repentance, absolution

[Fadiva]

Salam everyone,

Here is are 2 translations of  verse 4.17 I wonder if I understood well :

Sahih international :The repentance accepted by Allah is only for those who do wrong in ignorance [or carelessness] and then repent soon after. It is those to whom Allah will turn in forgiveness, and Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

Yusuf Ali: Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy: For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

The verse in arabic:
إِنَّمَا ٱلتَّوْبَةُ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ ٱلسُّوٓءَ بِجَهَٰلَةٍ ثُمَّ يَتُوبُونَ مِن قَرِيبٍ فَأُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ يَتُوبُ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا 

So the repentance is only accepted when someone commit a sin (by evil i wonder if it includes all sins) without knowing it is bad and repent soon after.
So he have to repent immediatly after he realized he has done evil.
But it can take more or less time for one to realize it, right ?

I can see examples of people, who commit sins, know there are sins or ignore the warns of some believers. At the moment maybe they didn't realized the serouisness of their deeds or were somehow not "ready" .

I wonder with the verse above if their deeds will be forgiven, if their repentance will be accepted. Seems like that no. But i could be wrong.

I give a few example here to illustrate:

The man (or woman) who commits adultery and did it several times and knew that it was bad but only repented years laters. He committed it not to challenge God but because of weakness or wasn't able to stop himself ( or not willing to not do it at that time).

The woman who had seen someone (a wizard ?) in order to make something to keep her husband, thinking that it was a good thing. I heard stories like this in Morrocco. What about her repentance ?

To sump up: There is no way to repent unless we do evil by ignorance, isn't it.
So even one has been accorded by Allah a life of 70 years  (for example) but did "evil" not by ignorance in his life and repented after, he won't be forgiven.
example: He committed sins from 20 to 50, repented at 50 and has 20 years left before he dies.

I believed before I read this verse, that the sincere repentances were accepted if done before agonizing, when we are about to die or a few times before dying. But didn't thought that those you did sins thiking they can do all sins they want and just need to "hajj" or repented to be forgiven: I means those who somehow "plays" or are premeditating or calculating.

I just wonder if there is here (in this verse) a degree of seriousness to be take, the real attention of the people ( really bad or "just" negligent or carefree).

I noticed in the translations that some translators added "carelessness" or " folishness" as if the word translated by "ignorance" encompasses those meanings.

Can someone bring more details ? (by using verses and their knolewdge in arabic).

May the God guide us.

[jkhan]

Salam everyone,

Here is are 2 translations of  verse 4.17 I wonder if I understood well :

Sahih international :The repentance accepted by Allah is only for those who do wrong in ignorance [or carelessness] and then repent soon after. It is those to whom Allah will turn in forgiveness, and Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

Yusuf Ali: Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy: For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

The verse in arabic:
إِنَّمَا ٱلتَّوْبَةُ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ ٱلسُّوٓءَ بِجَهَٰلَةٍ ثُمَّ يَتُوبُونَ مِن قَرِيبٍ فَأُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ يَتُوبُ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَانَ ٱللَّهُ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا 

So the repentance is only accepted when someone commit a sin (by evil i wonder if it includes all sins) without knowing it is bad and repent soon after.
So he have to repent immediatly after he realized he has done evil.
But it can take more or less time for one to realize it, right ?

I can see examples of people, who commit sins, know there are sins or ignore the warns of some believers. At the moment maybe they didn't realized the serouisness of their deeds or were somehow not "ready" .

I wonder with the verse above if their deeds will be forgiven, if their repentance will be accepted. Seems like that no. But i could be wrong.

I give a few example here to illustrate:

The man (or woman) who commits adultery and did it several times and knew that it was bad but only repented years laters. He committed it not to challenge God but because of weakness or wasn't able to stop himself ( or not willing to not do it at that time).

The woman who had seen someone (a wizard ?) in order to make something to keep her husband, thinking that it was a good thing. I heard stories like this in Morrocco. What about her repentance ?

To sump up: There is no way to repent unless we do evil by ignorance, isn't it.
So even one has been accorded by Allah a life of 70 years  (for example) but did "evil" not by ignorance in his life and repented after, he won't be forgiven.
example: He committed sins from 20 to 50, repented at 50 and has 20 years left before he dies.

I believed before I read this verse, that the sincere repentances were accepted if done before agonizing, when we are about to die or a few times before dying. But didn't thought that those you did sins thiking they can do all sins they want and just need to "hajj" or repented to be forgiven: I means those who somehow "plays" or are premeditating or calculating.

I just wonder if there is here (in this verse) a degree of seriousness to be take, the real attention of the people ( really bad or "just" negligent or carefree).

I noticed in the translations that some translators added "carelessness" or " folishness" as if the word translated by "ignorance" encompasses those meanings.

Can someone bring more details ? (by using verses and their knolewdge in arabic).

May the God guide us.

Peace Fadiva..

Just I responded a similar question from one member in PM...
So raise his question and connect to you concern..

What do you think of verse 4:137? Do you think it can happen in a very short period of time all those changes...
Will not Allah forgive the same mistake twice?
Just read the verse and let me know

[good logic]

My view in the context of 4:17 is that this repentance is about something already programmed in us as "sin" like adultery( which is the subject here).
Which one does not know by instinct that adultery is not a sin? Or stealing? etc..

However it is implied here that one can do this sin " BiJahalatin- in ignorance-" how?
Well "Jahala" can mean here "The sense of reality has gone at that moment".The body desire has closed the mind.
Min Karib one will realise soon after don t they? They need to repent the moment your body regains its proper senses and your guilt is reminding you.. Not ignore as nothing has happened or keep doing it. That is if this is a one off incident.

Only by repenting straight after will one in reality is seeking forgiveness with honesty and sincerity. Any other decision means one is not really sorry or intending to go back to be straight.

Similarly with other sins known instinctively,one needs to repent quickly and try their best to avoid repeats. Not wait months  or years or ignores altogether until they near their death beds.Hence:
Repentance is acceptable by God from those who fall in sin out of ignorance, then repent immediately thereafter. God redeems them. God is Omniscient, Most Wise.
GOD bless you.
Peace..

[Fadiva]

Peace Fadiva..

Just I responded a similar question from one member in PM...
So raise his question and connect to you concern..

What do you think of verse 4:137? Do you think it can happen in a very short period of time all those changes...
Will not Allah forgive the same mistake twice?
Just read the verse and let me know

Peace jkhan,

4.137
Sahih International: Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way.

My understanding; Its about the unbelievers, the rejectors . There is a limit in disbelief: increase in disbelief. Allah forgives several times but someone who go to far in disbelief won't be guided nor forgiven.

[jkhan]

My view in the context of 4:17 is that this repentance is about something already programmed in us as "sin" like adultery( which is the subject here).
Which one does not know by instinct that adultery is not a sin? Or stealing? etc..

However it is implied here that one can do this sin " BiJahalatin- in ignorance-" how?
Well "Jahala" can mean here "The sense of reality has gone at that moment".The body desire has closed the mind.
Min Karib one will realise soon after don t they? They need to repent the moment your body regains its proper senses and your guilt is reminding you.. Not ignore as nothing has happened or keep doing it. That is if this is a one off incident.

Only by repenting straight after will one in reality is seeking forgiveness with honesty and sincerity. Any other decision means one is not really sorry or intending to go back to be straight.

Similarly with other sins known instinctively,one needs to repent quickly and try their best to avoid repeats. Not wait months  or years or ignores altogether until they near their death beds.Hence:
Repentance is acceptable by God from those who fall in sin out of ignorance, then repent immediately thereafter. God redeems them. God is Omniscient, Most Wise.
GOD bless you.
Peace..

Peace..
Well constructed response in my view..
But if dig deep in this topic we may clarify as under..
Let's separate the forgiveness of God into two...
Forgiveness towards Believers and forgiveness to disbelievers ... These in fact varies in my understanding...

Suppose if you are a believer in the sight of God and you happen to commit any crime of severity in your negligence or ignorance then if you get out of that shackle and and realize the sin,  then you need to repent.. Realizing itself a one step towards repentance... So once you repented God will,  He forgives..
But certain sins or crimes you may not realize for months or years or ages due to lack of evidence etc.. That means you didn't have the opportunity to come to realization point before repentance.. So the point of knowing the reality of our sins is vital to repent and not the time it takes to repent... So all those period is negligence... 
That's why believers should ask for forgiveness for the sins of obvious and unknown and also from ignorance .. I hope there is a Quran verse as well..
For instant realization best example is Prophet Dawud when he realized his decision...  Delayed realization best example is sons of Yakub.. They were Believers.. Weren't they?

Forgiveness towards Disbelievers...
What do you think? Disbelievers don't realize their crime or sins instantly when they do them in negligence or ignorance while still remain as disbelievers.. It is absolutely human nature.. For example a disbeliever may steal or use filthy words on parents.. But he may also realize what he did is wrong and may approach for forgiveness towards parents etc.. But we don't know God forgave him or not coz he didn't ask forgiveness from God.. Human can forgive one another and it doesn't mean God also forgives.. Court may decide and forgive a murderer.. Will God do same?

Delayed forgiveness for Disbelievers.. Suppose a disbeliever keep on doing all the sins and crimes.. Never realized and repented though he knew it is sin at least in the sight of society.. But at certain age he changes and becomes a believer... He can only become a believer in the sight of God if God forgives his past.. That's my understanding.. So this new believer may or may not know and remember all what he did for ages.. And he can't come to a realization as well... Coz that's unnatural.. All he realized is he was on a wrong path.. And he chose right path now for future.. He does deserve forgiveness.. For example, was queen Sheeba a mushrik?  According to hud hud she was.. So she realized.. What age she was is unknown..

So,  in my thorough understanding God forgives all sins even Shirq if realized in time and become a believer and never repeats the Shirq intermittently..  Are Muhamed and companions Muslim initially?.. No.. God says Muhamed was a  ummi/ gentile Prophet so does his companions plus they were in the brink of hell fire... Didn't Allah forgive them and guided.. Ibrahim said star is my Lord,  moon is my Lord..etc.. Was he a mushrik? No.. He never accepted them but only guessing in ignorance .. He realized and found the guidance..
Life span is key to realize everything and also to discard everything.. Thus accepting or rejecting.   Never die except as a Muslim doesn't mean at the edge of death like king Pharaoh died accepting God. .. But it doesn't necessarily mean from birth or from young age as well.. But within life time and being able to live considerable amount of time as a believer to do good things before death.. To deserve Janna need good deeds while being a believer.. Isn't it?
King pharoa was a mushrik definitely coz he himself claimed god and also he had his deities.. But God didn't waste time sending musa and harun with verses and signs.. But had he accepted God would have forgiven.. If God has no intention of forgiving king Pharaoh if he accepted, there is no need to send Messengers with guidance and test him..

So forgiveness is God's attribute only to those who deserve..

[Fadiva]

Peace good logic,

I quote you :

"However it is implied here that one can do this sin " BiJahalatin- in ignorance-" how?
Well "Jahala" can mean here "The sense of reality has gone at that moment".The body desire has closed the mind.
Min Karib one will realise soon after don t they? They need to repent the moment your body regains its proper senses and your guilt is reminding you.. Not ignore as nothing has happened or keep doing it. That is if this is a one off incident

inquote.

Tell me if I understood you:
You mean that at the moment of the sin, one can lose the sense of reallity . Jahala can be the lost of the sense of reallity here, translated by "ignorance".

[good logic]

I cannot see how anyone can commit adultery and not know clearly they will commit a sin if they go ahead with it.
So what is "jahala" in this case in your opinion?

Yes to me, it can only mean they made the mistake under influence of the desire and absence of reason.which is one kind of -Jahala- . in this context and subject.
It cannot be   Jahala  "ignorance" of adultery is a sin.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[jkhan]

Peace good logic,

I quote you :

"However it is implied here that one can do this sin " BiJahalatin- in ignorance-" how?
Well "Jahala" can mean here "The sense of reality has gone at that moment".The body desire has closed the mind.
Min Karib one will realise soon after don t they? They need to repent the moment your body regains its proper senses and your guilt is reminding you.. Not ignore as nothing has happened or keep doing it. That is if this is a one off incident

inquote.

Tell me if I understood you:
You mean that at the moment of the sin, one can lose the sense of reallity . Jahala can be the lost of the sense of reallity here, translated by "ignorance".

Peace sister...

Just read all jahal  verses in Quran and ponder deeply how it is applied practically... You will never go wrong in understanding it... By the way dictionary meaning of ignorance is "lack of knowledge or information" ... Let is know what suits most fir jahal verses in your opinion  ... We all learn..

That's why I never blame any translation... I really appreciate them all.. If one wait for understanding of Quran comprehensively there won't be any translated quran available... They all translated within their knowledge.. They can't guide though.. God guides.. God explains.. Even I don't blame those who translated according to hadith I don't blame... Coz they believe hadith so that influenced them to translate thus... But everyone knows who reads a translated quran this is not original words of God... So it is so simple he or she must approach God for guidance... But without translation of any nature.. I am zero... Even a true believer with his all effort translated quran,  does it mean he is right.. No... Take what is right what you feel is right... After all ..everyone translate with their own understanding and everyone blames with their own understanding... So.. Let the translation remain as it is.. Let people find a path..

Note... Arabs don't need translation and it doesn't mean they all accept the same way the entire quran... Do they?  That's what happens when translated.. The one who knows Arabic only translate but why difference in every translation... So don't blame... I don't tell you this Fadiva.. But to those who blame... Hope they get it..

[jkhan]

Peace jkhan,

4.137
Sahih International: Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way.

My understanding; Its about the unbelievers, the rejectors . There is a limit in disbelief: increase in disbelief. Allah forgives several times but someone who go to far in disbelief won't be guided nor forgiven.

It is not merely about those who disbelieve.. Isn't it?
But my question is the time period in one's life to go through all the stages... To become a believer first up.. Then to become disbeliever.. Ditto... And to to end up disblievers and increase in it.. You need lot of time... To believe from disbelief one must go through so much time and incidents and further God to accept him as believer he must have come on right track from disbelief... All these lengthy process... So God forgives at any stage but if he remains in disbelief and increase that's unfortunate.. Coz it is his last decision to remain in disbelief and finish life span...

So to sum up.. Once a believer can end up disbliever...once a disbliever can end up believer... His life span will decide..

[jkhan]

Let me make it further simplified ...deeply ponder below verse... Those who believe, once could have been disbeliever if not all... They now approached as believers.. God advise to SAY.. Mercy of God + wrong out of ignorance + Repent  +  reform / correct himself... They didn't come to (Muhamed probably) as soon as they did a wrong out of ignorance ... This is connected with their past and future... They would have spent good chunk of their life in sheer ignorance..

6:54 "And when those come to you who believe in Our verses, say, "Peace be upon you. Your Lord has decreed upon Himself mercy: that any of you who does wrong out of ignorance and then repents after that and corrects himself - indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful."


Further.. Realizing and  repenting seems not sufficient... But need to reform / correct... It takes time... For instance if one had sex in intoxication with a prostitute... Then he may realize the other day when he is back on normal mind... He may repent instantly... Fine... But is it enough? 
After couple of years suppose he got intoxicated or not even intoxicated,  just fell in love of a beautiful girl and went up to the extent of having sex... Has he reformed?  He repented truly in his first instance... But he is repeating in ignorance... Does it mean he can't realize now and repent.. Yes he can but he needs to reform / correct before it is too late during the course of life span.. Same for Fadiva example of woman resorting to a wizard... She may go as long as she wants.. But if she became a believer then she needs to think what she does right or wrong.. Suppose she became a believer and practices everythung fine, but she still has the habit of going to a wizard whenever she is having an issue... No-one can be a good believer still being ignorant  in life continuously.. That's impossible.. 12:89..in fact we should seek protection from being ignorant 28:55

Best verse probably you will grasp what jahal is 49:6 " O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful"  or even verse 2:273

People in general is not ignorant...  But what they decide / react to a situation make them ignorant.. In 49:6 if the people thoroughly investigate and verify the information then decide they are not jahal (ignorant)...  But if they quickly react then they are ignorant if the information or act is wrong...

1...Our quick reaction to wrong option is ignorance in some cases...

2...In some cases, our wrong selection of path neglecting the manifest straight path is ignorance out of lack of knowledge .

Ignorance is our choice... Ignorance is not coz having no education or knowledge but what he chooses.. As God says in 6:35, 11:46"... Never be of the ignorant"

Note: compare foolishness verses with ignorant verses as well for further consideration..