Author Topic: Can idolatry be more than mere worshipping?  (Read 635 times)

mercytv

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma +0/-0
Can idolatry be more than mere worshipping?
« on: November 29, 2020, 11:21:54 AM »
Sam Gerrans has the view that idolatry is more than just the serving of a rock being but to give purpose to anything other than god. This could mean food can be a type of god as if you are feeling down/depressed you run to it to escape the feeling of depression instead of running to god. My response to this would be, wouldn't that make nearly all the population idol worshippers in a sense? I mean most people are glued to their screen day & night watching entertainment and passing time. If this is true than according to the Quran the destination of the idolater is the fire, meaning most of the people you've ever come across is a resident of the fire. If this is true and all how can I serve god 16 hours a day?

mercytv

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma +0/-0
Re: Can idolatry be more than mere worshipping?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2020, 11:41:18 AM »
I'm not blind following, my thoughts on life, purpose and the system being build against humanity by the elite go hand in hand. I'm just asking people who've read the Quran on this site with a fine toothcomb if there are any verses showing this being a reality. I've come across a few verses not long ago that say things about this, " Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ? Then will you not be reminded? And they say, "There is not but our worldly life; we die and live, and nothing destroys us except time." And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming. " (45:23-24)

good logic

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 5455
  • Karma +4/-1
Re: Can idolatry be more than mere worshipping?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2020, 12:39:37 PM »
Peace. mercytv
Here are some verses about what shirk could be:
1. ONE'S OWN EGO AND DESIRE AS AN IDOL (25:43)
2. INTERCESSORS AS IDOLS (10:18)
3.  TAKING  SAINTS AND PROPHETS AS IDOLS (3:79‐80, 39:3, 7:194, 16:20‐21, 17:56‐57, 18:102)
4. TAKING JINNS AS IDOLS (6:100); SATAN AS IDOL (4:117)
5. PROPERTY, GOODS AND ASSETS AS IDOLS (18:34‐44)
6. HOLDING SOURCES (BOOKS) OTHER AS IDOLS (6:19, 68:36‐38)
7. RELIGIOUS LEADERS, SCHOLARS AND REVERED PERSONALITIES AS IDOLS (9:31)
8. HYPOCRISY AS HIDDEN IDOL (2:165, 4:142, 9:67, 63:4)

Believing /Relying on...that any other power/thing besides GOD Alone can harm us or benefit us is shirk..
Basically the only authority and the number priority in life should be  GOD . To follow what GOD has revealed for us-His message-.

The majority of those who believe in God do not do so without committing idol worship.
وَما يُؤمِنُ أَكثَرُهُم بِاللَّهِ إِلّا وَهُم مُشرِكونَ
GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1345
  • Karma +4/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can idolatry be more than mere worshipping?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2020, 07:26:45 PM »
Sam Gerrans has the view that idolatry is more than just the serving of a rock being but to give purpose to anything other than god. This could mean food can be a type of god as if you are feeling down/depressed you run to it to escape the feeling of depression instead of running to god. My response to this would be, wouldn't that make nearly all the population idol worshippers in a sense? I mean most people are glued to their screen day & night watching entertainment and passing time. If this is true than according to the Quran the destination of the idolater is the fire, meaning most of the people you've ever come across is a resident of the fire. If this is true and all how can I serve god 16 hours a day?
7:33 "Say, "My Lord has only forbidden immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed - and sin, and oppression without right, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down authority, and that you say about Allah that which you do not know"

I just brought the above verse to give a rough idea what association with God anything means...

Dear Mercytv...
I don't know what Sam Garrens stated in black and white but you twisted by taking every action of human being as association with God...

To be clear... Every crime,  every evil act,  every conduct which is against God teaching is not association with God another shai (thing)...

For example.. If one kills another innocent person, he has not associated with God another.. Likewise you can take many examples from life...

Remember well,  God says He forgives every thing if He really wanted but not association with Him anything.. It is pretty obvious by that shirk is a particular single act but could be performed in various ways... In my thorough knowledge to associate you need another thing(most probably physical or object)...  You can't associate with one if you don't choose another in its place...

It is not easy to bring every shirk verses here and elaborate.. Compare all verses gradually.. That will clarify if anyone has any doubt...

6:19" Say, "What thing is greatest in testimony?" Say, " Allah is witness between me and you. And this Qur'an was revealed to me that I may warn you thereby and whomever it reaches. Do you [truly] testify that with Allah there are other deities?" Say, "I will not testify [with you]." Say, "Indeed, He is but one God, and indeed, I am free of what you associate [with Him]"

By above verse,  it may be very clear that shai(anything) in previous verse is in fact god other than God..
They may take any living or dead thing or any object as god.. 

No one is Mushrik until he associate with God another thing which in fact is his deity ultimately..

Is Christian a mushrik? Or Jew or Muslim or Hindu... No one is Mushrik as long as they don't associate with God another thing..
Take look at the below verse..

5:82 "You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allah; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant."

So Christians are closer and not the mushrik..

But God says those who take Jesus as god in fact Mushrik(coz associated with God, Jesus) ... Now most of Christians do take Jesus as Lord... So literally those Christians are Mushrik ...

Likewise...in every community as long as they don't associate with God anything they are safe.. And if God will they will be forgiven...

To summarize..  Every action of evil is not association with God... But with intent taking the place of God by another is association or common language idolatry...
6:121 may clarify any doubt... It is not the issue of eating but obeying SATAN and he becomes your Lord.. Here OBEY with intent instead of God another thing makes the difference.. You can obey anyone in life.. No harm... But replacing God and obey another is association (shirk) ...
In general life.. If one kidnapped his son and if he approach to a mighty in the society and kneel down and say you can only save my child,  pls help me...  Definitely in this scenario his god is non other but that mighty person... Association is replacing God with another... That's it...

Jafar

  • Wise One / Burnout
  • *****
  • Posts: 4115
  • Karma +111/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can idolatry be more than mere worshipping?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2020, 08:34:36 PM »
Sam Gerrans has the view that idolatry is more than just the serving of a rock being but to give purpose to anything other than god.

Idolatry means putting something to a pedestal.
When we put something as 'superior' (on pedestal) we will put the other things as 'inferior'.
We do that to justify the thing(s) that we have declared/belief/professed to be superior.

- When we put ourselves as superior we will see other people as inferior.
- When we put our religion as superior we will see other religions as inferior.
- When we put our holy books/places/items as superior we will see other books/places/items as inferior.
- When we put our race as superior we will see other races as inferior.
- When we put our ethnicity as superior we will see other ethnicities as inferior.
- When we put our nationality as superior we will see other nationalities as inferior.
- When we put our <<put anything that you've identified yourself with>> as superior we will see other <<things that you do not identify yourself with>> as inferior.

It might be 'harmless' at first, but it's the 'trigger' of many other actions that might be harmful.

All the things that you are identifying yourself with, including the imagery that you see when you see yourself in front of the mirror will deteriorate until at one time it will cease to exist. 
Thus when you are 'too attached' to the things you've identified yourself with, you will have 'a hard time' to accept and let it go.
Until you're able to 'let it go' you will be in the state of 'suffering'.

So nobody else put you into the state of 'suffering' other than your own self.
How long is the 'suffering'?
It truly depends on your own self, it will last until the time that you will be able to 'let it go'.

Putting Things To A Pedestal, Hans Wilhelm
https://youtu.be/WLvgFNHIv8s?t=217

The infinite creator however does not have a beginning thus it has no end thus it will not cease to exist.
As time and space are among the creation.
Actually all that truly exist is only The infinite creator.

Fadiva

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Can idolatry be more than mere worshipping?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2020, 03:11:32 AM »
7:33 "Say, "My Lord has only forbidden immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed - and sin, and oppression without right, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down authority, and that you say about Allah that which you do not know"

I just brought the above verse to give a rough idea what association with God anything means...

Dear Mercytv...
I don't know what Sam Garrens stated in black and white but you twisted by taking every action of human being as association with God...

To be clear... Every crime,  every evil act,  every conduct which is against God teaching is not association with God another shai (thing)...

For example.. If one kills another innocent person, he has not associated with God another.. Likewise you can take many examples from life...

Remember well,  God says He forgives every thing if He really wanted but not association with Him anything.. It is pretty obvious by that shirk is a particular single act but could be performed in various ways... In my thorough knowledge to associate you need another thing(most probably physical or object)...  You can't associate with one if you don't choose another in its place...

It is not easy to bring every shirk verses here and elaborate.. Compare all verses gradually.. That will clarify if anyone has any doubt...

6:19" Say, "What thing is greatest in testimony?" Say, " Allah is witness between me and you. And this Qur'an was revealed to me that I may warn you thereby and whomever it reaches. Do you [truly] testify that with Allah there are other deities?" Say, "I will not testify [with you]." Say, "Indeed, He is but one God, and indeed, I am free of what you associate [with Him]"

By above verse,  it may be very clear that shai(anything) in previous verse is in fact god other than God..
They may take any living or dead thing or any object as god.. 

No one is Mushrik until he associate with God another thing which in fact is his deity ultimately..

Is Christian a mushrik? Or Jew or Muslim or Hindu... No one is Mushrik as long as they don't associate with God another thing..
Take look at the below verse..

5:82 "You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allah; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant."

So Christians are closer and not the mushrik..

But God says those who take Jesus as god in fact Mushrik(coz associated with God, Jesus) ... Now most of Christians do take Jesus as Lord... So literally those Christians are Mushrik ...

Likewise...in every community as long as they don't associate with God anything they are safe.. And if God will they will be forgiven...

To summarize..  Every action of evil is not association with God... But with intent taking the place of God by another is association or common language idolatry...
6:121 may clarify any doubt... It is not the issue of eating but obeying SATAN and he becomes your Lord.. Here OBEY with intent instead of God another thing makes the difference.. You can obey anyone in life.. No harm... But replacing God and obey another is association (shirk) ...
In general life.. If one kidnapped his son and if he approach to a mighty in the society and kneel down and say you can only save my child,  pls help me...  Definitely in this scenario his god is non other but that mighty person... Association is replacing God with another... That's it...

Salam jkhan,

Like always, I talking with my understanding at the moment:

It's not only replacing God with another, it is also having onother god with God. Two gods or more.
And we have to know the limits and it isn't obvious for everyone. In a verse we can read that some people will say they where not mushrik while they actually were.
Some people don't know they are mushrik.

Maybe some people here think (I have read this from one or maybe more than one) that the sunni are mushrik. If true, they don't realize it.

May Allah guides us .

People can mistaken and be lost or "blind".

jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1345
  • Karma +4/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can idolatry be more than mere worshipping?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2020, 03:52:55 AM »
Salam jkhan,

Like always, I talking with my understanding at the moment:

It's not only replacing God with another, it is also having onother god with God. Two gods or more.
And we have to know the limits and it isn't obvious for everyone. In a verse we can read that some people will say they where not mushrik while they actually were.
Some people don't know they are mushrik.

Maybe some people here think (I have read this from one or maybe more than one) that the sunni are mushrik. If true, they don't realize it.

May Allah guides us .

People can mistaken and be lost or "blind".

I know that people will say in the day of ressurection we were not among Mushrik My Lord...
That's so pathetic. isn't it?
That group of people only can be those who believed in one God but never accepted one God in their action in life.. Correct me if I found weird...

Regarding your point of "not only replacing God with another but having other god/s with God as well.."

Let me clarify... Once you have taken another god/s with God,  it is literally replaced the status of God or God to another..
For example one believe in One God... At the same time he accepts all what his scholar/s says regardless of what God says or neglecting what God says...so in the end all he followed in his entire life was his scholar/s.. So they were his gods..  So did he replace his God or not?  True God was just lip service for him.. But his true god/s were scholars...
That's why I say once taken another in place of 'A' ( i.e. B or C etc instead of A then A has no place literally.. Originally 'A' is replaced by others though he thinks 'A' is still in the list)
But in the case of genuine replacement.. For example..  One who leave God purposely and knowingly and take idols or deities or saints etc as god/s.. These are manifest cases we can call them Mushrik... Coz their practice and actions depict them who they are....  Like God repeatedly call within Quran as Mushrikun ... They don't accept God at all. But they accept god/s etc as their Lord..

In both the above instances, God is replaced by another... It means they associated true God.. If further simplified,  you can put this way.. God's place is knowingly or unknowingly well taken by another thing/person etc..


Fadiva

  • Beginner/Inquirer
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Karma +0/-0
  • Gender: Female
Re: Can idolatry be more than mere worshipping?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2020, 06:57:30 AM »
Peace Jkhan,

I think I understand what you mean.
There is nothing equal to the God. If one gives an equal it's like replacing God.
But in some way, some people think that the God is the most powerful but attribute some power to other thing that don't have power.
They don't think well (my understanding from some verses).
and there are those who forbide what Allah didn't forbide, in the following verse there are those who associate:

6.148
Sahih International: Those who associated with Allah will say, "If Allah had willed, we would not have associated [anything] and neither would our fathers, nor would we have prohibited anything." Likewise did those before deny until they tasted Our punishment. Say, "Do you have any knowledge that you can produce for us? You follow not except assumption, and you are not but falsifying."

16.35
Sahih International: And those who associate others with Allah say, "If Allah had willed, we would not have worshipped anything other than Him, neither we nor our fathers, nor would we have forbidden anything through other than Him." Thus did those do before them. So is there upon the messengers except [the duty of] clear notification?

Somehow they are remplacing God, we can think that or they are ruling with God.



jkhan

  • Advanced Truth Seeker
  • ****
  • Posts: 1345
  • Karma +4/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Can idolatry be more than mere worshipping?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2020, 07:20:24 AM »
Peace Jkhan,

I think I understand what you mean.
There is nothing equal to the God. If one gives an equal it's like replacing God.
But in some way, some people think that the God is the most powerful but attribute some power to other thing that don't have power.
They don't think well (my understanding from some verses).
and there are those who forbide what Allah didn't forbide, in the following verse there are those who associate:

6.148
Sahih International: Those who associated with Allah will say, "If Allah had willed, we would not have associated [anything] and neither would our fathers, nor would we have prohibited anything." Likewise did those before deny until they tasted Our punishment. Say, "Do you have any knowledge that you can produce for us? You follow not except assumption, and you are not but falsifying."

16.35
Sahih International: And those who associate others with Allah say, "If Allah had willed, we would not have worshipped anything other than Him, neither we nor our fathers, nor would we have forbidden anything through other than Him." Thus did those do before them. So is there upon the messengers except [the duty of] clear notification?

Somehow they are remplacing God, we can think that or they are ruling with God.

You are right... So simple as that..