Author Topic: Homosexuality In Islam  (Read 2690 times)

jkhan

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2020, 01:34:44 AM »
Well I am 19 and this concept of interpreting Quran according to our own whimps is just not sitting well with me. There are so many people with there own personal interpretation and all of them sound correct. But how can all of them be correct. I have tried reading them, I have tried to follow what i feel is right but the fact that i maybe following something wrong plagues me to no end. This just takes my anxiety to another level.

Well little sister... You are very young.. How fortunate you are that you came a step forward to believe at least that Quran is the ultimate source of guidance not man made fabrication.. At this tender age had I opened my eyes I would have been proud of myself...
Don't worry about everyone's interpretation and translation in English  or in various worldwide languages.. In my mother toung the translation is such a mess.. Don't blame them... They have done their part..
Quran's explanation is in the hands of God... We may read the same quran 1000 times but God only explains to believers it's truth... When God explained then there is no turning back... I experience it...
You know little sister... When I completely read total quran translation 10 years before I told to my self what is in this Quran for people to convert to Islam.. It only made me think that this book is just an ordinary book in very ordinary matters.. Nothing miracle in it to change a person's thought.. But somehow I happened to read again.. And I completed.. And again. And again.. Yeah again.. I did see difference within me... I started questioning to self the social practices and contradiction to quran.   But after sometimes I didn't read complete quran but here and there to confirm various concerns... Somehow I got the picture of Quran.. So whenever one speaks a matter claiming it is in Quran or it is allowed etc etc.. Some verses immediately reminds me.. So..  Be patient.. Keep reading and cultivate.. God recommends to explore Quran... If things are very plain no need to explore... isn't it?  Exploration is required when things are not manifest...
So keep exploring sister...
Why quran has 114 chapters or rather lengthy explanations with repetition of verses.. If rituals are merely life,  one or two pages of Quran is more than enough to explain them.  Namely for salat fasting haj etc and halal and Haram.. But that's not quran...
Quran is beyond that.. Quran drags a person towards God gradually whenever he reads it .. It is like a magnet... It arouses our feelings and make us question.. It ultimately makes us to hunt for truth while we live corrupted world... Truth is hidden in it. .the one who finds the hidden truth in Quran is permanently successful... Rejecting one verse of Quran will never make you close to God.. Coz rejecting a verse is equal to rejecting God's single speach...

Remember well.. To say even hadith is fabrication of human and not from God, one needs to accept only Quran..
You told here to everyone that you started believing in Quran only coz hadith looks illogical... But for hadith followers it is logical.. So you differ from them.. Why you differ?  Coz you have started using your senses and not merely following the ancestors... During this process what you chose may look complicated than what you were before..
Just coz hadith is user friendly and convenient for a life style,  it doesn't mean path is right,  though Quran's way is complicated, it doesn't mean path is wrong...

So dear finally.. True believer will be guided aright by God... For example.. If God ordered only either two or three or five salat in Quran and if a true believer opts the right one,  then guidance is from God.. Coz true believer won't be misguided to pray more or less away from instructions of God.. If he chose the wrong one tgen he can't be believer and guided one. .. God won't guide with wrong option  .that cannot be guidance
So.. You find your path and beg for right path... Don't ever worry about the paths others have taken.. Just remind with Quran to others with your understanding..  Keep exploring.. So you will end up in right path God wills..

"Everyone would have seen the killer how he killed the boy,  but everyone won't depict the incident into words sane as they saw.. They would differ"
So everyone would say we follow Quran and God only knows what they follow...
Save yourself from hell fire.. Coz you can't save anyone else... But you can save yourself by what you choose to do...

tutti_frutti

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2020, 11:32:15 AM »
salam sonia haque

this is my understanding:

homosexuality may be a test on some people only and not others... why not?

some have to struggle everyday to find food and water .. some have lost their whole families ... some are very ill ... some have have been abandoned by their husbands or wives and finish their lives alone ... some are blind aome are deaf some have no limbs ... etc

in His infinite mercy, The God clearly warned us that we will be tested ... and told us that no sould is burdened by more that it can take, that after hardship comes ease, that we mist be patient, that this life is just delusion, that He replies to those who IMPLORE, to remember Him and He will remember us ...

He gave us the answers to our struggles and the hope we need :)

if one loves and fears The God ... one can do anything for The God ...

and frankly i think sexual abstinence is nothing

i am someone who abstains completely and that includes not even thinking about it as per my understanding of a verse that says to avoid indecency (fahisha) of what is concealed and what is evident
so i understand NO dreaming of sex either whether one is hetero or homosexual (however i do not know if that includes dreaming of sex with permissible partner)

having to be abstinent is definately NO excuse for anyone to disbelieve

lot pbuh invited his people to refrain from it .. so i understand if it were a curse lot pbuh would have just left the town without having warned his peoole and invited them to refrain ... so i understand homosexuality is perhaps a test

please do not be fooled by those who say it is permissible and start to find interpretations on the verses where there are none ... i think it was clear that homosexual acts are a very grave sin!

in my opinion, please support them infinitely if they need your help in their faith and lives but do NOT encourage them in the acts and do not tell them it is okay to engage in such acts but rather invite them to refrain ...

Who created death and life to test you which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving (67:2)

we are clearly told this life is test ... please do not apostate and come out of this life as a CHAMPION ! :)

peace :)

reel

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2020, 06:26:48 PM »
No one ever answers me when I ask:
What if you find out your sibling is gay?
How would you feel if you come to know that your sibling’s spouse has been a secret gay all his life because society objected to who he truly is?
By banning marriage for gays, do we not contribute to rise in STDS?
Do we have the right to prevent one from getting the kind of love that heals all sorts of physical pain and illnesses?

The verse about Sodom is talking about rape by straight men. God condones extramarital sex. Many straight people have the misconception that their fake homosexual midnight hour isn't included in that.

Actual homosexual men are not attracted to women. Also they look and behave feminine. Same is true for lesbians. Their body structure is of males.

The whole idea about “lengthy” test is a misconception that suits only mainstream Islam. God has already said those who follow his guidance will not have to grieve. He has literally given us the power to warp reality. Timeline is not linear and no straight person is immune to waking up in the morning inside a homosexual body. Let's be careful.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

jkhan

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2020, 07:18:22 PM »
No one ever answers me when I ask:
What if you find out your sibling is gay?
How would you feel if you come to know that your sibling’s spouse has been a secret gay all his life because society objected to who he truly is?
By banning marriage for gays, do we not contribute to rise in STDS?
Do we have the right to prevent one from getting the kind of love that heals all sorts of physical pain and illnesses?

The verse about Sodom is talking about rape by straight men. God condones extramarital sex. Many straight people have the misconception that their fake homosexual midnight hour isn't included in that.

Actual homosexual men are not attracted to women. Also they look and behave feminine. Same is true for lesbians. Their body structure is of males.

The whole idea about “lengthy” test is a misconception that suits only mainstream Islam. God has already said those who follow his guidance will not have to grieve. He has literally given us the power to warp reality. Timeline is not linear and no straight person is immune to waking up in the morning inside a homosexual body. Let's be careful.

My question is worse than that Reel...
I ask them what if father and son have sex.. Mother and daughter... Just coz they are attracted.. So natural leave them.. No...
Some may claim they don't harm anyone... No one need to harm anyone to do a crime which is in the sight of God is evil...
If good ethic person who lractices idolworship is harming anyone... He is living in his world harmless to anyone coupled with if he is vegetarian... He is innocent... But is he innoect in the eyes of God? 
When Nuh said to his son get into the ship... He loved his son.. So natural.. But It doesn't mean God also loves him... We can't support anything which God is against... That's so vital

Sania Haque

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2020, 10:58:35 PM »
I think I didn't only ask for everyone's opinion, I also asked for the feedback on the article which was shared. The dispute on this topic is going for ages i dont think it's going to go anywhere. That article raised valid points so i wanted to know what others think. Anyways there's no use starting the same old debate which would go nowhere. But to answer your question, is incest actually normal ? Do any organism exhibit incest ? My biology is not that strong and I haven't studied past my 12th standard, but do animals naturally exhibit the tendency to be incestuous ? I dont think any scientist or studies have claimed that incest is natural. Plus doesn't Quran allows incest to some degree. You are allowed to marry your cousins,aunts/uncles ? The only valid argument i have seen from anti LGBTQ+ group is that Quran hasn't described marriage between people of same gender. If we are to take everything literally from the story Lot then we can conclude that Quran allowed lesbianism, because by default what is not forbidden in Quran becomes permissible

ade_cool

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2020, 01:39:58 AM »
What do you derive from the verses which talks about Sodom and Lut? I am someone who has never seen homosexuality as something wrong, immoral, sinful and abnormal. Despite the fact that i have been a sectarian, I have shown my full support to gays and lesbians even though i used to believe homosexuality is haram in Islam. Recently i found an article on homosexuality and it was really so great. And i agreed with it. I want to discuss it with y'all and want to see your input and opinions on that article. Your feedback is much appreciated.

https://lampofislam.wordpress.com/category/same-sex-relationship/

Salam Sania,

My feedbacks on the article:

(1) Usage of "bal" particle

In https://lampofislam.wordpress.com/2017/10/10/the-story-of-lot-condemns-xenophobic-hate-not-homosexual-love/ the author argues that the use of particle "bal" in verses related to Lut's people is supporting his view that it is not about sexual orientation which makes them punished.

This is how the author translated the verses (I highlighted the translation of "bal" particle in bold):

And Lot, when he said to his people: Do you commit an outrage such as no one among the nations has exceeded you therein,/ For you really approach men with desire besides women? NAY, BUT (No, instead,) you are a people who transgress the limits. 7:80-81

Do you approach the males of the nations?/ And you leave what your Sustainer created for you of your mates? NAY, BUT (No, instead,) you are a people hostile, aggressive. 26:165-166

And Lot, when he said to his people: Do you commit an outrage while you see clearly?/ Do you really approach men with desire besides women? NAY, BUT (No, instead,) you are a people who act ignorantly. 27:54-55


I checked the usage of "bal" particle in Quran and I found that "bal" particle is also used to emphasize (not only to retract).

Some examples in Quran (I highlighted the translation of "bal" particle in bold):

[2:100] Is it that each time they make a pledge, a group of them breaks it? Alas, most of them do not believe.

In 2:100, the "bal" particle does not retract previous statement mentioned in the verse. It emphasizes that most of them indeed do not believe.

[7:179] And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes  with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they  did not hear. They are like livestock; no, they are even more astray.  These are the unaware ones.

In 7:179, the "bal" particle does not retract previous statement mentioned in the verse. It emphasizes that they are even more astray.

[11:27] The leaders who rejected from among his people said: “We do not see you except as a mortal like us, and we see that only the lowest  among our people who have no opinion have followed you. And  we do not see a thing that makes you better than us; in fact, we  think you are liars.”

In 11:27, the "bal" particle does not retract previous statement mentioned in the verse. It emphasizes they even think that Noah is liar.

Based on these, the author's argument that the usage of "bal" particle in verses related to Lut's people is supporting his view, is weak. As per examples from Quran, the "bal" particle can also be used to emphasize, which in this case against the author's view.

(2) Assaulting men from other nations

In https://lampofislam.wordpress.com/2018/02/05/lots-people-assaulted-men-from-other-nations/ the author argues that it is about assaulting men from other nations.

Lut prayed asking God to save him and his family. Are Lut and his family from other nations than Lut's people?

[26:165] “Do you approach the males of the worlds?”
[26:166] “And you leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!”
[26:167] They said: “If you do not cease O Lot, you will be among those driven out.”
[26:168] He said: “I am in severe opposition to your acts!”
[26:169] “My Lord, save me and my family from what they do.”



I guess two feedbacks on the articles from me are enough for now :)


Wassalam,

reel

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2020, 03:47:04 AM »
Do any organism exhibit incest ? My biology is not that strong and I haven't studied past my 12th standard, but do animals naturally exhibit the tendency to be incestuous ? I dont think any scientist or studies have claimed that incest is natural. Plus doesn't Quran allows incest to some degree. You are allowed to marry your cousins,aunts/uncles ? The only valid argument i have seen from anti LGBTQ+ group is that Quran hasn't described marriage between people of same gender. If we are to take everything literally from the story Lot then we can conclude that Quran allowed lesbianism, because by default what is not forbidden in Quran becomes permissible

I guess you mistakenly mixed up sectarian culture with Quran. Happens, but this is not a matter of debate for us since God already covered it in:

4:23 Prohibited to you are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your [milk] mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship [born] of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you. And [also prohibited are] the wives of your sons who are from your [own] loins, and that you take [in marriage] two sisters simultaneously, except for what has already occurred. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

My question is worse than that Reel...
I ask them what if father and son have sex.. Mother and daughter... Just coz they are attracted.. So natural leave them.. No...
Some may claim they don't harm anyone... No one need to harm anyone to do a crime which is in the sight of God is evil...
If good ethic person who lractices idolworship is harming anyone... He is living in his world harmless to anyone coupled with if he is vegetarian... He is innocent... But is he innoect in the eyes of God? 
When Nuh said to his son get into the ship... He loved his son.. So natural.. But It doesn't mean God also loves him... We can't support anything which God is against... That's so vital

Umm, when it comes to sex there is more than meets the eye. It isnt all about sinning and getting God angry. Unfortunately, too many out there have been irresponsible with the thing and hence attack anyone who is interested in discussing the truth. I still see Quatum biology as light at the end of the tunnel. Just have to wait for it to become more mainstream.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Sania Haque

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2020, 04:05:04 AM »
Salam Sania,

My feedbacks on the article:

(1) Usage of "bal" particle

In https://lampofislam.wordpress.com/2017/10/10/the-story-of-lot-condemns-xenophobic-hate-not-homosexual-love/ the author argues that the use of particle "bal" in verses related to Lut's people is supporting his view that it is not about sexual orientation which makes them punished.

This is how the author translated the verses (I highlighted the translation of "bal" particle in bold):

And Lot, when he said to his people: Do you commit an outrage such as no one among the nations has exceeded you therein,/ For you really approach men with desire besides women? NAY, BUT (No, instead,) you are a people who transgress the limits. 7:80-81

Do you approach the males of the nations?/ And you leave what your Sustainer created for you of your mates? NAY, BUT (No, instead,) you are a people hostile, aggressive. 26:165-166

And Lot, when he said to his people: Do you commit an outrage while you see clearly?/ Do you really approach men with desire besides women? NAY, BUT (No, instead,) you are a people who act ignorantly. 27:54-55


I checked the usage of "bal" particle in Quran and I found that "bal" particle is also used to emphasize (not only to retract).

Some examples in Quran (I highlighted the translation of "bal" particle in bold):

[2:100] Is it that each time they make a pledge, a group of them breaks it? Alas, most of them do not believe.

In 2:100, the "bal" particle does not retract previous statement mentioned in the verse. It emphasizes that most of them indeed do not believe.

[7:179] And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes  with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they  did not hear. They are like livestock; no, they are even more astray.  These are the unaware ones.

In 7:179, the "bal" particle does not retract previous statement mentioned in the verse. It emphasizes that they are even more astray.

[11:27] The leaders who rejected from among his people said: “We do not see you except as a mortal like us, and we see that only the lowest  among our people who have no opinion have followed you. And  we do not see a thing that makes you better than us; in fact, we  think you are liars.”

In 11:27, the "bal" particle does not retract previous statement mentioned in the verse. It emphasizes they even think that Noah is liar.

Based on these, the author's argument that the usage of "bal" particle in verses related to Lut's people is supporting his view, is weak. As per examples from Quran, the "bal" particle can also be used to emphasize, which in this case against the author's view.

(2) Assaulting men from other nations

In https://lampofislam.wordpress.com/2018/02/05/lots-people-assaulted-men-from-other-nations/ the author argues that it is about assaulting men from other nations.

Lut prayed asking God to save him and his family. Are Lut and his family from other nations than Lut's people?

[26:165] “Do you approach the males of the worlds?”
[26:166] “And you leave what your Lord has created for you of mates? You are an intrusive people!”
[26:167] They said: “If you do not cease O Lot, you will be among those driven out.”
[26:168] He said: “I am in severe opposition to your acts!”
[26:169] “My Lord, save me and my family from what they do.”



I guess two feedbacks on the articles from me are enough for now :)


Wassalam,

Thank you for your first feedback. I cant even argue about it because i dont even know arabic (only know how to read it)
As for the second one, didn't these people not only raped the men of other nations, they used to practice all kind lewd acts with each other as well ? Lut as could be asking to save his family not only from the attack of the community but also from falling for the temptations of these disgusting acts ?.

good logic

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2020, 05:21:10 AM »
Peace All.

Before I comment on the link, I want to highlight a big issue that is not clear to me.
I make a big difference between a homosexual person and GOD s laws that apply to all of us. of except  very few .
 There exist  different types of people including the homosexuals , heterosexuals, bisexuals ...etc
The question for me is two fold:
1-Is the homosexual person condemned/wrong just by having the feeling and inclination towards the same sex human?
2- Can the homosexual person,break GOD s laws if they follow GOD and His message?

Then we can see that we are dealing with two subjects;
1- The person that is different like other differences of other humans in a lot of other things.
2- The act/laws that govern the behaviour of all the different humans including the homosexual.

Here we all have a choice to either follow GOD s laws or ignore and follow our own desires and choices.

For example can we say that the homosexual  does not need to follow GOD s law  of sexual behaviour if they follow Qoran?
Or these laws are for everybody  else but homosexuals?.

 Then we can discuss what Qoran says about sexual behaviour  for all.
Then we come to rights and wrongs and who decides what is right or wrong?

The link does not make this distinction for me.
Of course according to Qoran  we should not say to peaceful/good people  they are not believers or call them or reject them. We treat them the same as any other human.,  .
I have to accept that we are all different and GOD accepts or rejects according to His deep knowledge of who is breaking the laws or not. And GOD Alone is forgiver Merciful even to those who break the laws.
 However GOD has given us a code of conduct ,and sexual conduct is detailed in Qoran, like sex before marriage,adultery,sex with different partners,divorce...etc.

I hear this argument often,may be justified for a lot of people: Are homosexuals not entitled to sex with partners?

This leads to another issue of why are the natural things  set up the way they are for the majority of people by GOD?
 For example
Creation of male and female sex organs.
Anus and mouth and other,, have not got a natural  sexual function.
reproduction and inheritance of genes. only through the cell of both  sex organs.
...etc  This altogether is another subject of deeper reflection .
My view is this :
As humans we have different anomalies/inclinations/ways. We should all respect humans that are peaceful and wish us no harm.
GOD is the judge of the people and will settle our differences.
Those who break GOD s laws the matter is between them and GOD. Those who repent and correct GOD is forgiver most Merciful.
As for "unfortunate" and "rights", I can personally see oppression of all types of people and I can see that a lot of people are deprived of all sorts,including sex through no fault of their own. They can be alone most of their life or disabled orany other type.
GOD created the laws, GOD judges, GOD will settle the matter between all of us.
For me, I will be a hypocrite if I say I follow Qoran and not follow GOD s laws as I understand them.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
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Wakas

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Re: Homosexuality In Islam
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2020, 07:48:17 AM »
Thank you for your first feedback. I cant even argue about it because i dont even know arabic...

Does your Quran say knowledge of Arabic is critical to understand it? Or when checking something in it knowledge of Arabic is critical?

Are you aware of sites like www.StudyQuran.org ? or https://corpus.quran.com ?

This is why I asked you the initial question that I did. It seems to me your approach to Quran is not based on a methodology that would help you filter sound from unsound.

Perhaps this will help you:
http://www.quran434.com/study-method.html


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. My articles

www.studyQuran.org