Author Topic: Homosexuality In Islam  (Read 2398 times)

ade_cool

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2020, 08:47:06 PM »
Thank you for your first feedback. I cant even argue about it because i dont even know arabic (only know how to read it)
As for the second one, didn't these people not only raped the men of other nations, they used to practice all kind lewd acts with each other as well ? Lut as could be asking to save his family not only from the attack of the community but also from falling for the temptations of these disgusting acts ?.

Salam Sania,

I know about that "bal" particle from tools (I don't speak Arabic - if somebody is talking to me in Arabic I would not understand). Same as you, I can read Quran in Arabic without understanding (my sunni legacy).

These are the tools that I use for grammar related to verses in Quran:

https://corpus.quran.com/
https://www.personalquran.com

Using those tools, you can know whether the word is noun, verb, pronoun, particle, etc.


Wassalam

Aclon

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2020, 08:12:26 AM »
i'm interested in this particular topic about nature of homosexuality and therefore i kinda wanted to share some non-quranic view about what kind of things we were dealing with. i'm going to warn that i believe in the evolutionary process of life so for those of you who believe in creationism, i already warn you/
 
First and for all, homosexuality is not common for evolutionary perspective. because the purpose of not wanting to be mate by opposite sex in mammal give it disadvantage to preserve life on this earth because the couple can't have any offspring and the means of survival is loss. but even if it's sounds disadvantageous there's still a reason why some animal do it(primate, bird, and some animal capable of building social network). first the research say that homosexual exist when a mother have more children of the same sex, which mean that if you're a male and you have a brother who is straight then the chance you're being gay is increasing, it's called fraternal birth order. most scientist say that there is advantage to this and the purpose is so that it boost overal survival to the sibling without blood spill(because human are social creature). you can find the paper here https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780124201903000302

and now understanding verse that talk about people of lot, there's a lot to it than just homosexuality but i don't know if the context is about rape or is the homosexuality is actually forbidden. so there's some hypothesis that i could make about this
1. homosexuality is not forbidden and lot people are transgressing their limit on their own behavior(rape, thievery, not polite, etc) that lead their own doom
2. the verse talk about how lot people doing will make social instability that can lead to their own doom and gods want to help them but they are refusing because of point 1 and so they spell their own doom.
3. god didn't like homosexuality and also people of lot already beyond saving.

nimnimak_11

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2020, 08:10:16 AM »
What do you derive from the verses which talks about Sodom and Lut? I am someone who has never seen homosexuality as something wrong, immoral, sinful and abnormal. Despite the fact that i have been a sectarian, I have shown my full support to gays and lesbians even though i used to believe homosexuality is haram in Islam. Recently i found an article on homosexuality and it was really so great. And i agreed with it. I want to discuss it with y'all and want to see your input and opinions on that article. Your feedback is much appreciated.

https://lampofislam.wordpress.com/category/same-sex-relationship/

I don't think the Quran explicitly condemns homosexuality. What Lot said was what Lot said. It is not what God said. I spent most of my life believing homosexuality is fine because it involves two consenting adults, and the Quran not explicitly condemning it. I then found out about people who lust after their own family members. They could also be two consenting adults. To me, it is clearly unnatural, impure, filthy, lewd, wrong, for two family members to engage in a relationship of that sort. Consent is not enough for a relationship to be justified. Incest is unnatural because it involves sex with one's own family. Homosexuality is unnatural because it involves sex with one's own gender.

From a physiological point of view, homosexuality is clearly off. If you were to accept homosexuality, what would stop you from accepting brothers and sister sleeping with each other? To me, they are both unnatural. Yes, I think incest to be pure filth whereas with homosexuality, my disgust and hatred is not as potent. But if I'm entirely honest, I think this is because I was brought up in England. I remember watching a Christina Aguilera video wherein which two homosexuals were kissing. It sickened me. But the context in which it was being portrayed (trying to normalise it, or to say you are beautiful no matter what) may have lead me to put unreasonable efforts into viewing homosexuality as other than a disadvantage (if I'm trying to be kind) or a disease (if I'm being realistic).

The difficulty is that there are homosexuals who claim that they had no choice in the matter. How can they derive any non-lewd form of sexual pleasure? As long as they are gay and homosexuality is a form of lewdness, they cannot. This is a disadvantage. A man being born blind or disfigured is also a disadvantage. People must accept what God has cursed them with, just as they must accept what God has blessed them with. God's reasons are always justified because God is perfect. If we had all the premises with regards to why x was born blind or why x became a homosexual, we would conclude that it was 100% justified. We're Omniscient. We don't have all the premises. But we do now God is Perfect. So in God we should trust.

Sania Haque

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2020, 08:40:35 AM »
Let's not forget Incest is still very much allowed in Islam and even in 21st century muslims practice it.

nimnimak_11

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2020, 10:32:10 AM »
Let's not forget Incest is still very much allowed in Islam and even in 21st century muslims practice it.

I don't think it is allowed in Islam.

Incest = sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other.
the crime of having sexual intercourse with a parent, child, sibling, or grandchild.

Some people think cousins should also be included in that list. Some people don't. The Quran prohibits the above. It doesn't prohibit marrying cousins. I don't think we can say, a relationship between the above list, is anywhere near as off-putting, or disgusting, or clearly lewd, as two cousins having a relationship. If my cousin and my aunt had a relationship, I would think they are diseased. If my cousin had a relationship with another one of my cousins, I would not think this.

Mehedi

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2020, 10:27:53 AM »
Salam Alaikum Sania,

You are correct. Lut a.s. tells us through "bal" that his town are not approaching men "besides women" i.e. being gay. This is explained in much more depth in a different article here: https://thefatalfeminist.com/2020/12/07/prophet-lut-a-s-and-bal-%d8%a8%d9%84-the-nahida-s-nisa-tafsir/

The article I'm sharing goes over more Quranic context to prove the point that the one by Siraj Islam doesn't. It also covers some of the counter points some folks have listed in this thread. Its a good read.

ade_cool

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2020, 02:54:32 AM »
Salam Alaikum Sania,

You are correct. Lut a.s. tells us through "bal" that his town are not approaching men "besides women" i.e. being gay. This is explained in much more depth in a different article here: https://thefatalfeminist.com/2020/12/07/prophet-lut-a-s-and-bal-%d8%a8%d9%84-the-nahida-s-nisa-tafsir/

The article I'm sharing goes over more Quranic context to prove the point that the one by Siraj Islam doesn't. It also covers some of the counter points some folks have listed in this thread. Its a good read.

In Quran, "bal" is also used to emphasize (not only to retract). Some examples:

[2:100] Is it that each time they make a pledge, a group of them breaks it? BAL, most of them do not believe.

In 2:100, the "bal" particle does not retract previous statement mentioned in the verse. It emphasizes that most of them indeed do not believe.

The verse 2:100 does not explain that a group of them never breaks a pledge that they made, right?

[7:179] And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes  with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they  did not hear. They are like livestock; BAL, they are even more astray.  These are the unaware ones.

In 7:179, the "bal" particle does not retract previous statement mentioned in the verse. It emphasizes that they are even more astray.

The verse 7:179 does not explain that many of the Jinn and Ins use their hearts to understand, eyes to see, ears to hear, and they are not like livestock, right?

[11:27] The leaders who rejected from among his people said: “We do not see you except as a mortal like us, and we see that only the lowest  among our people who have no opinion have followed you. And  we do not see a thing that makes you better than us; BAL, we think you are liars.”

In 11:27, the "bal" particle does not retract previous statement mentioned in the verse. It emphasizes they even think that Noah is liar.

The verse 11:27 does not explain that those leaders view Noah as more than a mortal, his followers are something, and Noah is better than them, right?

Having shown examples of the usage of "bal" in Quran in which it is used to emphasize, let's ponder on verses related to Lot's people (leaving the "bal" particle untranslated):

[7:80] And Lot, he said to his people: “Do you commit immorality such as none of those of the worlds has surpassed before?”
[7:81] “You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! BAL, you are a transgressing people.”


[26:165] “Do you approach the males of the worlds?”
[26:166] “And you leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? BAL, You are a transgressing people!”


[27:54] And Lot, when he said to his people: “Why do you commit immorality when you can clearly see?”
[27:55] “You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! BAL, you are an ignorant people.”


In those verses, is the "bal" particle used to retract or to emphasize?

youmu33

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2021, 04:41:07 PM »

أَوۡ یُزَوِّجُهُمۡ ذُكۡرَانࣰا وَإِنَـٰثࣰا
[Surah Ash-Shura 50]

Or Pairing them males and females.

Not males OR females, that would indicate then the choice on what to choose. but that is still arguable.
And obviously the AND is not valid if we understand it as every man has to marry a man and a woman.
It is then that the pairing itself is between males and females.

Or Pairing them: males and females
 

19_submission

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2021, 02:12:02 PM »
Peace be upon you!

Do not attempt to walk before you can run. You bear full responsibility for your evaluations. You are obliged to thoughtfully research on any subject before making up your mind.

[17:36] And do not follow what you have no knowledge of. The hearing, the sight and the heart, all these will be questioned for it.

There are quite many opinions regarding this topic. In my opinion, both parties present a reasonable point. However, I would advise you to read arguments from both views. And most importantly, the first and sole source you should derive your final decision from is the Quran.

If I am right, I have seen your posts where you said that you believe in God, but do not know if Islam/Quran is the suitable source for you. Correct me if I am mistaken, I may be thinking of another member in this community. Nevertheless, if it is you, then I would advise you to seek knowledge on more important topics rather than this (if you are not homosexual or the matter specifically addresses you).

By the way, it is not wrong that you support LGBTQ+ and their right to exist and operate freely. Believers should not oppress, because it is worse than murder:

[2:191]... Oppression is indeed worse than murder.

Lastly, I apologise, you will get no direct answer on this topic from me. I have yet not researched this. Thus, I should refrain from issuing any decisions or opinions.
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My Lord, admit me an entrance of truth and let me depart an exit of truth, and grant me from You a supporting authority. 17:80
Peace,
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