Lesson from Yousuf's story Ch 12

[jkhan]

Does God plan our good part of lives or it happens according to our freewill and choice or circumstances?

Every believer believes that God knows the future... There is no second thought in it I presume..
But it is complicated in a way...
Let's take the complete story of Yousuf, his brothers and their father...
Yousuf has already seen the dream.. So it is to happen... And it did happen and Yakub knew dream is something significant so wanted to hide from his other sons..
Yousuf's brothers were rude in ignorance.. They did what they found good for themselves .. They planned.. They lied. They in the end threw Yousuf into a well... Unless they put him in the well Yousuf wouldn't have been sold for a petty price.. So we can see it has a kind of pattern.. By any means we can't accept what his brothers did.  But.. Yousuf has already seen the dream.. So somehow Yousuf has to reach Misr in order for him to become better than his brothers in strength and power and most importantly to accomplish his dream...his dream won't be accomplished by living by the side of his father.. Is Yousuf becoming powerful in Misr a plan of God?  For me it seems pretty obvious God planned.. Coz dream is verdict to it.. But.. Is it God's plan to put Yousuf in well so that Yousuf would reach to the destination? Yes or No? Would God plan such a thing to innocent boy?  No.. If God planned then brothers are not culprits literally.. But in God's plan so many unfortunate people converge together to make it true.. Coz it is their lives.. They do what they want...
So.. Is it God only planned Yousuf to reach in heights in Misr... Whoever involve in doing so is not relevant.. Coz.. Yousuf brothers did a massive crime by doing so..God will not involve in crime or evil to get his Plan executed .. They separated Yousuf from his father... But did God plan to separate Yousuf literally.. Or it did happen this way but God could or would have done it any way even if the brothers didn't threw Yousuf in well.. Absolutely possible..

What do you think? Are Yousuf brothers innocent in this story since Yousuf's vision should come true ultimately so they were part and parcel of it?.

Does it teach us that whatever happens in our life we need to be patient until God make a way out?

Coz.. Who is responsible for Yakub, Yousuf's father's tears and worries for years after years? Is it God or Yousuf brothers? Somehow, Yousuf's father spent bulk of his life thinking of his loving son so did Yousuf...
Or else that's part of Dream's fulfilment.. Or We need to tolerate certain things in life until God gives us happiness..?

Could that dream ever be fulfilled without Yousuf's separation? 

[jkhan]

So having hard time before having a real good time is God's plan.. Yousuf went through all hardships from the time his brothers went against him for nothing of his fault ... After years of mental and physical suffering he got his ultimate pleasue in this world...
Can this be common to any believer to go through hard time before real good time...

But what about those who involved in giving Yousuf a hard time... Are they kind of transitory visitors specially assigned to be part of testing process or  they are real culprits... Without them no hard time also... But they end up as wrong doers unfortunately ... For example as we know, Yousuf brothers gave hard time,  Leaders gave hard time,  women gave hard time.. Prison played role in giving hard time... Why he deserved all these prior to get peace and wealth...was Yousuf a bad person to deserve? I don't think so.. After all that was Yousuf's life.. So.. Was it a good dream taking into consideration his entire life... It is like a classical movie for me .. I knew something good is gonna happen to Yousuf when I started reading the story first time.
So going through hard time, not one day or a month or a year or dacades is not barrier for believers to keep hope.... I feel like real believers life will be happy before they die.. Do anyone agree with it?
Leave aside Yousuf because he was young somehow but waited ages... Interesting to look at Yakub.. He kept faith untiring... Finally in the old age he was rewarded for his hope...
Yakub was tested in old age while Yousuf was tested in tender age up to matured youth probably...

Strong message here I sense... Believers should never lose hope and waver regardless of what issues on their head... But remember mere hope in God can make miracle in life... I mean without doing anything serious to achieve it..  Did Yakub practically do anything tangible to get his son back... Or did Yousuf do practically anything to see his father again... They but kept faith....
It further reminds me that in life people should do certain things to make things happen... But when you can't do anything and helpless the only option is having faith in God in order to get what you are looking for even though how impossible it could be..

I believe that... That's kind of miraculous destiny...

I have a hope and faith on two matters in which I can't do anything and let's see those two wishes get accomplished.... Let me wait and wait and see what God would do...

[nimnimak_11]

Does God plan our good part of lives or it happens according to our freewill and choice or circumstances?

Every believer believes that God knows the future... There is no second thought in it I presume..
But it is complicated in a way...
Let's take the complete story of Yousuf, his brothers and their father...
Yousuf has already seen the dream.. So it is to happen... And it did happen and Yakub knew dream is something significant so wanted to hide from his other sons..
Yousuf's brothers were rude in ignorance.. They did what they found good for themselves .. They planned.. They lied. They in the end threw Yousuf into a well... Unless they put him in the well Yousuf wouldn't have been sold for a petty price.. So we can see it has a kind of pattern.. By any means we can't accept what his brothers did.  But.. Yousuf has already seen the dream.. So somehow Yousuf has to reach Misr in order for him to become better than his brothers in strength and power and most importantly to accomplish his dream...his dream won't be accomplished by living by the side of his father.. Is Yousuf becoming powerful in Misr a plan of God?  For me it seems pretty obvious God planned.. Coz dream is verdict to it.. But.. Is it God's plan to put Yousuf in well so that Yousuf would reach to the destination? Yes or No? Would God plan such a thing to innocent boy?  No.. If God planned then brothers are not culprits literally.. But in God's plan so many unfortunate people converge together to make it true.. Coz it is their lives.. They do what they want...
So.. Is it God only planned Yousuf to reach in heights in Misr... Whoever involve in doing so is not relevant.. Coz.. Yousuf brothers did a massive crime by doing so..God will not involve in crime or evil to get his Plan executed .. They separated Yousuf from his father... But did God plan to separate Yousuf literally.. Or it did happen this way but God could or would have done it any way even if the brothers didn't threw Yousuf in well.. Absolutely possible..

What do you think? Are Yousuf brothers innocent in this story since Yousuf's vision should come true ultimately so they were part and parcel of it?.

Does it teach us that whatever happens in our life we need to be patient until God make a way out?

Coz.. Who is responsible for Yakub, Yousuf's father's tears and worries for years after years? Is it God or Yousuf brothers? Somehow, Yousuf's father spent bulk of his life thinking of his loving son so did Yousuf...
Or else that's part of Dream's fulfilment.. Or We need to tolerate certain things in life until God gives us happiness..?

Could that dream ever be fulfilled without Yousuf's separation?

God does not create something, or set something in motion, and then become surprised by what it created or what happens. God knows everything before it happens. Everything that happens, is fully in line with what God completely wants to the last atoms's weight. Anything other than this and you have an imperfect existence. Anything other than this is an insult to God and Perfection. Every detail that happens in your life, even if it's as simple as a headache, or just bumping into a wall accidentally, it was all willed by God. It was decreed in a record, before it was brought about. And if you knew all the premises with regards to why it happened, you would see that it wasn't just good that it happened. You would see that it was Perfection. Despair would be impossible for you, because you'd know that everything that happened was wholly innocent of evil. It was Perfection. To witness this, is a privilege. It is a mercy, a blessing to witness this.

No misfortune can happen on earth, or in yourselves, except it is decreed in a record, before We bring it about. This is easy for God to do. In order that you do not despair over anything that has passed you by, nor be exultant of anything He has bestowed upon you. God does not like those who are boastful, proud. (57:22-23)

Suppose a man harms a woman against her will. The man only succeeded in doing this, because God fully wanted the woman to be harmed against her will in that manner. For it to be anything other than this, is to suggest that God is to some extent useless, or that something happened that God did not want. This sort of belief would only harm the one who holds it. It is false. It describes God as being imperfect, which is absurd. It is at odds with any objective notion of Perfection (or that which no greater than can be conceived).

The woman who was harmed deserved to be harmed. It does not matter how it looks to us (like an an innocent woman was raped), the truth is, there is 0 evil/injustice in Existence, because it would take an evil almighty god to will such a thing to happen. Nothing happens independently of God's Will and God is wholly innocent of evil, therefore, Existence is wholly innocent of evil. There are of course evil people, people who recognise their intent to be evil, but persist with it anyway. The rapist did not wrong the woman, the rapist wronged himself, because God will probably punish him for his evil intent. Recall, that we have descended as enemies to one another (some of us to some of us) (so he will be harmed against his will and against his best interest...perhaps he will get raped in prison...perhaps he will have nightmare upon nightmare, melancholia, anxiety etc. Perhaps he will be given respite so that it become perfection for him to forever suffer Hell) if he does not effectively repent. Unless it is not perfection for him to be pardoned/forgiven.

If you knew all the premises in relation to the woman, you would recognise that her being harmed against her will, was perfection all things considered. Maybe it was the only way to get her to be more righteous and she would have wanted to become more righteous (just like Joseph wanted God to divert their scheming away from him). Maybe she was evil in ways that she shouldn't have been. Perhaps she did not respond to reason, or a genuine sense of good when she was supposed to (which would make her a zalem). She is on this planet, because she committed zulm, she treated God, the wholly innocent of evil, unfairly. To call That which has always been perfect to you evil, or less than perfect, is to be unfair to It. It warrants a loss of goodness.

Everything that happened to Joseph, was fully Willed by God. God chooses what everyone chooses. But everyone of course still chooses (because God wants this), everyone still exercises free-will. God makes the conditions for this. God does not change what is in a people until they change what is in themselves. God knows what we reveal and what we hide. God knows what we would do in every circumstance, and with what determinacy or certainty. Perhaps we'd only do x in circumstances like y 50% of the time. We must strive to become good, such that 100% of the time, we do good. How else can it be perfection for us to be in Heaven? Would you give Heaven to that which does not deserve it?

What happened to Joseph, will have been tied in relation to Adam seeking forgiveness and mercy from God after the original sin. All that happened to Joseph was, to my understanding, in line with Joseph being guided, purified, forgiven and shown mercy, by God. Those events were all key ingredients in producing a Joseph that is not of the losers. A Joseph that avoids the Retribution of Hell, for the Mercy of Heaven. A Joseph that is free-willingly, genuinely, morally good, worthy of Heaven.

It's perfection for everyone to get what they truly/perfectly deserve. Without God knowing what we reveal and what we hide, this would not happen. Joseph's brother committed evil, because their intent was evil. Objectively speaking, no evil occurred in Existence, because all that happened to Joseph, was Perfection. Obviously, even Joseph's brother recognised that God had indeed favoured Joseph over his brothers. Had they been as sinless as Joseph, they would have been equally favoured. Whoever's least evil in relation to God, is the most successful., because God rightfully/righteously favours him/her.

[huruf]

This that only harms happens to us if we are guilty is perverse. The child who becomes an orphan is guilty? No, you do not need to be guilty to suffer in whatever way. We do see it in fact that it is not so. Some eveils are earned, some are not. God gives that destiny. Destiny is not punishment but opportunity. Is is our trial to prove ourselves.

Bad choice of examplo on the other hand, a woman that is raped because she deserves it. ¿Where does God purport such a thing? Really perverse.

Salaam

[jkhan]

God does not create something, or set something in motion, and then become surprised by what it created or what happens. God knows everything before it happens. Everything that happens, is fully in line with what God completely wants to the last atoms's weight. Anything other than this and you have an imperfect existence. Anything other than this is an insult to God and Perfection. Every detail that happens in your life, even if it's as simple as a headache, or just bumping into a wall accidentally, it was all willed by God. It was decreed in a record, before it was brought about. And if you knew all the premises with regards to why it happened, you would see that it wasn't just good that it happened. You would see that it was Perfection. Despair would be impossible for you, because you'd know that everything that happened was wholly innocent of evil. It was Perfection. To witness this, is a privilege. It is a mercy, a blessing to witness this.

No misfortune can happen on earth, or in yourselves, except it is decreed in a record, before We bring it about. This is easy for God to do. In order that you do not despair over anything that has passed you by, nor be exultant of anything He has bestowed upon you. God does not like those who are boastful, proud. (57:22-23)

Suppose a man harms a woman against her will. The man only succeeded in doing this, because God fully wanted the woman to be harmed against her will in that manner. For it to be anything other than this, is to suggest that God is to some extent useless, or that something happened that God did not want. This sort of belief would only harm the one who holds it. It is false. It describes God as being imperfect, which is absurd. It is at odds with any objective notion of Perfection (or that which no greater than can be conceived).

The woman who was harmed deserved to be harmed. It does not matter how it looks to us (like an an innocent woman was raped), the truth is, there is 0 evil/injustice in Existence, because it would take an evil almighty god to will such a thing to happen. Nothing happens independently of God's Will and God is wholly innocent of evil, therefore, Existence is wholly innocent of evil. There are of course evil people, people who recognise their intent to be evil, but persist with it anyway. The rapist did not wrong the woman, the rapist wronged himself, because God will probably punish him for his evil intent. Recall, that we have descended as enemies to one another (some of us to some of us) (so he will be harmed against his will and against his best interest...perhaps he will get raped in prison...perhaps he will have nightmare upon nightmare, melancholia, anxiety etc. Perhaps he will be given respite so that it become perfection for him to forever suffer Hell) if he does not effectively repent. Unless it is not perfection for him to be pardoned/forgiven.

If you knew all the premises in relation to the woman, you would recognise that her being harmed against her will, was perfection all things considered. Maybe it was the only way to get her to be more righteous and she would have wanted to become more righteous (just like Joseph wanted God to divert their scheming away from him). Maybe she was evil in ways that she shouldn't have been. Perhaps she did not respond to reason, or a genuine sense of good when she was supposed to (which would make her a zalem). She is on this planet, because she committed zulm, she treated God, the wholly innocent of evil, unfairly. To call That which has always been perfect to you evil, or less than perfect, is to be unfair to It. It warrants a loss of goodness.

Everything that happened to Joseph, was fully Willed by God. God chooses what everyone chooses. But everyone of course still chooses (because God wants this), everyone still exercises free-will. God makes the conditions for this. God does not change what is in a people until they change what is in themselves. God knows what we reveal and what we hide. God knows what we would do in every circumstance, and with what determinacy or certainty. Perhaps we'd only do x in circumstances like y 50% of the time. We must strive to become good, such that 100% of the time, we do good. How else can it be perfection for us to be in Heaven? Would you give Heaven to that which does not deserve it?

What happened to Joseph, will have been tied in relation to Adam seeking forgiveness and mercy from God after the original sin. All that happened to Joseph was, to my understanding, in line with Joseph being guided, purified, forgiven and shown mercy, by God. Those events were all key ingredients in producing a Joseph that is not of the losers. A Joseph that avoids the Retribution of Hell, for the Mercy of Heaven. A Joseph that is free-willingly, genuinely, morally good, worthy of Heaven.

It's perfection for everyone to get what they truly/perfectly deserve. Without God knowing what we reveal and what we hide, this would not happen. Joseph's brother committed evil, because their intent was evil. Objectively speaking, no evil occurred in Existence, because all that happened to Joseph, was Perfection. Obviously, even Joseph's brother recognised that God had indeed favoured Joseph over his brothers. Had they been as sinless as Joseph, they would have been equally favoured. Whoever's least evil in relation to God, is the most successful., because God rightfully/righteously favours him/her.

Thank you...
Appreciate your attempt to explain your view in one of the very intricate topics. .
Let me ask a question based on one of your comment.. Below your quote...
"Suppose a man harms a woman against her will. The man only succeeded in doing this, because God fully wanted the woman to be harmed against her will in that manner"
That's a serious statement dude... Are you sure that you wrote it with intent or by mistake...
My question is..  If one is harmed by another, and the one who was harmed deserved harm coz God WANTED him or her to go through, THEN God is Evil... I don't mind if God destroys a nations of town etc etc.. Coz that He does with knowledge... That's entirely different..
But one harming another cannot be what God WANTS.. If so.. Why blame Satan...
That's why WILL of God WILLINGNESS of God two things...
The one harms and the one got harmed definitely in the will of  God otherwise things won't happen.. That's okay.. But definitely what happened is not the WILLINGNES of God ... Will of God is like a letting a thing to occur with His complete awareness but not coz He wants it to happen.. If I kill you it my intention and I am responsible for it and not God..but God let the incident to happen.. If He willed He could have stopped being you being killed by me..
For example God sends Musa to King pharoa to say to deliver the children of Israel.. What pharoa doing is under the will of God as of everything... But pharoa keeping the children of Israel as slaves is not the want / willingness of God.. God wants the children of Israel to be delivered not kept as slaves..
Or God says pharou killed innocent boys.. It is not the want of God that pharoa to kill innocent children of Israel.. Impossible.. God wanted to save them.. God gave pharoa the freedom so he was arrogant and he killed children and not coz those children deserved to be killed.. If those children deserved to be killed God doesn't need to say pharou killed innocent children.. That's bizzare.. I sense from your statement like God is Mastermind behind all thing  and put the blame on those who commit what God wants.. No way... God never ordered evil never support evil..
What logic is that dude?
God says avoid evil and do righteous good deed.. Such a God wants a girl to be raped by another coz she deserves to be raped by another.. So God wanted the raped and used the rapist and in  the end rapist is culprit and NOT God.. OMG... That's super nonsensical... I am so sorry.. Something seriously gone wrong somewhere to you to utter it...

Read my two earlier threads.. It is completely different to what you say...
God guide you and open your eyes if you have told this by mistake.. And if you are right let God guide me to understand  you...

[nimnimak_11]

That's a serious statement dude... Are you sure that you wrote it with intent or by mistake...

I'm sure I did not write it by mistake. I will try and show why I'm sure of what I have written.

My question is..  If one is harmed by another, and the one who was harmed deserved harm coz God WANTED him or her to go through, THEN God is Evil

God is only evil when injustice occurs. God is only evil when someone who does not deserve to be harmed is harmed. If a woman is raped, then God is definitely evil if the woman did not deserve to be raped all things considered. There's no way you can empirically find out if a woman who was raped deserved to be raped or not. You'd have to have all the premises, all the facts about her to be able to know if she deserved it or not. Only God knows what we reveal and what we hide, God fully knows what every man, woman, or angel, truly/perfectly deserve. Also do not forget, God does not lack generosity. We are not on this planet witnessing things like disease, poverty and rape because we're good people who are sincere to God and appreciative. If we were good, we'd be in paradise. We would not see poverty or suffering. And even if saw such things in Heaven (as the people in Heaven will see the people in Hell being deprived of good), we would see that it is in fact, Perfection. We would see that it is glorious. Like in a movie, you want the truly evil guy, to truly suffer. You don't want him to killed in his sleep after all the ponzi scheming and raping he did. You want him to suffer. That's what evil beings are good for. It's perfection for evil to suffer. 

We are here because God gave us paradise, asked that we do not zulm (like a rapist zulms, or a tyrant zulms), and we still committed zulm, despite being in paradise. If God did not put us in this situation (where we hear about things like rape, poverty and so on...or perhaps even see them), God would have wronged Itself. There would have been injustice/evil in Existence because God would have wronged Itself. God does not wrong anyone (including Itself). We have an ideal scenario to further look at what it is to be evil, what it is to be deprived of all the good that God gave us, to look at what it is and how valuable it is to be righteous, morally good, honourable, and to choose for ourselves between being good, and being evil. We are here because we are evil. We are racing towards Forgiveness and Mercy. I guarantee you, all woman who are raped, all men who are oppressed, all children that have cancer, all are on the receiving end of what they truly/perfectly deserve. You do not know their souls. You do not why it's perfection for them to be on the receiving end of what they are on the receiving end of. What you do know, is that God is Almighty. Which means, nothing happens independently of God's Will. No child gets cancer without it being fully Willed by God. No man gets oppressed, without it being fully Willed by God. Look at the Children of Israel and what they did after the great trial they faced from their Lord. Look to their transgressions even after being saved. They are described as being God's most preferred. Yet, the sins attributed to them, are not trivial. Or look at David. If the Bible is accurate, he has committed adultery, and he schemed to have a man killed (the husband of the woman he committed adultery with) for unjustified reasons. Yet, David, is portrayed as being near to "Us". He did repent. And he had virtuous traits. But he also suffered. The Bible says that his son was killed as punishment for his actions.

God does not kill a son for his father's sins. God pairs the son with the father, such that the son who's time to die had been reached, is reached in such a manner, that it coincides with causing his father anguish. Anguish which the father perfectly/truly deserved. Again, God isn't just Omnipotent. God is Omniscient. God Handles, All Affairs...to the last atom's weight Perfectly. There are no flaws in Existence. There is no imperfect/evil/injustice in Existence. There are evil/imperfect/unjust beings, but they exist perfectly, because they are getting what they truly/perfectly deserve at all times. Everything exists Perfectly because God is the way God Is. Perfect. If God does not Forgive us and have Mercy on us, then we will be of the losers. We did evil, we deserved to lose paradise. What' the alternative, that evil/injustice occurs in Existence? That God/Existence wrongs Itself by allowing those who commit zulm to get away with it without any genuine repentance and striving towards Forgiveness?

But one harming another cannot be what God WANTS

Harm is harm. It can come in the form of you harming yourself literally (by cutting yourself, or punishing yourself), it can come in the form of you tripping up and hurting yourself, it can come in the form of a natural disaster. That which is harmed, was only harmed because it deserved to be harmed.

If so.. Why blame Satan

If we were good enough, appreciative enough, sincere enough to reason and our genuine sense of good, if we were sincerer to God, Satan would have had no power over us. If you know x is evil, and you still commit x, it does not matter that satan or your parent or your friend or your desire told you to do it. You knew x was evil. You consented/chose to do x. You are to blame. Satan is also to blame. Satan first disobeyed God. Satan first went against reason and a genuine sense of good. Satan was first unappreciative of God, then we followed. Between God and Satan, we chose Satan. But unlike Satan, we did not seek respite so we can fully become evil. We sought Forgiveness and Mercy. Some of us will become good (the ones who genuinely seek Forgiveness...the truly repentant), some of us will remain evil and become more evil perhaps (the unrepentant). God Will fill Hell with Satan and all who follow it (see 38:85, 32:13, 11:119)

Will of God is like a letting a thing to occur with His complete awareness but not coz He wants it to happen

I know what you're saying, but I disagree. God doesn't just casually let a woman be raped or a man be oppressed or a child get cancer. God fully Wills this. I don't think you can peacefully, completely, surrender to God and God's Perfection, if you do not view matters in this way. x was raped, not coincidently, or God simply being ok with this. x was raped because God fully Wanted this. Remember, x fully wanted, and free willingly chose to be such that it wold be perfection for her to be on this earth...with all the consequences that come with it (which includes her being tested, rewarded, punished and so on). For x, either there were possibly other equally effective occurrences or events that could have resulted in x getting what x deserved, or rape was the only act that could deliver to x what x truly deserved. If there were other acts that could have had the same relevant effect of x getting what x deserves, then it doesn't really matter which of these acts occurred. All are equally good. All have the same effect all things considered. This does not take away from the fact that what occurred, was Perfection all things considered. It was not good for the woman, but had it not happened, there would have been evil in Existence. Injustice would have occurred. God would have wronged ITSELF.

If I kill you it my intention and I am responsible for it and not God..but God let the incident to happen.. If He willed He could have stopped being you being killed by me..

Yes. Absolutely. The rapist is a rapist. I use the example of rape because it is so blatantly evil on the one that does it that it's minimally controversial that the one who raped, is clearly evil. You punish the rapist if you see him (provided you don't think he has genuinely and sincerely repented, and that the victim seeks to forgive him rather than punish him...also, provided that he wasn't retaliating because the woman raped him first (very unlikely...I know, but not impossible)). If you do not, you are committing evil. You have seen rape and have done nothing. You have seen God expose you to that which calls you to respond in a fierce and stern manner if you care about goodness and God and a perfect existence, yet you do nothing. You settle for less than a perfect existence. You settle for less than God.

Yes, God wanted the woman to be raped, but God wants you to choose between being good and evil. You know that you would be lacking passion towards goodness by lacking hatred towards evil. To see the rapist rape, and to do nothing, is to display this sort of pathetic character trait. This lacking passion towards God and goodness. What you should not do (and I'm not saying you are doing this), is say God allowed evil to occur. God never allows evil to occur. If you punish the rapist, then God wanted the rapist to be punished and you were just a part of the mechanisms, within which your soul being determined/developed was also a part of the mechanisms. You may not even get a chance to punish the rapist if he dies in his sleep, or trips and breaks his neck. You do the best with what you have. You fight evil internally and externally as best as you can. You are not responsible for anyone other than yourself. You cannot harm or benefit anyone, not even yourself. Except when it comes to yourself, you know when you're being evil, and when you're not being evil. You know when you're being sincere to God, Truth and Goodness, and when you're not. You are responsible for yourself in that God only punishes when you're evil. You don't know the souls of others. You can make educated guesses, but you cannot know for sure. You don't even know what you're capable of, let alone what others are capable of. Leave it to God. But do not be like the people by the sea, who said "shall we feed a people whom God can feed". They were fed by God, they should have been appreciative of this, and so they should have fed others. If x loves God, Justice, Goodness, then x strives in the cause of these things. This includes taking action against rapists (vengeance/retribution if they are unrepentant, compassion if they are repentant). Consoling rape victims (compassion, support etc.).

But pharoa keeping the children of Israel as slaves is not the want / willingness of God.. God wants the children of Israel to be delivered not kept as slaves

Look at the following verse:
And We saved you from the people of Pharaoh, they were afflicting you with the worst punishment; they used to slaughter your children, and rape your women. In that was a great test from your Lord. (2:49)

For the Children of Israel to suffer for even one second more than they deserved, is for Existence to be imperfect. It is for God to be imperfect. God Is Perfect. So the Children of Israel suffered exactly the right amount and in the right way. They were saved, when it was perfection for them to be saved. God could have sent Moses sooner. Moses and his people could have left Egypt sooner. Someone else could have been sent. Pharaoh could have tripped and died. All of Phraoas people could have died in their sleep. The hypothetical possibilities are endless (and God is Omnipotent). But God Coordinates things Perfectly. Such that events that occurred, could not have been Coordinated, Organised, Planned, Coloured in, Connected, Crafted any better. This is all because of God. Anything good is from God, anything evil is from ourselves. Us getting cancer is because It's Perfection for us to get cancer. As in, objectively speaking, it's good that we got cancer (because it's what we truly deserved and it's only fair/just that we get what we deserve) subjectively speaking, it's bad for us, because it causes us harm. It's bad/harmful/evil for us. But It's what we deserve. So it's good all things considered. Justice considered. Perfection considered.

Or God says pharou killed innocent boys

It does not say innocent. God does not harm the innocent. God is not evil. We are.

If those children deserved to be killed God doesn't need to say pharou killed innocent children.. That's bizzare

The Quran states what happened. It is not bizarre. God IS the Mastermind of all Affairs. You cannot will anything, except, if it is also Willed by God (see 81:29)

God guide you and open your eyes if you have told this by mistake.. And if you are right let God guide me to understand  you...

May God guide us both and increase us in goodness.

[nimnimak_11]

This that only harms happens to us if we are guilty is perverse. The child who becomes an orphan is guilty? No, you do not need to be guilty to suffer in whatever way. We do see it in fact that it is not so. Some eveils are earned, some are not. God gives that destiny. Destiny is not punishment but opportunity. Is is our trial to prove ourselves.

Bad choice of examplo on the other hand, a woman that is raped because she deserves it. ¿Where does God purport such a thing? Really perverse.

Salaam

Salam Huruf

If someone suffers (let's say because of cancer, or because they lost their parent, or because they were raped) and they did not deserve to suffer, then Existence is imperfect. Then evil/injustice has occurred in Existence. God is Omnipresent. God Is Existence. To say an innocent person can suffer, is to say God/Existence can be imperfect/evil/unjust. You do not know the soul the orphan or the rape victim. But you do know God/Existence Is Perfect. The latter is a matter of pure reason, the former is an empirical matter. You cannot doubt the dictates of pure reason, but empirical matters are open to interpretation.

I used the example of rape because I think it is a powerful example wherein which we can all agree that the rapist is evil. All acts can be justified. As far as the appearance of things go, rape is one of the hardest (if not the hardest) to justify. Given the passion I see in your reply to my post (wherein which you seem to think what I am proposing is perverse), I strongly recommend that you read my reply to Jkhan. You cannot peacefully surrender if you think Existence to be imperfect. How can you possibly peacefully surrender to God, when you think innocent people can suffer?

[huruf]

No, I never said existence is imperfect, even is rape is undeserved, orphanhood is undeserved, many sufferings are undeserved.
Of ocurse our life is imperfect in the sense tht we deem perfection something we pursue, if everything was erfect we wouldnot pursue anything we would not strive to be BETTER. Only God is perfect.

The fact you miss is that neither life nor existence ends when rape happens or orphanhood happens. Life and existence continue and God continues and God is Justice, Justice is one of His names. THEREFORE, if something unjust happens to anybody, GOD will make something much better for her or him than that which was unjust. Therefore God is just and perfect because he can always make anything worth and because een suffering has meaning. What have done all mothers of the world? All of them are gulty that they should give birth with suffering? No they are not guilty they are the expression of God's rahma, therefore they will and indeed they are many times rewarded in this life, but most certainly in the garden.

Existence from a certain point of view is perfect and Justice prevails, but nowhere it is set that you get the good first and the bad later, it may be the othe way, and life is indeed a learning and experiencing, that is how we evolve nd mke our way back to God.

Salaam

[jkhan]

Peace Brother Nimnimk..

Thank you for your response.. Hope readers would get a rough idea what you try to elaborate..

But in short,  God is never Evil and He does not have that attribute.. Further God is not the one get surprised.. That's not his attribute.. All knower doesnt need to be surprised and no need to apply Evil.. While he knows all things..
Still you didn't get what is Will of God... A word has went forth so He never changes His promise.. Free will of human being and Jin are in fact freedom.. They don't wait God's will to happen but they themselves do.. But knower of all. Things knows that would happen.. Between His will and our freedom there is no connection or interference... Even if God saves a person from a killer.. Coz God does what He wants and the killer does what he wants.. Killer failed God won.. Still he got his freewill but he was not successful in doing it..
God never intent Evil never surprises.. Though God questions like if He doesn't know the answer.. The way He questioned iblees what made you not submit?  Or Jesus.. Did you order people to rake you as god?  God never surprises.. God questiona allowing our freewill..

[jkhan]

Peace... Nimnimk
I am writing to you with interest.. Let me ask this question then.. Prophets were killed by people... In this scenario..
Do you mean to say that prophets, God chosen one to receive His messages and pass to to people for guidance, do in fact deserve to be brutally murdered at the hands of disbelievers and interestingly that was God's plan and that is what God WANTED for those prophets?
If so, why God Himself ask the same people who killed His prophets/messengers, Why did you kill prophets while that is what God wanted?
'Why' should not be a Question from God while Himself wanted His prophets to be brutally murdered by those murderers.. coz they deserved... That's what you say..
That doesn't make any sense...
God knew those prophets will be killed.. Fine.. He knows everything... Between Knowing something merely in advance and Planning something Evil has a huge difference... Don't put the blame on God simply coz He knows everything...
God knows future.. But God is not responsible for what happens coz of freewill of men and jinn. I reiterate.. God is not responsible for Adam betraying..  It was not God's plan.. Not what God wanted.. But He knew..
God knows what is in our hearts and what evil we do plan,  but it doesn't mean God plan the evil that we our dirty hearts plan.. That's totally contrary..
You got it wrong...
Coz God says when they plan, We (God) also plan and We are the best of Planners..
God is instant.. And not keep planning in advance... Coz God reacts to our free will actions..
If God plans every evil act what Human does as you claim, then throwing such people in hell fire to abide in forever is such a shame..
We have been sent here to be fully tested but not accomplish God's evil plan..
God says Musa go with the message PERHAPS they(Firouwn, Haman Qariun etc) would get guidance...
God never do evil...  God only retribute to those who deserved...
God says He didn't wrong you but you wroged yourself...
The one got raped is her destiny coz of another evil persons freewill.. God didn't  wrong her neither the rapist...

Freewill has no harm.. Without freewill there no meaningful life.. Without freewill no test... Without freewill no one deserves Janna.. Without freewill no one deserves to be put in Hell..
God didn't create evil.. But people turned the good things into evil by opting to do what is prohibited  to do...
God is innocent of what men and jinn do