perfect if something happens independently of Its Will or without God fully Wanting it to happen?

In addition to the above, I am not yet clear on whether you take the Will of God and the Knowledge of God and the Guidance of God to mean the same thing or not. They are clearly different things. Guidance is guidance, knowledge is knowledge, will is will.

Do you not see that if Existence has even an atom's weight of evil in it, then by definition, our Lord/Existence, God, is imperfect? Do you not see that if x rapes y, then this must be because it was perfection for this to happen all things considered. Provided that y suffered against her will and against her best interest, y got punished because y was evil, and x further determines his soul as being evil and perfect for Hell (provided that x acted on evil intent). Two birds, one stone.

6:65 Say, "He is able to send retribution from above you or from below your feet, or He will make you belong to opposing factions, then He will let you taste the might of each other." See how We cite the signs, perhaps they may comprehend.

Perhaps x chose to join an opposing faction, perhaps x was born into an opposing faction. Whatever it was, God Willed x to belong to an opposing faction. Perhaps x's faction wanted to dominate an opposing faction with evil intent, seeking to kill the opposing faction's children and rape their women and enslave their men. Where the opposing faction is lacking in sincerity to God, this become a hypothetical possibility. Where the opposing faction is sufficiently sincere to God, this become hypothetically impossible. Perhaps x's faction wanted to preach Islam and saw the opposing faction's rulers as raping women and killing children, so x's faction attacks the opposing faction with good intent.

Whatever happens, however it happens (willingly on x's part or unwillingly on x's part) happens because God Wants/Wills it to happen. All of it:

...If any good befalls them, they say, "This is from God," and if any bad befalls them, they say, "This is from you!" Say, "All is from God;" what is wrong with these people, they barely understand anything said! (4:78)

Do you agree now that you cannot will anything except if it is also Willed by God?

jkhan

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2020, 10:08:18 AM »
Ok. I'm gonna summarise our discussion and reply to your post at the same time:

I said whatever happens, happens because that is what God fully Wants/Wills. I used 81:29 to back this up.

You said that I am claiming that no one can will anything. This is not what I am saying. I am saying we can will things, but whatever we will, was what God Willed for us to will in advance. If I choose to eat a cake, I certainly chose to eat the cake, but God Wanted me to choose to eat the cake before I even chose to eat the cake. I am not taking my choosing out of the equation. You mistakenly think that I'm saying nothing is willed by us. No, I am only saying nothing is willed by us independently of the Will of God. Whatever we will, is also Willed by God. This is literally what 81:29 is saying.

Think of it this way, God Knows everything that could happen with regards to all free-willed beings. God then chooses the best occurrence and sets things in motion. My choosing to eat a cake on Sunday at 10 pm, was Known in advance by God. God also Knew that if things happened a little differently, I would have chosen something differently on Sunday at 10 pm. God Calculates and Measures everything in advance. Nothing happens independently of God's Knowledge or Will. Do not forget, God Creates and Sets in motion in an Omniscient manner. This literally amounts to saying everything is as God Wants/Wills it to be.

20:50 He (Moses) said, "Our Lord is the One who gave everything its creation, then guided."

You say I didn't answer 81:28-29. Ask yourself, are you truly sincere to the Truth in this discussion? If yes, then which part of "you cannot will anything is 81:29 unclear on? If I will/choose to eat a cake, that's me willing something. Can I will something or anything without God also Willing it? Do you not see that if you reject, you would be contradicting the Quran? What is more important is that you would be contradicting pure reason. How is God Omnipotent or Perfect if something happens independently of Its Will or without God fully Wanting it to happen?

In addition to the above, I am not yet clear on whether you take the Will of God and the Knowledge of God and the Guidance of God to mean the same thing or not. They are clearly different things. Guidance is guidance, knowledge is knowledge, will is will.

Do you not see that if Existence has even an atom's weight of evil in it, then by definition, our Lord/Existence, God, is imperfect? Do you not see that if x rapes y, then this must be because it was perfection for this to happen all things considered. Provided that y suffered against her will and against her best interest, y got punished because y was evil, and x further determines his soul as being evil and perfect for Hell (provided that x acted on evil intent). Two birds, one stone.

6:65 Say, "He is able to send retribution from above you or from below your feet, or He will make you belong to opposing factions, then He will let you taste the might of each other." See how We cite the signs, perhaps they may comprehend.

Perhaps x chose to join an opposing faction, perhaps x was born into an opposing faction. Whatever it was, God Willed x to belong to an opposing faction. Perhaps x's faction wanted to dominate an opposing faction with evil intent, seeking to kill the opposing faction's children and rape their women and enslave their men. Where the opposing faction is lacking in sincerity to God, this become a hypothetical possibility. Where the opposing faction is sufficiently sincere to God, this become hypothetically impossible. Perhaps x's faction wanted to preach Islam and saw the opposing faction's rulers as raping women and killing children, so x's faction attacks the opposing faction with good intent.

Whatever happens, however it happens (willingly on x's part or unwillingly on x's part) happens because God Wants/Wills it to happen. All of it:

...If any good befalls them, they say, "This is from God," and if any bad befalls them, they say, "This is from you!" Say, "All is from God;" what is wrong with these people, they barely understand anything said! (4:78)

Do you agree now that you cannot will anything except if it is also Willed by God?

Brother Nimnimak...peace

I understand that you elaborate within what you understood... It is very clear to me that you debate with what you understood and your intention is not to mock our understanding or to passtime...yiur intention is pure.. That anyone can receive from what you have written.. that's  why I persist with you in debate ... But unfortunately your explanation doesnt impress me to ponder that what your understanding is right and go on line with context of Quran.. .. Coz in my view,  you got the 81:27-29 ...as well 4:77-80 out of context...
If you can highlight 4:78 why not highlight 4:79... Brother don't deviate from the context of the verses.. One with another is much Interconnected... 4:79...

People blame the Messenger saying that Evil fallen coz of Messenger... How come messenger be responsible when evil falls if he has not done any evil to them.. Life is from God in which good and evil befalls us.. Don't deviate from the context.. We don't know what actually they experienced at that time to say and blame the messenger... Don't confine your vista of thought to one angle..
Why God says in 4:79 that if good befalls it is from Allah and if evil befalls it is from self. 
so it is very clear we are responsible for our evil.. Aren't we? Previous verse they put the complaint on Messenger.. God spoke against it.. Freed the messenger from the blame..
Context is very significant here in verse 4:77-80 like in verses 81:27-29...

Suppose if the verses are within the context of battle...  Then these people perhaps would have gained booty.. So they would have claimed it is from Allah when that GOOD happened to them..
And at the same time.. In between battle they would have lost the lives of their companions or their uppehand gone from their grip.. so they would have said when that Evil befallen it is coz of the Messenger since He is the leader... So God rightly said everything is from Allah.. Here THEIR WILL is not relevant but what God HELPED and why god didn't help is imperative .. Thats good and bad.. In fact that is from God.. They can't win coz they willed.. They can't lose coz they willed.. But only God can make them win or lose..so God rightly said everything from God

But in the verse 4:79 God explains the ultimate truth.. If good befalls coz of God help,  mercy etc.. If evil befalls coz of our self... That's General... Like the example of rapist and the victim.. Victim may be innocent but evil of rapist is the reason.. God is not responsible for both victim and rapist..
If not taken with the context of the verse,  both 4:78 and 4:79 obviously contradict..

Try to understand the Will of God and knowledge/all-knowing of God in various angle..

When God asked " Am I not your Lord? It was all our will to say Yes.. And it was not compulsion or God's willingness for us to say Yes.. But we agreed Lord is God.. But it is in His RECORD, that's will.. Willingness is when God involve with mercy,  help guidance destruction,  loss victory.. Etc..

So.. I don't agree with you.. I wrote this since you asked as a question whether I agree now.. You don't bring anything convincing to agree with you..

Let me add this point as well to this thread... Note the difference in 4:79 where God used WHATEVER while in 4:78 God used within the context as WHEN


Noon waalqalami

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2020, 02:19:43 PM »
I don't see how you can avoid concluding that we all ate from the tree:

سلم salam/peace علىك alayka/upon you (sing.)

2:36 فازلهما so made them slip dual الشىطن the devil ...
 فاخرجهما so evicts them dual مما from what كانا were dual

7:19 وىادم and O Adam اسكن settles انت thou وزوجك and spouse your الجنه the garden
 فكلا so eat dual من from حىث anyplace شىتما like you dual
 ولا and not تقربا thou approach dual هذه this الشجره the tree
 فتكونا so being dual من from/of الظلمىن the wrongdoers

7:20 فوسوس so whisper لهما for them dual الشىطن the devil
 لىبدى to make apparent/manifest لهما to them dual
 ما what وورى concealed عنهما about them dual
 من of سوتهما shame theirs dual
 وقال and said ما not نهكما prohibit you dual
 ربكما lord yours dual عن about هذه this الشجره the tree
 الا except ان that تكونا thou become dual ملكىن controllers two
 او or تكونا thou become dual من from الخلدىن the eternally living

7:21 وقاسمهما and swore them dual
 انى indeed I لكما for you dual لمن surely among الناصحىن the sincere advisers

7:22 فدلهما so guile them dual بغرور in/by deception
 فلما so to what (when) ذاقا taste dual الشجره the tree
 بدت apparent لهما for them dual سوتهما shame theirs dual
 وطفقا and began dual ىخصفن fasten dual علىهما upon them dual من from ورق leaf الجنه the garden
 وناداهما and call them dual ربهما lord theirs dual
 الم did not انهكما I prohibit dual عن about تلكما those what الشجره the tree
 واقل and I say لكما for you dual ان indeed الشىطن the devil لكما for you dual عدو enemy مبىن clear

7:23 قلا said dual ربنا lord ours ظلمنا wrong we of انفسنا souls ours

20:116 واذ wa-idh/and when (i.e. past event) قلنا said we of للملىكه to the controllers …

20:117 فقلنا so said we of ىادم O Adam ان indeed هذا this عدو enemy لك to you ولزوجك and to spouse your
 فلا so not ىخرجنكما evicted be you dual من from الجنه the garden فتشقى so thou agonize

20:121 فاكلا so ate dual منها from it …


you got the 81:27-29 ...as well 4:77-80 out of context...

peace, yes cross reference and context …

4:74 ... ىقتل fighted فى in سبىل pathway الله the god...
4:77 ... فلما so to what (when) كتب written/decree علىهم upon them القتال the battle
 تولوا turn they of الا except قلىلا little of منهم from/among them...

4:78 اىنما wherever of تكونوا thou be ye of ىدرككم overtaken you (pl.) الموت the death
 ولو and in case كنتم be you فى in بروج constructs (towers) مشىده lofty
 وان and if تصبهم it afflict them حسنه best/goodness
 ىقولوا speaketh they of هذه this من from عند near/with الله the god
 وان and if تصبهم it afflict them سىىه evil/calamity
 ىقولوا speaketh they of هذه this من from عندك near/with you (i.e. the messenger)
 قل say كل each (goodness or calamity theirs) من from عند near/with الله the god
 فمال so what is هولا those القوم the folk لا not ىكادون neared being ىفقهون understanding حدىثا narration of

4:79 ما what اصابك hits/befalls you (sing.) من of حسنه best/goodness فمن so from الله the god
 وما and what اصابك hits you (sing.) من from سىىه evil/calamity فمن so from نفسك soul your (sing.)
 وارسلنك and sent we you (sing.) للناس to the people رسولا messenger of
 وكفى and enough بالله in the god شهىدا witness of


https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/4/vers/78?handschrift=73




ade_cool

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2020, 12:13:53 AM »
Salam nimnimak_11,

Quote
I think you must understand how to approach the book, before you can hope to correctly understand it.


How one approaches the book depends on his conviction.

  • Some people are just being exposed to the book. So for these people they definitely will not approach the book as from God.

    [2:23] And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your  witnesses other than God if you are truthful.

    And if they are sincerely seeking the truth, they will eventually realize that the book is from God.
  • Some people are convinced that the book is from God. They study the book properly seeking guidance from God.
  • Some people claim to believe in the book but never actually read the book by themselves. These people are unaware that what they believe actually against the teaching what they claim to believe (unfortunately, some people took advantage of that situation by writing Kitab saying it is from God to gain something)

    [2:78] And among them (Bani Israel - whom God gave the Book) are ummi who do not know the Book except by hearsay, and they only conjecture.
    [2:79] So woe to those who write the Book with their hands then say: “This is from God,” so that they can purchase with it a cheap  price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to  them for what they gained.
  • Some people hate what God sent down.
  • Some people have believed that the book is from God. But overtime they grow arrogant in that when they don't understand the verses, they start saying the book turned out to be the work of mortal.

    [7:175] And recite to them the news of the person whom Our revelations were given to him, but he removed himself from them, and thus  the devil followed him, and he became of those who went astray.

    [74:18] He thought and he analyzed.
    [74:19] So woe to him for how he thought.
    [74:20] Then woe to him for how he thought.
    [74:21] Then he looked.
    [74:22] Then he frowned and became bad tempered.
    [74:23] Then he turned away and was arrogant.
    [74:24] So he said: “This is nothing except the magic of old.”
    [74:25] “This is nothing except the saying of a mortal.”

Quote
The most obvious approach is that any interpretation you take from it, is in line with pure reason. After that, any interpretation you make must be in line with your genuine and sincere sense of good. The Quran is like life. At times, its appearance is such that it does not look as though it is from God (just as what we see in our lives does not look as though Existence Is Perfect). But I think there is enough there for anyone with sincerity to truth and humility, to try and get closer to God. To increase in reverence. To increase in goodness. Also, I think Arabic is an ideal language for this book. The root of words like Ha-qaf-qaf (which semantically highlight truth, justice, reality and other things) are so ideal in conveying the nature of God/Existence that I don't think any other language has grouped or organised or connected labels to semantics in such an ideal way with regards to making the right connections to understanding God and Its Perfection.

As things about it start to come together and make sense, you start to genuinely appreciate the book more and more. Not just for what it is in itself, but how perfectly appropriate and adequate it is for us in our current state. Just like this worldly life.

Thanks for you sharing your thought! I agree that sincerity is key here.


Wassalam

ade_cool

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Re: Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2020, 01:37:56 AM »
Salam Anoushirvan,

Salam,

I wrote above

This might be slightly off-topic.

Let's begin with Arabic as my Syrian teacher explained.

When you read a sentence in Arabic, there is often an ambiguity on the words because in general the diacritical signs are not marked.
So how do you know which word is the correct one when you read ?

Well, you need to have first an idea of the context where the word is used and then the context removes ambiguity and you can finish reading the sentence.
The context can be internal to the structure of the sentence, I mean grammatical, it represents the signifier.
The context can be external to the structure of the sentence, it represents the signified.

Native Arabic people do it unconsciously but non-native Arabic people must do it explicitly at least at the beginning.
OK

Quote
Now for Qur'an a similar idea applies.
Sure, you can read the text as long as you want. And I did that for several years in the frame of traditional Islam.

I have then discovered in 2015 that other readings of Qur'an than the ones proposed by traditional Islam could be possible thanks to Free-minds.org, its articles and its forum.

And that was the problem: a lot of readings and interpretations sounded plausible though the text claims it is "clear" and "obvious" in various verses.

But how could one claim that Qur'an is "clear" and "obvious" if so many readings and interpretations are possible ?

Because it is concealed? So that only purified ones can understand?

[56:77] It is an honorable Quran.
[56:78] In a concealed Book.
[56:79] None can grasp it, except those purified.

Because it is so heavy?

[73:4] Or a little more, and arrange the Quran in its arrangement.
[73:5] We will place upon you a saying which is heavy.


That so much amount of ink will be needed to elaborate His Kalimah?

[31:27] And if all the trees on the earth were made into pens, and the ocean were supplied by seven more oceans, the words of God  would not run out. God is Noble, Wise.

Quote
We can even read interpretations that are only possible because of scientific discoveries made in the 20th CE (by non-Muslims by the way).
But science is not bound by any Qur'anic agenda, and does not hesitate to discard theories that were previously well accepted, so maybe we should wait for a couple centuries more the time Qur'an becomes much clearer, no ?

Yup, this is a privilege that we have in this era with the advance of science and technology ...but people in the past also had their own privilege that we don't have ...

Quote
This complaint often comes again and again in the topics on this forum and elsewhere.

This is a contradiction. Sometimes I read here or there that more or less any reading should be valid. But this sounds just a workaround position to avoid admitting there is indeed a problem.

So reading doesn't mean you will understand, and as I did before, you can read during years, even all your life, without ever understanding the text and its purpose if you don't possess the right key.

The reason is the either lack of context or erroneous context about Qur'an and why it was written that would remove ambiguities.

At least in traditional Islam, there are the so-called asbab an-nuzul that attempt to frame tafsirs, even though the asbab an-nuzul are completely fictitious.
Yet interpreting Qur'an within the frame of the asbab an-nuzul leaves the door open to many possibilities like zahir vs. batin in Sufism.

But in my opinion the situation seems even worse for Qur'an alone interpretations.
Wishing to get rid of hadiths, asbab an-nuzul and tafsirs of traditional Islam for the sake of interpreting Qur'an is nice.

But this process, although necessary in first step, has gone too far into believing that interpretation of Qur'an is to be sought in Qur'an alone itself.
This is weird and leads to a lot of circular reasoning that I often read here and there.

Everyone has different background and is guided differently.

Somebody with expertise in geology might be able to better understand verses that touch the subject.
Somebody with expertise in archaeology might be able to better understand verses that touch the subject.
Somebody with expertise in quantum physics might be able to better understand verses that touch the subject.
Somebody with expertise in astronomy might be able to better understand verses that touch the subject.
Somebody with jews background might be able to better relate verses regarding Moses.
Somebody with christian background might be able to better relate verses regarding Jesus.

Quote
It leads to pure non-sense, similar to what we hear in traditional Islam, that the true "tawrat" of Moses or the true 'injeel" of Jesus have been irremediably corrupted by Jews and Christian and thus, not available anymore. While, on the contrary, there is no proof that the Bible we know today has been corrupted since the 7th CE.

I am not sure if I understand regarding "this leads to pure non-sense".

Quote
While Qur'an invokes a lot of times Biblical figures, Abraham, Moses, and here Joseph, etc, it is hardly that the assertions of Qur'an about them are compared to the Jewish and Christian traditions, as if Qur'an mentioned biblical figures by coincidence and without any reference to the Jewish tradition.

It sounds as if the stance attributed to Umar ibn Khattab “As for the books you mention, if there is in it what complies with the Book of God, then it is already there and is not needed and if what is in these books contradict the Book of God there is no need for it. And you can then proceed in destroying them.” were still to be applied.


This is simply severing the text from its native roots.
Probably, people believing in Qur'an alone interpretation consciously cut Qur'an from its roots because, since they believe the text is directly authored by God Himself, it must eternally valid in any situation, whether in the past, in present, or in future, and therefore it must not be tied to any historical context.

Surely when a text has no root, you can plant it anywhere, then unfold it and plant it elsewhere again, right ?

I am sorry I don't get what you are trying to say here ...can you elaborate please?


Wassalam,